More details about the Volt’s charging system emerged at a GM FastLane livechat with charging equipment engineer Gery Kissel. Kissel reveals that the Volt will have 120V and 240V power chargers, but the 240V unit will be wall-mounted and hard-wired. Though the 240V charger will refill batteries much quicker (3.3 kW), it won’t be portable. Though the 120V will be able to plug into any outlet, it will charge more slowly (1.2 kW) and the cord will only be 20 feet long. Kissel said code required the cord to be under 25 feet or have some kind of management system to keep it off the ground. A retractable cord has been ruled out, and a decision hasn’t been made to allow the cord to lock to the vehicle while charging.
Another issue comes from a question by “evchels” (aka Chelsea Sexton of Who Killed The Electric Car):
While it’s not crucial for PHEV/EREVs, do you expect at some point to enable the Volt w 6.6kW charging capability, given that much of the public charging will likely land in that range- and the existing infrastructure is already ~240v/40a?
Kissel’s reply:
The current size of the Volt charger is based on the battery size and recharge requirements. Unless one of those changes, we are going to stick with 3.3KW.
In short, without changes in battery and recharging equipment, the Volt seems to be behind the curve for most public recharging infrastructure developments. But another question reveals just how concerned Kissel and the Volt team are about such esoteric non-home charging developments. “Dustin” asks:
The 40mi range would be perfect for city traffic, are there any solutions for those who do not have a garage or electric hookup? Lots of people park in the road at home and work… If no solution, what kind of alternatives are being investigated?
Kissel’s reply:
This is really an infrastructure question. Our focus is on home charging.
Not surprising that they’re not concerning themselves with infrastructure-related charging issues, because it really isn’t their problem. They’ve already pushed for (and received) a universal charger plug design, so all that’s left is for an infrastructure to be established for street-side (or gas-station) charging systems that utilize that plug.
From what they’re planning, they’re aiming the Volt directly at suburban commuters, not city dwellers.
I was surprised to learn that this (maybe) car will not charge itself with its gas engine, like a Prius.
The Nissan Leaf is going to be much more popular than the Volt.
I suspect that this car is just a means of syphoning
government money.
There is nothing green about GM, and there never will be.
As a city dweller, I would say the car would be perfect for me, except that I live in an apartment building and park on the street.
Like everyone else for blocks and blocks and blocks.
I think non-plug in hybrids will continue to grow their market share in urban areas.
Smart dealerships will team up with local electrical contractors and find a way to simultaneously jack up the price of the home upgrades and bury the cost in the car loan.
A true win-win!
Off topic, but I was wondering if anyone has calculated the economic damage of the cash for clunkers to Ford/GM/Chrysler..
Here is my logic:
1) I’ve read that the majority of cars being traded in were old US makes. So that helps to dry up the profitable parts/service business for the domestics
2) I’ve read that the majority of cars being purchased were foreign brands so that would seem to line Toyota’s/Honda’s pockets with a fresh infusion of cash.
3) We’ve seen for years (decades actually) that the domestics lose money on cars and make money on SUVs and Trucks. So unless GM and Chrysler magically figured out how to be profitable on small cars, wouldn’t every sale just be a cash drain?
So did we borrow $3B from the Chinese just push GM, Chrysler and Ford closer to more government fundulation?
3300 W / 240 V = 13.75 A
1200 W / 120 V = 10 A
Most 240 V circuits in the US are fused at 30 A. Limiting the Volts charging at high voltage to an amperage that is less than 40% more than the low voltage number suggests that the real limiting factor is in the car. My guess is that it is the management of the heat created by charging. To many amps and the batteries will become fireworks.
Robert Schwartz: Bingo. Kissel makes it clear that charging rates are slightly more limited on the vehicle than the charger.
Check out http://www.baileycar.com he has it pegged on Cost of same for the Volt and others like it.
City dwellers are anti-car crazies anyway, it’s not like they’ll buy these Volts anyhow.
… 6.6kW charging capability, given that much of the public charging will likely land in that range…
Does this have basis in fact, or is it an assumption or prediction on the part of Miss Sexton? The article takes it as fact, but it is news to me. Could someone supply a source for this?
I was surprised to learn that this (maybe) car will not charge itself with its gas engine, like a Prius.
Um, huh? It’s just the opposite as you describe. The Volt’s engine *only* charges the batteries; unlike the Prius, it doesn’t directly drive the wheels at all. The Volt is a “series” hybrid, while the Prius is a “parallel” hybrid.
So, just how is the gas engine supposed to work…? No, really.
If my battery is low, will it start up automatically, and run full blast until everything is recharged? Or, do I have to start the engine – as one typically would, and just sit in the drivers seat for 3-4 hours while the batteries get topped off?
I would expect that the engine run at its most economical speed and load – probably about 4500-5000 rpm (supposing the torque peak is right around there). So I just imagine a shopping mall parking lot – indoor one even better – full of Chevy Volt’s sitting untended with the engines revving away….
I’m mystified at the grumbling that the Volt would be initially most practical to the suburban owner with a garage, or at least on-property parking and an extension cord from the house.
So there’s no set plan for inner city charging setups? So what? I seem to remember reading that back in 1905 (probably a good parallel point for the gasoline engine vs. today’s electric), most gasoline was bought from drugstores. And filling stations were just starting to conceptualize.
The same will happen if the electric car takes off, and will develop in parallel with the cars – at a profit, of course. The alternative?
Well, can you imagine what our gasoline fillups would be like if Teddy Roosevelt had decided that the government had to step in regarding tanking up one’s automobile?
The Volt’s engine *only* charges the batteries
I don’t think so. The Volt’s gasoline engine spins a generator which provides power for the electric motors. Imagine removing the drive shaft from a car, place a generator at the engine end and an electric motor at the axle end and connect them with wires, that is how it will work.
If my battery is low, will it start up automatically
It’s not efficient to charge the batteries from the engine, that will mostly be done with off-peak grid power. Once the batteries run low they become dead weight.
I thought that GM already invented a standardized charging connector back with the EV1. What happened to that “standard”. The photo of the three different charging stations in this article is instructive: http://ev1-club.power.net/newchg.htm
I can hear it now:
“The Volt is GM’s secret weapon to kill mass transit in the cities. They want everyone in cars and off of rail and out of buses, and they will use this Trojan Horse to achieve that objective. We are all going to end up collectively using more energy with the Volt.”
“So, just how is the gas engine supposed to work…? No, really.
If my battery is low, will it start up automatically, and run full blast until everything is recharged? Or, do I have to start the engine – as one typically would, and just sit in the driver”
As GM have explained many times, when the battery is depleted then the engine turns on and maintains the battery SoC between this minimum level, around 25%, and some higher, but not very high level like 30%. Meanwhile it also supplies the power to drive the car. If the SoC exceeds this higher level due to a long regen or a partial external charge, then the IC switches off again.
What I want edition…
A hybrid kit car that I can scale up/down as I need to.
Let’s say that each battery provides 2 miles of distance.
And maybe the engine can be sized up/down to charge more batteries or charge the same batteries faster.
So I buy a shell, put in 6 batteries and a “small engine” to handle a 3 mile commute… Then say my job changes and my commute is longer.. I add another 6 batteries and/or go with the “medium engine”.
Now a year later my job moves again, much closer. I can pull a few cells out and resell them on eBay to someone else who just got a longer commute. Same with the engine. Maybe I kept the “small” engine and I put it back in to drop the weight and increase the efficiency.
I’m really curious how the Volt is going to handle long uphill grades with a load of passengers and their luggage on board. Once the batteries are depleted, which will happen very fast trying to pull a load up a long mountain grade, you will be left with a 1.4l engine and a rather inefficient drive train. Converting the ICE’s output from mechanical energy into electricity and then converting that electricity back into mechanical energy entail losses. And, it is only a 1.4l engine to begin with! Most reports put the Volt’s curb weight around 3500 lbs. before passengers and luggage.
Are original VW Buses going to be able to blow the doors of a Volt through central Colorado?
This poses no problems in Australia where 240v is standard and a lot of people have 3 phase already wired into the garage/shed/bloke’s haven. Plus the fact that our state premier (South Australia)has had talks/kowtowed/pleaded with GM to build the Volt/Cruze at Elizabeth, I can see a Hybrid Cruze in every South Australians garage or at least in every goverment garage. All powered by brown coal produced electricity.
@ John Horner
A good point… which gets me wondering about diesel-electric locomotives. Traditionally they’ve been series hybrids, but now that parallel hybrid technology like what’s found in the Prius is here, it makes me wonder if locomotive manufacturers would be wise to use Synergy-type drives. After all, locomotives run at freeway speeds all the time, where the ICE shines and you don’t have mechanical -> electrical -> mechanical losses. So once they’re up to speed, wouldn’t it better to switch to mechanical drive?
Greg Locock :
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:48 pm
As GM have explained many times, when the battery is depleted then the engine turns on and maintains the battery SoC between this minimum level, around 25%, and some higher, but not very high level like 30%. Meanwhile it also supplies the power to drive the car. If the SoC exceeds this higher level due to a long regen or a partial external charge, then the IC switches off again.
I appreciate the point of distinguishing between a parallel and series hybrid, but it seems to me that the Volt will function very much like a Prius. It’s just that when the battery is low the Prius ICE provides power to the electric motor, charges the batteries and powers the wheels directly. The Volt just does the first two.
Of course the Volt also has a battery pack with much more capacity and (I assume) a more powerful electric motor because the ICE never drives the wheels directly.
I wonder why Toyota did not use a system like the Volt’s (which I assume would require a simpler drive train). Is it because the Prius ICE will spend much more time powering the car than with a Volt, which therefore dictates a different engineering solution?
A good point… which gets me wondering about diesel-electric locomotives. Traditionally they’ve been series hybrids, but now that parallel hybrid technology like what’s found in the Prius is here, it makes me wonder if locomotive manufacturers would be wise to use Synergy-type drives. After all, locomotives run at freeway speeds all the time, where the ICE shines and you don’t have mechanical -> electrical -> mechanical losses. So once they’re up to speed, wouldn’t it better to switch to mechanical drive?
Series hybrids are more efficient then parallel hybrids ALWAYS. Engines running at infinitely various RPMs are far less efficient then a generator that runs at just a few highly efficient speeds with excess power feeding into capacitors or batteries . Also, feeding two power sources into a CVT is cost effective but simply can’t handle huge amounts of torque like a train needs to get to speed. You don’t even want to know how ungodly expensive the LS600h’s CVT costs to handle a V8’s torque. GM’s two-mode hybrid system is VASTLY superior to the Ford/Toyota system in torque heavy usage, it just doesn’t scale down well to small cars.
So I guess we head for a strangers house and spying an unprotected AC outlet on the outside of the house we simply help ourselves to some nice green energy.
Or recharge at work. I’m sure the company won’t mind us recharging our car on their tab, they don;t mind personal phone calls, faxes, photocopies or web surfing either.
I’m sure everyone has power delivered to their home at 5 cents a kw/hr so this should save all kinds of money compared to gasoline. Or maybe not, since most of us pay 10-20 cents kw/hr and there are plans to hike that to 30 or 40 in order to make wind power an option.
If you have solar panels and a hefty inverter/battery system by all means charge your ride at home. I still think Toyota could make a real plug in car work better, if only because they are clever enough to have the gasoline engine charge the batteries too.
“I wonder why Toyota did not use a system like the Volt’s (which I assume would require a simpler drive train). Is it because the Prius ICE will spend much more time powering the car than with a Volt, which therefore dictates a different engineering solution?”
That is a great question. The exact answer is not known to me, but I do know that the Prius’architecture was selected as the best in an American research paper ( by Teledyne or Rand I think it was) in the 70s.
Things have changed over the years, so what was the best then may not be the best now. In particular electric motors have got much more efficient, and cheaper, so an all electric transmission looks more attractive than it used to. One of the beauties of the Prius system is that most of the power most of the time is transmitted mechanically, that is, at 97% efficiency or so, which 15 years ago was not really attainable electrically, cheaply. Toyota have said that if you stick energy into the battery and pull it back out, you have effectively lost 40% on the round trip, which is why they tend not to use the battery so much.
Similarly batteries are cheaper, more compact and more efficient… if not more reliable. So the optimum solution has probably swayed towards a bigger pack.
There might also be a difference in intentions- what was the Prius’ original raison d’etre? What is the Volt’s? (OK that’s enough straight lines for the comedians).
On the one hand: in a city, wherever there’s a parking meter, you could end up with a credit-card-and-car-charging outlet. Someday. In the future. But you can bet that the hookup cables will be stolen or vandalized constantly, just because they can be.
On the other hand: I work for a highly progressive company when it comes to transit subsidies and vanpooling and the like, but when a fellow employee wanted to charge her electric car in the parking garage during the day, over two months of fighting for it got her a big fat zilch — and the total range to/from work without any charge in-between is a few miles longer than her car can tolerate.
So of course they’re concentrating on home-charging — because 99.9% of their potential customers now and in the near future will have no other options (unless they shop at a place with charging parking spaces, and those are few and far between.)
Re: mechanical->electric->mechanical losses – there are some benefits to Volt’s setup that you should take into account.
1. Mechanical drivetrains are fairly inefficient. The Volt doesn’t need a transmission, for example, which is a significant power savings, especially compared with a complicated transmission that can blend torque from two mechanical power sources.
2. Engine efficiency (W/kg fuel/s) is a peaky function. Since the Volt has no mechanical connection between the engine and the road, it can optimize that function in ways that a normal car can’t, running at a constant load at an RPM chosen to maximize efficiency.
3. Electrical to Mechanical energy conversion is surprisingly efficient. Electric drivetrains typically get in the 90% efficiency range.
So although the Volt does have more energy conversions, its overall efficiency still may end up being higher than a Prius when in charge sustaining mode. It could end up lower as well. That’s why I’m upset that GM has been so careful to conceal the Volt’s MPG in charge sustaining mode, since then we could get an idea about how a series hybrid drivetrain works in a small car compared to a parallel hybrid drivetrain. Instead they play these silly marketing games…
There’s a fair bit of mis-information going on in here.
1. Mechanical to electrical and THEN electric to mechanical is much less efficient than direct mechanical. The number is nowhere near 90%.
2. Locomotives, massive mining dump trucks and ships using diesel electric setups have competing priorities; cost, weight and packaging.
3. Locomotives need massive torque multiplication. The power required to keep a train moving at constant speed is very low, so inefficient power plants are more-or-less an acceptable trade-off. If you’re 70% efficient supplying 10% power then it’s not a massive problem.
4. You don’t even want to know how ungodly expensive the LS600h’s CVT costs to handle a V8’s torque. GM’s two-mode hybrid system is VASTLY superior to the Ford/Toyota system in torque heavy usage, it just doesn’t scale down well to small cars.
Reference/evidence please? Perhaps this will help with regards Toyota’s Power Split Device “CVT”.
@mor2bz :
I was surprised to learn that this (maybe) car will not charge itself with its gas engine, like a Prius.
It will sustain 30% or so charge with the engine – anything else would not make sense.
Why would you charge the battery to full from the engine (which is magnitudes more expensive than charging from the grid)?
A Prius doesn’t charge the battery to full from the engine either – it would completely defy the point of having a battery in the first place.
@PeteMoran
Exactly.
@TimCrothers :
t makes me wonder if locomotive manufacturers would be wise to use Synergy-type drives. After all, locomotives run at freeway speeds all the time, where the ICE shines and you don’t have mechanical -> electrical -> mechanical losses. So once they’re up to speed, wouldn’t it better to switch to mechanical drive?
Please have a look into how the Synergy Drive works. There is no point where the ICE directly drives the engine, there is always a portion of the power going through the electric path, with multiple conversions and thus losses. The CVT-like “infinite gear ratios” are reached by blending electric and ICE power through a planetary gearset.
Doesn’t make sense for highway driving. Doesn’t make sense for trains.
It makes sense to use hydraulic transmissions in locomotives. It’s quite common. http://www.voithturbo.de/highly-flexible-couplings_applications_rail-vehicles_locomotives.htm
These shortcomings with the Volt have been known for quite a while.
In fairness, the Volt can’t be blamed as much as the lithium-ion battery technology in it. As said earlier, you can’t just blast such batteries with infinite current to shorten the charging time. However, no other mainstream battery technology has the storage/weight ratio that lithium-ion does.
Charging time will be a limitation on the Nissan Leaf, also. However, Leaf drivers won’t expect the gas engine to do anything magical for them, since it won’t be there.
GM has a difficult time selling ‘normal’ cars; imagine how hard it will be for them to sell the Volt to a public that expects it to get 230 mpg.
Nice to see how the Volt is making our lives so much simpler.
“It will sustain 30% or so charge with the engine – anything else would not make sense.”
Unless you really need the boost from battery-electric power to climb a long grade or complete a high speed passing maneuver. Climbing a mountain range will very rapidly deplete that 30% charge. Then what happens?
I strongly suspect that there are going to be normal driving situations in which the Volt performs horribly. My question about what is going to happen when all you have to climb a long grade is a tiny 1.4 l gasoline engine powering 3500 lbs. plus passengers plus luggage is still very much unanswered. Why aren’t any of the media types who actually get access to the Volt asking this question?
The 230 mpg PR blitz is going to bite them in the butt. How many people will buy a Volt, run it on gasoline and then be furious that it doesn’t get anything close to 230 mpg? The 230 number is a mumbo-jumbo number based on gasoline-equivalents when the Volt is running as a pure electric. Nobody actually using gasoline will ever see a three digit fuel economy number at the pump.
@John Horner :
“It will sustain 30% or so charge with the engine – anything else would not make sense.”
Unless you really need the boost from battery-electric power to climb a long grade or complete a high speed passing maneuver. Climbing a mountain range will very rapidly deplete that 30% charge. Then what happens?
The charge goes under 30% – the 70 kW or so genset will rev up a bit to sustain the 30% charge. At least that’s what I would do if I were responsible for programming the Volt’s drivetrain management.
You never need more than 70 kW sustained power to power a Volt-sized car at American highway speeds. Not up a long grade. During passing maybe for a few seconds.
I strongly suspect that there are going to be normal driving situations in which the Volt performs horribly.
Sure, there is one: Flat-out high speed driving at Autobahn speeds. Which isn’t legal in the US.
So what? The Volt wouldn’t work for me.
With regards to citydwellers and Volts, I am absolutely certain that if city governments don’t bend over backwards to assure that electrical outlets are available to electric cars in designated areas, at the expense of everyone else’s convenience, then I will eat my Nolan X-lIte motorcycle helmet.
Already where I live, a town in New Jersey, they’ve taken three parking spots at the train station so a guy can park his golf cart. The golf car has lights, horn, turnsignals and seatbelts, so it’s licensed as a “Low Speed Vehicle.” There’s only one guy in town with one, and the other two parking spots are to encourage other residents to drive the same sort of vehicles.
So, if my East Coast Uber Liberal In the Shadows of NYC town is bustin’ everybody’s balls to get one of these LSV, I’m CERTAIN that cities like NYC and Boston will do their best to assure that electric meters are connected to parking meters, that private parking garages get fast-track approval on electrical upgrades, and that designated areas will be set aside EXCLUSIVELY for Volts, Leafs, etc.
Nice to know the Volt can take its coal through different cords. This should make government fleet managers – I mean “GM’s target market” – very happy.
@ Ron Panhard
Throughout the history of transportation there have been leg-ups given. The gasoline powered car seems to have had no shortage of money plowed into all forms of infrastructure.
Not everyone agreed to (or agrees with) that.
Throughout the history of transportation there have been leg-ups given. The gasoline powered car seems to have had no shortage of money plowed into all forms of infrastructure.
There is a difference between building roads for gasoline-powered automobiles in the early 20th century, versus building four parking spaces for one local resident in 2009. The former is a rational response to widespread consumer/taxpayer demand, whereas the latter is somebody’s pet project.
As to the people questioning whether the 1.4L engine would be enough for passing or going up hills: It doesn’t need to be. The engine only needs to be able to generate the *average* amount of power used in adverse driving conditions, not *peak* power. When you start going up a hill or passing, the battery charge drops. When you go down the other side of the hill or slow back down, the battery charge rises back up. Hence, the engine only needs to be able to provide for your *average* speed and your *average* slope.
To address some more misconceptions:
1) “Most of us” don’t pay anywhere near 20 cents per kWh. The average is just over 10 cents.
2) The Volt is more efficient than direct drive for the same reason that conventional parallel hybrids are more efficient: engines only hit their peak efficiency in a very narrow power band. Plus, a system like the Volt can go with a 98% efficient single-gear transmission instead of a 85-90% manual or a 80-85% automatic.
3) Climbing a mountain will not “very rapidly deplete that 30% charge”. 30% charge is 4.8kWh, or about 24 miles range. The Volt is to be about 1,600 kilograms. At 9.81m/s^2 and, say, a 90% efficiency at turning the electricity into gravitational potential energy change (over the normal losses), that equals an increase in altitude of 3,250 feet. You know how far you have to drive on an interstate to gain 3,250 feet altitude? They’re capped at 6% grade, and will rarely average (when all ups and downs are considered) more than 1-2%. And all that time, your generator will be running nonstop, refilling the pack.
There’s no normal situation in which you will drain the pack.
4) Even on coal, the Volt will be cleaner in almost every respect than virtually any other vehicle on the road. Power plants are more efficient than ICEs, have centralized scrubbers, and release their emissions further away from where people breathe.
5) The reason you can’t have a Prius run in he series hybrid mode all the time is because the electric motor isn’t powerful enough. Hence, the gasoline engine *must* come on at high speeds or high acceleration. If you want to run it in pure electric mode, even if you buy one of those add-on packs, you have to treat it like a low-speed vehicle.
re: Diesel-electric locomotives at least around here, d/e locomotives do not pull the train directly. The trains are normally electric, there are electric motors on the wheels of every car. The overhead wires, however, are only strung so many miles from NYC. When a train has to go beyond that range, they use the d/e locomotive, and it switches to diesel once they go past the catenary wires. The diesel is essentially a rolling generator, providing electric power to the motors on each wheel of the entire train, rather than doing a diesel-electric to electric-mechanical conversion for only the locomotive. Much more efficient.