Now that New GM is aborning, does Toyota feel obliged to become old GM? Seriously. I’ll forgo the recap (feel free to discuss this amongst yourselves) and get straight to the latest ill-advised Toyota: the new Lexus HS250. Yes, they’re right: they’ll sell 25,000 of the suited and booted Prius clones in the first year (which says bad, bad things about the Volt’s prospects BTW). And I’m sure the HS’s hybrid powertrain will kick ass, ’cause the Lexus LS 600hL is a sweet motor. But why are these Lexus guys constantly chasing volume, in a Cadillac kinda way? And if you think I’m just putting the hate on ToMoCo (Death Watch transference?), consider the fact that the group vice president of the Lexus Division for Toyota North America is seeing lights at the end of tunnel—just like the federal teat suckling infernal optimists over in Detroit.
“We feel like we’ve hit the bottom in the last three to four weeks,” Mark Templin told Reuters. Just for fun he also predicted the US market would start a gradual recovery in the back end of ’09, with total US new car sales topping 10 million units. “People are feeling better about the economy, and our dealers are asking for more cars. That’s a good sign,” Templin said.
Yup. That’s one.
Why do you find such attempts/targeting ridiculous?
The HS250 is unapologetically a lexus-ized Pious. The Pious is a strong seller, especially to the wealthier, lexus demographic.
Think of it rather than Toyota expecting to sell 25K HS250s, they said “We expected to sell 25K of the ultra-luxury trim Prius”, and nobody would blink twice.
As gas in the bay area is once again kissing $3/gallon…
they’ll sell 25k of the suited and booted Prius clones in the first year
How is it a “clone” of the Prius other than having a 4 cylinder ICE and using Synergy Drive? My understanding is that they don’t share body parts or mechanicals. Am I mistaken?
Standard engine on a C230 a couple years ago had no more power than this vehicle does.
Maybe some people want brand cachet and a little green cachet, and don’t want to drop $60K+ to get something that pulls 25-28 mpg (like the GS hybrid or the Benz diesel SUV).
Is this a worse problem then the re-branding of Camrys and jacked up Camry station wagons? Some Lexus customers supposedly want their cars to be smooth and quiet, two things at which the synergy drive excels. I think it all comes down to price and content. If gasoline goes back over $4/gallon, these cars will be flying off the shelves.
Again: it will sell. I just don’t think Lexus should sell it. You may disagree, but I believe a luxury brand should not build too many models and/or chase volume. Period.
Robert: Except that the Lexus brand is proof that that model isn’t necessarily correct.
Both the ES and RX, their big sellers, are unapologetic luxury Toyotas.
And its hardly a brand founded on exclusivity. For 2007, Lexus sold 200K cars a year, and 130K SUVs. I can’t get the link for 2008 but its somewhere…
Selling 25K tarted-up-Priuses is hardly brand dilution (its within the core model of the brand) nor hugely chasing volume (it would perhaps be the 3rd best selling lexus, or 4th. With the ES (Camry), RX (Highlander) definatly ahead and probably the IS as well).
Considering MB/BMW have about 10x more nameplates than Lexus, I think this whole rant is misguided.
Platform analogy – Camry:Lexus ES as Avensis/tC:Lexus HS, with the powertrain lifted from the Camry Hybrid. Not exactly a rebadged Prius.
I just don’t think Lexus should sell it. You may disagree, but I believe a luxury brand should not build too many models and/or chase volume. Period.
Well, it’s not exactly a Cimarron, is it? :)
I’ll start worrying when they slap the badge on a Yaris and ask $25K for it.
You know, it would be interesting to do a piece on the entry-level offerings from each luxo brand and compare them: 1-series, MKZ, TSX, CTS, C-300, etc.
Thoughts of my city getting flooded with these…
*headdesk*
I do question the necessity of creating a separate entry-level hybrid Lexus. I think creating an ES250h would have been a better way to go.
The HS250h uses the drivetrain out of the Camry Hybrid and a as a result only gets a combined rating of 35MPG, or 1MPG better than the Camry hybrid. I think the lack of the Prius’ 50MPG rating is going to be disappointing to potential customers, considering that many will think of this car as the “Lexus Prius”.
If Toyota sees the light at the end of the tunnel, who are we to question their vision?
I understand the rant from the perspective that you don’t consider this is how a luxury car make should work.
By that same token I would imagine that building the RX was a mistake. However, it was such a mistake that every other luxury make followed it because it was a good business decision and Lexus beat them to the punch.
It’s my opinion they’re doing it again.
Now that New GM is aborning, does Toyota feel obliged to become old GM? Seriously.
Mr Farago, I think we may need a Lemming Watch.
“Lemmings are also often pushed into the sea as more and more lemmings arrive at the shore.” – Wikipedia
Platform analogy – Camry:Lexus ES as Avensis/tC:Lexus HS, with the powertrain lifted from the Camry Hybrid. Not exactly a rebadged Prius.
The devil’s in the details though, and while the details have obviously been sweated in the ES’s design, the HS is one ugly car. Which is to say, it’s obviously identifiable as a hybrid, but is that really a good thing for a member of brand whose vehicles otherwise display a remarkable consistency of style?
The RX is not a good comparison. It was a segment-defining vehicle when it was launched and nearly every other crossover aspires to the same standard. The HS isn’t an especially good hybrid (34mpg?), let alone a gold standard of the segment.
Seems simple to me.
The Lexus dealer experience is the equivalent of an auto 5 star restaurant. Lexus dealers want a hybrid up to the product’s usual quality. And while it is common here to refer to Lexus as a tarted up Camry, besides the dealer experience, you get a quieter, better dressed up vehicle.
There are some buyers and that would rather go to a Lexus dealer than the local Toyota dealer. Just like some people would rather stay at the Ritz than a Holiday Inn Express. My local Toyota dealer is OK but the Lexus dealer makes one feel like royalty in comparison.
CSX/CIVIC anyone? It’s growing on me, and will sell well. People sometimes want a bit o’ luxury on the side of thier econobox. It’s also that double whammy of Lexus and hybrid that allows hipsters to look down their nose at the world.
It’s not too many cars, per se, that is bad for a luxury brand, it is losing focus.
If this car is quiet, smooth, safe, has a lot of gadgets, and has very high percieved (the turn signal stalk has a nice tactile feel) and actual (the turn signal stalk doesn’t stop working) quality then it is not bad for the Lexus brand.
Enthusiast performance and exclusivity have never been part of the Lexus brand.
Rebadging Toyota brand cars as Lexuses isn’t something new that Toyota is doing to cash out on the Lexus brand, the Lexus brand was built on rebadged Camrys.
It’s going to be very well received by a certain upscale environmentally-concerned demographic. And frankly, they don’t care whether it actually gets 48 or 39 mpg. Its a hybrid, made by Toyota, and has a nicer interior, and that Lexus dealer experience. Perfect; for them.
Edmunds’ preview suggests $32K. Presuming they’re right… Isn’t the cheapest current Lexus about the same price? So, essentially no hybrid premium at all for a Lexus hybrid? And, if Lexus sticks to formula, basically no options, the base car is nicely equipped (maybe sunroof and Nav separately).
I can see people buying it. 25K? Maybe. Is it a crime to sell 25K entry level luxury cars with a green twist? I don’t think so. My gut says this is a solid addition to the brand, although it might reduce IS-250 sales.
It is a bit Cimarron-ish – this is the last-generation Avensis bits underneath, right? So they take the old platform, put in the Camry drivetrain, stretch the current design language over it, put in a pretty interior, and voila – new “eco-friendly” entry-level model. That’s a great demonstration of harnessing your existing resources, and retooling them for a lucrative second life. They’ll sell a bunch of them, get image points, and eat Volt’s lunch, without the expense of a totally new model like GM’s. More power to them – it’s a free market.
But shouldn’t they be focusing people’s attention on their existing models? If it’s so easy to put the Camry hybrid system in the old Avensis, why not put it in the ES, which is already a Camry? They do it with the RX. Might as well strengthen the cars that are already building your brand – not a tarted-up Scion (for godsakes – a Lexus Scion? Really?) The push down-market can make you lots of profits, but it costs a lot more to get back the lost prestige.
They might as well bring in the hybrid Toyota minivans while they’re at it – sorry, “the new Lexus VS350 Hybrid Crossover… Something Vehicle.”
+1 Bruce Banner – “the new Acura CSX Hybrid Sports Sedan.” They have to have at least thought of that already. Or, if they can put the IMA in the Euro Civic, then they’ll have followed the Lexus play perfectly.
Robert – I think you should clarify your statement regarding the whole luxury brand / chase volume thing.
Are you basically implying that volume automakers who make luxury vehicles should not chase volume with the luxury brands?
Or are you saying luxury brands should remain the bastion of long-hours-per-vehicle manufacturing like Rolls, and Ferrari?
If a volume automaker makes a luxury brand, they want that luxury brand to improve their economies of scale. Volume automakers lose millions in order to make tiny-volume niche cars (like NSXs, Twin Turbo Supras, Vipers, etc).
Toyota needs to sell more hybrid powertrains to bring down the variable cost of the hybrid components. They’ve already blasted their hybrid tech across the meaty-margin end of the Toyota car/cuv lineup; there isn’t really too much further they can take things without entering the luxury brand in a different way.
Margins on a Corolla or Matrix are just too small to piss away on slapping hybrid components. Even though some people would like to believe that hybrid components are relatively cheap versus the market price, the reality is that the pricing premium does not completely cover the cost increase for the hybrid even if the overall vehicle is margin positive.
And Toyota is not yet done with a truck/heavy-duty hybrid setup that gets good results (ie: better than a 10% gain versus a regular truck).
The main problem I have with this car is that it’s incredibly ugly. But then I also thought the previous generation ES was incredibly ugly, and they sold plenty of those.
No one is better at selling ugly cars than Toyota.
There are limits even here, though. Remember the Echo?
Looks like a Japanese Fusion.
I think 25K units might be a bit low.
I can see people buying it. 25K? Maybe. Is it a crime to sell 25K entry level luxury cars with a green twist? I don’t think so. My gut says this is a solid addition to the brand, although it might reduce IS-250 sales.
OTOH, it allows them to position the IS as the “performance” model, the ES is the mainstream, and this is the eco one.
Despite similar price, they’re covering all their bases in the entry luxury market.
–
The main problem I have with this car is that it’s incredibly ugly.
The problem is that ridiculous grille. Seriously, who thought copying new-acura aesthetics was a good idea?
sooooo if people are gonna pay almost 40k for this, why does everyone say the volt wont sell? is it because its from chevy, or its from gm? or is it both. because the volt will be 40 grand.i really dont see a problem with that. people are gonna buy this and its a compact lexus. and people pay over 50 grand for a vette with a plastic interior soo….. yea lol
If I decided to treat myself a bit when I next buy a new car, I could spend a little over $30K without feeling too extravagant. This, or an IS, would be within range. Or I could get a dressed-up Prius or Camry. It comes down to taste and image. Do I want a very nice car that projects a practical image or do I want a very nice car that says I have a luxury car? I can see the attraction in that.
I will buy the low-end Prius but I can see the attraction.
If one has no argument, just call a car “fugly.”
Anyone who makes aesthetic comments should be required to post pics of their ride, their house, their clothes, and a headshot.
long126mike:
You’d think we were calling someone’s kid fugly.
Unlike with people, the aesthetics of manufactured objects are entirely within human control.
Or maybe you think aesthetics are entirely subjective? While tastes vary, some cars are so thoroughly ugly that there is no educated perspective from which they’ll look good.
Between the ungainly proportions and the awful front end, this is one of those cars.
To add insult to injury, the HS looks every bit like an econocar that’s had a bunch shiny bits slathered on it in a lame attempt to make it look upscale. Cadillac did it better with the Cimmaron.
I simply don’t agree with this. Farago frequently focuses on “brand dilution”, but doesn’t adequately recognize that so much of that is just in the minds of the potential consumers. If the buyer thinks of a brand differently than Farago does, there’s no way he can accurately predict what they’ll do. I question whether people who want a 911 see the Cayenne right next to and think, “No. I won’t.” Yes, you will. Because you want a 911, not a Cayenne. Never the twain shall meet.
You’d think we were calling someone’s kid fugly.
No, I just get tired of hearing it. Cars all pretty much look the same these days, with a few exceptions.
If those “fugly” comments were evenly distributed, whatever, but unsurprisingly it’s the critical word of choice for people who can formulate no rational argument against hybrid vehicles.
That’s why I said it would be helpful to see the aesthetic milieu of anyone assuming to be an appearance critic. I gather half the folks who are bleating “fugly” do so from their trailers, then hop in their Caminos to go grab some cigs later, dressed in a stained, torn, tacky mishmash of clothing.
Other overused cliches – smug, appliance, hype.
If we’re looking at brand dilution, then this is not the vehicle that should be put on the hotseat.
The IS model is the one bird with the different feather.
Lexus is simply not a sports car brand. It’s the conservative luxury division that focuses on comfort, ride, and ‘quality’.
The new HS250 definitely fits the perception of the Lexus brand far better than the IS.
I would also add the SC model as another model that doesn’t fit the Lexus brand. The ‘luxury coupe’ almost seems like a contradiction in this day and age. Having four doors, and maybe five, is widely seen as a given for a luxury vehicle.
CAMRY HYBRID PRELIMINARY SPECIFICATIONS
ENGINE
Gasoline Engine Type 2.4-liter, 4-cylinder
Aluminum alloy block with aluminum alloy head
Bore and Stroke 3.48 x 3.78 inches
Displacement 2,362 cc Expansion Ratio 12.5:1
Valve Train Twin-cam, 4-valve/cylinder with VVT-i
Max Power 147 Hp @ 6,000 rpm (129lbs-ft)
Max Torque 138 lb-ft @ 4,400 rpm
Recommended Fuel Regular unleaded
Emission Control AT-PZEV
ELECTRIC MOTOR/GENERATOR/POWER STORAGE
MG2 Motor Type Permanent Magnet Synchronous
105 kW (141Hp) 167lbs-ft @ 4,500 RPM
199 lb-ft 0-1,500 RPM
Geared to PSD 2.47:1
MG1 72 Kw
Battery Type Nickel-Metal Hydride
Nominal Voltage 244.8 V (204 cells, 1.2V/cells)
Capacity 6.5 ampere hour
Weight 150lbs
Battery 45 Horsepower Peak Rating (33kw)
45 because 192-147 = 45 presumably
This is commensurate with the Prius battery weighing 100lbs and delivering 28.5Hp
Max Bus voltage 650v
If MG1 still connected 2.6:1 then must supply 72Kw
Then torque 36 lbs-ft @ 129lbs-ft engine average
Rpm n required 36 x 2pi n = 72k/746 x 550ft-lbs/sec n=234rps=14100 rpm
Base Speed N 14100 = 3.6 x 6000 – 3.6 x N = 2080 = 34 mph MG2 = 5145 rpm
At top speed MG2 = 6k x 2.47 = 14.82k rpm
———————————————–
The HS250 will have a power of 147Hp (engine) plus 45Hp (battery). On a Prius frame this will be yet another ‘power hybrid’.
The current 2010 Prius is 134Hp up from previous 104Hp (2004-2009) For those whose memory could use a refresh.
The ES350 is classed as a sport sedan and for brand conformity cannot be exceeded in power by the Prius looking HS250 as is the case here.
I expect the the HSD powertrain with its CVT characteristic will give the ES350 3.5L V6 a run for its money just as the earlier Prius with its 1.5L engine mirrored the acceleration performance of the non hybrid 2.4L Camry with the 4 cyl engine.
———————————————
As owner of an ES I have to make a rebuttal to the rebadged camry nonsense that’s fluttering around this site. As an informed buyer I knew going in that 70% to 80% of the parts were Camry derived. I liked the fact that the R&D cost for developing those parts was amortised from the annual sale of 300,000 units of the Camry. Can’t say that for a Jag or Corvette. That way Lexus R&D money can be devoted entirely to Lexus specific parts and not the whole car.
Forget the Lexus bling, it is the multi-link suspension that differentiates the Lexus ES from a Camry and if you have not driven this class of vehicle before you will certainly notice the almost complete absence of body roll from the moment you start driving one out the dealership.
@ RF (and long126mike)
My information (not direct – but a reliable source) is that the HS250 is effectively the latest soon-to-be Corolla platform.
It should frighten the hell out of many manufacturers. The next Corolla may well be offered with as “inexpensive” Hybrid drive train. $75-$100/barrel will be decision time for Toyota.
If the USA is lucky, Toyota might build some stateside.
Forget the Lexus bling, it is the multi-link suspension that differentiates the Lexus ES from a Camry and if you have not driven this class of vehicle before you will certainly notice the almost complete absence of body roll from the moment you start driving one out the dealership.
I doubt toyota bothered. Prolly put some proper thickness anti-roll bars in that thing unlike the camry.
T2:
“This class of vehicle” should never be used with regard to the ES.
The ES may have less body roll than the Buick that many ES buyers are coming from, but it is not a sport sedan, that is why Lexus builds the brilliant IS.
And the Camry has an independent rear suspension these days.
If you wanted a sport sedan you would have bought the IS or a G35. You wanted a loaded, quieter Camry – nothing wrong with that.
If those “fugly” comments were evenly distributed, whatever, but unsurprisingly it’s the critical word of choice for people who can formulate no rational argument against hybrid vehicles.
How about this: I really like hybrids, quite like the look of both the second and third-generation Priuses and I think this car is very, very ugly. It’s like the Prius, but without the virtues of versatility and price.
I don’t think there’s anything really wrong with a Lexus hybrid, but I don’t think that the car should be something that looks, for all the world, like a badly bling-afflicted Corolla. Lexus can make attractive cars, and hybrids work for the brand, but they really ought to have slapped the Camry’s powertrain into the ES and/or IS and let it be. The HS really is spectacularly unattractive, and looks like they tried—and failed—to apply Lexus design cues to a platform wholly unsuited to them.
If it were my money to spend on a Lexus hybrid, it’d be the GS400h all the way. Were I wanting more mileage, I’d just get a top-trim Camry or Prius.
I’m curious as to how the older demographic will handle the HS’ computer mouse-like systems controller. Weekly, my grandfather calls me to ask why his DirecTV remote doesn’t work. “Ya gotta push SAT and then change the channel, Pa.”
If Toyota is the New GM, the HS250 is the new Cimmaron.