Police in Frankston, Australia used automobile seizure laws this weekend to impound a toy motorcycle belonging to a little girl. While under her father’s supervision, Laney Frankland, 5, had been riding in circles around a reserve near the end of a neighborhood cul-de-sac on a 49cc motorbike. Police arrived on the scene late in the afternoon to tell the little girl that she was not supposed to be riding in that location. The officers then summoned a tow truck to take away her bike. The girl ran to her mother. “I thought she had hurt herself,” Tracey Frankland explained in an interview with 3AW Radio. “She came back and she was hysterical. Her face was bright red and tears were pouring down her face. Now she thinks the police are bad.”
Laney Frankland has been riding toy motorbikes since she was two years old. Her parents gave her the new 49cc model just six months ago. Tracey Frankland explained to 3AW that this seized bike was worth $400 but that police would only return it six months from now if an immediate payment of $550 was made.
Police in the state of Victoria have used so-called “hoon” laws to generate more than $3 million in revenue from such payments. These statutes give police the sole discretion to impound any vehicle an officer believes has been used in an anti-social manner. There is no appeal once the car is seized.
“The new legislation allows police to immediately take hoons off our roads, making them safer for everyone,” Victoria Police Superintendent Peter Billing said in a statement after the anti-hoon law took effect in 2006.
Frankston has been at the forefront of seizures, going so far as to set up a toll-free hotline to allow anyone to call in and arrange for police to confiscate a vehicle. State law even allows seizures based on hearsay evidence. Tracey Frankland does not believe that her daughter was turned in by a neighbor as the bike did not cause any disturbance and she has never heard any complaints.
“It’s not noisy at all,” Tracey Frankland said. “People think it’s gorgeous.”
Victorias youngest hoon (3AW Radio (Australia), 8/13/2009)
Pretty good synopsis of what happens when you are a SUBJECT of a government instead of a CITIZEN over a government.
Menno, I’m proud to be a subject of the United Kingdom, just like I’m sure you’re proud to be a citizen of the United States.
No political system is better than the other. I could spin off many horror stories of personal liberties being eroded in the United States, but I won’t.
This is just an example of someone taking a law to its illogical conclusion, nothing more.
“Now she thinks the police are bad.”
Better to learn it sooner rather than later.
If you want to drive like a reckless idiot with no disregard for other’s safety, drink and drive, etc., then you have to become a cop. Otherwise the anti-hoon laws will get you.
It’s easier for a college dropout with a gun to take your car than for his government provided car to be taken away.
I’ve personally never been screwed with by the cops like this little girl has, just the standard revenue generating speeding tickets. I’m just jealous that I actually have to do well at my job and watch a 401(k) fluctuate instead of farting around in a Crown Vic with a defined benefits pension, PPO, and the FOP having my back, when, for example, I get drunk and beat the crap out of a waitress.
+1 Katie!
Nothing to get worked up about, just as you say, local cops taking a law to its illogical conclusion.
No Katie. This is first about a BAD law. Hopefully in the US this would be unconstitutional, but with judges that rule from the “fullness of their experiences” instead of what the Constitution says, who knows? The police should not have the authority to impound the vehicle without any right of appeal by the owner. And they should not be able to do it on hearsay, for God’s sake.
Second even if this was a good law, this would then be an instance of police abuse of said law, not just taking it to an illogical conclusion.
Makes me wonder if the Aussie cops have an off-the-record quota for seizures.
re: windswords:
The UK, at least, is much less corrupt than the US. There when cops drive like idiots and kill people they go to jail, and when they get busted by speed cameras they get tickets. That does not happen in the US.
US seizure law is, if anything, worse than anything Australia has. This motorbike was at least on public property. In the US the police can break into your house and take your stuff without any trial. Look up “forfeitures and seizures” and “no-knock warrant”, and check this out http://www.cato.org/raidmap/ .
The US has to sink down to Mexico and worse to find countries that make our justice system and especially our police look good.
Well, Katie, since we Americans voted ourselves into being SUBJECTS of an overarching government starting in 1932, it’s kind of a moot point.
One small example of the beginning of the end for the United States: It was literally only days after FDR took the white house, and he ‘dictated’ by fiat, that US Citizens could not hold gold.
Once the gold was seized from what were citizens, the government revalued it (devalued the money). So, first, Americans’ rights were trampled and property seized in exchange for paper money, then stolen from again when the paper money was declared to be worth even less. Inflation has continued this “fine tradition” of theft from the people (which is what it amounts to).
Either we Americans live in a nation of LAW, or of man. It’s like being pregnant; either you are, or you aren’t.
“No state shall make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts…”
Article 1, Section 10, United States Constitution.
Merely used as toilet paper since 1933.
And yeah, these aussie cops were total asses. They deserve to be hated and disrespected.
+1 with no_slushbox.
Look at this:
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20090609.htm
Just like in Nazi and Soviet times; may as well get political prisoners to work making things for the regime (shoes/boots in this internment camp, by the look of things). Yep; it was built under the prior administration. So, you thought two sides of the same coin were different coins, maybe? (I’ve only been saying this for, oh, THIRTY YEARS).
Thanks for mentioning us here in Australia!
Wasn’t there a cop in the US who arrested someone at the door of his own home???
Police can be stupid (someone used that word) anywhere when given the chance.
The impound laws in Australia were specifically designed to stop people killing each other, or worse; risking other innocent bystanders, Baruth style, on the streets.
The majority of the community in Australia approves.
(Majority = a technical term meaning most people voted for it despite constant and tedious carping from the sidelines.)
Criminy!how can those guys sleep at night?! Chief Wiggam stuff.
Tracey Frankland does not believe that her daughter was turned in by a neighbor as the bike did not cause any disturbance and she has never heard any complaints.
The kind of curtain-twitcher who would phone such a thing in wouldn’t complain. They wouldn’t even raise the subject. I’d suspect it was phoned in by a neighbour who thought it was either inappropriate, noisy (and a 49cc bike can be noisy, if the time is right) or just likes begrudging other people.
That said, that there’s no appeal is the real problem. Police should be able to get people off the streets if there’s a possibility of danger, but there should be a check on that power. That there isn’t is kind of telling about how much people don’t give a damn about local politics.
Seriously, if there’s any level of government you should be afraid of, it’s the regional and especially the local ones. National governments don’t care about you and are often too addicted to opinion polls to do anything truly harmful. The smaller the jurisdiction, the more problematic it can get.
And if you think local government is bad, hell hath no fury like a neighborhood “values” committee.
“No political system is better than the other. I could spin off many horror stories of personal liberties being eroded in the United States, but I won’t.”
Feh. When you can point to one written, enforceable guarantee that UK subjects have for any fundamental rights, I’ll be impressed.
Here in the states, our Bill of Rights specifically bars the police from taking property without compensation, and guarantees speedy due process for owners of seized properties, just like this case.
To be blunt, this would be an infringement of constitutionally-guaranteed fundamental rights in the United States, but everywhere else, it’s just business as usual.
49cc motor quiet? Okay…
No appeal, and seizures based upon hearsay are serious problems, theoretically prevented by the US Constitution – Amendments IV, V, and VI.
The fact that corruption occurs in the US doesn’t mean the law isn’t on the side of the citizens.
Apparently the anti-hoon law isn’t unconstitutional by Australian standards? If not, then the citizens need to be very careful.
Does no one else wonder why a child was being allowed to race a noisy gas-powered bike up and down a residential street? This is illegal in most states in the US. I think the seizure was appropriate. Further, the parents should be charged with child neglect.
Here is the law in the US on forfeiture; with civil forfeiture, and the legal fiction that the property has committed the crime, you have no rights:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/background/forfeiture/
Thank the bipartisan war on drugs, along with good old local government greed.
menno:
I wish more conservatives would stick with CATO when it comes to civil liberties, not just economics.
On the other hand, I would much rather have union, covering up, power hungry cops to deal with than agents from Blackwater Xe, which, like other security contractors, has been seeking domestic contracts.
The US military, whose personnel don’t have unions and face the stricter scrutiny of Court Marshall, but who also don’t face a profit motive, is a very good example of people acting very well given the circumstances.
The “Constitution is dead” thing is getting old.
Some would say the Constitution has been worthless since Jefferson’s Louisiana Purchase.
And slavery in spite of the Bill of Rights was not a very honest following of the Constitution either.
Speaking of slavery, ask people in the south about Lincoln if you really want to hear about a brutal totalitarian war criminal president with no respect for the Constitution. Nothing in the Constitution prohibits secession, but many provisions of the Constitution prohibit the President brutally crushing it under martial law. Yet I am happy that the union was kept together.
The Patriot Act and TARP have been horrible for the Constitution, and they both came from irrational panic. Yet all that is offered now is irrational panic, like the horribly ironic “Keep the government out of my Medicare.”
People need to relax, actually read the Constitution, and stop being so afraid of everything. “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
We will not get Presidents that respect the Constitution until we have voters that cannot be manipulated into voting against someone for being soft on crime, drugs or terror because he respects the Constitution.
Um, no offense guys, but in my book her parents are lucky to have avoided jail time. They put a 5 year old girl on a motorcycle? A five year old? Really?
That’s not just stupid, it’s reckless endangerment of the minor they are entrusted to protect. And now her parents are teaching her that the cops are the bad guys. Yeah, they’re really setting up their daughter for success in life.
Surely the officer could have issued a ticket or fine and explained to the parents that the place for the operation of such a vehicle is on a closed race course (such as a professional go-kart track) and not on a residential street. Better that a child learn that the place for driving a little race bike is on the track at an early age instead of having him/her developing irresponsible driving behaviors that will only escalate into later life. I think what was lacking in this case was “community policing”. By that I mean enforcement of the law by officers that live in, and therefore have a personal stake in the area they patrol.
What was a 5 year old girl doing riding a gasollne powered motorcycle by herself, even if it was small?
Does no one else wonder why a child was being allowed to race a noisy gas-powered bike up and down a residential street?
Well, yes and no. I thought about that, and it really depends on the judgment of the parent and the child. For example, I can trust my son, who’s nearly four, to ride a bicycle safely, and thusly I leave him about a twenty- to thirty-foot allowance ahead of me when we go out. My neighbour’s son is the same age, would happily roll into traffic and thusly gets kept on a short leash.
In two or more years I could see him riding a small powered bike. I rode a lawn tractor about the same age and didn’t run over anything.
Children are individuals. People forget this, and try to parent down to the lowest common denominator. Most kids can walk to the corner store and play on the playground without supervision because their judgment is reasonably sound, but if you were to let your child go to the playground alone, you’d be risking someone calling Child Protection Services on you. That we practically tie up our children in fear of any possibility of harm is a terrible failure of modern parenting, and is going to cause these kids real problems when they get older and have no ability to assess risk.
This girl might actually be a responsible rider and her parents might be the type to encourage that and I’d potentially agree with them, while some neighbourhood curtain-twitcher might object on principle.
Now the point is that we don’t know enough to say one way or the other.
No donut shops in Frankston, Australia?
Reckless endangerment? Look at the history of many successful racers – they often start out karting at a very early age. Do we know if this girl wore a helmet or gloves? Do we know what her competency level is? Do we know what the governed speed on that bike is? Context please. And what is this ‘entrusted to protect’ construction? Entrusted by who – the organs of The State? Plus the cops taught that girl that they are bad guys. At age 5, their action looks exactly like theft. Actually, at age 58, it looks like theft to me. It is a grossly disproportionate response.
As far as I’m concerned, Ambulancechaser provided the best comentary on this story.
Didn’t anybody else notice:
While under her father’s supervision, Laney Frankland, 5, had been riding in circles around a reserve near the end of a neighborhood cul-de-sac on a 49cc motorbike… The girl ran to her mother. ”I thought she had hurt herself,” Tracey Frankland explained in an interview with 3AW Radio. “She came back and she was hysterical. Her face was bright red and tears were pouring down her face.
She ran to her mother? Where was her father, the one who was supervising her? Maybe the 12th beer had put him out and he was no longer supervising her effectively. Whatever the reason, the parent’s story sounds rather fishy to me. I agree that the police should not have siezed the bike like they did, but to paint these people as honest hard-working people bothering no one is very hard to swallow as well. A 49 cc motor on one of these little toy bikes is hardly quiet. Sounds to me like the parents weren’t providing proper parental oversight of their 5-YEAR OLD daughter’s activities.
She ran to her mother? Where was her father, the one who was supervising her?
If I’m out with my son and another kid swipes his toy or he falls and does himself some harm, and he’s upset about it, he’ll come to me. We’ll go home and he’ll actually get upset a second time when he sees his mother.
I could totally imagine the child coming home with the father and crying to mum anyways, at least in this situation.
IMHO I agree that a 5 year old (in general) is too little to be riding on even a 49cc motorcycle. IIRC, can’t those mini bikes hit 40mph? That is enough to kill an adult with or without gear.
In an, I’m sure, unrelated note, NWA record sales have increased in the Frankston, Australia area…details forth coming.
I agree with psarhjinian’s comments. Just to add to a couple of them: My 2 year old refuses to be comforted by anyone except his mother, so I don’t find that part of the story suspicious. Unfortunately, sometimes the only cure for busybody neighbours is to move. When I lived in the ‘burbs, there was a guy at the end of the street that called bylaw to report infractions so often that they stopped taking his calls. It was like a hobby to him.
With a small person like that on board that bike should do 35mph and possibly 40mph. And it’s loud as hell. Think of a 49cc chain saw. That girls parents are idiots.
KatiePuckrik :
August 13th, 2009 at 8:56 am
No political system is better than the other.
First I was shocked at your comment, but then now I’m not to think about it. Just one friendly question, have you ever heard of North Korea, the Soviet Union or East Germany?
Anyway… I bet someone in the U.S. Congress or even the White House is eyeing this type of law.
Wow, you Cato and Mises guys need to lay off the coffee. Wayyyy to much cafeine…
This is only one side of the story. I bet the cops have a different view.
Maybe it is a case of organized government confiscation to boost revenue.
Maybe the father acted like a jerk after being warned by the cops.
What bugs me is the usual one-sided reporting that all-to-often goes on.
One of the best inventions was the cameras mounted on the cop cars dash. Some of the clips are downright hilarious.
Cops should also wear some digital recording device for their own protection. (As an aside, my guess is Obama would have done even more backpedalling if the Professor had been recorded…)
I’ve had many, many tickets and warnings over the years. Never got a ticket I didn’t deserve. I always treated the cops with respect and I’ve never had a problem. Its funny how folks run off at the mouth about cops, but just wait until these folks are in serious trouble. Then the cops are like the second coming…
And, oh yeah, for the Cato folks, I fight every ticket (even parking) in court as a matter of principal. I win some, I lose some, but I’ve never had any repercussions from the police.
Here in the states, our Bill of Rights specifically bars the police from taking property without compensation, and guarantees speedy due process for owners of seized properties, just like this case.
I once had my car towed while I was inside a Denny’s. The tow company said it was parked in an illegal spot, and I said it was legally parked in another spot. Of course the evidence of any crime had been tampered with, the car itself was gone. Faced with a $100/day “holding fee” there was absolutely no way I could afford not to get the car out of impound while arguing, and a condition of doing so was to sign an admission of guilt. Maybe a lawyer could have got me out of this, but the Bill of Rights certainly didn’t stand up for me that day.
Britain can’t talk to America about anything, in this regard.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106683
1984, anyone? Which nation has the most cameras constantly fixed on the population? Britain.
I’m just saying, pot – black. Kettle – black.
As for North Korea, Iran, etc., – pot & kettle not only black, but broken. Unusable.
A few years ago I was sitting at my computer about 11:00 PM when I started to hear a couple of mini-bikes. The noise from the bikes continued to about 1:00 AM. Since I was up and working in an enclosed home the sound didn’t bother me. I had driven past these very young kids having a great time playing with their new mini-bikes in the afternoon and they were 2 blocks away.
But I am sure the noise bothered neighbors living on the same street and same block.
Shortly after this Phoenix had a new poorly written law saying unlicensed drivers couldn’t ride motorized 2 wheel vehicles in the city. Politicians said the law was for safety but of course it was actually because of noise.
Because these kids had parents with sh*t for brains a lot of kids lost the opportunity to play with both gas and quiet electric motorized vehicles and a lot of merchants lost business because people stopped buying these toys.
KatiePuckrik :
No political system is better than the other.
Like North Korea or Zimbabwe???
Criticism of a fellow western nation’s civil liberties and police practices can be intense but respectful. But there are some systems that deserve contempt and are definately worse.
As a yank who visits Canada, I consider many of their law enforcement practices excessive, while I find their sentencing practices (for those convicted of a crime) pathetically weak. I respect Canadian differences, however.
I see the US trending that way (unfortunately).
SherbornSean and zoneofdanger,
Please understand the difference between a “motorbike” and a motorcycle. You make it sound like she was riding a Twin-V Harley! My walk behind lawn mower probably has more HP than this girls bike. I’d be surprised if it can even reach 20 MPH. And if it can go faster a lot of them governors that parents can set the top speed.
Anyway, you are using the safety angle to cloud the real issue: Police should not be able to confiscate property without due process and the right of appeal, and certainly not on hearsay. The over $500 fee is a revenue grab pure and simple with a little thrown in for the tow truck operator, who probably has a no-bid contract deal because he donated money to a politicians campaign.
psarhjinian:
“Children are individuals. People forget this, and try to parent down to the lowest common denominator…That we practically tie up our children in fear of any possibility of harm is a terrible failure of modern parenting, and is going to cause these kids real problems when they get older and have no ability to assess risk.”
Thank you for bringing this up. I have this battle with my wife in regards to our almost 7 year old all the time. She wants to protect him from EVERYTHING. I want to teach him to take care of himself and learn responsible behavior. The other day I showed him how to use my jigsaw to cut a peice of wood. Of course he wore safey glasses and was shown the proper way to hold it and use it. My neighbor has a “junior” size dirt bike that he lets his 5 year old son ride. To think that kids used to go off into the woods with a loaded gun to go hunting (sometimes with dad and sometimes without)…
It could have been worse. In Vancouver, the RCMP would have first Tasered the tyke.
“It’s not noisy at all,” Tracey Frankland said. “People think it’s gorgeous.”
My dog doesn’t bark at night!
This particular breed has no doggy smell!
I was only doing 59 officer!
Yeah, right.
Maybe a lawyer could have got me out of this, but the Bill of Rights certainly didn’t stand up for me that day.
The Bill Of Rights does comparatively very little to protect you from other people or groups of people who are not in the Federal (or State) government. It’s a cultural blind spot in the United States: limit the power of and trust in government but place effectively much less limited trust in people, local government and NGOs.
Most countries try to use regulation to balance this out, but the rich in the US have done a wonderful job equating regulation of any sort with The Red Menace.
Ever wonder why corporations or local governments can stomp all over you with little or late-to-the-party consequences? This is why.
To all people who were shocked at my “no political system is better than the other” comment, are you purposely taking that comment out of context?!
I meant between the UK and US, not the world!
Some would say the constitution died the day George Washington put down the whiskey rebellion.
I’d be surprised if it can even reach 20 MPH.
Based upon a quick online search, the air-cooled dirt bikes hit 30-40 mph, while the water-cooled street versions can go about 70 mph.
“It’s not noisy at all,” Tracey Frankland said. “People think it’s gorgeous.”
Scientists should be rushing to Australia to document the existence of the only quiet motorcycle on earth.
Her face was bright red and tears were pouring down her face. Now she thinks the police are bad.
At her age, that’s a good thing. As she gets older, it might sting when she figures out that her real problem is her trailer trash parents.
OK people, please back off the parental negligence BS. Every professional motorcycle rider started as a kid. I and many of the folks I know started RACING at age 4!
Now please re-read the article…
“While under her father’s supervision, Laney Frankland, 5, had been riding in circles around a reserve near the end of a neighborhood cul-de-sac on a 49cc motorbike.”
Father, supervision, cul-de-sac.
“The officers then summoned a tow truck to take away her bike. The girl ran to her mother.”
I wasn’t there, it wasn’t reported but I’d be willing to place a bet that the father was busy dealing with the said police while the child left the “cul-de-sac” and “ran to her mother.”
There is no mention of alcohol just as there is no mention of recommended or required safety equipment.
“Laney Frankland has been riding toy motorbikes since she was two years old.”
Even at 5, the child had three years of experience. Thats more than many that actually get a license.
I can’t speak for the laws “Down Under” but the only crime this child committed was being on a public street with an unlicenced vehicle – and that would depend on local law. Some US states actually allow motor vehicles under 50cc to use roads unlicenced.
Webster’s II Dictionary:
“Subject: 1) Under the power of another.”
Seems to me, Katie, that I’m rapidly losing my status as a responsible citizen of a Republic, and becoming a subject.
This is something that, frankly, separates folks all over the world.
There have always been a portion of the human race who did not wish to be subjected to the whims of people who think they are in sole control.
As for this family and the comments about “trailer trash” – why don’t you folks go out and rent a John Wayne movie some time and look at how American culture used to be (albeit through the eyes of Hollywood).
Better yet, go to a nursing home and visit with people and ask them about their youth, what they got up to and how they learned to be responsible adults in doing it.
People didn’t used to be so mollycoddled in childhood.
Seems to me like nowadays, most folks never grow up, truth be told. Perhaps these things are related to one another; I suspect they are.
My wife (British) and her 5 siblings used to be free (from about age 5) to walk to & from school and play amongst themselves until tea time (supper to Americans). Then they’d go out and play until dusk. That was the curfew. It’s dark pretty late in the West Midlands during the summer, to say the least.
I guess I’m saying that each kid is individual and parents are, too. The more I hear about PC junk (and how the state demand total control over everything from our cars to how we rear children), the more appalled I get.
It’s easy to say “it was a different world in the 1960’s – not so many people kidnapping children or sex crimes”. But it’s also easy to say “wow, that was only 40 years ago – what’s changed so rapidly?”
Good news, Laney! They’ve worked out a deal.
The police will give you your motorbike back, but, in return, Kevin Rudd gets to kick you once, through an embassy fence, with a normal shoe.
I can’t speak for the laws “Down Under”
It is not legal to ride these things in this town:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25926035-2862,00.html
If the parents want her to ride, the answer is to take her and the bike to a location where it is permitted, rather than to a public park in this town where it is not. But selfish people tend to not respect the rights of others.
There is an issue here of the nature of the seizure law itself — the guilty-until-proven-innocent aspect of it is prone to abuse and should be contested.
But keeping faster vehicles off of trails and grass that are meant for people who are walking and strolling is totally appropriate. Go take the bike somewhere else.
Menno,
I think we should treat Political Correctness with some respect. Without it we wouldn’t have:
equal rights for women
equal rights for people of colour
equal rights for homosexuals (I know how you feel about that one!)
equal rights for poor people
equal rights for all religions.
In short, political correctness gave everyone the right to be treated fairly.
Unfortunately, somewhere along the lines, political correctness got hijacked and taken to illogical extremes (much like subject of this article. Hey, that kept this post on topic!).
Don’t make the mistake of demonising political correctness as it has given us so much.
I have great respect for the United States, just like I’m sure you have great respect for the United Kingdom. I’m proud to be a subject of a great country, just you’re proud to be a citizen of yours. It isn’t always about who’s the better. Just respecting difference. :O)
Anyway, what kind of child get’s a motorised bike?! Play with a Playstation or a football, you spoilt brat!
ajla
The Simpsons is not funny! Never has been.
If the bike was noisy and generated a complaint, I would hope the story would have mentioned it. “Hoon laws” sure sounds like a funny way of enforcing noise limits. And trust me, I’m not one to downplay noise pollution, whether from motorbikes, leaf blowers or abandoned yap trash.
And the girl’s parents are not “entrusted to protect” her. They’re her parents. They know her, and what’s safe and not for her. Some cop does not. Also, people who takes toys from kids are bad people. Regardless of the political correctness of their arbitrarily chosen occupation. Hope the little girl has at least figured that out by now, or have been taught so by her parents.
The Simpsons is not funny! Never has been.
To each their own I suppose.
But, cut me some slack. All my knowledge of Australia comes from that one Simpsons episode, Crocodile Dundee movies, “Men at Work” songs, Greg Norman interviews, Foster’s commercials, the Pontiac G8, and Monaro/GTO.
I spent some time as a kid in Oklahoma. All the kids rode mini bikes. I was riding them at 5 myself. No helmet either. I crashed it more than a few times, slid on out the dirt and grass, got skinned… and got up and kept riding. You know what? Maybe some people don’t think children should be treated like glass animals. It’s really none of your business. Those kids will more than likely grow up to be self sufficient, brave and strong, not paralyzed and certainly not paralyzed with fear.
It’s easy to say “it was a different world in the 1960’s – not so many people kidnapping children or sex crimes”. But it’s also easy to say “wow, that was only 40 years ago – what’s changed so rapidly?”
Nothing has changed.
Back in the day these things were simply “not talked about”. Then, as now, the vast majority of child exploitation was done by someone the child knows and trusts (parents, relatives, authority figures). Children and parents didn’t report it, and the abuse was shushed up because it was shameful for the victim(s).
Now we don’t do this, and the years of institutionalized or systemic abuse is coming to light. I think, naturally, that this has got a lot of parents very scared for their kids, and a lot of people in authority scared about liability. This has seen the pendulum swing way, way into the other direction because, quite frankly, no one wants to be the one left holding the liability bag when a kid is abused or injured.
Somewhere there’s a middle ground. It’ll take some time to reach it, and it’ll cause some harm in the interim**, but that’s progress for you. I’ll take bringing this stuff to light over letting it sit in the dark and continue to happen.
** If you’ve watched the insanity done in the name of protecting the children in the UK, you’d get a good idea of what I mean. The US and Australia aren’t far behind, for the record.
At her age, that’s a good thing. As she gets older, it might sting when she figures out that her real problem is her trailer trash parents.
Putting aside that there are valid noise and safety concerns, this isn’t a fair comment. Her parents might be decent people who have a more liberal take on what a child is capable of and have confidence in her.
That’s not a bad thing, not compared to the kinds of kids whose parents accompany them to post-graduate job interviews.
Amazing how many nanny staters are present today. All I can say is: go raise your own kids. I’m glad at least some of the next generation aren’t being raised in a plastic bubble.
No_slushbox said something worth repeating:
“It’s easier for a college dropout with a gun to take your car than for his government provided car to be taken away.”
Public ‘servants’ shouldn’t have more rights than the public.
“Does no one else wonder why a child was being allowed to race a noisy gas-powered bike up and down a residential street? This is illegal in most states in the US. I think the seizure was appropriate. Further, the parents should be charged with child neglect.”
Of course, because that child should be inside the house, playing video games while getting fat and pale thanks to lack of sunlight and fresh air.
People are missing the point. The point is the arbitrary seizures allowed by law enforcement, especially when such seizures are mostly unnecessary.
“Anyway, you are using the safety angle to cloud the real issue: Police should not be able to confiscate property without due process and the right of appeal, and certainly not on hearsay.”
BINGO. People are so stuck on the safety/neglect end of the stick they fail to see the cop’s foot coming down on their necks.
This story and the reader comments are very interesting. I have to wonder and challenge if truly the “Best & Brightest” are really responding on this one.
Why? Those who comment that a 5 year old girl is too young and the parents are not being protective enough. Seriously? I wasn’t there to observe the parents and know all the facts of this one but I can tell you that plenty of responsible parents have carefully started young children out on minibikes, gokarts and snowmobiles. For example, my dad started my sister and I out on little Arctic Cat “Kitty Cats” at age 5 & 6. We had our share of little wipeouts and learned a great deal from these young driving experiences plus we learned responsibility. For me, gokarts and minibikes also came along at a young age too.
Maybe those of you naysayers to these parents in the article and the little girl should sit down and watch the classic movie “On Any Sunday” to learn a thing or two……
Perhaps they were illegal riding in the street there. Perhaps some nilly neighbor rat-finked on them. Perhaps the latest gov’t laws against lead will have forever eliminated sales of these little motorcycles. Perhaps overall, this article will force all of us to step back and think very hard about our government and laws and removal of freedoms we once had not so many years ago…
As she gets older, it might sting when she figures out that her real problem is her trailer trash parents.
I think the obvious solution is that the child be put into protective custody by the state and the parents put into the care of Australia’s Corrections Service – that will do wonders for them all.
Why not put all prospective parents and their offspring through this program and I’m sure everybody will become fine upstanding progressives, who always leave the last piece of cake for somebody else.
Frankly I wouldn’t minding being the Subject of a medieval Monarch – they are miles cheaper than a parliamentary democracy or a republic, and are usually chasing skirt, fighting other monarchs or building a fine crib. and if they do get off the rails then there is alway an heir or someone from another family with just as much right to rule.
Give the kid back her bloody bike.
Well, if GM is technically a financial firm under the law, this girl must be a terrorist.
Go ahead taser her 5 times in a row.
HEATHROI :
August 13th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
I think the obvious solution is that the child be put into protective custody by the state and the parents put into the care of Australia’s Corrections Service – that will do wonders for them all.
Why not put all prospective parents and their offspring through this program and I’m sure everybody will become fine upstanding progressives, who always leave the last piece of cake for somebody else.
—————————————-
I agree. In addition, adult males and females should be kept in different camps. The state would ensure when they mate and who they mate with. You know, it’s good for the next generation.
Cambodia did it to brilliant extent.
Amazing how many nanny staters are present today.
Fascinating.
I’m a pinko liberal nanny-stater and I’m coming in on the side of the “Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death” camp. I guess we’re not all so easily pigeonholed, after all.
I vaguely remember when this was a car blog… :-)
KatiePuckrik:
“To all people who were shocked at my “no political system is better than the other” comment, are you purposely taking that comment out of context?!
I meant between the UK and US, not the world!”
That’s what I thought Katie, even though I disagreed with your other point. :O I’ve read enough of your postings to know that you don’t think the government of the UK is on par with Iran or North Korea.
Unlicenced and most likely uninsured bike with an underage driver, riding on a street? Illegal is illegal.
And since when is a 49cc bike considered a “toy”? I’ve owned a mini dirtbike and a normal-sized moped, both of which could reach 60 km/h easily. Giving such a thing to a child should be considered reckless endangerment or at least child neglect.
Count me surprised at the number of posters expressing shock or even outrage over the idea of a 4-year old riding a minibike. I realize that most people didn’t grow up in a rural area like I did, where kids start operating vehicles–farm machinery, 4-wheelers, boats, snowmobiles, etc–at early ages. But the B&B should know that organized motor sports (motocross, etc) all over North America begins with 4-year olds … and it’s doubtful that the many thousands of those junior racers all hail from farm country.
I’m not defending permitting a child to drive on a public road (if she was) just as I wouldn’t support what sounds like an insane overreach of state power by the police, I’m just saying the concept of a child riding a minibike really shouldn’t shock people (especially here of all places).
” I vaguely remember when this was a car blog… :-)”
Me too.
That all ended when building (Government Motors), buying ( C4C ), operating ( red light / speeding cameras ), and now even teaching your kid to operate, a vehicle, became the target of government intrusion and intervention.
There was a time when the NRA’s mission was teaching marksmanship and general gun handling skills, as well. And when running a bank or insurance company was about managing your risk exposure, not a lobbying army.
Thems were the good ole days…
I am surprised the police used the anti-hoon legislation. There is already a law preventing the sale and use of monkey bikes in Victoria (where this girl lives).
http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/CA256902000FE154/Lookup/CAV_Publications_Product_Safety/$file/monkeybikes.pdf
If her father was indeed supervising (which I doubt as he’s a unfit father for letting his little five year old girl ride a bike capable of 30-60 km/h on a public street), he should have known that it is illegal and has been for some time. It was heavily publicized and bikes have been confiscated before this and it will happen again.
This stuff is not rocket science.
Okay …. Victoria has “hoon” laws which have nothing to do with this case. This is about unlicenced, unsafe motorbikes.
Licencing and safety laws used to not apply to bikes less than 50cc. Then a lot of these were being brought into Australia and being sold as “toys” – especially marketed at kids. But seeing as safety standards did not apply, many of them were unsafe (brakes, frame strength, fuel safety, etc. etc.). So now anything that is not safe cannot be licenced and cannot be driven off private property. This bike is unable to be licenced – THAT’S WHY IT WAS SO CHEAP – doh!
So …. Frankston has a special problem with kids riding these things contrary to the law (it’s a poor area and licensable bikes are more expensive)so they have a local ordinance that says these things can be impounded. In this case the police arrive and advise Dad (leave the little girl out of it, it’s her parents that are responsible for her and her bike) that riding the bike in a public place is not allowed – take it home. Dad says “F*** off – don’t tell me what my little girl can do on her own bike”. So bike gets taken away.
The decision is not unappealable. It can be taken to a small local court if the parents think that the impounding was wrong.
We have significant issues with police powers and police corruption – this isn’t an example of it.
Neither are the “hoon” laws. They allow for the impounding of cars for 48 hours (first offence). The idea is to get people driving dangerously off the street – why everyone else should be forcibly exposed to the risk these idiots create on the roads, I don’t understand.
A signed statement by Bill that he saw Fred doing donuts is not hearsay evidence. A signed statement by Bill that Tom told him that Fred was doing donuts is hearsay. There’s nothing in the linked story that suggests hearsay is being used in applying the hoon laws (other than using the word “hearsay”). Signing a statement is not usually done lightly. Once something is written down, signed and given to the police it’s out of your control. We have laws against perjury (a senior judge has recently been jailed for it in connection with making false written statements about driving offences commited by him).
The police have to make a decision as to whether they can be satisfied that the hoon laws apply before they impound a car. They have been doing it quite a lot – reckless driving is a significant problem here. We have a free press and there has been no stories (that I can remember) about police abuse of the hoon laws. No doubt the police can and do overstep their powers (and lie about it) – but that must be controlled in other ways. It’s not a reason to delete the hoon laws which have been effective in reducing reckless driving.
The decision of the police to impound a vehicle is not unappealable (although few bother if the car is being returned in 48 hours).
I take one Aussie curtin twitcher calling cops on kids and raise you one American one.
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2009/07/19/cops-bust-neighborhood-lemonade-stand-on-a-tip-from-suspicious-neighbor-good-job/
There is just no shortage of stupid, in Oz or the US.
Menno, there must be better examples of ignoring the constitution than making it illegal to own gold in 1933. The gold owners were payed, in greenbacks, for the gold they turned in, thus it’s a legal eminent domain taking. As for Article 1 Section 10, that section is all about limitations on the states. The federal government can make anything money it wants. If a state wants to make their own money, they can, but it has to be gold or silver.
In 1933, gold at $20 an ounce was unsustainable. If the government had tried to keep converting it on demand at that rate, they would have run out of gold very shortly.
kkt:
Roosevelt paid bullion holders $20/ounce. Then, once most private gold had been taken by force, revalued it at $35/ounce. An instant 40% confiscation of savings held in what was previously legal tender. Were the government to force you to sell your car to them at $20,000, then immediately rebuy it at $35,000, would you excuse that as well?
In 1933, gold at $20 was imminently sustainable. As would have been gold at $15, for that matter. The US was already on a fractional reserve system backed by the Federal Reserve, and the Fed had in no way lost enough control of liquidity not to be able to keep gold at $20, if that was their priority. $1, or even $5, may have been a problem, but not $20.
The difference would be there would be no immediate 40% windfall for FDR and his cronies to waste as they saw fit. Nor any massive inflationary spurt to try to keep overextended banks from facing the consequences of their earlier poor decisions.
Had Hoover followed Mellon’s 1929 advice to
” Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate.… It will purge the rottenness of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up from less competent people.”,
gold at $20 could have been sustained indefinitely, and the clowns manning the frontlines of our public indoctrination institutions likely wouldn’t have much of a Great Depression to scare children into collectivist drones with, either. Instead, Hoover, and later FDR, both sided with the less competent over the enterprising ones, something we still suffer the consequences of to this day.
stuki, best analysis I have seen in a long while.
Bailouts takes money from some people and give it to some other people. The net effect to the economy is negative due to the overhead and unfairness. It only prolongs the recession.
ghillie :
August 14th, 2009 at 2:26 am
Licencing and safety laws used to not apply to bikes less than 50cc. Then a lot of these were being brought into Australia and being sold as “toys” – especially marketed at kids. But seeing as safety standards did not apply, many of them were unsafe (brakes, frame strength, fuel safety, etc. etc.). So now anything that is not safe cannot be licenced and cannot be driven off private property. This bike is unable to be licenced – THAT’S WHY IT WAS SO CHEAP – doh!
———————————————-
You have a logic flaw here. If licensing and safety laws used to not apply to bikes less than 50cc, then on legal terms, these bikes are not unsafe.
The police doesn’t have any legal ground to refuse registration or seize the bike, until they can find a law that states these bikes are unsafe.
Better call your local MP and change the law first.
stuki: except that you don’t actually re-buy your car at $35,000. After the confiscation, the price of gold was of only academic interest except to coin dealers, jewelers, and foreign governments. The price of consumer goods did not inflate, in fact deflation was a greater problem.
The rate of bank failures slowed to a manageable level, the nation’s supply of gold was no longer in danger, the money supply increased so businesses could get loans again. Sure, it hurt hoarders and speculators, but as far as the great majority of the population it was the right move.
kkt,
If you wanted your car, or gold, back, that was what you now had to pay. If you were happy with FDR & Friends having it, I guess not. People had chosen to keep their savings in gold not because they liked the shine of it, but because of its value in exchange. So those $35,000 in gold were claims on $35,000 of whatever goods and services it could be exchanged into. After confiscation, you had claims on $20,000 worth, while FDR & Friends had claims on the remaining $15,000. Perhaps not the exact distribution you had envisioned when deciding whether to put that extra dollar aside for your retirement, rather than blowing it on Jazz Age vices and Gatsbyesque grandeur, but hey! And those previous claims were not limited to claims on “consumer goods”, whatever arbitrary scheme the confiscators might have used to classify some goods as such to the exclusion of others, but were claims on the economy as a whole.
And while I have no doubt allowing deeply indebted bankers to grab a share of 40% of everyone else’s savings, felt infinitely more manageable to those bankers themselves, as well as to those whose political campaigns they were bankrolling; I somehow doubt those that had eschewed speculation, and were now robbed of the opportunity to parlay their superior investment acumen into expanding their share of the total banking and asset markets, felt quite the same way. But then again, why should someone be allowed such an opportunity, merely on account of being enterprising and competent, when there were oh so many incompetents around to choose from; many of whom, on the back of massive debt, had managed to inject themselves so deeply into our benevolent politicians’ social and economic spheres?
Also, while I’m sure being able to confiscate at will ensured FDR’s supply of gold was no longer in danger, I doubt the remaining citizens of the nation felt their supply was all that secure any more. I know I wouldn’t.
And how does confiscating the savings of those who saved, in order to help pay down the debt of those who speculated with borrowed money and lost, hurt speculators? The same way taxing children not yet born, to bail out speculators at Goldman Sachs does?
As for “hoarders”, they’re more commonly referred to as savers. And since investment comes from savings, and economic growth comes from investment, hurting savers doesn’t exactly strike me as the cleverest move out there, at least if ones goal is economic growth and not wealth transfers, favoritism and ideological masturbation.
And the rest of the population? Well, what they got was 10 years of depression. Followed by five years of war. Followed again by decades of nonsensical mumbo jumbo about how things would have been “even worse” had people not bowed down, bent over and let themselves and their belongings be violated, all in the name of economic quackery incessantly spewed by an ever growing parasitic caste of leeches acting as little more than boat anchors around the ankles of productive humanity. Not exactly my idea of the right move, but perhaps I’m just a little eccentric.
wsn :
August 14th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
ghillie :
August 14th, 2009 at 2:26 am
Licencing and safety laws used to not apply to bikes less than 50cc. Then a lot of these were being brought into Australia and being sold as “toys” – especially marketed at kids. But seeing as safety standards did not apply, many of them were unsafe (brakes, frame strength, fuel safety, etc. etc.). So now anything that is not safe cannot be licenced and cannot be driven off private property. This bike is unable to be licenced – THAT’S WHY IT WAS SO CHEAP – doh!
———————————————-
You have a logic flaw here. If licensing and safety laws used to not apply to bikes less than 50cc, then on legal terms, these bikes are not unsafe.
The police doesn’t have any legal ground to refuse registration or seize the bike, until they can find a law that states these bikes are unsafe.
Better call your local MP and change the law first.
The law did get changed – sorry if I didn’t make that clear