Let’s assume for a moment that Hybrid Kinetic Motors and its planned Alabama assembly plant are not just a visa scam. Say, for example, it’s a visa scam that will actually build cars at some point. Can anyone make sense of the limited powertrain specs we have to work with? We’re told the vehicles will have a 1.5-liter combustion engine, capable of running gasoline or compressed natural gas. The curious part is the “hybrid kinetic” element, which will include a battery-electric hybrid system and, one assumes, some form of kinetic energy storage. Brilliance, the Chinese company whose former executives are behind HK Motors have only shown mild hybrids, leading one to assume this drivetrain technology was not developed there. However, Brilliance does build BMWs in China, and the Bavarians have adapted a “Kinetic Energy Recovery System” (KERS), which was created for Formula 1, for the road. That system uses regenerative braking to store small amounts of electricity which can be used to boost power for short periods. HK Motors’ claim that it will get 45 mpg out of a 1.5-liter ICE sounds reasonable, but the “up to 400 hp” spec sounds like pie in the sky. Unless that kind of power is only available for short bursts in a BMW KERS-style system. And though BMW’s F1 team has abandoned KERS, there’s talk of it coming to road cars like the next-gen M5. So has HK Motors licensed/stolen “flybrid” technology, or is there another system that could plausibly produce these specs? Or, are we wasting our time discussing vapor?
Visa scam? Why would anyone with $1,000,000 in his/her pocket invest it here to immigrate to soon to be third world US?
I was under the impression KERS on F1 cars couldn’t give more than 80-100hp boost for a few seconds ONLY.
Not sure how +80-100hp = 400 hp in a 1.5L. that doesn’t mean it’s not RELATED to the f1 kers system a lot of teams us, but I’m sure it isn’t identical…
Edit: I was close…6.6 seconds/lap for 82hp boost:
http://www.gizmag.com/formula-one-kers/11324/
An intelligent article on KERS can be found here: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/technology/385493/ferrari-f1-kers.html
KERS is a lot more mature than you might imagine given its presence in the F1 circus (circus).
Well, regenerative braking is nothing new, nor is electric motor boost, so where’s the mystery?
Don’t forget, KERS was highly constrained by rules and the physics of F1 cars (weight being #1, 2 and 3 on the list). Given the willingness to tote around hundreds of lbs of batteries, instead of the 60 or so in KERS, maybe you could get 400 hp.
And why would a street car company buy an F1 technology directly? Sure, KERS was cooked up to provide a testbed for better, lighter, hybrid technology, but it hasn’t produced any breakthrough so radical it would have to be licensed directly from the team…
From the al.com story:There, the company, led by Chinese auto tycoon Benjamin Yeung, plans to build cars, sport utility vehicles, crossover vehicles and large trucks. All will use hybrid technology, combining compressed natural gas, electricity and gasoline to power the vehicle.
All the HK Motors vehicles will feature a 1.5-liter engine, but despite the engine’s size, the hybrid power sources will allow it to generate up to 400 horsepower, according to C.T. Wang, chief executive of HK Motors.
They will get at least 45 miles per gallon, Wang said, and the plug-in vehicle planned by the carmaker can go 600 miles on a single charge.
This smells extremely fishy. No way they’re going to build “large trucks” with that 1.5 liter engine; the 400 hp claim is equally fishy; and the 600 mile range plug-in “on a single charge” is just absurd.
The whole thing is highly suspect, and its not ZAP, for a change.
Yeah, combine the dodgy claims of some EV makers, and the dodgy claims of some Chinese car makers, and you get some serious imagineering!
This smells extremely fishy. No way they’re going to build “large trucks” with that 1.5 liter engine; the 400 hp claim is equally fishy
They’re probably just gonna sell decals. Every high school kid knows you can get 300hp out of a 1.5 Honda just by drilling holes in the muffler. Some “Powered by F1*KERS” decals should get you well over 400hp.
sitting@home:
LOL.
Since the EV’s of the future will be silent, may the next big ricer mod will an mp3 of a punched muffler Civic that you can play on your car stereo!
This has scam written all over it…sorry, but the Chinese seem like a group of pathological liars, with no respect for intellectual property rights, to boot. Bad news.
Disturbing that they are bringing this crap to our shores, and our best ‘bought and paid for’ politicians are holding the door open for them.
Meanwhile, financial subsidies, tax breaks, and other assistance for foreign manufacturers to set up shop here gets a pass, but assistance for domestic producers is socialism? Explain please…
“the Bavarians have adapted a “Kinetic Energy Recovery System” (KERS), which was created for Formula 1, for the road.”
Really any proof of this, at all? Other than of course every other regen braking system out there? Why would they have to use BMWs?
“So has HK Motors licensed/stolen “flybrid” technology, or is there another system that could plausibly produce these specs?”
Where did flybrid suddenly come from, I thought we were talking about BMW? BMW KERs was never a flybrid system. Let alone a flybrid system would be very difficult on a road car, because keeping a good vaccuum for the flywheel would be harder than on a race car.
Eventually people will understand that F1 does nothing for road car technology. It is simply a marketing exercise, that is why the budgets come from marketing and not R&D. It is like saying the ladder on the lunar lander improved the ladder technology at the hardware store, it is just ridiculous. The requirements are so different between F1 and road cars, it is silly to expect the solutions to be the same.
Eventually people will understand that F1 does nothing for road car technology. It is simply a marketing exercise, that is why the budgets come from marketing and not R&D. It is like saying the ladder on the lunar lander improved the ladder technology at the hardware store, it is just ridiculous. The requirements are so different between F1 and road cars, it is silly to expect the solutions to be the same.
Everything you say is probably true, though probably more so for NASCRAP, but I recall Honda saying it liked to go racing because it taught its engineers how to think fast and respond to problems even faster.
Why do I still have more faith in some Chinese unknown than Detroit bringing out some true game changing tech? I mean actually bringing it to the market – not just hyping it for year after year after year after year…
No, I don’t want the Chinese to “win”, I want the home grown guys to “win” and I don’t care it is is Tesla, Fisker or Detroit but I’d prefer anybody but Detroit and all it’s problems.
Perhaps the Detroit guys are just too conservative and that they rely too much on patents or legislation to protect their cash cow.
I like the idea of some automotive equivalent of Linux or Google or Apple to reach the roads. Something new. Something revolutionary without first being run through the committees and focus groups that seem to effectively neuter anything. Perhaps the “supercars” don’t get neutered by the focus groups or beancounters or committees.
James2:
I think Honda’s argument is pretty legitimate and they have a real history of putting young engineers into their racing programs and then moving them to road cars. The speed of modern F1 (in terms of development, not the cars themselves) and the fact you are constantly comparing solutions to other teams out on the race track, is a great learning tool for the engineers how to solve problems. The technology transfer on the other hand is marketing, infact lots of technology has gone the other way in terms of logistics (Toyota has brought in alot of their production know how into F1 to efficiently put engines together and track failures) and improvements in reliability. I would disagree with the NASCAR argument though, since they are both going to hone the same skills.
The question is it the most cost efficient way to train engineers? What about creating small teams of engineers and give them very challenging problems to fix with tight budgets and deadlines, but little oversight? I think you would develop many of the same skills as racing. Sure some projects would fail, but that money would have been wasted anyway. Some projects would work and would provide new technology for the company and skilled engineers (also project managers and lots of other needed skills). Keep the teams lean and know most are going to fail. Possibly have two teams with the same project competing. Many auto companies keep the racing very separate from the road cars, so you do not even get what does Honda does.
I would invest in a car company led by a “chinese tycoon” as much as I would invest in a car company led by dot-com millionaires.
sfdennis1 :
September 28th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
This has scam written all over it…sorry, but the Chinese seem like a group of pathological liars, with no respect for intellectual property rights, to boot. Bad news.
No more pathological than Caucasians… it’s interesting to note that both the terms “snake oil salesman” and “Ponzi scheme” originated in America.
Be really afraid. If there’s one racial stereotype that actually holds true… it’s that Chinese businessmen, like Jewish businessmen, are shrewd, sharp and very good at juggling money. Give it thirty years and you’ll all be pecking away at Chinese keyboards in the secretarial pool of some gigantic Chinese firm.
@ niki
Just to be clear, my post was not meant to foster a racist attitude…I’m sure there are comparable terms for ‘snake oil salesman’ and ‘ponzi scheme’ in the chinese language as well…corruption and shady business practices can be found in all cultures.
That said, all one has to do is look at clone after clone, of other manufacturer’s work, that the upstart Chinese auto companies have copied, blatantly.
I have a fairly low level of trust in their integrity, and/or commitment to any level of ‘fair business play’…I’m also ready to be proved wrong, but we’ll see, I guess.
I would disagree that F1 technology does not trickle down to the Manufacturer’s road cars. I think the current BMW M5/M6 V10’s and the upcoming Lexus V10 supercar are direct products of F1 engineering.
Toyota said they would unveil the V10 supercar after an F1 win. Well they have been on the podium twice with a second place in Singapore. Keep in mind, KERS was not given a free hand and was capped severely in 09 and will have the cap raised, but not eliminated for the 10 season.
One other factor is that HP for electric engines is calculated differently from HP for ICE’s. If I am not wrong, 400 hp can be made from an “80” hp electric motor. Others could clarify this. A Hayabusa engine can spin really fast and generate a lot of electricity, or 160 hp to the wheels. With two 20+ HP electric motors, these numbers could be in reach.