TTAC commentator Juniperbug writes:
I live in Montreal. Currently I have an old, unreliable sport bike as a recreational summer vehicle, doing most of my commuting via a mediocre public transit system. I’m considering buying a newish car for work and play. I’m 25, single, full-time employed at a moderately-paying job, and going to be studying part-time to boot. I love heel-toeing just about anything I get my mitts on, and am looking for driving pleasure and not outright speed. Spaciousness is not a priority for my current lifestyle (but is appreciated), but reliability and cost-efficiency are. A 2006-ish Miata seemed to be a great candidate, but while searching the classifieds I noticed that there’s a whole slew of RX-8’s available with around 20k miles for similar money as the Miata.
Are there significant reliability or maintenance issues with the RX? I realize that the rotary is a much more specialized unit, but is it likely to need much maintenance with the mileage that low? Aside from fuel, oil and tire consumption, and probably insurance, what other additional expenses would the RX require?
Whatever I buy will have to be winter-driven in a cold, snowy, salty environment. RWD doesn’t scare me (traction control and winter tires will probably still make it a safer drive than my all-season-equipped Jetta Coupe was), but I’m worried about long-term rust penetration and ground clearance.
What car do you see me in?
Sajeev replies:
I had a discussion with Jonny Lieberman about the RX-8, and how much better it’d be with a different engine. He didn’t buy it and didn’t care for my “LS-X swap” comment one bit. Fair enough, but the RX-8’s engine has mad issues.
Not that I am a rotary hater (twin-turbo RX-7 FTW, baby) but the RX-8 isn’t worthy of the competitors at its price point. And reading this thread on the RX-8 Club forum didn’t help matters. Engine failures are not a rare occurrence on the interweb: which is a great addition to the tapestry woven from a torqueless and relatively slow sports car. Once the warranty runs out, you run away from an RX-8. Or just avoid them altogether.
You can do so much better. Get a Miata and start Autocrossing. Get a 350Z and go anywhere an RX-8 does, faster. Roll the Bullitt Mustang for respectable grip and maximum thrust. Or go plush and refined (ideal for the city) with an LS-powered Pontiac GTO.
But you want fun, so I recommend the Miata and an SCCA/NASA license. Which is made of all kinds of “win.”
For something a little more unusual, find a Honda S2000. Faster than a Miata, and much more unique. No engine worries.
Gently-used Subaru WRX – unless Montreal’s roads are as bad as Pennsylvania’s, then a Legacy GT.
Edit: Interesting gaggle of females, there.
Sajeev – you are right, Johnny is wrong. Electric cars will be perfected before the rotary. With regard to the “do not be seduced” picture above – if the RX-8 is what appears to be a hot woman then its rotary engine is the Adam’s apple that you notice when you look closer.
The Miata and RX-8 are almost identical (the same Mazda small RWD car platform), except that the Miata weighs more than 500 pounds less, has a convertible top, and, most importantly, has an engine that is not an unreliable piece of crap. Don’t forget that the new Miata is at 166 HP, with more torque for its weight (weight/torque) than the RX-8.
In the US Mazda has put an 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty on the RX-8, including all used ones. I’m not sure if that applies in Canada, and even if it does you’re risking $5-7 thousand USD that Mazda doesn’t try to weasel out of it because you don’t have enough maintenance receipts. And it makes the RX-8 a throw-away after 100,000 miles or 8 years, with no resale value.
Easily pick the Miata. Or, for something a bit different but dirt cheap, at least in the in the US, a 2005+ stick shift Mustang V6.
From rumors I’ve heard – Canada actually has a winter where it snows repeatedly and for long periods of time. Who knew a county so close to the arctic did so.
I would really consider the need of all weather performance where you may want to go skiing or – ahem rallying! A nice used Subaru WRX would fit the bill nicely. The 2008s are actually much cheaper than the 2009s b/c they didn’t get the huge bump in power people were expecting. They are fast enough at 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and low 14 second 1/4 mile (if that matters). What is lovely about these cars is they are very reliable, small enough for a city and really fun to drive. Plus you need a backseat for your bikini clad friends.
Miata over RX-8 100 times out of 100! There’s nothing more maddening than a great chassis with a gutless engine, and the RX-8 is precisely that. The Miata’s no speed demon, but it’s got enough power to be competent, and it’s an amazing handler. Now if you can get a pack of chicks like the one above with your RX-8, then I’d be hard pressed to advise against that. Otherwise, Miata HO! (So to speak.)
Rather than bandying about the eye-catching worst-case-scenarios that occur in the case of the RX-8, why don’t you check out a more objective, methodical source? Michael Karesh is no stranger on this site and his project http://www.truedelta.com aggregates repair data from actual, on-road examples. According to his site, the RX-8 is:
“Repair rate about average, despite widespread perceptions to the contrary.”
Wait, wait, you live in Montreal and you’re going to buy a nice car to commute in? Madness.
Points/questions:
* Insurance. Montreal has, bar none, some of the most insane drivers of any city in North America. Your nice new car will probably cost you a mint to insure on those grounds alone. Add to it that you’re young, male (?) and looking at a sports car and you’ll be paying in insurance close to what a new car costs to finance.
* Damage. As above. Montreal. It will get hit, scraped, keyed and such.
* Parking. Where do you live? On the island proper, or in one of the suburbs? Are you commuting to the island every day to work/school. If I recall, parking wasn’t quite as stupidly expensive as Toronto, but it wasn’t cheap, either.
If I were you, I would get something that you won’t shed a tear to see dented, won’t cost a fortune to insure and won’t kill you to own. Possibilities that come to mind: Honda Fit, Ford Focus, Saturn Ion Redline, Mazda Protege5. The Ion’s plastic doors will pay their way in a year, trust me.
Owning a nice car in a major urban centre is a trying experience. My Saab spent a minimum of one trip per year in the body shop and my insurance dropped by more than half when I moved from Toronto to the north Kawarthas. If you go this route, the RX-8 is not really a bad car, per se**, and Mazda is good about the warranty provided you’re good with the oil change regimen, but the first crunch to those sculpted fenders will be a heartbreaker.
** The stink of death from the rotary is from the FD RX-7, which did have problems. The RX-8’s engine is actually pretty solid, but you cannot a) mod it very easily, at risk of your apex seals or b) neglect the oil levels. Good RX owners check the oil when they fill the tank; bad RX owners treat it like a Corolla. The nice part is that if you remember the oil issue, the whole rest of the car actually quite solid. Remember: reliability is much more than the theoretical engine, especially in a modern car and certainly when you don’t have a garage, tools or time.
no_slushbox : Sajeev – you are right, Johnny is wrong. Electric cars will be perfected before the rotary. And it makes the RX-8 a throw-away after 100,000 miles or 8 years, with no resale value.
Ya know, I think Tesla should be in the business of converting RX-8s to electric power. Betcha that will lower their overhead.
And the no resale value (forecasted, of course) is even more reason why an LS-X swap will make this pooch into a complete, corner carving MONSTER.
A bit of an aside about Canada’s winters. Canada’s a big place. There are places in Canada that are south (in degrees latitude) of places in Nevada, California, and Nebraska. Just because it’s Canada doesn’t mean there are polar bears on the prowl. That said, I’m sure a winter in Montreal is rather chilly.
Now that your daily geography lesson is over, on to a Mazda comment. I love the idea of the RX-8, but engine issues have prevented me from any serious pursuit of the car. I love the idea of the Miata, but my 6’2″ frame has prevented em from any serious pursuit of the car. I want a my-sized Mazda. I drove an 09 Legacy GT, and it’s a great “grown-up’s” car for young people who want understated performance. I want this car badly. Too bad about the 2010 models vague resemblance to the Sebring.
Miata. Put the snow tires on the factory wheels and get some really sweet aftermarket ones to mount your “summer” tires. Sure you’ll only be able to take one of those beauties with you but if she can pack everything the two of you need for a weekend road trip into the Miata’s tiny trunk, she’s a keeper!
Montreal has, bar none, some of the most insane drivers of any city in North America
I’ve heard this before but just don’t buy it. The times I’ve driven through downtown Montreal, the Canadian drivers were rather polite.
Maybe a bit aggressive, but no more so than say Boston metro area (suicidal drivers there) or the NYC metro area (super aggressive, GTFO my way type drivers).
Sajeev has just lost all credibility with me. The RENESIS does not have “mad problems”. Speak to people who have owned one if you want the real dish. If you only need two seats then by all means a Miata or S2000 would be good choices. If you think you might occasionally want the use of 4 and a bit more power then the RX8 is a good choice. Get a 06 or later model easily for $15-20k in the states, not sure about Canada).
The rotary does need a little bit of extra car, you actually need to check the oil every couple of weeks and don’t take it out of the garage and then immediately turn it off cold. But other than that it’s a good car. And if you run it hard it will last a long time. I seem to have more of a chance of my STI blowing a ringland now than I ever did of my RX8 blowing an apex seal.
Also check out the RX8club board that Sajeev conveniently linked to for the over 100,000 mile club posts, many with over 100k miles and no issues. Do your research and don’t rely on “some guy on the internet” who have never owned the car.
If you want a scalpel over a sledge hammer with an engine as smooth as whipped butter and don’t mind being out run by Cobalt SS then the RX8 (used) is a great choice.
Steve_S : The RENESIS does not have “mad problems”. Speak to people who have owned one if you want the real dish.
Fair enough. That’s because I have spoken to one personally, and his reasons for buying the car are full of “ifs” and “buts” when it comes to its sad performance and questionable durability. You know, relative to a 350Z or any other car in this class.
Makes the RX-8 a tough recommendation after hearing it from the horses mouth!
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Also check out the RX8club board that Sajeev conveniently linked to for the over 100,000 mile club posts, many with over 100k miles and no issues.
Compare the number of “bad” engine threads over there to other model forums. Yeah, its not TrueDelta scientific, but I’m okay with lurking on forums for information.
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If you want a scalpel over a sledge hammer with an engine as smooth as whipped butter and don’t mind being out run by Cobalt SS then the RX8 (used) is a great choice.
Damn with faint praise much?
Sajeev Mehta:
Zero resale value is pretty certain for out of warranty cars. The RX-7 was rare and beautiful, the RX-8 is neither. It’s just an NC Miata (the RX-8 interior actually feels more cramped to me) with a gas guzzling blow up engine.
The LS-X swap? Unless someone really needs a back seat or really can’t stand crappy interior materials it makes a lot more sense to keep the LS-X in the used C5 or C6 it came out of, especially since, even with the LS-X in it, a C5 or C6 is within 150 pounds of a rotary RX-8. It would have been worth it for Mazda to put a better engine in the RX-8, it doesn’t make sense for an individual to.
However, if an LS-X fits in an RX-8 then it will fit in the NC Miata, which uses the same basic platform but weighs 500 pounds less than an RX-8. That would be interesting.
If I had to choose, I would take the Miata, but it would be a close call. I’m a big fan of roadsters, so that definitely sways my choice, especially for a fun car. And the RX-8 is pretty thirsty, while the Miata can return decent mileage if you can manage to drive it reasonably.
But I would drive both, and see which you prefer. Having owned a rotary in the past, I wouldn’t worry about the reliability of the engine, most of the problems I’ve heard about are from people putting too much boost through them, the non-turbo ones have always been very reliable.
I personally have no issue with the power output of the RX-8. I think it comes down to whether your idea of driving a car extends beyond pushing the right pedal to the floor then letting the car do everything else :)
The RX-8’s handling is far superior to anything else I’ve ever driven with a back seat. A WRX does not provide an equivalent experience. A 2003-2008 X handles like a truck in comparison.
Reliability? Some engines do fail, but not a large enough percentage to impact the overall repair frequency in TrueDelta’s survey. Guess what? Some 3.5 V6s in Nissans and Infinitis also require replacement, for oil consumption reasons. At least Mazda has extended the warranty.
The RX-8 has a few other issues, which aren’t terribly expensive to fix:
1. Avoidable: do not stall it / cut it off right after starting a cold engine. This can “flood” the engine, and requires a tow to the dealer for those not able to remove the spark plugs and reprime the engine themselves.
2. Sunvisors are prone to breakage.
3. Tail lights are prone to condensation.
Fuel consumption is poor. But insurance rates are much more reasonable than for an S2000 or WRX. But then Miata insurance rates are also reasonable.
Ground clearance in unplowed snow? You’re out of luck with an sports car there. Get a Forester XT.
Right, but if you buy a used RX-8, there’s no guarantee that the previous owner was as fastidious with the maintenance as is needed. I’d try to buy a new one, just so I would know exactly how well the car has been maintained.
The LSx swap is an awesome idea, but I’ve always heard the heavier V8 ruins the weight distribution.
Sageev – You’ve jumped the shark on this one. The rotary consumes more fuel, but is a wonderful engine in its own right and brings a distinctive sense of motive power to an otherwise bland world of fours and sixes. It’s not perfect, but the RX8 is a far better daily driver than a Miata.
Without question, the Miata is a superior track car, and there is almost nothing I’d rather have (other than the aforementioned sport bike) when the road turns twisty. But throw in some freeway miles, a couple of long trips and the RX-8 becomes the drive of choice between the two. Yes, it’s not as fast as a 350Z, but has its own kind of style and will seat four in a pinch.
Miata or S2000 or sure. The RX-8 is nearly great but it simply has too many issues to be a safe bet. If only they’d put the 2.3 turbo in in and called it the MX-8.
I bought my 2004 RX-8 3 years ago and has been my beloved daily driver (and more recently, autocross weapon) ever since. I’ve not had one problem with it, although the original owner had many warranty claims. The truedelta data will tell you my experience is not out of the ordinary. Heck, even Consumer Reports recommends the car (tho’ not 2004’s). The long engine warranty applies in Canada.
Maintenance is just a non-issue for me. What car fan doesn’t mind cracking the hood every other fill-up to check the oil? Other than that it is just routine stuff (although pricey spark plugs need to be replaced every 50,000 km-ish).
OK the car is not *fast* in the effortless way that a Z-car or Mustang or 335i is. You have to work the car hard to find the speed. But it is still plenty fast for driving on public roads.
The steering, handling, and braking are like everyone says, amazing. The ride is pleasing even for my 80 year old mother-in-law.
As a winter car in Montreal…well, sure. Why not? I was great with snow tires for me in Kingston. Ground clearance is the only issue, and if there is that much snow on the ground you should probably stay home anyways. I never took that advice because I have risk-taking issues. But I never got stuck. A properly-maintained car will have no problem with cold starts. Just do not shut it down when the engine is still cold…it may flood.
Fuel economy is a bit worse than a Mustang. In other words, terrible. Budget accordingly.
Insurance cost is higher than average. Budget accordingly.
Used examples are plentiful and cheap.
The RX-8 is a car with deep wells of personality. I’m in love with my car, although I can recognize that it is not for everyone. If it speaks to you, then go for it. No other car of this price, heck, of any price, offers the same combination of a genuine sports car experience and family car practicality.
Wasn’t there some long rant months ago about cheesecake? I thought it ended with some sort of agreement to keep this site SFW. The bikini clad females seem to be creeping back in lately.
Really this is a matter of personal taste.
RX-8, Miata, Mini, Impreza, he’s just more or less picking an ice cream flavor at this point. Whatever he likes, he likes.
Test drive a few and find out what best suits you.
I’m surprised no one here has mentioned fuel mileage since he specifically asked about it. The RX8 is 16city/22hwy/18combined. The S2000 is 18/25/21. The Miata is22/28/24. Score another one for the Miata I guess? I know someone who drives an RX8, that is one of his biggest gripes is the fuel economy. The other is something about the fuel system priming or something. Says he can’t crank the car up and just back it down the driveway and shut it back off because then there is this long involved procedure that includes disconnecting the battery, reconnecting it and attempting the start the car several times until the fuel system primes itself. He said it’s extensive enough that you have to have another vehicle on site to boost the battery on the RX8. Don’t know how much truth there is to that, but he claims it’s an actual documented procedure in the owners manual and it’s enough to sway me away from the car.
How much time will you be able to spend with the top down if you get the Miata? I have an ’08 Miata and live in NY. I can put the top down for a good 6 months out of the year, but the rest of the time it’s up. The Miata becomes less enjoyable for me then. It’s very noisy and cramped inside with the top up. It would not be an ideal primary vehicle.
Gas milage is great. I’ve only got 5,000 miles on it, but I’ve not had a single problem. Plenty of rattles and creaky noises though.
It is the most fun to drive car I’ve used. Good acceleration. Great clutch and shifter. Awesome handling, and great brakes. Decent ride too.
I don’t autocross or push it very hard, but even a trip to the grocery store is rewarding on a sunny day.
Two words for you. “Chick Car.” This means that “chicks like this car.” Now, as a Miata owner, I can tell you, that is a great thing. Chicks see a Miata and they know that you are confident and don’t care what other people think about you, and that you don’t have compensation issues.
The only drawback to a Miata is that kids like it too. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve pulled up next to a minivan full of tots and chirrens in a parking lot, and they all stare and point, and inevitably, one will walk over and want to explore. So I always say, “Hey, he wants to pretend he’s driving, is that okay? My kids did too…” Think of it as a recruiting tool for the Nation of Men Who Love Cars (our numbers are dwindling.)
The drawback? Well, one day, you’ll get married. And since you’ll still have your “chick car,” your wife will enjoy driving it just like mine does. And you’ll either have to get another one, or a scooter, which pretty much starts the whole process all over again.
So, get the Miata. You’ll love it.
I have pondered the exact scenario for myself. My conclusions:
An RX-8 is a terrible car. There is a good reason the re-sale values are so poor. It sucks. Dramatic engine failure, it doesn’t like to start in the cold (kinda a problem in Canada) and the mileage is brutal for a car with so little power.
The Miata ALL THE WAY.
other alternatives:
Mazdaspeed 3. Loads of power in a great chassis with daily-driver practicality.
350Z (also brutal mileage, but at least it’s got the guts to warrant it.)
WRX, But with low mileage. Reliability is a big concern for these cars.
To avoid:
S2000 – One of the most expensive cars to insure, and brutal in the winter.
If you like the snick-snick feel of the perfect manual transmission then you can’t go wrong with either the Honda S2000 or the Mazda Miata (my preference would be the Honda). The Miata may be a bit more chuckable in the corners, but nothing beats the soundtrack of the S2000’s motor going up and down the rev range…and it’s just as smooth as the RX-8’s rotary without the oil or fuel consumption.
Ground clearance in unplowed snow? You’re out of luck with an sports car there. Get a Forester XT
Ground Clearance. The enemy of all sports car fans living in places with real winters
http://www.rx8club.com
They’re more honest about their favorite car than many model-specific forums.
I love my RX-8 but it’s not without it’s foibles. Mine is an ’05 MT Sport (LSD, HID, stability control) that I got for a good price in 3/06. It’s my daily driver and autocross car (B-Stock). Except for a grind going into 5th at over 3k rpm (warranty replacement of almost all internal tranny parts), it’s been excellent.
If you know how to drive stick, get an MT; more power and automatic 18″ wheels and larger brakes. Get an ’05 or later.
Insurance costs were only slightly more than the ’06 Scion tC it replaced.
Man, all these masses of unwashed spreading utter ignorance about the lack of reliability of the rotary.
If you want credible information, go check out the objective surveys on RX8club.com, and you’ll find that the RX8 is as reliable, if not more so, than most other cars in its class.
There are many members there with 2004 and even 2005 8s that are over 150k miles, with no problems.
It is extrapolated that less than 2% of new gen rotaries have compression issues, based on the surveys of thousands on that site, and that’s probably less than the sludge-o-matic VW, Toyota and Nissan motors that suffer catastrophic failure, as a percentage.
Not only that, but Mazda retroactively gave 8 year/100,000 mile warranties on the motor to all owners, just for peace of mind. This warranty is completely transferable, has no deductible, and requires no forms be filled out.
The RX8 is probably the sleeper sports car of this decade; simply an AMAZING value. While it is not a red light racer, it has sufficient power to get the most out of its best in class handling – handling that simply puts almost any other car, even many exotics, to shame.
Go track one. Until then, you’ll never ‘get it.’
As a triple bonus, it’s a great daily driver, with a tolerable suspension that won’t rattle your fillings, and has a usable back seat.
As for the cold start *problems*, I guess all the Candians on RX8club.com that have pics of their cars running down the road at 20 below zero (fahrenheit) must be photoshopped, and the fact that they’ve had ZERO cold start issues must be flat out lies.
Try to find a car with better handling, more utility for its class, better comfort for its class, excellent fit and finish, and warranty that puts everything but a Hyundai to shame. You will be hard pressed.
The 8 is an amazing car, truly unique, and utterly reliable. With a set of iPike W409s, it’s the best handling RWD car I’ve ever owned in the snow, and better than almost any FWD car with all seasons I’ve owned.
It is designed to burn some oil and it doesn’t get great gas mileage (I average just under 20 in mixed driving), but those are minor issues given its purpose.
The fact that it’s a bargain is icing on the cake.
I’m completely with edgett and ohsnapback on this one. I love all the writing here, but Sajeev, I think you are off base on the RX8.
It never ceases to amaze and amuse me that the critics of the wankel engine are invariably those that have never owned one (and often have never even driven one).
I have owned exactly 100 cars in my life (in 35 years of driving, yeah, I’m old). Several of those have been wankel engines, including multiple Mazdas and also a rare wankel motorcycle, the Suzuki RE5. My current daily driver is a 2007 RX8. To those that have actually owned a RX8, it’s an addiction. It’s my second one.
Yes, the wankel engine doesn’t have as much torque as a piston engine. So what? Rev it. That’s part of the visceral thrill, winding it out to 9000 rpm and hearing it sound like a jet turbine spooling up. Yes, the gas mileage isn’t good, but if gas mileage is a priority, a sports car is not the best choice. The bottom line for maintenance is that the oil needs to be checked regularly, since the wankel engine is designed to use some oil for seal lubrication (about 1 qt/1000 miles). If you keep the oil topped up, the realiability is fine, no worse than a piston engine (Mazda extended the engine warranty on all RX8’s to 100,000 miles for additional peace of mind). Let the oil run dry and bad things happen to any engine (I personally suspect that some of the engine problems have come from people who treat it like a piston engine and never check the oil).
There simply isn’t another car at the RX8’s price point which is as agile or flingable (except maybe the S2000, I have one of those too). It feels like it’s hard-wired to the drivers central nervous system. Driving it makes you feel directly connected to the road. It fits like a glove. It simply feels special, in a way few other cars (at this price) I’ve owned do (S2000, air-cooled 911, RX7). It’s taut without having a punishing ride, and the chassis stiffness is more like a track car. It is just sheer fun to drive.
I think the RX8 more truly embodies Mazda’s concept of “jinba ittai” that they use for marketing the Miata (I’ve had several of those too, absolutely great cars, but in stock form not the same kind of car as the RX8) – ‘horse and rider as one’.
The RX8 is not for everyone. It’s a unique car for particular tastes, for the purist. In Canada, you would definitely want to have good snow or all-season tires, the original equipment rubber is useless in the snow. For those that actually own an RX8 and can speak from experience, the feel and sound of revving the wankel engine to 9000 rpm truly is addicting. Plus used ones are a bargain.
Check out the YouTube video below, a review of the RX8 by Top Gear’s Jeremy Clarkson.
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A bit of an aside about Canada’s winters. Canada’s a big place. There are places in Canada that are south (in degrees latitude) of places in Nevada, California, and Nebraska.
Wrong! the southernmost spot in Canada is on roughly the same lattitude as the northern border of California and Nevada, although it is slightly south of some of Nebraska. That southernmost spot is across the river from Detroit. That said, Vancouver, Canada, which is a couple of hundred miles north of Seattle, and way the hell north of that northern border of CA and NV, is relatively mild, like Seattle, becuase of hte Japanese current.
RX-8, Boxster, Miata. They’re all about agility. But the RX-8 gets by far the worst mileage of the three, because of the design constrains of an engine that has only 3 moving parts. Still, if lousy gas mileage is not an issue, the RX-8, is a wonderfully versatile car, with rear doors and a rear seat that even an adult can actually sit in.
How low can those shorts go.
Thank you for all the comments, everyone.
You’ve given me much to think about, and I’m still very interested in the RX-8. I like the idea of a sports car with usable rear seats, the Miata’s soft-top leaves me a little cold (tee hee!), and the newer hard-top models are out of my budget. Personally, I think that torque is overrated. I ride a torquey twin-cylinder TL1000S, and it’s frustrating to rarely be able to take it past half-redline without worrying about my lisence or the front wheel getting airborne. My idea of fun is a vehicle that I can wring out on a semi-regular basis, and it sounds like the rotary encourages such behaviour.
It’s hard to believe that the RX-8 goes for similar money as a Miata (I’ve been looking in the classifieds at 2004-2005’s with 30-50k miles on them), without there being some sort of huge down side.
My aforementioned bike requires changing the plugs every 10k miles or so (a job of at least an hour), and I just got through changing a $700 shock due to a frame crack, which took most of the weekend, so the idea of checking my oil weekly doesn’t faze me.
What I don’t want, though, is a car that will eat up my budget in repair bills.
I owned a Miata for over 12 years before it got T-boned. It was replaced by an RX-8 which I still own. That’s 18 years of total ownership of these two cars so I am just one rung higher than most that can talk about these two cars.
The Miata is a true sports car. Way more fun to drive but living with it daily because of it’s miniscule size and VERY firm ride is a pain.
The RX-8 is a DD. More room and more forgiving ride.
The Miata is ULTRA reliable and can be beat to death and repaired in you driveway for chump change.
The RX-8 is reliable and can be beat fairly hard and be fixed expensively at your dealer.
Now: The huge issue: That %^$# rotary engine.
Oil hungry, fuel hungry, and no ballz. The computer has this quirk that if you cold start it and shut it off immediately it will not restart. All the owners, the dealers, and the factory know this although officially Mazda denies this. Coming up on six years now, nobody has the cure.
My solution: after the factory warantee ran out, I bought another extended warrantee. In 2014 I’m dropping in an LSx engine.
I’d take a used 350z over this RX8 any day. Sure it looks nice and is fun to drive, but the piss poor mileage, zero torque and oil consumption are not worth the trade off.
Driving a rotary really is a matter of taste. I bought (new) one of the original Mazda rotaries (RX-2) in 1974. That engine was redlined at, IIRC, 7000 rpm and was fed by a now-antique device known as a 4-barrel carburetor, previously found only on hulking V-8s. The secondaries of the carburetor opened up at 4300 rpm, giving you a good kick in the pants like a piston engine “coming on the cam” or a turbo’ed engine coming on boost. Unlike every high-revving piston engine I’ve driven (including the S2000, which I found tiresome), the rotary does not give you the racket and thrashing sense that it might self-destruct as it spins into the nether regions. Lacking any kind of engine management computer, the old RX-2 had a warning horn that went off as you hit the redline. Otherwise, the engine gave no clue that you were over-revving it. My car was thirsty (20 mpg highway, even at 60 mph) and, like all rotaries, needed oil. I owned it for 4 years and the only repair required was replacement of a water pump. That said, engine compression was clearly down by the time I sold it (with 70K miles) and, given the run-up in gasoline prices with the first oil panic, it didn’t seem to me to make financial sense to buy an engine rebuild.
The issue with a used car is that you are buying the previous owner’s maintenance habits. Rotaries are critical regarding oil and not letting them overheat, e.g. from a hose or pump failure.
As the current owner of a roadster (Z3 3.0), I would say that a 2-seater is a different animal than a 4-seat car. And I would also say that, if I lived in Canada, rather than in Washington, DC, I’m not sure I would bother with a softop car.
But those are matters of taste for which you don’t need anyone’s advice. Bottom line: driving a rotary is not like driving a low-torque high-revving piston engine; it’s much nicer. OTOH, if you like lotsa torque coming on low on the rpm curve, a rotary ain’t for you . . . but neither is an S2000. Buy a Mustang or a 350Z.
“For the last four years, the Mazda RX-8 has dominated its class in SCCA Solo competition like no other car — four straight national championships, with only the occasional MR2 Turbo, 350Z, or 968 even sneaking into the top ten.”
http://www.speedsportlife.com/2008/12/21/speed-read-2009-mazda-rx-8-r3/
How come the B&B are all saying the Z overmatches the Mazda? Or are we just talking about drag races? C’mon…
We’re on our second Miata. I love them. But…
Given what you outlined, I would purchase an RX-8. The Miata’s are fun toys. Yes you can daily drive them. We practically do this with our current Miata. But we also have 6 other cars and a motorcycle to fill other duties. When you have a two seater for your primary transportation, you are making a lot of assumptions. You’re assuming you’ll never want to carry very much (though this weekend, I carried a ton of groceries and 100 pounds of dog food in ours). You’re also limiting yourself to 1 passenger. The trunk simply isn’t large enough for a third, not even for a small child.
Reliability is legendary, and the Miata is pretty easy to work on. Timing belts and water pumps aren’t a big deal. Everything is intuitive. The Miata support network, should you have questions or a misstep, is strong.
The Miata’s fuel economy is wonderful. Whenever gas and the speculators get crazy, our CX-7 gets parked and the Miata (and the Fiero, and the Ninja…) get their odometers rolling much faster.
The Miatas are actually quite warm in the winter. I was shocked, when on a bitter January morning, I first drove my Miata in the frigid cold. I quickly learned winter convertible warmth boils down to a very small cockpit, combined with a very capable HVAC unit. And driving a convertible in the rain, with the top up, some soft tunes pouring from the two door speakers, and a loved one next to you, with the pitter patter of the rain dancing on the top…
Well, it’s simply priceless.
Not so priceless is the behavior on rough roads and cowel shake. Yes, I love the Miata. But around here, in Northwestern Chicago, the quivering is relentless. It’s enough to erase my smile every time a bump or rut is hit. And therein lies my biggest gripe, and my strongest reason against the Miata and for the RX-8.
The RX-8 is simply a better overall proposition. Especially if it’s to be your only vehicle.
Others here have done an exemplary job of highlighting the RX-8’s positive attributes. So I’ll just say: I’ve driven the RX-8, and I think it’s a swell car. The engine sings, the chassis dances. As far as maintenance goes, you’re not afraid of getting your hands dirty, so the small amount of extra attention the rotary requires won’t be a big deal. The RX-8 is a unique proposition, very nice looking (IMHO), and handles like nothing else.
And if nothing else, you can fit all of your 3 friends in the photo, rather than having to choose…
The RX-8 fits the bill nicely, its similar to the S2000 in that it has very little torque but thats what brings out the analogies of “4 wheeled sport bike”. In reality the Mazda is built well and as long as you get use to topping off the oil regularly its a sweet car that really does handle exceptionally well. Plus you can haul your friends around and be warm with the hard top…
It’s generally 2004 models that have needed engine replacements.
The RX-8 is slow for a modern sports car – I’d say it actually feels more like a BMW 325i (but lighter, more agile). It’s got that level of refinement and smoothness. However, the Miata trades refinement for excitement, and personally I think it’s a good tradeoff.
The RX-8 is a little boring if you’re not driving hard. You often find yourself driving at a higher speed than you mean to. The Miata is fun at low speeds and it’s hard to accidentally speed, in part due to the noise. It’s less practical but it has a “wheee!” factor that the RX-8 is missing. On the other hand, the RX-8 has perfectly usable rear seats…
The S2000 is not without issues: valve retainers, transmission syncros(early recall), and rear diffs, have all been “hidden” issues.
Plus, the fact that Honda specifies some specific maintenence products/procedures that many, dealers included, ignore because it’s “just a Honda”. Until something breaks that is, then it’s “Oh, you have an S2000…”
All that being said, it is a fantastic car.
BTW my insurance has never been what I consider unreasonable, about on par with a old Acura sedan. Maybe with a few points it would be different.
Like many have said, as long as you have a factory warranty, and going back to the dealer doesn’t get old, then have at it.
BD
Rotaries are a matter of taste. Either you like them or you don’t. If you go rotary, you will have to accept awful fuel economy as part of the deal.
What I don’t want, though, is a car that will eat up my budget in repair bills.
As noted by others, they can be fairly reliable if you pay attention and perform all of the routine maintenance. They will be much less so if you don’t. Proper oil levels are critical, and can’t be taken for granted. Be wary of buying one if you don’t have a good sense of its history, as neglect will catch up with you.
The real issue with rotary ownership is that almost nobody can fix them. The situation gets worse as time goes on, as the guys who were tuning and racing these in the old days are now getting old enough to retire, while younger enthusiasts are not lining up to replace them, so the level of street-level expertise about these motors is declining. On the other hand, the parts are easy enough to get and are reasonably priced, so if you are a good DIY guy, you might be able to overcome aspects of this.
I would strongly suggest that you get to know the local situation with mechanics in your area before buying one. Review owner’s forums for recommendations and go personally check them out before you buy. If you can’t find a good shop or two in your area, consider giving the car a pass.
Sajeev Mehta :
Steve_S : The RENESIS does not have “mad problems”. Speak to people who have owned one if you want the real dish.
Fair enough. That’s because I have spoken to one personally, and his reasons for buying the car are full of “ifs” and “buts” when it comes to its sad performance and questionable durability. You know, relative to a 350Z or any other car in this class.
Makes the RX-8 a tough recommendation after hearing it from the horses mouth!
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That’s just it you spoke to one, I’ve spoken to hundreds and been one. Every car is about compromise unless you have unlimited funds. The 350z gives up 2 seats, interior quality, refinement and precise handling for power. The RX8 gives up torque and power for Porsche Cayman like agility at half the cost.
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Also check out the RX8club board that Sajeev conveniently linked to for the over 100,000 mile club posts, many with over 100k miles and no issues.
Compare the number of “bad” engine threads over there to other model forums. Yeah, its not TrueDelta scientific, but I’m okay with lurking on forums for information.
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How many car forums do you go to where you have lots of thread about “hey nothing wrong with my car just wanted to say that” People search out forums when they have a problems, also most of the problems you’ll see on the RX8 boards will be from 04-06 model years more liekly 04/05. Try going to IWSTI/NASIOC and searching on Broken Ringland or the 370z boards and searching on Oil cooler. Most cars have some sort of issue. You want bullet proof buy a Civic.
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If you want a scalpel over a sledge hammer with an engine as smooth as whipped butter and don’t mind being out run by Cobalt SS then the RX8 (used) is a great choice.
Damn with faint praise much?
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Not at all, the RX8 is not for everyone, you have to appreciate over all performance. If you lust after Mustangs, GTO’s, Camaro’s and Challengers then an RX8 is not for you. Just don’t get in an RX8 driver’s way on a mountain road or autocross because you will only be slowing them up.
To the Original question. Seeing as you are in Canada and will be using this year round (thought you originally said summer car) I’d not get any RWD car. Get a 06 WRX put on some suspension mods and a TBE with accessport and enjoy.
Having driven both, and ending up owning the Miata, I must say this: Rx-8 IS an awesome car. Never had any problem with torque on my test drive; you just wind the wazoo out of it and the power is there. In fact, the very predictability of power output is what makes it so awesome. Smooth and precise. The torque “curve” is as flat as Kansas.
If only it had a liftgate instead of that silly trunk…
Speaking of trunks, Miata can fit an amazing amount of stuff. People seriously overestimate their trunk space requirements.
@Commando1:
My solution: after the factory warantee ran out, I bought another extended warrantee. In 2014 I’m dropping in an LSx engine.
what is the LSx engine, how big, and how difficult will it be to do the transplant? I’ve often thought it woudl be neat to stick a smallish piston engine in the RX-8–smallish because I would not want to compromise the spectacular agility.
I’ve owned a miata (turbocharged, yes it was fun), a S2000 and test drove (without a sales person in the car) a 2007 RX-8. The RX-8 was a great drive. My wife loved the interior, seats and the lack-of-neck snapping acceleration (we test drove a 2002 996 the week before.) The price was right, the chassis feedback was great, and the shifter direct, but (!) the engine sound was not my thing (or my wife’s.) It sounded like a power tool. I test drove an RX-7 years back expecting similar, maybe less muted (do to the lack of a turbo) engine sound but it was more weed wacker than turbine. Very special car but it wasn’t for me. And yes any comparisons to an S2000 are way off, two very different cars.
I end up with a 2007 WRX Sti Limited. More off a Japanese road weapon than a fine tuned driver-centric RX-8.
It’s hard to believe that the RX-8 goes for similar money as a Miata (I’ve been looking in the classifieds at 2004-2005’s with 30-50k miles on them), without there being some sort of huge down side.
The downside is that not every owner knows how to maintain a rotary engine. That is the major reason keeping me from buying a used RX8. As pointed out, the engines are good for 100,000+ miles, but you have to maintain the oil level, which means checking it every tiem you fill up. Otherwise, the apex seals can become oil starved and your engine will be kaput. The other major drawback is the gas mileage, it’s Mustang GT-like. I owned an RX7 several years ago and was reminded of what a wonderfully predictable car that was just yesterday when I got a little too frisky in my Mazda6s. I always knew what that RX7 would do, and it never disappointed me. That gave me the supreme driving confidence that I’ve never found in any other vehicle that I have owned. Based on my test drives of the RX8, it is only better. The 350Z is nice, but highly impractical and not nearly as fun through the turns IMO. The Mustang GT has great oomph and a wonderful throaty engine, but it would not be able to keep up with an RX8 on any course that has turns.
Motor Trend did a comparo (yeah, I know MT) where the RX8 was praised by an F1 driver (can’t remember his name) who was doing the track testing as having the closest steering feel and handling to a race car of all of the cars he tested, a list that included a Porsche 911, Dodge Viper ACR, etc. While they placed the RX8 at or near the bottom of the list based on the track numbers and the opinions of the MT staff themselves, the F1 driver said the RX8 would be his second choice (I can’t remember which of the $100k+ cars was his first). I can also echo the comment that winding the rotary engine up to 7000+ rpms is an aural (not oral, you sickos) pleasure that, while different, is akin to the feeling that i get from hearing the throaty roar from some detroit V8.
The problem for me is that I can’t justify a the cost of a new one, but I can’t trust that the previous owner of a used one knew enough to keep the oil filled.
Steve_S : How many car forums do you go to where you have lots of thread about “hey nothing wrong with my car…
…also most of the problems you’ll see on the RX8 boards will be from 04-06 model years more likely 04/05.
What’s your point? Obviously, every car has flaws. But there are plenty of forums for performance cars where people don’t say their cars are eating motors.
Ok, so he shouldn’t buy 04-05 (maybe 06) models, since Juniperbug clearly stated that he is concerned with maintenance (or other larger) issues. That’s a good point I didn’t glean from a few hours on messageboards.
(Hence why you and others in the B&B keep me honest)
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The RX8 is not for everyone, you have to appreciate over all performance. If you lust after Mustangs, GTO’s, Camaro’s and Challengers then an RX8 is not for you.
Don’t play the American Muscle card. A 350Z, Miata, S2000, etc certainly fits the bill and can be a great car for Juniperbug.
I think Steven Lang has it right, we need to hear what cars Juniperbug drove and what he actually likes. Because he may absolutely fall in love with an RX-8 and nothing I/we say means squat.
Jailbait: If you don’t hit it, somebody else will!
I live in Montreal too and I can tell you the RX-8 is going to be too low to the ground on heavy snow days. You can get by with a RWD BMW 3-series or Merc, which have a bit more clearance and weight.
Also, the rotary in the cold is a bit suspect. Do you want to sit there warming it up every time you start it, so you can actually rev it properly? Because it will bore you to death warming it up as you drive, sticking in the low end of the torque band. It is not an engine that can be redlined COLD, and it’s not an engine that’s fun unless you’re at 9,000 RPM.
In short, I’d get an RX-8 purely as a track/summer car, si tu restes dans la belle province. Pour ce qui est de la rouille, apporte ta voiture chez Metropolitain ou Krown anti-rust. Le sel sur les routes est un problème, point à la ligne, peu importe la voiture de ton choix.
If you can live with FWD, how about an ’06 or ’07 GTI?
Samir – I’m in Michigan, and we get as much snow where I live in the winter as Montreal, and with proper snow shoes, I’ve yet to have a single issue in heavy snow driving with the 8. It is my daily driver, for 4 years now, come rain and come snow. I’ll never forget passing Explorers in 6″ of snow (and I’m talking on the road, with drifts), doing 55, with total confidence, last winter.
As for the oil, I keep two quarts in my trunk at all time, and have yet needed to add more than 1/4 of a quart, and that’s a rarity. After a while, checking the oil becomes part of the bonding with the car, and helps you form a more healthy and rewarding relationship.
One final note: There is no smoother engine at high RPMs in the world than the Renesis. No way, no how. You could literally drive it all day in the sweet spot of 5500 to 8000 rpm, and hitting 9500 rpm doesn’t even feel strained, though you’ll pay in fuel economy, hence the need for discipline. Guys at the track leave it in third and chase down much more powerful cars in the corners. As Jeremy Clarkston said so eloquently, the motor doesn’t feel “as if it runs on anything nearly as coarse as petrol; it feels like it runs on… double cream.”
That statement is best understood if you drive it and wind it up. While you’re at it, try and get the back end to break loose. Good luck.
Johnny Lieberman has a fantastic review of the RX8 in TTAC, which really highlights the strengths of this great car.
ohsnap: Perhaps, but Montreal can get 30 centimeters (18 inches) of snow in a few hours. Then you’re kind of screwed. :/
One final note: There is no smoother engine at high RPMs in the world than the Renesis. No way, no how. You could literally drive it all day in the sweet spot of 5500 to 8000 rpm, and hitting 9500 rpm doesn’t even feel strained, though you’ll pay in fuel economy, hence the need for discipline.
It’s not surprising if you think about how the engine operates. There are no pistons going back and forth and no connecting rods, ergo much smoother operation and much less stress at high rpms.
Sajeev,
Pontiac GTO never made it to Canada due to different bumper regulations.
Samir,
18 inches is 45.7cm, 12 inches is 30.5cm
I think rotary issues are way overstated.
Fact is, this is a Mazda. Mazdas get driven hard. Hang around the Mazda boards as long as I have, and you’ll see it all. Mazda Proteges are apparently oil-thirsty engines that eat pistons for lunch (there are some people on their third or fourth engine, already)… Mazdaspeed3s will drop their guts on the ground after too many launches… Rotaries eat gaskets…
But unlike PriusChat or whatever else out there, most Mazda forums are populated mostly by racers. Autocrossers, track-junkies, street-racers (I’m sure Karesh can chime in on this… we both go to the Mazda forums and are fellow Protege owners)… these people drive cars hard and… well… simply break things… whether they’re easy to break, or not.
I should know… my Mazda drinks about a liter of oil every 3000 miles… or about half-a-liter per hour on the dyno. But I thrash the engine, and I expect it to happen… which is why I carry spare coolant and oil in my trunk and watch my temps every time I go out on track or to the mountains.
Most forumers expect their 50,000 mile warranty to cover 50,000 miles spent sideways with the engine pinging off the limiter. Right.
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Now, consider that exotic high-revving engines from everyone from Audi to BMW to Honda are known to eat oil over time and occassionally blow up, the RX8’s issues aren’t exactly unusual for its class.
Don’t get me started on blown differentials, chewed-up gearboxes (Subies… GT-R… well… actually, almost any turbocharged Nissan) and the like. If it’s breakable, some jackass on some forum somewhere has broken it.
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That said… breaaaathe… my vote goes for the Miata. Get the hardtop, with the 6-speed and LSD… it’s all the car you’ll ever need.
With the roof up, the PRHT does a decent job of mimicking a real car. Wind noise is minimal and sound insulation is decent enough for a sports car. They say the new suspension package tightens it up a lot.
I’m in the same boat as Juniperbug – same age, decent job, single, looking for a fast and reliable car that can handle work and play.
I bought a WRX, and couldn’t be happier. It may not handle quite as well as the Miata, but it will do autocross just fine, thank you very much. AND it has a fantastic engine. Plus, it could easily take on the Montreal winters (something I don’t have to worry about in Texas!)
Get a Mazdaspeed car. Mazdaspeed Miata is the Miata go get with the optional hardtop. Mazdaspeed6 is also quite a bargain.
The 2004-2006 GTO was never sold in Canada although grey market cars do exist for a couple of thousand more than they are worth in the us.
Viggen Saab is awesome.
And if you are a VW fan, consider a last gen AWD TT. Or a grey market import 2004 R32.
To sajeev , Before you dump an any car get all your facts straight…ALL Brand of cars have ENGINE Failures.
And don’t talk about the RX-8 as you know little.
If you are a child who judges a cars WORTH by it’s speed and power then On a track ( one with corners)the RX-8 is as fast as a BMW M3, or a V8 Holden Monaro.
Have you heard about ALL the 09 Subaru Impreza WRX failures, in the US alone some 89, with mileage as slow as 150 and as high as 13,900 Miles!!
Toyota still has the record at 1.5 mil sludge engines, Chevrolet, Nissan V6’s that drink more oil than any Rotary.Porsche and BMW..it goes on and on…