Toyota has been remarkably upfront about its struggles with “Big Company Syndrome.” The fate of Toyota’s predecessor as the world’s largest automaker is an unavoidable example of what awaits giant manufacturers that lose their focus. And yet, as Toyota has replaced GM as the big daddy of car building, it keeps making eerily familiar mistakes. And its no surprise that Toyota’s challenges tend to center around marketing and brand management (hello, Scion). Toyota’s brand is a by-product of its obsession with manufacturing, rather than an independently developed, carefully-maintained image. The trademark Toyota brand qualities of quality and reliability are built on dedication and reputation, not the modern-day alchemy of marketing, sales strategies and brand-pushing. So why is Toyota telling Automotive News [sub] that it’s creating a wholly-owned subsidiary to coordinate global marketing and advertising? And why is Akio Toyoda going to be running the new marketing realm?
This new subsidiary “will handle advertising, sales promotion and global marketing strategy,” explain Toyota spokesfolk. “It will focus on marketing issues globally and help create a unified message.” But where’s the confusion about Toyota’s brand? At least in the US market even Toyota’s competitors agree that the Toyota name is synonymous with industry-leading. And not because you meet the nicest people when your Toyota speaks bold moves like a rock; because getting products right always came before marketing. In this sense, Toyota is almost an anti-brand.
Moreover, Toyota’s steadfast integration of development, production and marketing around each vehicle line has long been held up as one of its keys to success. Marketing information is crucial to development and design, and visa-versa; it was for this very reason that Toyota pioneered its “heavyweight project manager” model. So why create a separate marketingland now? New fiefdoms rarely improve focus, as proven by GM’s internecine fueding during its long decline. Decoupling marketing from the rest of the business feels like another step towards distraction for the world‘s (and now Canada‘s) leading automaker.
Toyota has already started the slip towards GM-hood over the past few years – figuring that people will buy Camrys even if the interiors aren’t as nice as they used to be. They also have to be wary that Lexus doesn’t move to far down market, or Toyota too far up, or they’ll have created two full car lines in competition with each other.
Scion equals Saturn and the same question applies – now that you’ve got it, what do you really intend to do with it?
Now class, what does every great empire in history have in common…
They all played a large role in their own undoing.
It’s unfortunate… Toyotas are now bulbous, bloated vehicles with little personality. Is their reliability still that good?
For years I pined for a Tacoma pickup but now they’re huge and outrageously expensive. The Scions were cute and quirky, but now they’re lard*sses. And poor Lexus – they look like they’re overinflated and thus look like shapeless jelly beans. (Well, except for the IS; that’s a vehicle I still stare at longingly.)
What the hell happened?
“It’s unfortunate… Toyotas are now bulbous, bloated vehicles with little personality. Is their reliability still that good?”
Not any better than most cars.
Honda is going down this road, too. If Toyota is the new Old GM, Honda is the new Old Ford.
I agree with the Toyota-as-new-GM argument, except for one key missing ingredient: The UAW. But how far off can that be?
xB
The picture of the current-generation Corolla is spot on. IMHO, it is worse than its predecessor in every way.
The last excellent Toyota was the 1991-1996 Camry. ToMoCo has been coasting since. Fifteen years ago repair shops rarely saw a broken one, now they’re loaded with them. Instead of hiring GM-style flacks to persuade consumers there is a perception gap Toyota should address the problem.
The problem with the reliability and quality brand is that it’s no longer unique. All cars (at least on the domestic market) are now reliable, quality products. Toyota knows it, and as they watch Hyundai/Kia grab market share, they know consumers know it.
So, on to Plan B. Flounder. Gee, that does sound familiar, doesn’t it.
Edward Niedermeyer: “Toyota Takes Another Step Towards the GM Way”
How? Did they stuff a heavy pushrod V8 into a Camry, stick an SS badge on its ass and advertise it as a “luxury sports sedan?”
spyspeed: “The picture of the current-generation Corolla is spot on. IMHO, it is worse than its predecessor in every way.”
I’m 6’4″ and I can comfortably ride in the back seat of that car (there is headroom and legroom for me).
Gardiner Westbound: “The last excellent Toyota was the 1991-1996 Camry.”
Even if no other, more recent Toyota qualifies, that statement is invalidated by the 1996-2000 Rav4s.
Can anyone think of one compelling reason to pick a Camry over a Fusion?
Today I saw what I believed to be a Buick. The design was completely forgettable, and I wished I was able to forget it. What made the car stand out, though, was an over-sized vinyl landau roof. “Those went out of style years ago,” I said to myself, but this was, after all, a new car. Coming closer I was stunned to see that underneath it all was a nice new Toyota Avalon. Not a factory option, but obviously an after-market add-on. It’s the GMification of Toyota, only from the demand side.
Thinking more on this hideous, hybrid Japanese-American mutant car it suddenly became clear to me: for most Americans, the Avalon IS a Buick, just like the Camry IS an Impala (or is it a Lexus?), and so forth on and on down the line.
My brother in law has an 05 Avalon. He is out of warranty but only has 25k miles on it. He recently had to have a master cylinder and power brake booster replaced. Toyota paid half, so at least this part is better than GM.
A man came into my office a short while back. He had bought a used 05 Avalon. He learned too late that there is a problem with an oil tube that comes loose and sprays all the oil out of the engine. His engine seized and destroyed itself. He believes that it was because of the oil tube problem but Toyota says no way, and told him to pound sand. So now he has a big payment and needs to pay for an new/replacement engine, which will cost several thousand dollars.
This is not the kind of quality that Toyota is known for. Maybe this is why they need marketing now.
Where is the empirical proof that reliability, on the whole has declined? Have other manufacturers caught up in quality? Sure. But If we use Consumer Reports as a guide, the Corolla and Camry appear to be fairly consistent in reliability in recent year to year comparisons with years past. And, I’m sure past generations of these models would not match the crash worthiness of the current cars.
BDB: Can anyone think of one compelling reason to pick a Camry over a Fusion?
Lower depreciation.
Lower depreciation.
If you drive your cars into the ground, and more people will be doing that now in this economy, that doesn’t matter so much.
Did they stuff a heavy pushrod V8 into a Camry, stick an SS badge on its ass and advertise it as a “luxury sports sedan?”
No, but that NASCAR glory is just sitting there…
BDB: Can anyone think of one compelling reason to pick a Camry over a Fusion?
How about piece of mind that the local Toyota dealership will still be around while your local Ford dealer could close at any moment.
Isn’t that the all too familiar approach, that a company that has a variety of sucking products tries to sell this crap by “centralizing”, “boosting” marketing?
Won’t work, as always. Sales & Marketing can help with good products, it will work as a lubricant for getting good products faster in a market. With bad products, nothing but additional costs occur by frenetic marketing.
Excellent engineering plus excellent, clever design is needed. If that is missing, forget about marketing.
“Close at any minute”? Not really. We’re not talking about Chrysler.
In small town America you have to drive much longer to get to a Toyota dealership than you do to get to a Ford dealership, anyway, so even assuming they could “close down any minute” it isn’t really a very compelling reason.
All this talk of the ‘GMification’ of Toyota is more wishful thinking on the part of some folks than actual fact. There is no reason to believe that Toyota is on a road to where GM is now. To conclude that they are is to ignore the fundamental differences in the culture of both companies.
Did they stuff a heavy pushrod V8 into a Camry, stick an SS badge on its ass and advertise it as a “luxury sports sedan?”
Yes, it’s called the Corolla XRS. No V8. They shoved a Camry engine and crappy automatic transmission that can’t find the right gear into a Corolla, added some wings and badges and called it a sport sedan.
Strange move. If you ask me, Toyota’s marketers have been brilliant – they’ve kept public perception of the company above the actual quality of the vehicles, and convinced the world that they’re a responsible and friendly company. I do think they deserve some of their green accolades, but a masterful – and subtle – PR campaign helped.
GM could’ve done all the same green things as Toyota but with its mess of a PR department it wouldn’t have made a difference.
It’s not something I would change if I were in charge of Toyota.
BDB :
July 28th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
” Lower depreciation.
If you drive your cars into the ground, and more people will be doing that now in this economy, that doesn’t matter so much.”
I would ordinarily agree with you, except I got hit by a truck and had my vehicle totaled. If I had been driving a Chevy of similar vintage and original purchase price, I’d have gotten thousands less.
Sometimes it’s not up to you when you stop driving your vehicle.
If I had a three-year-old Yukon Denali get totaled by someone else, I’d be pretty upset about the $20,000 depreciation.
Blenders on four wheels.
I’m waiting for the Toyota Osterizer to come out.
Drab plastics, dowdy exterior design, a precipitous fall in quality, blandness through and through…
…not a single car in their entire lineup that elicits anything other than an at rest pulse.
Oh what a feeling!….Toyawnda.
I would ordinarily agree with you, except I got hit by a truck and had my vehicle totaled. If I had been driving a Chevy of similar vintage and original purchase price, I’d have gotten thousands less.
Always always always ALWAYS get gap insurance!
But I believe Ford resale values are improving, regardless. Especially since the Fusion/Milan is almost entirely trouble-free.
I would ordinarily agree with you, except I got hit by a truck and had my vehicle totaled. If I had been driving a Chevy of similar vintage and original purchase price, I’d have gotten thousands less.
Wouldn’t you still get enough money to replace that Chevy with a near-identical one? Insurance is meant to make you whole after an accident, not profit off of unfortunate circumstances, no?
BDB : Can anyone think of one compelling reason to pick a Camry over a Fusion?
All of the quality issues I had with my last two Fords and the crappy dealership experiences. I’ve lost confidence in the brand. Besides, I’d spend a bit more cash and go for a Genesis.
“Toyota Takes Another Step Towards the GM Way”
You mean suicide?
I think I can hear the champagne corks popping at Hyundai’s headquarters.
This move by Toyota doesn’t have anything to do with GM or strategy or lost focus. It’s all about the money baby.
It’s the first wave of a response to Hyundai who has set up a Hyundai owned company to act as it’s captive full-service advertising agency. Through which they will plan and buy media, produce all types of advertising from TV spots to brochures to websites all while saving mucho dinero in today’s rapidly deflationary market for advertising and promotional services.
This structure will allow Toyota to flex their negotiating muscles with their advertising agencies, media buying and production companies who they probably think are overpaid and underperforming in the current market environment If their current vendors don’t play ball they will start competitive groups to do the work instead.
You know, I’ve noticed a trend as of late on various blogs/forums. Most of the comments seem to harken back to the mid 90s Camry and how solid they were built. The ES of that same vintage, while not very entertaining, was so well built it put cars that cost 3 times as much to shame.
I’m not going to dive too far into detail, but the current gen Camry and Corolla don’t excel at anything. Toyota delayed the Corolla launch a year to tweak it, but for what I have no clue. Certain MYs of the current gen V-6 Camry aren’t even on the CR recommended list, while the car as a whole offers up nothing over the competition.
No, the Fusion will not hold its re-sale compared to that of the Toyota, but there’s a lot more to a car purchase then worrying about what you are going to do with it 5 years down the road.
“But If we use Consumer Reports as a guide”
Haha.. Consumer Reports is a joke. Consumers tend to be more bias than your normal writers!
As for evidence… Toyota is still top for initial quality last I checked, but just a few cogs behind was Ford and then Honda. Toyota has had a few “issues” the past few years but who hasn’t… oh thats right, old toyota. So if you go from being about as wonderful a machine possible for reliablity to pretty darn good you’ve lost something.
Frantz:
I’m not advocating utilizing the publication as a resource. My response pertained to the statements made by mjal.
The last excellent Toyota was the 1991-1996 Camry.
I think the following cars built during those years also qualify:
Celica 91-94
Corolla 93-98
Even me, being an openly anti-Toyota fan, can see those were truly good cars. That Camry had the right styling, that still looks good today (like the 1st gen Taurus, which they copied for the 97-00 Camry). Its dash looks quite outdated today, however, similar for the Celica. I’d buy the Celica or the Camry for myself. On the Corolla, being nice and all, I’d rather pass.
I’ve said that Toyota is the new GM many times in this site. Also read some statements given by the new Toyota US CEO on automobilemag.com and get to the same conclusion.
This company is the next GM. How they will manage their problems once they get there is what will make the difference.
Now class, what does every great empire in history have in common…
They all played a large role in their own undoing.
Add to that, as history/years moves on, the rise/decline cycles are faster… Hyundai is already on the rising.
I’ll say it this way…looking at all of the new Toyotas on the lot these days makes me more determined than ever to keep my 1997 Tercel! Heck, it even has cloth inserts on the doors! I’m so very disappointed in Toyota…I’m even considering (down the road) the new Fiesta when it finally arrives here in the States after my Fusion runs its course (and the way it’s holding up, that might be a while…I genuinely like my Fusion).
A friend of mine replaced his wife’s POS Sunfire with a Corolla XRS last year. I looked at it and thought “meh”. It looks “sporty”, but sporty cars to me don’t come with automatics and Fisher-Price plastic interiors. I was glad to get into my 6 year old Jetta after sitting in the brand new XRS.
All of the quality issues I had with my last two Fords
What models were your last two Fords?
BDB: “What models were your last two Fords?”
Why? Does it matter?
His last two Fords were unsatisfactory. Is he somehow obligated to continue sampling all of Ford’s models until he finds the good one?
No. So, no, it doesn’t matter. He’s done with Ford. They had two chances to satisfy and blew it. The natural result of failing to satisfy the customer is loss of the customer. And, often enough, loss of the customer’s friends and relatives as customers.
It’s unfortunate… Toyotas are now bulbous, bloated vehicles with little personality. Is their reliability still that good?
According to actual, objective data, yes. Their PPV rates have been falling just as everyone else’s has. The problem is that a) they were already really low and b) they have had teething problems that, given a normally low PPV, show up like a lightbulb in the dark. This isn’t new: outside their core competencies, they’ve always had teething problems: the 4Runner (V8, notably), every time it’s refreshed, has about a six-month hiccup; the V6 Camry and Sienna suffer similarly. But the Corolla, Yaris and Prius, 4-cyl Camry and Lexuses maintain the level of reliability you’d expect from the brand.
There’s a subjective meme making the rounds about how their quality has slipped dramatically, which is emphatically not the case. The problem is that, like most memes (eg, “Iraq has WMDs”) there’s a tendency to exaggeration and hyperbole, such that the original truth is lost.
This is a problem, but not a technical one. It speaks to exactly the same troubles every marketing firm has: that the speed of rumour through and the level of integrity in journalism has suffered greatly.
A lie can be around the world (especially a sexy one) before the truth has it’s boots on.
Another point I’d like to make is that car people can be awful stodgy about things like build quality and theoretical reliability.
People get an idea of what quality means and it sticks in their head. You hear this whenever someone mentions how important a solid door thunk or soft dash is to their perception of a product’s quality.
The problem with this line of thought is that apparent and actual quality are very different things. Yes, Toyota doesn’t use soft plastic for the dashboard any longer and the doors might close with a little more of a clang, but it doesn’t bear out in how the car actually holds together.
I’ve spent time in both a “good” old Corolla and Camry and the modern “bad” ones. The ergonomics of the new car (big buttons, tall seats, better seat design, padding where it matters) make them entirely more pleasant than the ass-on-the-floor older designs. Sure, the old cars had soft dashboards. I didn’t touch the dashboards daily. I didn’t sit on them. I didn’t hunt-and-peck for controls in the blank areas of plastic. The new cars were much easier to live with and, subjectively, much better cars unless–and this seems to be the only failing–you stroke the dash and slam the doors.
I’d also like to make the point that, among enthusiasts, the Camry and Corolla have never, ever gotten much respect. The vaunted 1990s models were derided as too small, to tinny, too slow. Even then they didn’t win magazine comparos regularly and were derided for their mundane design. But through the lens of history, and from the comments and feedback from people who had to own them, as well as contemporary Luminas and Passats and Tauruses and such, they turned out to be the better car. In retrospect.
Objectively, Toyota (and Honda, and Nissan, and all the Japanese makes) did weaken in quality in the early 2000s when currency pressure forced a decontenting of their cars. But that was nearly ten years ago, and the hit wasn’t particularly noticeable.
Honestly, it really seems like the “Toyota = Falling Quality” meme is more in the minds of web-based pseudo-journalists than in actual fact.
Lets face it-when the new Malibu is rated highest in JDs Quality survey against all midsizers, and quite honestly a notch above in exterior styling,interior styling, MPG, and Powertrain Warranty with free roadside assistance, if you do not at least test drive and compare to the rice burners–YOU ARE NOT MAKING AN INFORMED DECISION-Bowtie Pride is back and coming on STRONG!!!!!
Even if no other, more recent Toyota qualifies, that statement is invalidated by the 1996-2000 Rav4s.
Or any Lexus IS or LS. Or the current RAV/4, which really is very, very good. Or the current Sienna. Or the 4Runner. Or the Tacoma.
Actually, there have actually been quite a few class-leading or -competitive Toyotas, haven’t there?
sillyp: “Toyotas are now bulbous, bloated vehicles…”
I happened to notice that the base Malibu is longer than the Camry and weighs over 100lbs more and if they used that extra size and weight to provide more interior room, well, damned if I could find it.
—
Let’s stop for a minute and look at the Big Picture. Does anyone here really think Toyota is going to file for Chapter 11 (or however you do it in Japan) before GM (which just received a gazillion dollars and is lined up to take more) takes a run at a Chapter 7?
Heard an interview with Buzz Aldrin on NPR the other day. He told the interviewer that he faced his hardest challenge after he returned to earth. Let’s face it, he said (paraphrasing), what are you good for after you’ve been to the moon?
Toyota started as the little company that could, learning its lessons well from the giants of Ford and GM. There was a time when both were the leaders in quality and the world was at their feet. Toyota’s problem now is it has become the target for the competition; a position which becomes harder and harder to defend thanks to the hordes of reactionary buyers who won’t buy a new Corolla unless it reminds them of the previous model. This leads a company to play it safe, producing ampliances with little or no soul in them.
I’ll believe Toyota is slipping when it pays more attention to the whims of its stockholders and not its customers.
Frantz :
“But If we use Consumer Reports as a guide”
Haha.. Consumer Reports is a joke. Consumers tend to be more bias than your normal writers.
Really, so show us another publication or company that reports such a comprehensive list of models’ reliability going back 10 years or so. Oh, and one that does not receive income from its advertisers.
And what are “normal” writers? And over time, why would a consumer be more biased to one particular brand over another if the former suffers less than acceptable reliability?
“comprehensive list of models reliablity going back 10 years” based on what non mechanical stupid americans think. It does not take into account if people care for their vehicles nor is it based on a standard list of expectations. I’m not saying a dodge and toyota are equal, but which one do you think, on avg, recieves more care? Which one is more likely to be owned by a responsible person who brings their car into a proper garage when the factory recomends? These things do in fact make a huge difference in a cars quality as it ages.
Normal writers are people who are more absorbed in the automotive world. Frankly I’d rather read and take from the blogs on TTAC, even when I disagree, than pretend avg consumers have any real clue, which is the idea behind CR.
His last two Fords were unsatisfactory. Is he somehow obligated to continue sampling all of Ford’s models until he finds the good one?
If my last Hyundai was a 1986 Excel, I’d be an idiot to write off the present day Sonata based on that experience.
Does anyone here really think Toyota is going to file for Chapter 11
No. Because the Japanese government will not allow one of its automakers to go Chapter 11 ever, period, full stop.
NoSubstitute is correct – reliability is no longer unique. Toyota and Honda used to be the only makes that could actually claim to be more reliable than anyone else. For a long time, it worked.
But now, Hyundai is coming on strong in the public mind as a reliable car, and even the D3 are improving – not caught up yet, but improving.
Soon, selling reliability will be no more a competitive edge than selling cars with automatic transmissions, or electric self-starters. Toyota is looking at the fact that when reliability becomes ordinary, they no longer have a brand.
BDB
Can anyone think of one compelling reason to pick a Camry over a Fusion?
Fusion is hecho en Mexico. Camry is hecho en America.
Frantz: So let’s get this straight – An average Joe who plucks down $25,000 of his hard earned income for his Dodge will care for his car less than the next door neighbor who’s spent the same money on a Toyota? Where is this hypothesis coming from? And I guess CR readers are responsible but stupid and just don’t know anything about cars. Is this your opinion or is it based on fact?
Can anyone think of one compelling reason to pick a Camry over a Fusion?
Fusion is hecho en Mexico. Camry is hecho en America.
OK, I thought it doesn’t matter, free trade, by the best product, etc? That’s what I hear from people a lot on here.
PennSt8 :
July 29th, 2009 at 2:06 am
You know, I’ve noticed a trend as of late on various blogs/forums. Most of the comments seem to harken back to the mid 90s Camry and how solid they were built. The ES of that same vintage, while not very entertaining, was so well built it put cars that cost 3 times as much to shame.
The 1992-1994 Toyota Camry, especially in V6 trim, was arguably the best built sedan, with the highest quality, most serene, quiet, and silky smooth ride, ever constructed for the money.
I remember driving in a friend’s, who we had mercifully ragged on for “turning Japanese,” for the first time, and just being in awe of the quality. It was surreal.
Toyota has lost their reason for being. Based on their current quality, materials used, and the other attributes of their cars, declining reliability and durability, they are now overpriced, overhyped, purposeless vehicles when stacked up to the better field of competitors.