Call it tall poppy syndrome. Even as the world’s largest automaker’s fell into the U.S. new car sales quagmire, Toyota’s critics slated the brand’s quality “issues.” The Detroit News [sub] reports that freshly-minted CEO Akio Toyoda has ticked all the boxes in his efforts to reassure his stakeholders (as opposed to steak holders) and say the right thing to everyone about everything. “Toyoda emphasized the company’s core principles, including the need to produce clean vehicles for the benefit of society. But, he said, ‘we must do it in a way that’s affordable to today’s customers.’ That is the key challenge for the industry, which is ‘at a point where we must re-invent the automobile.’ But Toyoda, a racing enthusiast, said one of his objectives as head of the company was to inject excitement into the lineup. He said Toyota planned to develop an affordable, fun-to-drive sports car in the next few years but did not elaborate.” So green, affordable, [somewhat] exciting, affordable and . . . what was that again? High quality. How come the DetN didn’t put that in a direct quote?
Bring back the MR2…quality be damned!
The Toyota brand has been coasting for awhile now. Although they still make good cars they have lagged in innovation and creativity. They need to expand their reach into cars that attract buyers who are looking for more than just four wheels to get from point A to B.
The good news for Toyota, unlike GM, is that Toyota has the infastructure and leadership to make good on their promises and needs. As someone who wants the American Car industry to do well, I hope both GM and Chrylser take notes over the next few years especially if Toyota does make the needed changes.
So Toyota is benchmarking Hyundai?
I want to step up and defend toyota here, but No_Slushbox is probably right. I forsee a Supra Halo car flash-in-the-pan along the lines of nuCamaro and nuChallenger.
The alternator may be going out on the families 03 Matrix XRS, there’s been some other problems too. It’s a far cry from the bulletproof 85 corolla we had (but way more useful, and lots more fun to drive).
And if we wanted to replace it, there’s noting like it in the Toyota lineup.
Bring back the 2000GT…affordability (and hybrids) be damned!
I am not too impressed with that ‘baby kisser’ speech
Racing – green – high quality – affordable
Just another campaign speech.
I think the picture above is of a Toyota dealer laughing at the new CEO right before the dealer attaches the supplelemental dealer sticker adding $3000 worth of Toyoguard, pinstripes, and market adjustment to a $12K Yaris.
Few things have been as exaggerated as Toyota’s alledged “fall in reliability”.
Their few mis-steps (Tundra/Camry last year) would have hardly garnered a foot note if they had come from any other company except Honda.
And the problems get fixed quickly, note how the CR scores for the Cam/Tund improved in one year.
They continue to have a corporate average on reliability that only Honda can compare with.
And yes, they have been very boring in recent years. I would love it if they would come out with something i want to buy again.
These guys are definately not the new GM.
Thank God, like the world needs another one of those.
Bunter
I haven’t posted this comment before but here goes…
my theory is that Honda and Toyota started long ago diverting resources towards drivetrain technologies and platforms that were predicated on a future with ever decreasing reliance on petroleum based products. I would further wager that they have ready-to-roll technologies that they are simply petering out to the consumer at a rate that ensures they are at the front of the curve when it comes to their competitors… there would NO ADDED VALUE to release a Prius that could do 75mpg when 50mpg provides the same general sales volume.
I think one of the best examples(and only plausible explanation I can come up with) has been Honda’s strange reluctance to adopt a proper 6 speed transmission (now being released in the new MDX and ZDX). I simply believe that whereas the competitors spent large sums getting these units into their vehicles to offer better mileage and performance, Honda chose to allow their relative engine efficiencies do the walking while they diverted the requisite resources towards furthering their fuel cell tech and related componentry. They didnt feel spending the few hundred million to get that 6th cog in a short time frame was worth the investment in human and financial capital. They diverted it elsewhere. Not to bonuses and compensation, but to other technologies that are simply waiting to be put into the production line.
I really truly believe the Honda/Toyota could very easily build and sell vehicle with the style of an AM Vantage, the performance of a Z06, at the price of a GTR. But they dont. Not because they cant, but because they dont need to.
Everyone can say they need more performance, but my hunch is that they are busily perfecting technology that the competition will be faced with reverse engineering once the product(s) are deployed….
Honda did the NSX in ’91. Toyota did the Supra in ’93. These cars are incredible machines even by todays standard. Everyone marvels at the BMW TT 3.0 inline six, yet the supra had this type of powerplant putting out 320hp / 315tq 16 years ago.
My point is, Toyota and Honda have the quality they put out by choice. Not because they cant or have “lost their way”. They have chosen to remain in the lead by the margin they have carefully calculated. Maybe Toyota removed a little too much quality in the name of profit, maybe, but i would disagree. In the long run, these two firms are not pissing away the lead. They are busily solidifying their next generation or two of technologies…
just my 2 cents…
“We feel more comfortable being behind someone else and not No. 1,”
Yoshi Inaba in the Detroit Free Press
My Princess bought herself an 06 Corolla new. It has gone 81k miles with out much more than 5k oil changes. I find little fault with it. A kitchen stove has more soul though.
Fresh leadership (and a member of the founding family) brings a renewed emphasis on the basics that made Toyota Toyota. This is what GM should have done but chose not to.
What a perverse world: GM wants to be number one but never will be again. Toyota wants to be number two, won’t be able to if it follows the plan that the leader is setting, because it will continue to pull away from an ever-shriveling GM.
It is also curious that the only two companies (at least selling in the US) that have a shot at number 1 are companies with members of the founding familys very much in control. Maybe your name really does have to be on the front door to make you care about the long term.
Bunter
+1
“Bring back the MR2”
You beat me to it.
As for Honda’s 6th gear automatic thing; Honda designs their own transmissions. It was easy for everyone else to jump on board with 6speeds because they all use the same transmission suppliers. So not only does Honda have to design their own and put it through exhaustive testing (they had better considering the late 90s Accord/Oddysey/TL/etc debacle), but they probably weren’t sold on the cost/benefit equation of designing it. How much of a difference does it really make?
Bunter:
And yes, they have been very boring in recent years.
I used to think there would be a market for a “Corolla Type-S” – add $3-5K worth of engine & suspension upgrades – & charge accordingly.
Now I’m skeptical.
‘Boring’ and ‘reliability’ are soulmates. The new trend in thriftyness bodes well for Toyota, although I prefer other (Mazda / Nissan) makes.
Sears used to have tool lines labeled
Good – Better – Best
I believe that Toyota drive trains and electricals are still in the Better catagory however in order to maintain a price point they have reduced interior materials, paint and trim to the Good category.
I would imagine that by increasing the price of the car 5% they could move the interior materials back to the Better category and recapture some of their image.
I still place Toyota drivetrains in the better-to-best category. They have good low-end torque and competitive horsepower numbers for their size (granted that those sizes are often a size or two smaller than the competition) and nearly unbeatable fuel economy. Only Honda comes close, and they only get beaten in testing because Honda actually cares about how their customers feel about their cars… thus programming a little more “zing” into the engines at the expense of outright EPA numbers.
But the fall in quality of Toyota’s interiors is disturbing. If you know better, you won’t mind… but for the average joe on the street, believing that you’ve spent money wisely when your car’s interior isn’t categorically better than a Korean car that’s significantly cheaper is a big leap of faith.
Oh. And their suspensions and handling are dismal. Five minutes behind the wheel of a Corolla is all it takes for anyone with sense to walk out of the dealership and head on down to Honda next door.
“And their suspensions and handling are dismal.”
An Elantra actually handles significantly worse. The Sentra isn’t really any better than a ‘rolla with its marshmallow suspension and loose steering with zero feel. The Civic and 3 feel like sports cars in comparison.
I think the engine is a problem with that new Corolla. They keeping rolling over the 1.8L with each new model, and since it keeps getting bigger and heavier, it’s getting slower and less efficient with each gen. Particularly this latest model; I drove it right after a Yaris and it actually felt slower.
I think the engine is a problem with that new Corolla. They keeping rolling over the 1.8L with each new model, and since it keeps getting bigger and heavier, it’s getting slower and less efficient with each gen.
The 1.8L returns very good real-world fuel economy despite the actual car’s weight. This matters to Corolla buyers, and thusly Toyota still offers it.
The performance isn’t half-bad either. It’s nothing to write home about, sure, but it’s enough for 95% of what most actual car buyers do.
Few things have been as exaggerated as Toyota’s alledged “fall in reliability”.
+1. This particular bit of internet crowd-wisdom has proven, objectively, to be false.
What Toyota has had is teething problems with new models. Note that this isn’t entirely new, either: the 4Runner and Van/Previa/Sienna always had some trouble in their first years.
What Toyota also does do is use thoroughly unexciting plastics in their base models. What reviewers and enthusiasts have failed to note is that the buying public really doesn’t care care about soft dashboards in places no one ever touches as long as the plastic isn’t egregiously cheap (and it doesn’t, really; not for the class). As long as the armrest is padded, the controls easy to use and nothing breaks no one will miss the padded plastic dash in their economy car
Yes, the Corolla 1.8L isn’t an A3 2.0T. News flash: Corolla buyers don’t care.
ETA: I realize I come across as a Toyota fanatic when I don’t really mean to, and the comments above could apply equally to the Civic and, to a lesser degree the Elantra or Focus. What bugs me is the knee-jerk stereotypes that run most discussions.
@suspekt
Interesting perspective. Back when IBM ruled the computing world they would trumpet the performance gain of a new piece of hardware – “it’s 10% faster than its predecessor!”
What they didn’t tell you is that in the lab they had it running 200% faster than its predecessor, but they were going to take that innovation and spread it over multiple release cycles.
I would think that if Honda or Toyota truly have “game changers” in the lab that the time is fast approaching to play those cards.
Demetri :
August 5th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
“And their suspensions and handling are dismal.”
An Elantra actually handles significantly worse. The Sentra isn’t really any better than a ‘rolla with its marshmallow suspension and loose steering with zero feel. The Civic and 3 feel like sports cars in comparison.
Ah… but Hyundai suspensions of the past have always been drek. And yet, they keep pushing their suspension tuning further and further upmarket on every model change. The current i-series of Hyundais are almost at parity with the Japanese…
Sentra? Wossat? Is that the new Datsun? Shameful as it is to admit, despite being a long-time Nissan fan, and owner-driver of at least six previous Sentras, I couldn’t care one iota about the dreadful new box Nissan is flogging…
It’s the Civic and Mazda3 Toyota should be worried about. Especially so, since both are better than the Corolla, despite one being an outgoing model (replaced by the new 2009-2010 Mazda3) and the other is already three years old.
–
Customers may not really care about the low-rent interior of the Yaris or the Corolla… but they also won’t care enough to buy a new one when their current car is on its last legs. Spending that extra tiny bit on “character” touches like a good interior, some steering feel or even a little pizzazz in the styling… will make the difference between a single sale and a lifetime customer.
suspekt :
I agree with Samuel – interesting perspective, but it just doesn’t ring true to me.
I can accept the logic of wanting to be just ahead – but not much – of the pack, but that doesn’t mean that Toyota has game changing technology (or other abilities) ready to go and not used only because of a “one step ahead only” policy.
It’s much more likely (IMO) that there are other reasons why such improvements are not introduced (yet), such as trade-offs in cost, reliability, performance or convenience.
A 75 mpg Prius III may have been quite achievable but at what cost? Or with less performance or reliability than the previous model? Those would be unacceptable compromises for a car which is being sold to the mainstream consumer – not enthusiasts like most of the participants in this site.
Another recent interesting comment (by psarhjinian I think) was that some drop in Toyota’s standards (interiors and aesthetic design generally?) may be due to the enormous engineering effort that must have gone (and continues to) into the Prius and hybrid drive trains generally.
I think that this is quite likely. There have been many arguments about the Prius on TTAC but I remain astonished at the scale of it as an engineering achievement. It is the only car I can think of that has succesfully sold a significant development in car propulsion to the general motoring public. It would never have worked if it wasn’t dead set reliable. Love it or hate it, it’s an amazing achievement where others have failed (I’m thinking RO80). It must have taxed the engineering resources of Toyota (and its partners in development). I’m not surprised if they’re a bit off in other areas.
Toyota should be thinking about how they will respond if VW ever gets the reliability thing nailed down. VW already makes entertaining cars with very nice interiors and is doing well in emerging markets. The biggest thing holding VW back is reliability problems. For some reason all of the European auto makers have been putting out very hit and miss products reliability wise for some time now. Why is that?
And in another press release, Toyota previewed its new J-Car series, which the company promises will “drive the Koreans back to their shores”.
Toyota should be thinking about how they will respond if VW ever gets the reliability thing nailed down.
Somehow that doesn’t strike me as the greatest risk Toyota is currently facing.
I would further wager that they have ready-to-roll technologies that they are simply petering out to the consumer at a rate that ensures they are at the front of the curve when it comes to their competitors…
There are no magic bullets in automotive engineering that any of these companies are (or can afford to) sit on.
I think Toyota is doing just fine as far a reliability is concerned. Sure they had a few problems with the new tundra/camry, but they took care of them and CR rates these vehicles average or better now. My prius is the best car I have ever owned and I would recommend it to anyone wanting a top class car. And most corolla buyer probably could care less about the plastic as long as it doesn’t break and is rattle/squeak free. The real problem toyota has is hyundai. Their prices are really competitive and they are bound and determined to defeat the japanese. Right now they are feeding off of GM/Chrysler buyers, but their real goal is to be number one and that means toyota must fall. And every year hyundai has more cars that are rated ‘recommended’ by CR. Hyundai’s products are starting to make even GM products look shoddy. GM’s complete implosion has really cleared the way for hyundai to capture GM’s ‘low price’ bottom-feeding customers.
“He said Toyota planned to develop an affordable, fun-to-drive sports car in the next few years but did not elaborate.”
I think this may mean that the on-again, off-again Toyobaru project is on-again and going full steam ahead. Good, I suppose. Perhaps they should start to crib notes from Hyundai and learn what they did right and what they did wrong with the Genesis Coupe, then build on the legacy/notoriety of the AE86 Sprinter Trueno (the hero car in Initial D)and for the love of god keep the hybrid stuff out of there.
That’s just my gut reaction, though.
Hyundai’s products are starting to make even GM products look shoddy.
Actually Hyundai’s products are starting to make everyone’s products look shoddy, at least in my experience. My 2008 Santa Fe has better build quality than any of the GM, Honda, Mazda or Nissan products which I (or my family members) have owned over the past 25 years. It has been 100% trouble-free during its first two years of service, despite some hard duty as a summer tow vehicle and winter commuter.
In 2005 Toyota publicly identified Hyundai as its greatest competitive threat, and the evidence is mounting that they were right. All this lip service about Toyota returning to its roots, while quality declines and product lines multiply, is not fooling anyone.
It is pointless knocking the newly crowned world’s top carmaker. When GM finally loses Opel, Toyota has it made.
“6speeds … How much of a difference does it really make?”
I have an 08 328i that replaced an 04 325i – the 08 has a 6 speed where the 04 had a 5. Granted the cars are slightly different, but even with the slightly increased displacement and power, the cars and their engines are essentially the
same.
The 6 speed 328i is getting about 24 mpg on average vs. the 22 that the 5 speed 325i got.
That’s a significant improvement.
So, I tend to believe that there is improvement to be gained from additional gear ratios. Whether the law of diminishing returns kicks in at 6 speeds, 7, or 8, I can’t say.
As for Honda and Toyota taking a long-term look at the demands of the market – that’s a fundamental difference between their business culture and the Detroit model. They are willing to accept short-losses on a model during its development phase in order to achieve long-term profit.
Contrast this to GM where we continue to get “Hail Mary” attempts like the Volt which will be rushed into mass production. They should follow the Prius model where only a few are released, tested, refined the following year, and then real “mass” production only started after the design has been completely worked out
suspekt :
August 5th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
I haven’t posted this comment before but here goes…
my theory is that Honda and Toyota started long ago diverting resources towards drivetrain technologies and platforms that were predicated on a future with ever decreasing reliance on petroleum based products. I would further wager that they have ready-to-roll technologies that they are simply petering out to the consumer at a rate that ensures they are at the front of the curve when it comes to their competitors… there would NO ADDED VALUE to release a Prius that could do 75mpg when 50mpg provides the same general sales volume.
I think one of the best examples(and only plausible explanation I can come up with) has been Honda’s strange reluctance to adopt a proper 6 speed transmission (now being released in the new MDX and ZDX). I simply believe that whereas the competitors spent large sums getting these units into their vehicles to offer better mileage and performance, Honda chose to allow their relative engine efficiencies do the walking while they diverted the requisite resources towards furthering their fuel cell tech and related componentry. They didnt feel spending the few hundred million to get that 6th cog in a short time frame was worth the investment in human and financial capital. They diverted it elsewhere. Not to bonuses and compensation, but to other technologies that are simply waiting to be put into the production line.
I really truly believe the Honda/Toyota could very easily build and sell vehicle with the style of an AM Vantage, the performance of a Z06, at the price of a GTR. But they dont. Not because they cant, but because they dont need to.
Everyone can say they need more performance, but my hunch is that they are busily perfecting technology that the competition will be faced with reverse engineering once the product(s) are deployed….
Honda did the NSX in ‘91. Toyota did the Supra in ‘93. These cars are incredible machines even by todays standard. Everyone marvels at the BMW TT 3.0 inline six, yet the supra had this type of powerplant putting out 320hp / 315tq 16 years ago.
My point is, Toyota and Honda have the quality they put out by choice. Not because they cant or have “lost their way”. They have chosen to remain in the lead by the margin they have carefully calculated. Maybe Toyota removed a little too much quality in the name of profit, maybe, but i would disagree. In the long run, these two firms are not pissing away the lead. They are busily solidifying their next generation or two of technologies…
just my 2 cents…
One of the best 2 cents I ever read… I totally agree with you suspekt. People kick around the toyondas with having weak engines and tin can designs but the truth is they dont give a damn as they are already having a good time with what theyre doing…