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Which means importing this 415 hp, 415 lb-ft, AWD Ford FPV F6 E from Australia is a bad idea, too. Right?
57 Comments on “Remember, the G8 Was a Bad Business Decision...”
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I drove the prior BA Falcon turbo when I was in Sydney in 2004. It was an AMAZING car. Better than the Holdens GM has tried in the US before.
I have read that Ford considered selling the Aussie Falcon here years ago but couldn’t make a business case to justify the expensive re-engineering for left-hand drive and tooling the plant.
That’s a shame, I would buy one but then again I’m one of the few who also bought the Monaro and Commodore as Pontiacs too.
The Falcon platform is getting a little old so the effort of re-engineering this car to be sold in the US is probably not worth it. What Ford should be doing, however, is investing in a new Falcon platform that can be used internationally and then we wouldn’t be stuck with the SHO Taurus as the Ford performance sedan flagship.
One of the G8’s biggest problems is that it was a pontiac which alot of the country equates with “Redneck”.
Wow! So why did Ford introduce the Taurus when it has this in the wings which could have filled that spot? Was engineering a new car really more expensive than making this one available as a left hand drive?
Or were they just afraid of what the G8 just did??
I do wonder how many potential buyers were simply put off by the Pontiac badge. With the blue oval, who knows.
This car is hot. If Ford could get this over here I would be in for one.
Yes, it would be a bad business decision.
I agree rnc, the Commodore should have been sold here with it’s styling intact as a Chevrolet along with the Monaro, it may have been a different story.
I’ve always lusted after an Oz turbo straight-6 Falcon. Think BMW smooth at Ford prices.
Its much prettier than the SHO.. They could bring the next gen platform as a Lincoln if their is any real intention of saving that brand, at least then they would have something that isn’t a rebadge US product but still save some design cost
I must admit that I am jealous of the cars that are available in Europe, Brazil and Autralia (at reasonable prices). This is CAFE’s biggest impact/fault, it forces car choices on us. A higher gas tax (also more appropriate) would accomplish the same things and still allow those willing to pay for the fuel the ability to have some fun.
In terms of bad business model, Ford still basically has the police fleet business to itself, the falcon platform was recently modernized and the panther will eventually be phased out (CAFE again). Might be a pretty good busines model (the falcon is being offered with a 4 cyl. ecoboost, tune back to “twin force” and there you go)
skor – except that it has a cast iron block and makes the car feel somewhat front heavy.
I drove an XR6 on a recent visit to family there and wasn’t nearly as impressed as TriShield. The interior is very nice but the car feels heavy in the corners and suspension somewhat unsettled.
There are several reasons this Falcon has zero chance of coming to America.
Most importantly, this platform was not engineered to accept left hand drive.
It overlaps too substantially in size, price, and performance with other Ford offerings, like the Fusion Sport, Taurus, Taurus SHO, and Lincoln MKS.
The price would have to be over $40,000.
Pontiac G8 was a dismal failure.
FPV, Ford Australia’s in-house tuning business, is probably not capable of increasing production numbers to support any meaningful exports to the U.S. There are other factory Falcons with the turbo six motor, but power is about 360 rather than 415 hp.
__________________
All of that said, signs point to Ford Australia playing an increasingly large role in American RWD development. I think Ford is committed to volume cars at this point rather than niche products, and that means FWD across the board (even to the detriment of Lincoln). So is likely that the next Mustang will have more in common with the Falcon, but only Ford could tell you how much.
carguy, I guess it’s about perspective. Compared to the fullsize cars Ford produces and sells here it is amazing.
It is also amazing considering it is an affordable, mainstream family car in Austraia compared to the affordable, mainstream family cars (Accord, Camry, Taurus, Impala, etc) we get here in America.
If you’re used to driving a 5-Series or don’t like fullsized cars then I suppose it wouldn’t be one’s cup of tea (or dab of Vegemite).
I also drove the XR6T (the turbo, not the normal six) with a manual.
Explain to me why a country with Traffic Control that is a Safety Nazis wet dream has such nice cars…I mean, really…..
Downright HOOLIGANISM! I like it.
carguy :
August 4th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
The Falcon platform is getting a little old so the effort of re-engineering this car to be sold in the US is probably not worth it. What Ford should be doing, however, is investing in a new Falcon platform that can be used internationally and then we wouldn’t be stuck with the SHO Taurus as the Ford performance sedan flagship.
I could not agree more. Well said.
carguy +1
They need to engineer a global rear wheel drive platform rather than two or more platforms for essentially the same vehicle segment only for different markets.Maybe we could have a ford falcon again and an SVT version to go with it.
Ford could fix Lincoln with cars like this! Add a little nicer trim and the appropriate Lincoln exterior accessories (grill, etc) and they could have a true replacement for the dearly departed LS. Besides, it’d be easier to convince people to spend the extra jack on a Lincoln rather than on a Ford.
****
One of the G8’s biggest problems is that it was a pontiac which alot of the country equates with “Redneck”.****
IMHO a bigger problem is that for most guys (and gals) under 40 Pontiac is meaningless except for the rusty Sunbirds and plastic-ky Grand Ams.
Speedlaw: Great Question! Why is it that every cool car that we dream about getting here is regular transportation in Austrailia? Why don’t we get any of these? CAFE anyone?
Um, the Falcon is not AWD. Never has been.
This car is also going get an Ecoboost 4 pot soon too, and possibly a diesel.
EDIT: Actually not completely true. Ford produced between 400 and 500 4×4 Falcon Utes in the late 60’s – early 70’s
Ford Australia have lost the plot with the Falcon. They’ve made a big car into a small car, on the inside at least. The large RWD sedan is a dinosaur for sure, but making it smaller inside cannot have helped.
Having recently returned to New Zealand after more than a decade abroad, it’s very striking.
The old Falcons were big, square, reasonably stylish and very spacious (i’m 6 1/2 feet). Now they’re curvy and cramped. I often had them as rental cars for work. They were a big car on the inside. Now my head touches the roof and the front of the roof comes down to my eye level.
You only need look at the taxi fleet to surmise what has happened. A decade ago Wellington taxi’s were also exclusively Falcons, with the odd Holden Commodore. Now they’re mostly Maxima’s, a few Camry’s, quite a few Prius’s and the odd Falcon. Get out of a Falcon and into a Maxima and you can see why. Nissan et al make a better big car.
I grew up in the country and the Falcon was easily the most popular car with farmers. Spacious, robust and it could tow horse floats/boats etc. The latter requirement has gone to other vehicles and Ford has done for the former. The IRS probably didn’t help the case for towing.
So why would you buy one? Most of the relatively fewer Falcons that you now see in NZ are the racier models. So perhaps the Falcon has become the poorer mans BMW and lost its mass market (in NZ at least)? Perhaps this was the only thing that ford could do with this car? Interesting.
cheers
Malcolm
Am I the only one that is confused by the links that Ed put in the original post? Neither link (as far as I can tell) point to articles that mention bringing the Falcon to the USA. The Blog-Headline says G8 – and doesn’t mention the Commodore, so I’m assuming the implication is that it would be a bad decision to bring this Falcon to America… right? No?
But the discussion of importing vehicles is pretty complicated… Marketing and Sales potential is only a portion of a business case. If all business cases only relied on the notion that a vehicle would have a given number of buyers, then there would be a lot more car companies selling vehicles in the USA. Aside from the oft-discussed ideas of brand strategy and volume predictions, think about all the other items that play an important role.
But, there are many out there who are usually quick to say that these business issues are just noise. So they go about with their broad brush strokes when painting their automotive landscape. But then I don’t think those grand visionaries would ever care to discuss the merits of various business cases between automakers.
Some questions you should also ask…
1) Does this fit with the CAFE strategy / requirements? Similarly there needs to be available powertrain variants that can be sold effectively in the alternative market(s).
2) What level of homologization is necessary to bring the car over? The rules book is huge – and small things like the crush strength of the A pillars could spell doom and gloom.
3) Can the suppliers meet the demand of vehicles with a given set of logistical requirements for the entire supply chain that results in products available to the dealer body?
4) What type of margins are we talking about on these cars? Just because it’s priced competitively to the customer doesn’t mean it makes sense to sell in the Good Ol’ USA.
5) What type of parts and service support is available? Do dealers need to stock up on lots of maintenance and spare parts due to lack of parts commonality with other vehicles in the lineup? Will they even be able to service the car without new specialized equipment?
Yes, business cases get nickeled and dimed to death… but that’s what makes them a challenge. I’m sure if you put your thinking cap on you’ll think of numerous other challenges that need to be overcome even if you think someone is willing to pay money for your product.
carguy++
Ford doesn’t need another large car in the US marketplace, the D3 Taurus does that job admirably, but perhaps isn’t the best platform from which to build a sports sedan. Keep the Taurus for big roominess, but develop a car with the Aussie engineers for RWD performance, badging it as a Thunderbird for Ford, and offering an upscale version as a Lincoln.
Man…
This is one of those times..
Where what GM did.. could actually be a good thing for FORD.
With the G8..
They had it backing an entire division (along with the Solstice) surrounded by a bunch of crap.. expecting it to hold back the heathens of those looking for performance, all the while having shit like the Equinox / Torrent, G3 and G5 as downers. This is on top of the shit offered through SS division..
With the Falcon.. its joining potentially POWERFUL cars.. that could SERIOUSLY bring FORD some street cred.
I mean.. toss the Focus RS, Mustang Shelby, SHO, and the FALCON.. into the mix.. and you seriously have a vehicle lineup that takes a shit on the SUVS / CUVS.
And that.. DEFINATELY isnt a bad thing.
Man..
Ford and performance.
That is two words.. Id never NORMALLY put together.
Makes ya really wonder who is on top of the shit heap now..
Ford or… Toyota?
The current Falcon wouldn’t make a profit here, but what Ford could/should do is base the next one on a global RWD chassis shared with the Mustang. Both the current Falcon and new Mustang will be up for replacement or at least a freshening by 2014/15, when such a chassis could be ready; a Falcon having extensive parts commonality with the Mustang would be pretty cheap to build in America and would make a fantastic next-gen Taurus besides. And while they’re at it, twin the next Territory (which is currently a supposedly fantastic Falcon-based crossover) with the Explorer as well.
With just the Mustang, Falcon/Taurus and Territory/Explorer Ford would have decent production volume, and would have a perfect base for the RWD flagship Lincoln so very badly needs.
Ah, Ford’s flagship from the land of Kangaroos and Kylie Minogue. For the longest time, I would pray that Ford would bring it over here. But now that the 2010 Taurus is here, I think bringing it here would be an idiotic move, as it would just end up in a fist fight with the Taurus over sales. And since this is Ford and not GM, I have reason to believe that they won’t be trying to sell a bunch of overlapping models.
The current Falcon wouldn’t make a profit here, but what Ford could/should do is base the next one on a global RWD chassis shared with the Mustang.
Build it in Mexico, and leverage it into a global platform that could support a few different vehicles, including Lincoln in North America and a 5-series/E-class/A6 competitor in Europe, and it might just make sense.
The real gaping hole in the Ford universe is Lincoln. The effort to compete with the Germans on US soil has failed before, but it is a necessary effort, regardless. The margins come from trucks and luxury cars, and they need to prepare for the post-recession world, which will be upon us sooner than later.
rnc : “One of the G8’s biggest problems is that it was a pontiac which alot of the country equates with “Redneck””
No, the problem was they tried to slap some “muscle lipstick” on a foreign built, euro trash styled vehicle and sell it to real AMERICANs. And as history amply demonstrates, them “Rednecks” ain’t that f____in’ stupid…
Oh, and BTW, that’s exactly what would happen if Ford tried it.
4-door Supra.
4L I6 turbo with 6 speed, LSD and IRS…. magic.
They wouldn’t risk putting it up against the Mustang. The F6 easily embarrasses it.
“4L I6 turbo with 6 speed, LSD and IRS…. magic.”
:) Pete, anything with LSD = magic…
Here is what my longtime-and-still-present-at-the-time-high-up-Ford-engineer friend (I’m sure the Germans have a single word for that) had to say on the subject in 2004:
“The interesting thing about the Falcon (and the Commodore) is that in addition to being very nimble and stable, they also ride very smoothly. This is mostly due to the fact that the majority of Australia’s secondary roads are clay/crushed gravel, so kinda like secondary roads in Michigan during winter, they can get rough during the wet season, and the suspensions of cars there have to be able to take the ruts and holes without beating the occupants to death.
“American cars have traditionally been sprung to handle rough terrain with perfect smoothness, but that tuning becomes detrimental when you have to do anything other than go completely straight. American “performance” suspensions, therefore, have simply consisted of higher-rate springs to control body motion, which has the negative
effect of translating the impact of every pebble or pavement crack you run over, and beats your kidneys to death.
“How the Australians get their cars to absorb a potted dirt road and handle the turns of a road course all in one tuning is quite remarkable, really. It has a lot to do with the configuration of the suspensions themselves, but
the real trick is in how they match spring and damping rates. The problem with American cars is that they’re made so blasted cheaply, and their structures are so flimsy, that you really have little to work with if you’re trying to stabilize a car and improve ride quality, so everything they routinely do in Europe and Australia, we
can’t do here. Forget trying to incorporate an “expensive” double wishbone front suspension or IRS rear drive; its all cheap MacPherson struts and trailing links to get the job done.”
Taurus SHO may be nice, but that thing is humongous, and doesn’t look nearly as sleek as the car pictured for this article, in no way shape nor form.
Also, the Taurus has a Ecoboost V6, which is relatively unproven, and has less HP than this model. This model also has a Inline 6 design, I think, since I see bunches of Falcon I6 motors pulling 1000+hp on youtube :)
I’d call it a poor man’s faster BMW. What’s the weight on that thing, as compared to the Taurus? With the Taurus’ enormous amount of dry weight, even with all that ecologically sound 365hp under the hood, its a relatively weak accelerating vehicle.
Finally, I don’t see this as a G8 import model setup. The G8 looked like all Pontiacs: gimmicky.
The pictured machine looks like something a mid-30’s executive would drive. I don’t see any comparison.
Follow up: I didn’t see anything about this car being imported.
Which made me sad.
Even if it is not their mass market product, a competent RWD sedan and pony car seem like no-brainers for a U.S. domestic car manufacturer.
@Justin Berkowitz:
It overlaps too substantially in size, price, and performance with other Ford offerings, like the Fusion Sport, Taurus, Taurus SHO, and Lincoln MKS.
…which is interesting to contemplate, because when Ford sent the Taurus to Australia in ’96-’97 (as the “Taurus Ghia”), Australians compared it to the local Falcon and decided en masse that the similarly-sized local Falcon was better in every way. Australian review of the Taurus Ghia debacle is here.
Even worse, no mention of importing a Falcon on google news, either.
So I guess we are stuck with the Taurus SHO. People I know who have seen the SHO up close say it is not only weighing in heavy, it also _looks_ big.
Bring us the Falcon!
AND….
Mad Max drove a Falcon.
The G8 was not a bad business decision. It was a fantastic one that gave America a proper (V8, RWD) sport sedan that was extremely affordable.
GM’s marketing division once again dropped the ball.
———-
As for the Falcon…well, that car is proof that Ford is capable of building a desirable automobile. How than can make the business case to import a terrible van from Turkey but not the Falcon is beyond me.
The Falcon makes the Taurus SHO really look like an overweight, overpriced, under delivering hack job of a sport sedan.
America already had a proper V8 RWD sports sedan that was affordable.
It’s name was Charger. And GM was late to the game.
holydonut: you’re on-point as usual. Ford has no plans to bring Falcon stateside. The headline was just an attempt to pre-empt the inevitable calls for importation. After all, the G8 ran into most of the problems you listed…
BAH!
An updated Panther is the way to go for Ford for a NA fullsize performance offering, and no 1/2 assed effort like the Marauder either.
Eliminate the money toilet that are the D3 sedans and move the already 4K lb Mustang onto an updated Panther platform, put whatever high end Mustang engine into a restyled Town Car and offer it in PIs to keep the cops happy, offer the 2V as your base for the cabs, thereby keeping your Panther base customers (fleets) and appealing to retail customers with the updates.
Of course none of this fantasy will take place anyway because by 2016 thanks to the environazis the Fusion will be the largest sedan you’ll be able to buy anyway.
I am an admitted 2010 Taurus hater. It tries to be all things to all people, with its overpriced base iteration, and its insanely overpriced (and completely underwhelming) SHO iteration (which the original SHO shames).
Now this car….this car I could get behind in a big way.
This is what the Taurus should be.
This is worth the price of admission of an “aspirational motor vehicle.”
The 2010 Taurus? Not so much.
I don’t know anything about GM’s Australian G8 or Ford’s Australian FPV but I can look at a globe.
Australia is a long ways away and loading up a ship to send any car from there to here would be very expensive. I can’t imagine any economic sense in moving fully assembled non-exotic cars that far.
GM’s importing of the G8 was probably a last minute desperate attempt to inject some life into Pontiac and the attempt was too late or too costly to save Pontiac.
as mentioned above, this is RWD not AWD.
also mentioned above, a commenter said about the Falcon being smaller inside than it used to be. well that’s because the Falcon (and to a lesser extent the Commodore) have not increased hugely in size with each new model. the current Falcon is barely any larger than it was in the 90’s. back then the Accord was substantially smaller, now it’s a fraction larger all round.
i’d take the G6E Turbo over the FPV F6E. 95% of the power and looks for 65% of the cost
The Falcon was never designed for export. Outside of the pacific and NZ, it’s just not sold anywhere else. The model doesn’t have US spec fuel tanks (and that would be a major redesign), bumpers or any ability to be made LHD.
Which is a shame.
It’s a bit bigger than a Taurus, especially in the interior department. It has just about the same room in the trunk as a Town Car. The only downside is the rear doors are compromised due to the bodywork, so unless you’re a kid, getting in and out of the back seat is always a bit of a chore for me.
There are long wheel base versions, which would make a good replacement for the Town Car market, and to a certain degree, as a police cruiser as you’d be able to make the back fit a cage or similar without the occupants’ legs being crushed by the front seats.
There’s a CUV version, the Territory, which is a bit bland for me, but in a land where Camries and Accords sell well, it’d probably be a good seller there. The Territory is available in 2WD and 4WD variants, is IRS, and is soon to have a diesel engine.
There’s no reason that new dies couldn’t be struck and the car made in the USA. I’d just be concerned that all the new fangled things like IRS and decent power would disappear so as to not humiliate the Pony car by a base spec I6 Falcon.
Andrew
The Falcon was never designed for export.
I’m not sure where this has come from, but my understanding is Ford did indeed do the engineering work, but there certainly is no tooling in Australia to provide LHD. I think Ford for a time even tried to inform media that it was not an engineering or “lack of” design issue. The point became mute when even the Australian I6 plant (since reprived), and Ford itself had been struggling for survival.
Andrew van der Stock, do you have another source?
I must say that is a really good looking car!
The G8 is by most accounts a good car. It was introduced at a very bad time. Marketing can make up for bad conditions but shrinkage of the market from 17m to 10m annually? Realize that the auto industry is one with something like a 2 year horizon – decisons made one year become reality 2 years later. What would you decide about producing the G8 in 2007 (or maybe even 2006)?
The Australian car market is about 1m annually? Much smaller than the (shrunken) US market. If the Falcon can sell at similar rates in the US, then 10-15 times as many would be sold in the US.
I don’t entirely understand “the difficulties of changing from right-hand drive to left-hand”. Any top engineering organization (Ford included) would be using CAD-CAM and mirroring the configuration is pretty simple. I realize this is possibly an oversimplification (I am an engineer) but the effort of converting has got to be much simpler these days with computers than it was in 1960 when CAD-CAM was not available.
To paraphrase an already-overworked cliche:
“If you bring it, they will come.”
IF the next generation Falcon (Australia) and Mustang (North America) come from the same platform, which would make perfect sense, then it would be the 1960’s all over again.
The original Ford Falcon (USA/Australia) was the platform “donor” to the original Mustang.
I don’t entirely understand “the difficulties of changing from right-hand drive to left-hand”. Any top engineering organization (Ford included) would be using CAD-CAM and mirroring the configuration is pretty simple. I realize this is possibly an oversimplification (I am an engineer) but the effort of converting has got to be much simpler these days with computers than it was in 1960 when CAD-CAM was not available
Me neither. Yes, it’s an oversimplification, because the problem is not only to install the steering wheel in the right side of the car, along with a new rack, hydraulic lines, wiring a lot more changes.
If you’re taking the car to the US or EU… you need to conform to their crash and emission standards. Conforming to crash standards can be very expensive.
The really BIG issue is the testing necessary for the new componentry and the homologation/certification. That’s the real PITA.
I think the “no tooling available” is BS. If they can engineer a car, they can have the tooling.
I guess the issue stopping this to happen is $$$$$$. Maybe the investment doesn’t make business sense, which is a shame.
The really BIG issue is the testing necessary for the new componentry and the homologation/certification.
Absolutely no doubt. However, the Australian Falcon exceeds Australian standards which are pretty close to Japan/Middle-East and Europe.
While not wanting to understate the costs of homologation, it would be more things like; the fuel tank has to be a bit further forward, or side glass has to be a different spec (as entirely fictitious examples – I have nothing specific to offer).
I think the “no tooling available” is BS. If they can engineer a car, they can have the tooling.
The equipment to build the unique LHD parts doesn’t exist within Ford Australia or their suppliers, unlike GM Australia for their G8 attempt.
Ford and their suppliers would have to spend the money to create the necessary ability to build the unique parts.
I’m assured the engineering was done. They even costed out what they would need, but the early business case did not (does not?) stack up.
One thing is certain; you guys are definitely missing out big time.
The steering wheel size on the G8 sucks IMHO. Seems like it came from one of their trucks. I might be biased but I love the size of the wheel on my Evo X its perfect. Ford Europe does have some hot cars and I love the diesel options. Torque baby Torque!!
@quasimondo :
America already had a proper V8 RWD sports sedan that was affordable.
Wasn’t that slushbox only? Slushbox = not a sports sedan.
The bad business decision was not made when GM decided to import the Holden has a G8 it was made when they decided that they wouldnt let anyone out of the automotive blogosphere know it existed.
No, the problem was they tried to slap some “muscle lipstick” on a foreign built, euro trash styled vehicle and sell it to real AMERICANs. And as history amply demonstrates, them “Rednecks” ain’t that f____in’ stupid…
Huh???
The G8 was a Pontiac, built by General Motors…with a Pontiac VIN number and a GM small block V8 under the hood. It was as American as apple pie.
Yes, it would be a bad decision to bring this car over here. Would I love it if they did? Heck, yeah! I don’t think it will sell enough and it overlaps somewhat with other Ford products. Like one of my friends that works at a dealer said, most people buying don’t give a damn about RWD or performance cars. It’s just us nuts. It’s a smarter business decision to put some performance parts into a mainstream sedan like Ford has done with the new SHO. That way you’re not trying to pay for an entire model line through enthusiast sales.
GM did muck up the G8 though. Besides not offering the DI V6 in the first year (would have been something to tout with high gas prices), they stuck it in the dying Pontiac brand instead of Chevrolet, and didn’t market it very well (much like most models that aren’t Malibu or CTS). When I bought my G8 GT in February, most people had NO idea about that car. I was asked if it was FWD, if it was based off the G6. They’d never even heard of the name. It’s actually gotten better the last couple months with GM spamming their 0% interest commercials that include the G8. I went to customer sites a couple weeks ago and EVERY day, at different locations, somebody there would compliment my car. They actually had heard of it. Too little, too late, GM! I still love my car, despite the fact that it’s a Pontiac.