TTAC commentator cc-rider needs some help with his sister’s choice of whips:
Two-and-a-half years ago, my sister bought a 2003 Certified Pre-Owned Volvo XC 70 wagon for $22K, with 55,000 miles on the clock. She now owns the car, out of warranty, knocking on the big rollover (100k). The XC’s dash lights in the gauges and half the instruments don’t work. After charging her $275 for a useless computer reflash, the stealership says it’s the DIM module: a $1200 dash off repair. Oh, and the car needs new lower control arm bushings and sway bar end links. Roughly $2000 all in. Last month, sis spent about $2600 on all new tires, replacing the steering rack and fixing some other front end parts. She has two kids and a large dog, and likes to separate the three (i.e. three rows). She figures she can get $7k for the XC and put another $7k towards her next ride. She’s close to pulling the trigger on a new Acadia out of sheer anger with this Volvo. Should she get in touch with her inner Lang (bring the XC to a local Volvo mechanic and sort it out), buy a New GM appliance or look for a Professional Grade upgrade?
Another two grand is like what, five payments on a new Acadia? If she makes the repairs – amortizing the $2,600 she just spent – it’s equivalent to half a year of new car ownership. I’m betting the Volvo lasts longer than that, if everything’s done right. It boils down to down time. How long can you stand having your car in the shop. Me? Not long. Kids go to school, I go to an office, time is money, but I’d keep the X another year.
I’d get a Highlander or Pilot. You get three rows, like the Acadia, but with ironclad reliability, and without the killer depreciation of the GMC.
I cannot advise without much more information.
And I would never have gotten the Volvo in the first place.
How old is she?
Family?
Budget?
There are so many great vehicles that without the information, how do you help?
The new 2010 Chev Equinox is supposedly a wonderful new car.
The Rav4 still is great.
Does she need larger?
Is the Flex to large?
How about hot wagons?
9.3 Sport Combo?
Passat Wagon?
Is the A4 to expensive?
Really, this would be hard.
Here is the trick to owning a used German/Swedish luxury sedan —- you let the little things slide. Dash lights out? No problem. A little swaybar clunk can be ignored too. I believe the term is to “run it into the ground.”
Really, the car is at 100k miles. She can easily run it another 50-80k miles without fixing any of the items on her list. And she can still probably get $5k for the car at that point, which makes this a much cheaper proposition than buying a new GM vehicle which will surely have horrendous depreciation.
I see a lot of older Benzes around town here in MI that are being driven with several dash warning lights on. Apparently the owners want to drive a Benz but don’t want to keep sinking money into them for every little thing, especially if the cars are older and have high miles. So they learn to ignore the ABS light or whatever and still manage to enjoy their car. I call those lights “Christmas in Stuttgart” since there are usually many warning lights on, and they are of various colors (green, orange, red, like a Christmas tree).
Getting $7000 on trade in for the XC70 might be a stretch given the miles and the work needed (I realize $7000 falls within what KBB says it is worth, but KBB tends to be off on higher mileage vehicles). However, if she can wait and sell it privately I imagine she could easily get that or more.
I’d also recommend looking at the Flex if she wants 3 rows and likes a more wagonlike vehicle as opposed to a tall crossover, but the Acadia is nice as well.
She can get Acadia for 14 large? Here in Ontario, cheapest I found was $26K Canadian ~ $22,000 US.
I think best bet is to find an independent Volvo mechanic and don’t go to a stealership, who’s just guessing problems. Like Sajeev Mehta said yesterday in Piston Slap about Honda “Misdiagnosing car problems is great for heartless mechanics, or know-it-alls unaware of the financial ramifications of their words.” In the end it should work out less then Government Motors appliance.
I’d save a couple grand and go over to the Chevy or Saturn dealership and get a Traverse or Outlook over the Acadia.
TrueDelta’s got the 2009 quintuplets as having low trips per year thus far. And the Traverse was the highest rated CR SUV in it’s category in those snapshots on autos.msn.com.
Given the amount of engineering GM puts into the SUVs and trucks, she’ll be getting one of the best available new SUVs out there. I’d personally go ahead and get the new one as even though it’ll cost more now, it’ll last forever and if it does break will be much cheaper to fix.
I’d probably bail out of the Volvo, as I have very little faith in the newer ones. Volvos up into the ’90s were built like vaults and would last forever and a day with a little attention. The latest batch seem to be much more difficult to live with, especially post-warranty, and even their former strong suit of safety is just on par with everyone else. The Acadia is a nice vehicle, and if she is okay with having the monthly payment, which would probably be spent at the Volvo dealership anyway, then I wouldn’t advise her against it. She may also want to look at the Honda Pilot, and maybe a certified Acura MDX if she likes the 3 row crossover. I saw the RAV4 get a mention above, but they’re a bit smaller and more narrow, with a less useful cargo area when all 3 rows are in use.
For bulletproof reliability with a slight fuel mileage penalty (over the 3 row crossovers), a Tahoe might also be a good thing to look at. The 5.3L engine is incredibly durable, the transmissions are just as good, and for a full size SUV, it’s a nice drive. And if you look at pre-owned models, they can be had on the cheap. Fuel mileage isn’t horrible, but obviously isn’t going to be great either.
Simple. Don’t bring the car to the dealership for repairs.
Where is she located? There are many great indie shops in the Northeast.
And like highrpm said, sometimes it’s just cheaper to deal with niggling things like dash lights. Or do some research on the many Volvo boards to see if there is a simpler/cheaper solution.
Deep six the Volvo and move on to something more…Japanese. Sorry to say but the indestructible bricks have gone by the wayside and evolved into Jaguar reliability with Jaguar repair prices (and it’s not a Jaguar).
Does she really need 4wd or high center of gravity? That’s the real question. If she wants space and frugality – a minivan is what she needs as it’ll do everything she needs give her mid 20s mpg and an Odyssey will give her years and years of reliable transportation.
But of course families can’t drive minivans b/c it means they have a family so we need minivans in disguise of a Pilot or Highlander or Murano. They are not minivans but do most of what minivans do except get good gas mileage, or have 4 actual doors making it harder to park and open the doors (who know sliding doors on wider vehicles make it easier in cramped spaces to get out of), or that big boot with low overhang for dogs to easier jump in unless you tout around an Irish wolfhound.
Disclaimer: I have no Volvo ownership experience. That said, I have heard very little that is good (here on TTAC and elsewhere) about long term Volvo ownership. Volvo has become a fashon accessory, and a fairly expensive one, at that.
I believe that this proposition still holds: US cars break more frequently, but are relatively inexpensive to repair. Japaneese cars break less frequently, and are relatively more expensive to repair. European cars are the worst of both worlds – they break even more frequently than US models and cost more to repair than the Japaneese ones.
My advice: If your sister is concerned about cost, dump the Volvo. Almost anything from the US or Japan is better. If she likes the vibe she gets from the Volvo and cost is secondary, get to an independent mechanic and consider keeping it. If she just has to go euro, the volvo may be the cheapest bet for her.
The new Volvos are unreliable crap, they might as well say VW on them. A pretty good rule of thumb is that if it a Volvo is FWD, or FWD based AWD, then it is crap that should only be leased.
The stuff that is going wrong on this car is worse than my old BMW, this car needs to be put down. Black Book trade-in values actually ranged from $6,745 to $10,770 on this car, so even with the dash light problem (trade it in on a sunny day) the $7K trade in assumption might be legitimate.
If the car is kept it will just be another $2,000 in a couple months; there is no way that these will be the last necessary repairs. This car is costing about $2,000 a month in repairs, that would make a pretty good car payment.
Three rows in a nice safe car? This is a job for Super Mazda 5 (built on a platform, by the way, shared with Volvo, so you know its safe, but using superior Japanese parts suppliers and assemblers, so everything will be much more reliable).
A used Mazda 5 could be had for under $14K – and then there would be no car payment.
Some time ago I shopped for a three row vehicle in the 13K-15K range. I was greatly unimpressed by the condition and milage of Odysseys and Pilots in that range. I ended up with a Mercury Monterey that was 18mo old and had 33K miles on it. It was older couple’s road trip vehicle, so no spilled milk, no cheerios, no melted crayons on the seats or carpets.
I suggest your sister fixes Volvo and keeps it until she can afford to spend at least $20K on a new(er) vehicle.
re:jpcavanaugh:
Volvo used to make bulletproof tanks. Volvos haven’t always been crappy unreliable cars unlike, say, Saabs.
However, with FWD platforms and ownership by Ford Volvo has, unfortunately, lost that reputation.
You know that a car company has fallen off a cliff when buying one of its 16 year old cars would give one a much better ownership experience than buying one of its 6 year old cars.
But yeah, Japan and the US are the way to go. Either it won’t break at all or at least it will be cheap to fix.
We had a 2002 S60 AWD (same drive train). Volvos of that era are not reliable cars. 2001 or later Volvo, forget it. We sold ours when it was still in warranty, preferring to keep our 1996 Volvo 850: despite being 6 years older it was better built, more reliable, and more fun to drive.
I recommend finding a local Volvo independent and asking them for a diagnosis and estimate (pay them for their time if they ask–just be honest and say that you’re making a keep or sell decision).
She might consider a 2006 Acura MDX or 2007 Honda Pilot (they will have about a year of warranty left). These are great 3-row vehicles and she can get them for less than $20,000 if you shop. They are much more reliable, and cheaper to maintain, than a Volvo.
Hmmm….the Volvo boards suggest that the likely problems on the XC have been fixed (suspension parts tend to wear), but it looks like that has been taken care of.
Before buying anything else, I’d go to a different mechanic (good Volvo indie) and have them do a diagnosis. Spend a little money up front for a good view of how healthy the Volvo is. Then make a decision.
Unless she is looking for an excuse to go for a new car, then keeping the Volvo will be cheaper (in everything but the aggravation of having an older car that needs to go to the shop).
Contrary to the Volvo naysayers, the newer Volvos aren’t as tanklike as the older models, but they do tend to run indefinitely as long as they are maintained — they do need new parts from time to time, which can run into the thousands. Still cheaper than a new car — especially if you are happy with the old one otherwise.
Sounds like this owner doesn’t want to put up with the uncertainty of potential expensive repairs. Hammer Time is not for everyone. From what I know, the Lambda vehicles are excellent all around, and provide great fuel economy for their size.
If one doesn’t want to cruise around in their 100k mile + Euro car and not put up with a dashboard lighting up like a tree and weird sounds, then a new or newer car isn’t a bad option, and may actually be a safer cash flow proposition.
My habit is to drive it into the ground. both my car’s CE lights are on, and have been on for a long time. My Blazer also has the occasional airbag warning light come on. For the past 3+ years I’ve driven it that way, not bothering to pay to have either fixed…largely because I feel there is no clear diagnosis and multiple repairs would likely be tried until the right item was fixed. Now at 150k, the Blazer starts everyday, runs very strong, and has plenty of life left in her, despite the stupid lights.
Thanks for the replies so far.
She liked the Acadia over the Chevy because you could buy one used.
If she did the repairs on the current car, she would have averaged about 2 grand a year in repairs for the three years.
The car looks and drives well when working 100%. I am more curious if there is light at the end of the tunnel with the Volvo or if these are just unreliable in general. Cars at that milage need repairs.
I am a cheap skate (drive a b13 se-r) and hate to drop all that cash on a new depreciating ride.
Thanks!
I vote “no” on the Acadia. Early reports say that they aren’t that reliable, and when the warranty runs out, she’ll be in the same boat. I’d take a long, hard look at a Pilot or Highlander. A 2-3-year-old used one can be picked up at a fair price.
Just ditched a 2001 Volvo S60 with a mystery intermittent transmission problem and picked up a Honda Fit. I got rooked on the trade-in, but I couldn’t bring myself to try and sell it.
Financially, there is no way buying a brand new Acadia is going to work out better than keeping the Volvo. She should probably budget $1500-2000/yr for maintaining the Volvo, but even if it’s more than that, it will still be cheaper. A few minutes in Excel should prove this out.
But, yeah, those XC70s are pretty lousy, can’t blame her for wanting to get out of it.
I would advise her to get out of the XC70. They quickly become money pits, especially if you aren’t a DIY kind of person. Even for us DIY guys, modern Volvo parts prices cause extreme heartburn.
“I am more curious if there is light at the end of the tunnel with the Volvo or if these are just unreliable in general. ”
In the case of a modern Volvo, that light is indeed an oncoming train with things like $6000+ automatic transmission replacements spray painted on it by graffiti artists.
“…. but they do tend to run indefinitely as long as they are maintained — they do need new parts from time to time, which can run into the thousands.”
Almost any car will keep running indefinitely if you are willing to keep putting money into it by the thousands.
But jumping on the Acadia bandwagon? No way Jose. Honda is making killer deals on new Pilots right now, and used ones a couple of years old are cheaper still. No sense getting out of the Swedish pot and into the Detroit fire.
Robert,
Great forum question for the B&B but I’m also a bit surprised by it too. Clearly the Volvo is quite a poor quality money pit and rightfully so should provoke anger. However anger mgmt should NOT be funneled into the purchase of a shiny new Gov’t Motors product that will bring forth a whole new set of problems. Why on earth jump from one bad deal to another? The B&B folks have already indicated to either keep driving the Volvo for a few more months as it is and/or purchase a Japanese product either new or used as the better choice. I fully concur. If she’s willing to get so-so gas mileage as shown by her choices then steer her to a newly used Honda Pilot. The only downside to the Pilot will be to keep a watchful eye on the rear diffy fluid changes and prepare for an expensive timing belt change. Other than that, the long-term ownership/cost experience odds of the Honda should be vastly superior to the Volvo and any new Gov’t Motors Obama/Lutz managed offering.
Best of luck for her in whatever choice she ultimately makes.
FYI, for those of use living in areas with emissions checks, driving around in “Christmas Tree” mode is not an option. An illuminated CEL is an automatic failure, meaning you can’t register your vehicle until it is fixed.
As others have said, stop taking the car to the dealer. Find an indie mechanic and get the Volvo fixed. If she’s worried about the Volvo letting her down again then I’d recommend spending the $7k on a second vehicle as a spare or for weekends and trips. Something boring but dead nuts reliable.
@no_slushbox
Volvo used to make bulletproof tanks. Volvos haven’t always been crappy unreliable cars unlike, say, Saabs.
Slushy – I take umbrage. Respectfully, of course. I have personally put over 250K (and counting) on two 9000s and 125K on two 9-5s. All so reliable, it was almost boring – if they weren’t such a kick in the arse to drive.
Volvos? Don’t know, never owned one.
If warranty coverage is a concern, perhaps she should also add the Hyundai Veracruz to the shopping list? (though Acadia has a bigger third row)
PartsUnknown:
You’re being way too modest. Those mileage numbers are very impressive, but you deserve the credit for getting them, not Saab.
While there are certainly many horror stories of XC70 ownership, not all are bad. I’m the original owner of an ’05 XC70 (same basic car as the car in question, with newer AWD system). It has been flawless for the past 4 yrs and 40K miles. Not one thing to report. Only required maintenance has been performed. This is better than the Acura we just sold, and likely better than the BMW we recently acquired. I was very wary of the Volvo reputation going in, but I liked the vehicle and figured I’d be ok buying new. We still have over 3.5 yrs on an extended warranty (see, I’m still wary), but the fact of the matter is the car has been great. Admittedly, we have relatively low miles. The car is used primarily as a family hauler but sometimes sees duty for light off-road excursions. I agree with the other posters who suggest finding a reputable independent Volvo mechanic and letting him/her assess the condition of this vehicle prior to making a decision. If everything is properly maintained, these are great cars.
Just two kids and a dog? Look at a Toyota Venza and see if the dog fits. A Rav4 would also work. Even with a 6, they get respectable fuel economy and have very good performance.
—
Volvos ain’t what they used to be.
Even though I understand the wanting to jump out of the Volvo, even at $2000 per year, you’re going to spend more on something else. Stay in the Volvo for a bit longer. And do like what others have said, find a good independent Volvo mechanic and have them look over it. My parents have a 1998 V70 that we never take to the dealership, but an independent place. The repairs can be pricy, especially compared to my dad’s 98 Blazer or my 05 Impala, but the car still runs like a tank. I know they’re different models, but still, keep it for now.
This is so silly. Cars need to be fixed when they start getting some miles on them. Fix the Volvo (if you like the car), then put what you would have spent on a car payment in a savings account every month. When you get the amount you just spent in there, give it back to yourself, but keep dunking that payment in savings. Going forward you will come out so far ahead you won’t even believe it, and you will have a nice big fund to pay for the inevitable. This is my plan once I pay off my ’08 Saab 9-3SC next year. I plan to keep it for 10 years.
Talk to an independent mechanic. If he gives you an excuse to get out, go to Subaru and get a certified car. Most Subarus are recommended by the IIHS for their safety and between the Outback, Impreza Wagon, Forester and Tribeca she has plenty of options.
Hey, easy on the Saabs and Volvo’s. I currently have a 2006 V70 2.5T I purchased as a CPO and it has not had any reliability issues. I previously owned two Saab 9-5’s and both were also very reliable. The key is to take car of them, do all the regular scheduled maintenance with 5K oil/oil filter changes. I also recommend that you resist the urge to buy new model cars in the first 2 years of production. It takes a few years to work the bugs out. I believe that in general more modern cars tend to be more reliable in the their first years then they were years ago, due to better QA, production methods, etc. Thus the longer manufactuer warranties of today. However, modern engineering, numerical analysis, simulation, etc. has allowed new car designs to be “optimized” and as a result the long term reliability is reduced, i.e. cars are no longer “over-engineered”.
slateslate: If warranty coverage is a concern, perhaps she should also add the Hyundai Veracruz to the shopping list?
I forgot the Veracruz! Good idea. Although it does have a child sized 3rd row.
Holy hell! I’m a Volvo owner and I’ve got two words for you: Independent Mechanic!
That stealership is a ripoff. I just barely had the lower control arms and tie rod ends replaced on my XC70, and I was out the door for under $500 including 4-wheel alignment.
I did the sway bar end links myself last year. Anyone who can read and follow simple instructions can do that job themselves for the cost of parts:
http://www.ipdusa.com/Volvo-V70XC70-2001-2007/Suspension-&-Steering/IPD-Heavy-Duty-Endlinks/p-127-388-864/
you let the little things slide.
How can you do that? I’m not a perfectionist about most things in my life. But, if anything is wrong with the car it drives me insane.
@jmo
How can you do that? I’m not a perfectionist about most things in my life. But, if anything is wrong with the car it drives me insane.
Agree 100%, I’m normally the same way. But, owning an older European car, you have to pick your battles. My 9000 with over 120K has inop cruise control, the heated seats no longer work, and the bulb that illuminates my temp gauge is out. But the important stuff – engine, trans, windows/locks, HVAC, stereo – all works flawlessly. You’d be chasing stuff around forever…I like golf and hanging out with my kids too much to go down that slippery slope.
Goddamn, people! Believe it or not everyone has the time, inclination, or desire to drive their cars until they fall apart, or do their own wrench work.
To read the Piston Slap and Hammer Time comments on this site, you’d think that everyone is (or should be) an ASC certified mechanic, with a garage full of tools and a lift.
She’s got two kids and a dog – do you really think she is going to be hoisting her car up and replacing her own sway bars?
I’ve got a wife and two kids, and work 50-60 hours a week. I’ve certainly got the means and ability to do my own work, but quite frankly, I’ve got better things to do with my time than scraping my knuckles on the weekends.
Some people just want reliable, hassle-free transportation. So yes, this usually means getting rid of the car before it has 100K miles on it (or even 75K). That is one of the reasons why I lease – my cars are always under factory warranty. Yes, it is expensive, but I always know my car is going to start, and that my family will never be stranded in a broken down car. Sometimes peace of mind is worth as much as driving your car until it is falling apart.
The 03 XC70 has average frequency of repair, according to the 2009 Annual Auto Issue of Consumer Reports, and appears neither on the list of used cars to buy or used cars to avoid. With that in mind, I’d be tempted to keep it longer. But I’d go for a Honda or Toyota for the eventual replacement.
I agree with others that say find a good indie Volvo shop and have them give her an estimate if she wants to keep it. I just got my 2007 XC90 out of the shop and had one of the front axles replaced. At the 15k mi service!
I’m still thinking of keeping it once my lease is up, though, it’s been pretty solid otherwise. Finally, whatever the current crash tests say I’d still rather crash in Volvo than say, a Mazda or Acadia. But that’s just me!
We have an independent shop that services both Hondas and Volvos. My experience supports the proposition that you don’t really want to own an XC70 or any other Volvo after it is out of warranty. The downside is too steep. The Honda Pilot seems to require little more than its scheduled maintenance till it reaches it’s massive service interval at 110K. Then its $1800 and off for another century as far as I can tell. Pilot owners-happy. Volvo owners uhhhhhhh not so much.
That being said I agree with those who suggest that many of the things on the repair list can be ignored or lived with and that the dealer is not being particularly helpful in prioritizing repairs. I have had good success recommending the database compiled by CarTalk listeners at this URL for independent shop advice. While these consumer based recommendations are not foolproof they do usually point you in the right direction. I’ve also found that asking other Volvo owners that you find in the grocery store parking lot can be very effective.
What are the chances anyone could reccomend a Volvo specialist in the northwest suburbs of Boston? She is in the greater Burlington area.
Great comments. Thank you everyone!
cc-rider,
Swedish Motor Works in Concord. Great indy shop.
I’d get a Highlander or Pilot. You get three rows, like the Acadia, but with ironclad reliability, and without the killer depreciation of the GMC.
Where do we get the idea that Hondas and Toyotas are somehow exempt from producing crap? The Highlander has had several recall problems as has had the Pilot. So far, I haven’t heard too many problems with the Acadia, though I wouldn’t go for one.
Trade in that lovely Volvo for another. Normally dealerships give a loyalty bonus and may find you a great deal.
1) Independent mechanic.
Believe it or not many Volvo specialists are just as expensive as the dealer. Having owned several versions of this model I would have no problem taking it to an indy shop that has been around for a long time.
2) http://www.xc70.com/
She should visit this site and find out what’s in store for her so she can prepare.
3) Use the best fluids… period
Newer Volvos are EXTREME cases when it comes to the use of special fluids and the value created by using top quality parts. You can’t ‘Autozone’ and ‘Wal-Mart’ them. The XC70 in particular will typically need premium tires (the AWD system is very sensitive), a unique transmission fluid (the Camry and Altima share it), and runs far better on synthetic.
The good news is that this model can run exceptionally well for the long haul. The bad news is that parts are simply not cheap. But compared to the OMG dealership prices, she should see her maintenance costs be far lower.
Look at the Volvo schedule, change the tranny fluid every two years (and no, I am not kidding) and she should be more than fine. Keep the car. Keep up with maintenance.
It’s an honor to follow Steven Lang. +1 on everything he says. The value received at a good independent shop at the same per hour rate will still be greater than at the stealership.
The newer Volvos aren’t like the old bricks, but that change had happened long before Ford.
The old RWD bricks were solid, to be sure – my 1991 171K 744 was recently sold to friends, due to the can’t-keep-a-fifth car-around-anymore syndrome, among other things. The beloved late 1993 160K 945 was totaled only after a seriously drunk driver plowed into it.
But the FWD V70 and S80 are still pretty solid at around 120K each. In fact, at the same mileages they have had fewer repairs than experienced with the old RWD bricks. E.g., the Japanese A/C compressor failing at 98K on the 1991 744, the motor mounts at 90K, etc. … (and all the troublesome parts on my Alfa Romeo 164 were all built by Bosch… go figure.)
If the XC70 has a normally aspirated 5 cylinder Porsche-designed white block engine, and a Aisin-Warner Japanese transmission, it’s probably good for at least another 100K miles. YMMV of course, but why would anyone expect to run any Euro car out of warranty for $900 a year in maintenance?