Fresh off a recent discussion at TTAC on the menace of brake dust, the NYT reports that the phenomenon made an impact on the recent JD Power Initia Quality Survey. Apparently consumers are complaining about brake dust in their IQS surveys, and it (among other things) knocked the Jag XF down a spot on the final standings. “A lot of the problems that might seem somewhat trivial from an engineering standpoint -– and brake dust is a good example –- are not necessarily trivial from a consumer’s standpoint,” says Powers’ David Sargent. “The perception is that the brakes are not performing properly, which is false, but in the consumer’s mind it is reality,”he explains. If brake dust isn’t an actual malfunction, why is it included in the IQS survey?
“In our mind if consumers consider something to be a quality problem we would consider it a quality problem because the purpose of the study is to report back problems as defined by consumers,” explains Sargent. And apparently this phenomenon led to Ford significantly downgrading braking power when it refreshed its Focus for 2005. As long as consumers stop complaining about brake dust, nobody seems to care that the brakes actually function worse than before.
Akebono ceramic brakes. Work great, last long, and very little dust. Reasonably priced as well…. Perfect for street cars IMHO. Come as OEM on certain makes… From website – “Akebono’s OEM customers include: General Motors, Ford Motor Company, DaimlerChrysler, Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi Motors, Mazda, Nissan, Subaru and Isuzu.”
http://www.akebonobrakes.com/
I’m surprised there’s not more complaining about brake noise, too. A lot of OEM brake pads squeak and there’s not much that can be done about it. It was a huge deal with the Lexus IS as recently as last summer (not sure if it’s been fixed at the factory). Their fix at the service department was to change the pads to a set that compromised performance for less dust and squeal. Most customers chose the quiet, cleaner pads.
This is why quality surveys can be wrong. The public can be mistaken in what is “quality”.
+1 tced2
What next? People ding a car’s quality based on bird droppings?
–chuck
“A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.” – Kay
I once had a VW owner argue that reliability was not a function of quality. I wished him well with his high quality, disabled Golf.
I like clean wheels, but I like stopping more. As was said many times in the brake dust thread, you can have both, and OEMs know it. The true measure of an OE braking system should be a series of stops to determine the best/worst stopping distances. Brake dust should not be a consideration for this metric.
I think that the brake dust complaint makes sense in the context of what the survey is. It is an Initial Quality Survey. You’re Joe Newcarowner and you are asked if you have had any issues. If you perceive there’s an inordinate amount of brake dust, you mention it.
Brake dust can be a real issue. A neighbor’s recently purchased Chevy Traverse was throwing off so much brake dust, that the residue actually created chips and scratches in the paint around the wheels and had to be touched up under warranty.
I agree that brake dust could be a subjective consideration for a survey, but it would appear to be a factor in OEMs determining the very real requirements of braking systems. Unfortunately, OEMs are chasing these stupid ratings and pennies, so the quick, cheap fix is shipping low dust pads that have little fade resistance and a host of other problems.
Joe Newcarowner apparently cares about JD Power ratings, brake dust, and car prices more than good braking performance, and the OEMs deliver what they perceive to be what Joe desires. It’s chicken-egg territory.
joe_thousandaire, that sounds more like pad failure through fragmentation than simply high levels of brake dust, and that would definitely be a quality issue.
Regenerativing brake should solve this.
So would that explain why the Taurus SHO sets its brakes on fire?
charly
regenerative brakes slow a vehicle down, they dont stop it
the factory pads on my 05 Escape left hardly any brake dust, while the aftermarket pads i put on it blacken the rims in about 2-3 days of driving. Had this been this way new, i would have definatly mentioned it on a quality survey. as surveys are how we each perceive quality, not necessarily how it is
Ford is the absolute WORST when it comes to brake dust. For that reason alone, I would never buy a Ford.
The 2001 Escape (through current) started Fords despicable decline into brake dust hell. You would have thought they would have learned their lesson by 2004 when the re-skinned F-150 rolled out…but no…the last gen F-150s were terrible.
In contrast, all of the GM vehicles I see including my own and other family members NEVER have a problem with brake dust.
Many times brake dust is a convenient scapegoat when a car scores low in IQS.
And don’t blame the public. If JD Power didn’t want to include brake dust, they could exclude it.
TrueDelta’s Car Reliability Survey entirely excludes pads and rotors from the analysis, and the XF still had the highest repair frequency of any 2009 in the survey. Problems of the first model year include a lot of minor electrical issues and some issues with door fits. The 2010s could be better, time will tell.
http://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability.php
Ford is the absolute WORST when it comes to brake dust. For that reason alone, I would never buy a Ford. – P71_CrownVic
Really? If I found an otherwise perfect vehicle and it happened to be a Ford with a disagreeable level of brake dust, I’d just change the pads.
I’d prefer a survey that looked at actual braking performance, with possibly a footnote related to dusting issues. Knocking a vehicle for brake dust is even worse than dinging it for OE tire issues. Should OE brake pad and tire choices be considered? Sure, but give them their proper weight in the overall rating of the vehicle.
Okay, in the scheme of things brake dust really ain’t shit. That said, excessive brake dust is a PITA to deal with, especially since, with the click of a mouse, I can buy low-dust aftermarket pads all day long that perform better than and last just as long as OEM pads? Why in the hell can’t the OEMs spec such pads as factory equipment? WTFO!?
As I said…
Unfortunately, OEMs are chasing these stupid ratings and pennies, so the quick, cheap fix is shipping low dust pads that have little fade resistance and a host of other problems.
A slightly better OEM answer is shipping pads that brake well, but have high dust levels. I don’t know what the difference in cost would be for an OEM to buy high quality, low dusting pads, but I’m sure it’s significant enough that it’s rarely done. It seems silly to us on a car by car basis, but when you’re rolling hundreds of thousands out the door, every cent has to count, and you know some buyers are more concerned with Bluetooth connectivity than solid braking performance.
Really? If I found an otherwise perfect vehicle and it happened to be a Ford with a disagreeable level of brake dust, I’d just change the pads.
Well, there are many more reasons not to buy a Ford. Frankly, having TWO leave me stranded…one on 4 degree weather (it actually overheated!) are two more great reasons.
And it doesn’t stop there.
Brake dust is clearly identified as a design problem versus a defect problem in the IQS results. Anyone who tries to present brake dust as a reason for low IQS scores usually comes out looking pretty dumb.
A HVAC system that is difficult to use impacts a customer’s perception of quality. An HVAC system that doesn’t work at all also impacts the perception of quality. Blaming the customer for having the “incorrect” notion of quality is like blaming a greyhound for not chasing the faux-bunny correctly. Automakers know what is on the IQS test, and automakers also know they’re selling a car to hundreds of thousands (or millions) of people who have their individual notions on what they’re looking for. You don’t succeed by blaming customers for complaining about your products.
If many hate the cruise control, button placement then it’s a problem in execution… and not an indication that your customers are stupid. And it’s also odd to write off a survey just because you don’t think that it should include a question that asks customers what they thought of brake dust. There is also a question on there that asks customers if they like the quality of the paint job on the car. Is that question trivial and useless as well? Not everyone thinks of paint when they think of quality products. So if everyone is not in consensus that perceived paint quality is important, should it be stricken from analysis? There is a separate question if the paint has a defect; one question just asks people if they like the paint job.
I understand the point of “consumer defined quality”, but I wouldn’t flatly consider brake dust a design problem any more than I’d consider OE tire selection a design problem. There are several off the shelf, aftermarket pads that work far better for street use than most OE pads, without excessive dust, and the aftermarket pads work with the rest of the OE braking system just fine.
Here’s an anecdotal example. My ’04 Accord shipped with quiet, low dusting pads. By the time the warranty was up, those OE pads had left an uneven layer of material on the rotors (front end vibration), and they definitely didn’t work well when stressed, but they hardly made any dust. For Honda, the pads were perfect. They were quiet, they stopped the car reasonably well during the warranty period, and they were relatively cheap, so their IQS looked good and they kept their overall price down. For me, the pads were subpar and were definitely affecting the driveability of the car. With their pad choice, Honda made a definite, objective impact on the longterm, safe operation of the car. To me, that’s much more of a “quality issue” than excessive brake dust.
Big surprise, OEMs try to cater to the largest portion of their customers, and if enough people complain about brake dust and noise affecting “perceived quality”, they ship cheap, low dusting pads that pump up their IQS numbers. For just this reason, IQS numbers should only be considered a small part of any objective rating of a vehicle. Longterm testing is far more important to me than any IQS award.
I understand the point of “consumer defined quality”, but I wouldn’t flatly consider brake dust a design problem any more than I’d consider OE tire selection a design problem.
I guess I wouldn’t call it a “problem” either…but when I am buying a $40K truck or a $50K SUV, I expect that the manufacturer didn’t cheap out and use crappy pads. For me, part of pad performance is lack of brake dust. I shouldn’t have to change OE pads because of dust…that is excusing the manufacturers negligence.
Now, I have seen F-150s/Mustangs/Escapes/Edge/Focus all across the model range with black wheels. It simply is inexcusable…whether it’s a 12K Focus or a $50K F-150.
In contrast, my Silverado and another family members Buick Rainier have had dust free wheels.
I shouldn’t have to change OE pads because of dust…that is excusing the manufacturers negligence.
Believe me, I definitely agree. It’s not a big deal for me to spend $100 on better pads (still pisses me off) and install them during an annual brake fluid change, but that same job would be at least twice as much if done at a dealership, and they’d probably balk at installing non-OE pads.
The trick is getting OEMs to see the light, and I have no idea how to accomplish that task, especially if they’re chasing IQS numbers and counting the wrong beans.
The public can be mistaken in what is “quality”.
Perhaps, but it is the public which decides upon the success or failure of a product. Customers might be “wrong”, but they always get the last word in the end.
Back when I was forced to go through numerous corporate quality training seminars, the well paid consultants insisted that the definition of quality is “meeting requirements”. Said requirement were determined by the customer. They even went into a lot of gyrations to define internal and external customers for products and services. This was in the era when people still cared about the Malcolm Baldrige National Quality Award.
Oddly enough, none of the really successful modern American companies are Baldrige winners. Apple, Intel, Microsoft, Cisco, Costco and the like ignore the award pursuit.
well i know this is a bit picky, but excessive brake dust is very annoying, and if i must say looks ugly on a high end vehicle like the XF. i’m sure there are ways to minimize the quantity of the dust someway or the other. i can think of polished finish for the rims that are coated with a non stick finish to decrease the amount stuck, or better air clearance through the rims.
Has it come to this? Complaining about brake dust? I bailed out of two Corvette forums because 99% of the threads was about appearance. By the way, my 2+ year old F150 has yet to see a wash although I did open both doors once and hose out the interior.
When I worked at a Jaguar dealership 20 years ago, I can tell you for certain that brake squeal was a huge problem. I was the guy who ordered the supplies to fight the squeal. One of my co-workers went to work at a Saab store and brake squeal was a huge problem there as well.
So I dunno, I live on a street and there’s a chicane in front of my house. I don’t hear brake squeal like the old days.
So what’s my point? Well, if the customers express their concern, then somebody will listen and figure it out. It’s not rocket science. Just cars.
And today, it’s brake dust. Think about it for a second, most cars, which most people buy, are pretty darned good when compared to the junk we grew up driving. So, what else do they have to complain about?
WASH YOUR WHEELS!! Ok, so I’ve always loved to wash alloy wheels. I grew up when alloy wheels were a rare luxury so I treat them as such. Just this week I saw a BMW 530xi with a set of wheels that I’d call wheel porn. BMW has the best OEM wheel designers in the world. I wouldn’t call my affliction a fetish but cleaning my wife’s GTI VR6 alloys every week makes me feel really good. When I start getting the urge to lick them I’ll seek professional help.
Ford is the absolute WORST when it comes to brake dust. For that reason alone, I would never buy a Ford. – P71_CrownVic
Actually Mercedes has the worst brake dust of any car, and has for at least 25 years. But they stop the car well, which is why I always use OEM pads on mine. Wash the car once a week, including the wheels, and it’s simply not a problem.
They should pair the dusty brake pads with black wheels. Bye bye, quality problem!
As I understand it, German TUV requirements include graphite in the brake pad formulation. Why, I dont know, but I’ve seen it on German cars for 30 years. So, German OE pads will always make the wheels black with dust. My BMW had the same issue, as did the Ford Fiesta. It had dust and short pad life. Repco Metal Masters fixed that.
I switched to EBC Green Stuff pads on the BMW and, while not dust-free, performed better than OE without noise or any other side-effects.
I agree with Roadcholar, wash your wheels. If you let it build up it makes it even worse to get off.
Are there no scientists cum chemists among the B&B who can save us all from the curse of the black death dust?
WHY does the dust stick to the wheels? Is it an electromagnetic attraction? Could you put an electrode/anode to attract the dust instead of the wheel?
Could you hook up a windshield fluid (et al) container filled with washer to wick the dust away?
Surely, there’s an solution from the B&B of the B&B.
I’ve read it’s at least partially an electrostatic process that attracts the dust, then it bonds through heat and chemistry. This isn’t really a brake dust issue. The problem would be solved by getting OEMs to use better performing, lower dusting pads.
Unless you just have to use high dusting pads, it’s not hard to deal with brake dust on all but the most ornate wheels (my apologies to the spokers). Preventative measures, like thoroughly washing the wheels and occasionally applying wax, makes a huge difference. I use a really long brush that allows me to clean the entire inside of the wheel while it’s mounted, and that seems to keep the exterior surfaces cleaner, too. I only have to use Simple Green to get the dust to release, and my stock wheels still look great.