Eddy gave us the heads-up on Chevrolet Volt Vehicle Chief Engineer Andrew Farah’s party piece over at FastLane. Straight out of the gate, Farah’s not shooting straight on the all-important question of the Volt’s effective driving range. “Scott” asks Andy to compare the Volt to the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius non-plug-in hybrids. “Clearly I enjoyed the significantly longer EV distance that is available with the Volt. I had to drive quite some distance before the engine came on, even though I didn’t start with a full charge. By comparison, our chassis is much more sporty than either of the other vehicles.” Non-starter and a non-sequitur in the same comment; nicely played. And just when you thought it was safe to sit and spin, another e-interlocutor gets Andy to spill the beans.
“What will be the approximate size of the fuel tank and maximum range?” he asks.
We’re still balancing the size of the tank with other factors, but the range will be more than 300 miles on a full charge and with a full tank of fuel.
That, it has to be said, is not a lot. And probably calculated under ideal (i.e., EPA-mandated) conditions.
Farah also has some info for potential customers blowing hot and cold on the potential effect of temperature extremes on the Volt’s range and performance. First, he hints that the Volt will match the new Prius’ solar-powered roof panel AC thingiemabob. At least that’s my take on his enigmatic promise: “We plan to give drivers some unique options when it comes to controlling there [sic] cabin comfort.” As for chilly weather compatibility:
As most people know, cold batteries cannot deliver as much power as warm batteries. The Volt is equipped with an automatic battery thermal management system that will keep them within an optimal temperature range. However, in extremely cold situations we will have to use the engine to supplement the battery.
” … the range will be more than 300 miles on a full charge and with a full tank of fuel.”
That implies that on an extended trip the range per tank will be less than 300 miles. Driving from San Jose to Seattle might involve many more fuel stops than would most conventional vehicles.
The pre-production vehicle they had a pic of on their FastLane blog looks like a cross between a Civic and an Insight.
Will the (other) elephant in the room step forward!
Apart from price (Elephant #1), the second is the likely extremely inefficient ICE generator. Compared to driving the wheels, going petrol to electricity and then electricity to locomotion would “waste” another 20-30% energy. I’d love to see how they’re doing that calculation.
Even short trips with the ICE mode being needed would destroy the MPG.
And they’re saying that EV range is 40 miles, right? That means about 260 miles per tank of gas when not plugging in. Far less than most cars today, and probably about half the range of its $40k competitors. And let’s not even mention the pile of diesel sedans that will be in direct competition at that price: BMW, Merc, and VW to name a few…
Strangely I had really thought that the Volt would have a really impressive range. Apparently not. Good thing GM doesn’t have to compete on the open market anymore!
In terms of range, might as well be driving an RX-8
If I recall it is designed to be a car for average daily commuting without using gasoline. If you want to drive it cross country you can. But you will have to stop for Gas and a pee every 3 to 3 1/2 hours.
Works for me. But we don’t use the small commuter car for trips anyway.
It looks good too.
They’re still looking at the size of the gas tank? I thought this was the “production intent” car?
They do keep dodging the question of ultimate fuel economy; the question was asked on another recent webchat with some exec. “We expect triple-digit EPA ratings.” So, I can charge the battery, put 10 gallons of gas in the car and go 1100 miles? I don’t think so (I’d like to see an HONEST EPA assessment; 40 miles + xx mpg after that.
Juniper,
Short range is a problem. 300 miles is 260 miles of gas range after the charge is off. The car takes 8 hours to recharge (unless you get 220, then it’s 4 hours). You won’t recharge the battery at a fuel stop (even if you could plug in, 5-10 minutes gets you nothing useful).
So, the second and subsequent legs of your trip, your maximum range is 260 miles.
Are gas stations 260 miles apart? No. At 180-200 miles, you’ll be looking at the gas gauge and thinking about your next stop. Chances are, you’ll do it at 200 or so. 220-230 at the outside. You’re not going to drive past a gas station with 30 miles of fuel on board.
Do you drive in the West? There’s plenty of places where 260 miles of range is just not going to be realistic.
Even in the East, that’s marginal. I think the NY Thruway across the top of NY is some 300 miles and, it has been a long time, but gas along it was expensive. You won’t make it across on a single tank. You’ll either buy gas on the Thruway ($ouch$) or you’ll have to leave the expressway and take another few minutes finding fuel off the Thruway, which means an extra 10 minutes delay.
Got kids? The more often you stop, the more you spend. Human nature.
We take long driving trips and I wouldn’t consider a car with an unrefueled range of less than 400 miles unless it had an awful lot going for it other than fuel economy. My current car has 450 miles of range and I think that’s kind of marginal.
Some of the people who buy this car are going to be very unhappy about the range. Which is kind of ironic. Over at GM-Volt, many of the cheeleaders are all about, “I’ll plug in every night and never buy gas again!” Well, if they go on a a long trip, they’ll be singing a different tune, “I’m having to stop and buy gas all the time!”
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There’s a photo over on GM-Volt of the car. It looks like it has a second, recessed chin spoiler that’s amazingly close to the ground. It probably figures into the fairly low Cd they got and I have to wonder what impact on Cd it will have if the thing gets broken. As looks likely.
What a POS!
i want ot know the mileage when never plugged in, basically driven like a regular hybrid.
PeteMoran: it actually can be more efficient that way. the ICE runs at optimum rpm and charges the battery or drives the E-motor directly. whne you need more power for driving, the E-motor gets more juice from the batter, when you need less, the ICE partially charges the battery. the key is keeping the ICE at optimum load. That’s one of the reasons why large ICEs are inefficient to drive cars. To just drive you only need 30 hp. You only need the 200 hp to accelerate a short time. One of the reasons why hybrids with a tiny ICE are so efficient, their ICE, when used, is fully loaded
Kixstart
I have driven all over the United States. Coast to coast, border to border, With my wife and kids. I grew up in the West.Yes I know, please actually read my post. I said 3 to 3 1/2 hours. Long drives are not its strength I agree. If your wife and kids will sit in the car without stopping for 4 to 5 hours that’s fine. I know most won’t. Obviously you are dead set against this vehicle. Fine, but I think there are many that will be thrilled with a 40 mile or shorter commute without using gasoline. They like I will use the larger “family” car for the occasional long trips.
The concept of plug-in hybrids makes sense for somewhere like LA, San Diego, or Orange County. If you’re spending a lot of time commuting long distances anywhere else, the technology just isn’t appropriate (yet?).
But again, all moot. The Volt has a lot more to worry about than technical challenges.
This thing is looking more like a Perpetual Motion machine everyday with lots of asterisks in the fine print.
I wouldn’t give a shit except for the fact my children will be paying for this debacle well into their golden years. How about they mail proxy voting forms to every taxpaying American and ask for a thumbs up or down on leadership, product, or major decisions. Just like normal stock and mutual fund owners.
But that takes control from the socialists doesn’t it?
Butt ugly car with tinkertoy propulsion and lots of suspicions surrounding it’s reliability. I wouldn’t trust it with my wife at night in the rain on a deserted road.
Juniper: “They like I will use the larger “family” car for the occasional long trips.”
So the RE aspect of this RE-EV is useless for you.
Same here. The Volt, as GM plans it, is pointless. It’s a bad EV and it’s a bad long-distance gasser. If they simply (and it would be simpler) built an EV, they’d get more range out of the same battery pack at less overall vehicle cost.
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Kaleun: (efficiency potential of fixed RPM engine)
Except, that’s not what they’re doing. The engine power output will vary depending on the situation. So much for tuning it to an ideal power delivery setting.
I still wonder what is going to happen with this thing on long mountain grades. Detroit doesn’t have any of those, but the western US sure does.
How are we supposed to believe that the company which failed miserably with its electric car (EV1) and failed miserably with its hybrid cars (Saturn Green Line anyone?) is now going to successfully build the first mostly electric hybrid? The efficacy of the Volt’s architecture remains completely unproven.
@ kaleun
30hp? They’re using ~110hp+ 1.4L aren’t they?
Power is power. I suspect the Volt needs more than 30hp to maintain a regulation 55mph, while another 5mph for 60mph would need ~23% more power. Anyone have the Volt numbers?
Even if they’re were using the absolute best available tech, you’d still be at 80% and that would be with a constant RPM/load (like ships or locomotives or stationary gen-sets).
Toyota looked at this problem and went with the more challenging mechanical “power split device” in their Hybrid system.
Decoupling the engine and the wheels is a trade-off that works in a narrow range of circumstances; locomotives (very very high torque requirements, but constant rolling speed), Terex dump trucks (high torque needs, but overall lower over-the-ground weight than mechanical hook-up) on and on….
I can’t see a circumstance where motor-generator running doesn’t cause the MPG to dive massively.
It’ll run at a few setpoints, so yes, it can be optimised for those setpoints.
For the price of this thing they should throw in a free Buick for road trips.
But it’s not really a $40,000 car.
It’s $30,000 worth of Li-ion batteries/ electronics attached to a $10,000 Cobalt replacement with a crappy 1.4 liter GM gas engine.
For $40K you could almost buy two Prius or Insights.
How big is this gas tank supposedly? If’n it’s an 8 or so gallon tank no big deal. This range would actually be good mileage, yeah, you’ll stop moer often but you won’t be spending more on long trips unless the convenience store suckers you in.
Thank goodness for early adopters. If it weren’t for people buying new and interesting products before they were truly practical, we wouldn’t have computers, cell phones, and all the other things we take for granted.
As a first-generation product for GM, the Volt has a lot of room for improvement, but you have to start somewhere. The first generation Toyota Prius wasn’t a stellar performer either. What is the range of the Dodge Viper?
GM doesn’t need enough buyers for the Volt to match the Toyota Camry or the Prius. GM just needs enough sales for the experience curve to kick in.
The main target for this car is daily commuters with the draw of using no gas at all.
On top of that, a 300 mile range is quite reasonable and more than most people are interested in being in a vehicle for per stint. I’ll admit it isn’t a great range for a small car, but long range has never been a selling point.
Somebody posted 250 mile range might leave you stranded? What?!? Where do you live?
I’m going to go out on a limb and say prolly less than 0.5% of drivers need or would ever use a single tank range of over 300 miles with any frequency. And those folks already drive diesels.
Juniper: “Kixstart You obviously have excessive hostility toward GM and the Volt, so no rational discussion is possible only extreme examples on your part.”
I pointed out its inadequacies for long-distance travel. In fact, you agree that it’s unsuitable for long-distance travel, you plan to use a different vehicle. I’m irrational?
Slare: “I’m going to go out on a limb and say prolly less than 0.5% of drivers need or would ever use a single tank range of over 300 miles with any frequency. And those folks already drive diesels.”
We drive a Sienna or a Rav, depending on the situation. 450 and 400 practical miles of range (with some reserve).
Slare: “Somebody posted 250 mile range might leave you stranded? What?!? Where do you live?”
Minnesota. From Minnesota, anywhere someone would actually want to be is a long trip.
But I didn’t say “stranded.” Failing to take into account driving distance and fuel requirement could strand you in any vehicle. I pointed out the probability of inconvenience in a car with 260 miles range.
If you’re driving throug the West on the Interstates… you will probably fuel up where you don’t particularly want to but, otherwise, no problem. If you’re driving through the back end of Utah or the more sparsely settled parts of New Mexico, Wyoming, Montana, Nebraska… plan carefully.
GM likes to think this car has no competition but, in fact, its competition is the Prius and the Insight. Both are a little less economical if driven around town but they are far less expensive and they have excellent legs for long-distance travel.
Toyota and Honda engineers thought about what might be done, had marketing look at what consumers would pay and what they would want to get for their money and worked towards a car that met the budget and requirements.
GM looked – well, Bob Lutz looked – at what might be nifty and told engineers to do it. Their idea of marketing is to persuade themselves that people will want the expsneive comapct car they are building. Well, the other prong of their two-pronged marketing effort is to get Uncle Sam to pony up $7500 per car. That’s a fairly smart move on their part.
John Horner: “How are we supposed to believe that the company which failed miserably with its electric car (EV1) and failed miserably with its hybrid cars (Saturn Green Line anyone?) is now going to successfully build the first mostly electric hybrid?”
That’s a really good question.
Just following up on my earlier question, using some guesses and some speculation, I seem to arrive at around 35hp to maintain 55mph in the Volt with no charging going on. That’s before any drive train losses (ie electricity -> rotation).
It’s been a while since I’ve had to do this stuff for cars, but I used 1600kg as the curb weight, 0.03 as the coefficient of rolling resistance, plus a drag coefficient of ~0.28. The guess on my part was a sectional surface area of about 2.4m2.
Level running, of course.
A ~100hp peak would seem about right if you want going up hills, air conditioning or charging.
I would think the Volt running on fuel would be about 40% more thirsty than the equivalent mechanically connected car. Wouldn’t take long running past the PEV range to ruin those very pretty MPG numbers.
Happy to be shot down.
I think Exxon/Mobil lobbied GM for the inclusion of the ICE.
“Consumers” fear the “jumping off the cliff” aspect of going to full electric, so ease them into the experience with the ICE.
Me? Remove the 350lbs of ICE, generator and fuel/tank and give me 350lbs of sweet, sweet lithium.
But, I have little doubt that (at present) 350lbs of Li-Ion batteries costs more than the greasy bits.
Don’t forget the problem of stale gas if you are actually using it as a plug-in hybrid. No reason to add a 12-15 gallon tank if it’s just more gas to drain and refill when you actually want to drive the car beyond the city limits.
Volt, the car they should have built 15 years ago.
Short range is a problem. 300 miles is 260 miles of gas range after the charge is off. The car takes 8 hours to recharge (unless you get 220, then it’s 4 hours). You won’t recharge the battery at a fuel stop (even if you could plug in, 5-10 minutes gets you nothing useful).
So, the second and subsequent legs of your trip, your maximum range is 260 miles.
Are gas stations 260 miles apart? No. At 180-200 miles, you’ll be looking at the gas gauge and thinking about your next stop. Chances are, you’ll do it at 200 or so. 220-230 at the outside. You’re not going to drive past a gas station with 30 miles of fuel on board.
Do you drive in the West? There’s plenty of places where 260 miles of range is just not going to be realistic.
Wow, this reminds me of when I drove from MI to TX in my Jeep last summer. Heh, heh.
Of course, I had my Jeep loaded with 1000 lbs of gear for the drive and took it Hog Hunting once I got there.
It’s not easy being green!
Lets bash it because the Volt’s competitors are GREAT to drive across country. I have ridden a bike and driven a Miata across country. Both offered about the same range and neither left me stuck in the desert out west with no fuel. If I had to drive a Prius or Insight across country…well I’d fly/take the train/sail around the tip of South America on the raised Titanic before that happened.
And they have a ready market…These will be parked outside of all sorts of government offices and military recruiting stations.
Now they’re using the engine to charge the battery? They used to claim that doing that was inefficient, and the engine would only be used to hold the battery at 30% charge. Flip-flop.
300 miles? They used to claim a range of 400+ miles. Flip-flop.
Now that GM is Government Motors, they’re allowed to flip-flop on all important issues.
A lot of people here seem to be talking about the Volt as the replacement for the all-around family car. It’s not intended that way. The marketing is for daily commuters (“40 miles on a charge”) with an occasional longer trip.
I think there’s an excellent market for such a car. But the Volt isn’t it. The Volt is schizophrenically confused. It’s a $40K car, initially presented with sports car styling. The price tag means it’s a luxury toy. People who can afford to spend $40K on a vanity car don’t need to save money on gas. Sure, there is a segment of people who are rich and want to show off their greenness, but is it a huge market? The Prius, et al. succeed because they are priced where average people can afford them. The Volt simply is not priced that way.
A dedicated commuter with a 300-mile range can’t be a $40K car if you want to sell very many.
The Volt’s “luxury toy to show off my green cred” is also a bit hampered by the fact that it’s a Chevy. Who in their right mind would pay $40K for a Chevy car?
So what is the Volt? A sports car? A roadster? An urban commuter? A “game changing” mass market car? A luxury green pride piece? Or in the GM tradition, not really any of these very much?
You know, for alot of people who comment on here I have to believe that if Toyo or Honda were bringing this car to market, the posts would read as “You see this is Toyo taking a leadership position, why can’t GM do this, even if they lose money on everyone, it’s the perception that matters” The fact that GM is doing it first leads to “it’s destined to fail.” Which of course it probably is as GM really doesn’t have the financial reserves or backbone to push it along until it becomes profitable. Basically in the end Toyota and maybe Ford (as volvo had developed a small turbine powered electric drivetrain, no batteries, in the 90’s) will end up carrying forward and then everyone will say “look GM developed another great technology/product and threw it away just like the EV whatever, whats wrong with them?”. On the flip side GM earned this, they really have and have proven it over and over and over.
You know, for alot of people who comment on here I have to believe that if Toyo or Honda were bringing this car to market, the posts would read as “You see this is Toyo taking a leadership position, why can’t GM do this, even if they lose money on everyone, it’s the perception that matters” The fact that GM is doing it first leads to “it’s destined to fail.”
Maybe because GM has already introduced three (or is it four?) different Hybrid systems and none have proved to be successful in the market – partially because GM has never bothered to develop or market any properly, preferring to move on to the next ‘killer app’.
Toyota, on the other hand, wouldn’t bring this car to market, because they’ve already decided on their Hybrid system and are working to refine it and reduce the costs.
“…more than 300 miles on a full charge and with a full tank of fuel.”
That, it has to be said, is not a lot.
What? My Versa has a practical range of around 340, meaning anything further than that and I’ll start sweating if I don’t see a gas station soon. Most of the cars I’ve owned have fallen into that sweet spot. I read the “more than 300 miles” quote and thought “oh, well, that’s plenty good enough.”
However, it really is starting to sound like they’re just selling a normal gasoline-engine-powered car with an undersized fuel tank, and 40 miles worth of battery + electric motor so you can run errands and such without turning the engine on. I wonder what the electric range would be without the gas tank, gas and gas engine. Perhaps the range extending equipment should be an optional extra.
If they’re taking that approach, then perhaps Mazda should do the same, only using a rotary. Sure, the gas mileage on ’em is crap, but they’re very small and very light — so you’d get more electric range for day-to-day use, but would have to gas it up more often over a long drive. Personally I’d prefer that.