My wife has probably driven every single minivan and wagon model of the last six years. It all started with the second kid. Before that time, we always kept our rides as sporty and nimble as possible. We love driving. But when the wife was eight months pregnant with kid two, the thought of some ignorant Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob plowing into the progeny became too much to bear and so . . . we upsized. We found cupholders and comfort in the minivans. Flashbacks of sportiness in the Subarus. Luxury and strength in our Volvos. Finally my wife got fed up with playing musical cars and wanted a ‘keeper’. The requirements? The color silver, safe, economical, and . . . a hybrid? Enter the Civic.
I bought it for $6500 at a Carmax sale in August 2008. 102,000 miles and a history fraught with fear and VW-esque maintenance. The engine had self-destructed only a few thousand miles before trade-in and had been replaced with an imported one that had 31,000 miles. The torque converter had been replaced. The battery had been serviced, replaced, and serviced again. In quality terms this car had represented the exact opposite of a conventional Civic. To add insult to injury, the dealership wanted me to pay for a software upgrade that should have been done a long time ago for free.
Hell, Volvo almost always does software upgrades for nothing so I said (unprintable). I put it up on Craigslist for $7900 and received a half dozen calls within a few hours. This was back in the days of $4 gas. But then I got 55 mpg on a drive to Athens, Georgia and, well, that was three times the mileage of my wife’s last ride. I said good-bye to quick profit and hello to a car that, with the almighty’s help, would appeal to our tightwad tendencies.
The Civic has become a tight ride in every respect for us. No rattles. Nothing. It’s as tight as a drum. All the power accessories still work perfectly as does the stereo system which seems to be tuned to an endless array of kids’ books. The cloth seats with side bolsters have no discernible wear and we even managed to remove our son’s name from several of them using plain soap and water. Oh, and what’s this? A thick armrest on the door and an extra one for driver and passenger alike? Honda asked for a premium price at the time and the outcome was an absolutely premium product. So how is the real world mpg’s?
Over 15,000 miles it garnered 42.3. That was a savings of about $800 compared with the typical 20 mpg we get from a homologation of wagovans. But with savings on one side comes spending on the other. The front O2 sensor went south and that would have been $180 right off the top had it not been for a nearby junkyard. Which reminds me: the best way to keep this type of vehicle is to find good junkyards, plan for the uniqueness of its powertrain, and read up on the enthusiast sites so that you know what to do once these problems rear their expensive heads.
The engine and battery? Seamless. The ‘Integrated Motor Assist’ is tuned towards fuel economy and if you have a foot lighter than Sarah Palin’s convictions, you’ll be playing with 50 mpg in town and 55 mpg on the highway. It can scoot when you need it to, and the combo is far more refined than its competition circa 2003. Barring a burst radiator hose which had cooked the prior car’s gas engine, I wouldn’t be surprised to see it last well north of 200k. But the electric battery?
Very different story I’m afraid. In the beginning it seemed to always have enough power in reserves. But now we have to drive the car in Grandma mode after about a half hour of normal driving. You have to literally baby it in order to fully recharge. What used to be a 10% battery drain has now gone to 75%, and I’m already planning on picking a near-new one nearby for $500. When that happens most of our annual savings from the past year will have gone kaput. But then we’ll have another few years of bliss if only the . . .
Automatic transmission will hold up. The 2003 models have absolutely horrendous transmission reliability. The torque converter has been replaced and Honda has already gone through its ‘refurbishment’ of the system. But the future Kevokrian will still sometimes give an off-putting vibration when climbing hills. Truth be told this transmission is really suited to a model that has far less weight . . . like my 1st gen Insight. I don’t know where or when Honda upgraded their tranny or the related software (feel free to respond, Honda) but if the 2004 and 2005 models have the same setup, owners can expect to do what I recommend for most minivans: change the tranny fluid once a year and make sure it’s at the exact level on the dipstick. If you neglect it, you will regret it.
With all these negatives you would think I would hate this car. Nope. It fits our family needs perfectly. My wife likes compacts. I like planning for rainy days. The kids like being able to hit each other, and even our dog has found a home in the middle seat. It’s a great car for a frugal enthusiast who is willing to sacrifice Prius cachet for Honda anonymity. The $2000 discount on average vis-à-vis the used Prius is well worth the risk if you know what you’re doing and like playing the risk game. Most hybrid owners hate risk. My advice is to find one that follows the minivan model of ownership. Find one with a recently replaced tranny, a replaced battery is even better, and keep the remaining cash in a rainy day fund. You may need it.
Sheesh, I’d drive the regular 4 banger/5mt just to save myself all the headaches! The juice almost doesn’t seem worth the squeeze…
i’m from athens ga! why did you drive to athens?
There are guys who disassemble and rebuild the battery packs if you send them to them.
Wow. RX-7 twin turbo maintenance worries and Hyundai Excel driving fun. All for the price of a cherry Ford Focus! Sounds like a great deal.
Maybe I’m not paying attention but this is the first time I have heard someone with a Hybrid say the battery was going away. I never hear a Prius owner talk about diminished batteries. Are these getting changed at 100K or are they lasting longer? Too much Prius pride to admit to the maintanance?
Hybrids of all types and sizes are there to make eco friendly types feel good themselves. If you want a vehicle which will run for many miles on not much fuel and not break the bank if something goes wrong – buy a DIESEL. Simple.
And if you are an eco friendly type who gets all hot around the collar when thinking about the pollution they produce – check out the latest stats on A) How much pollution is made during the actual production of the vehicle (hybrids contain various metals which are a basterd to the environment) and B) the latest statics from how much actually comes out of the tailpipe and you’ll be suprised.
Honda hybrids don’t have a very good reputation for longevity. It seems the entire car holds up well aside from the battery pack ($$$) and the ghastly CVT transmission.
My Insight has been through two battery packs, one at about 66,000 miles and then another about 5k miles later.
I don’t know how Toyota can get hybrids so right and Honda can screw them up so badly, but the notion of a “simpler” IMA design having better reliability by its nature is a farce.
If one craves a used Honda hybrid, it’s best to find one in a California emissions state (longer IMA battery warranty) and have proof that the trans fluid was changed regularly with Honda fluid by a Honda mechanic.
Picking nits: there is no torque converter in a Honda CVT. The trans has an automated clutch device to get you moving then stays engaged as the pulleys vary the ratios with the belt. The shuddering is probably the clutch mechanism failing, as they are wont to do.
Nice used MB E320 CDI here I come!
Twotone
Wow! Progeny and homologation in the same article. Very highbrow. Very nice.
However, even with Google I wasn’t able to get the meaning of “homologation” in this context.
The Prius system doesn’t discharge the battery pack as deeply as Honda’s does, which helps the battery life a lot. The folks who buy a Volt to commute 15 miles to work on electricity should expect to buy a new pack every other year.
The Prius system doesn’t discharge the battery pack as deeply as Honda’s does, which helps the battery life a lot. The folks who buy a Volt to commute 15 miles to work on electricity should expect to buy a new pack every other year.
You have no idea what your talking about. The Volt and the Prius both roughly use only 50% of their battery packs. The Volt battery should last 15+ years since it self modifies its charge characteristics as it ages and adds charge cycles. Honda’s and Tesla batteries suck so much because they use up 70-90% of their packs potential and absolutely destroy the internal cell chemistry very quickly.
TimCrothers:
The Volt battery should last 15+ years since it self modifies its charge characteristics as it ages and adds charge cycles.
It’d be interesting to know the percentage of ’01 to ’04 Priuses that are running on the original battery.
It’d also be interesting to see how extended warranty rates differ between 5 year old Priuses and 5 year old Altimas and Camrys.
They made that generation of the Civic Hybrid with a manual transmission too. Any idea how those are holding up?
“and if you have a foot lighter than Sarah Palin’s convictions”
“No flaming the site, its authors or fellow commentators. Persistent offenders will be permanently banned.”
I’m wondering what Ms. Palin’s convictions have to do with this car review.
I have a 2002 Civic with a 5 speed. I can get 40MPG easy if I drive it “like a hybrid”. Great car, no maintenance so far with 85K (knock on wood).
From this point of reference, the Civic hybrid makes no sense to me. That being said, I’m glad they are working on new technology, but Honda has a long way to go before I’ll plunk down extra money for one.
lutonmoore: “I’m wondering what Ms. Palin’s convictions have to do with this car review.”
Me too. And why she would be thought to hold lightly her convictions.
Cute article, but you’ve already spent more than you would have if you had bought a conventional Civic of the same era, since, in that case, the gas savings difference would have been less than $400.00. Furthermore, you wouldn’t have had to restrain your political foot while on the road.
Cute article, but you’ve already spent more than you would have if you had bought a conventional Civic of the same era, since, in that case, the gas savings difference would have been less than $400.00. Furthermore, you wouldn’t have had to restrain your political foot while on the road.
Yeah, if you can get 30-something plus with a regular Civic or Corolla, why bother with a hybrid right now?
Okay… I’ll do my best to answer the responses.
JG, my wife drives automatics. I agree on the 5-speed (plus it’s cheaper) but I have to work with what I’m given. Plus my wife does a ton of intown driving.
omarg, a friend of mine has started a sand business nearby. I love Athens. If I could take all my work with me to there I’d do it.
segfault, I know. For $500 it’s cheaper to go local.
Boff, If you took a Camry. Shrunk it. Gave it some handling and a cohesive look, you’d have this Civic. It’s not for the sports enthusiast but it was the gold standard until the Mazda 3 came out.
Sinistermisterman: I kept it because it’s an interesting technology. I’ve had five diesels (350SDL, 1995 E-Class, 1996 E-Class, 1998 Jetta, 1991 Suburban) and the majority of them were complete PITAsses. My wife hates diesels due to all the issues I had to deal with. Even so, I would have probably given her one if VW made an automatic that’s worth a flip.
Galaxy: This one is an Arizona vehicle and I believe they were part of the California warranty due to it being a hot climate area. No one, anywhere, seems to be able to give me an easy answer on that. Not even the Honda rep at the auction. Apparently they will warranty the battery based on where it’s registered… but I haven’t been able to figure out if Honda does that across the board or in certain cases.
twotone: I like them… but they’re rare and pricey at the auctions.
shabster: My wife approved of a series of vehicles… in a Ron Simmons kinda way.
ihatetrees: Two different generations. I can tell you that virtually all of the 01 Priuses I have seen at the auctions have received new batteries. In fact, I could have kept a 2001 Prius with a brand new battery and a dealer maintained history since day one, with new tires to boot, for $6500. I ended up selling it on Ebay for $8850 instead. It’s one of the very few decisions I regret as it relates to cars. I should have kept it for the long haul. Those cars were overengineered and easily cost north of 35k to build. Amazing machines.
B.C.: Unfortunately the manual transmissions drain the battery more than the automatics.
lutonmore: Sarah Palin’s convictions are about as firm as Obama’s commitment to fiscal conservatism. I hate both parties… if it were up to me I would ban political parties altogether. Nothing good will ever come of them.
poobah: I agree. A 5-speed Civic of this vintage is an exceptional vehicle. But my wife needs an automatic and does a lot of town driving. 42.3 is damn good for mostly slow driving.
50merc: You may be right. If you can find what her rationale was for the ‘Bridge to Nowhere’ you’ll find her Kerry-esque convictions. Hint… she was for it before she was against it.
lutonmore: Sarah Palin’s convictions are about as firm as Obama’s commitment to fiscal conservatism. I hate both parties… if it were up to me I would ban political parties altogether. Nothing good will ever come of them.
Good answer, you’re right. Anyway, we have some good choices out there. I’d rather go conventional for a few years. Let them work these battery/plug-in/whatever issues out.
One more thing…
2003 Corolla, 25 City
2003 Civic Gas, 26 City
2003 Civic Hybrid, 40 City
Taken directly from fueleconomy.gov . My wife’s 6% higher return over the Civic average would not have changed the differentials that much.
Over 100,000 miles and assuming $3 gas, the savings amount to $4500. Even if maintenance eats up half of that I’m well ahead.
It would actually be cheapest for me to keep flipping these types of cars for profit. But the prices are rapidly approaching new heights at the auctions and after driving 100+ vehicles the last several years I think she’s really earned her dues.
She loves it. If she didn’t I’d sell it.
I bought my wife’s 2005 Civic Hybrid new and that thing was dead reliable until I gave it to my brother with 60K+ miles on the odo. The deepest I’ve ever drained the battery was 75% and the ECU would draw engine power to recharge the battery. I ask my brother how he’s doing with it and he maintains it over 50mpg in mixed driving.
As a Brit I feel I have to chip in some gasoline figures to threads like this, purely for comedy value despite the tenuous relevance.
1 litre = £1.03
£1.03 = $1.70
1 US gallon = 3.78 litre
1 US gallon = $6.42
For reference the ‘powers that be’ did a dry run a year or so ago and things ‘stopped working properly’ at about £1.30 a litre or $8.12 per US gallon.
Just to add to stevenjjs thoughts. By his figures we in Southern Ont are paying around 96.cents a litre CDN,or 3.87 US for a US Gallon.
I’m starting to a see lot more Prius,but a Honda Hybrid are a rare sight.
On a related subject .I just put a $1000 in repairs for our rarely driven 03 Jimmy. We have to reduce the fleet by one vehicle. If it hits a buck a litre, see you later Jimmy.
We cross-shopped this against the Jetta TDI for my wife back in 2003. I was intrigued by the technology but they didn’t have any information on battery life other than there being a warranty of x amount of miles. I don’t remember the number but considering the the Jetta TDI we did end up buying has 200k in six years we would have blown through the warranty long ago.
Reading this I think we made the right decision with the Jetta (I also bought myself a Golf TDI, but that has since been replaced). Sure it has its quirks but with TDI Club forums and a VAG-COM we’ve avoided most of the expensive repair visits. The only thing I haven’t done myself is the timing belt replacement.
That horrid CVT was also inflicted on GX (CNG) Civics of that generation. Needed for a hybrid due to the fact that the engine shuts down at times, stopping the oil pump on a conventional slushbox.
We traded the GX for a new one, now with conventional automatic, as soon as the extended warranty expired. Three transmissions in 60,000 miles!
IF Honda would bring back a 1300cc/manual trans HF model, the hybrid might not be necessary, but with a “big” four, the mileage isnt that great. I may try and find a 5-speed Civic Hybrid. What happens if the battery pack dies altogether? Does the car stop dead, or does it still drive, just slower?
If you’re buying cars at auction, you’re self-selecting for problems to a degree. I have yet to hear of a 1st (US) gen Prius owner actually having to replace a battery for reasons other than an accident (or a defect) – although I’m sure that by now it’s happened a few times. The cars making their owners the happiest aren’t going to show up at your auction.
I have a 2005 civic hybrid with a manual transmission. Everyday on the freeway I SMOKE Corvettes, Porsches, even Ferraris – I leave them in the DUST!
You might ask how a 100 HP car can do this, and the secret is California Carpool lane stickers that allow me to drive in the HOV lane alone. The state issued like 50,000 of them from around 2004 to 2006 for qualifying hybrids (civic, insight, prius), and the only way to get one now is to buy a used car that already has them. The stickers add about $5,000 to the value of the car.
I get about 42 MPG, and I drive it like a nut. I usually get it up to 85-90 on the way to work – past that speed doesn’t seem safe with the crappy tires I have. Sharp curves at brisk speeds make the tires howl and induce typical FWD under-steer.
The 5 speed is very slick, I can shift it with 1 or 2 fingers. When you downshift, the engine braking recharges the battery. The car would probably be even more of a gutless wonder with an automatic or CVT, which I think was an option.
I have had zero problem with it after about 50,000 miles. The only strange thing about maintaining it that I have found so far is that it requires 0w-20 synthetic oil.
Sounds like the headaches of a Civic hybrid may only make ownership any sense when gas is around $4.00/gallon. Otherwise, no real savings pans out.
I will be buying new in the next few years and no hybrid is on my list. Prious is reliable but more suitable for people who drive like grandmothers, and Honda hybrids are nothing but trouble. In my book, there is still no good alternative to all gas/diesel.
Allegro
The CVT is a real PITA everywhere… which is probably why Honda specced the first-generation US Fit with a torque-converter-equipped automatic. Everyone else got the CVT. Apparently, CVT life has been compromised by poor transmission fluid and the delicacy of the clutch packs when subjected to abuse.
Driven gently, they can last a pretty long time, but when they eventually go, they’re an expensive replacement.