It looks like the American taxpayer is going to be stuck with the bill for another unpopular struggle in the sand. This time, however, the “insurgents” don’t stand a chance. General Motors and Bob Lutz have cherrypicked the opponent for their CTS-V track showdown. Not only is Wes Siler a novice-level racetrack driver (and, I would add, a very charming fellow), the C63 AMG is far too short on power and tire to run head-to-head with Cadillac’s supersedan. Mr. Farago has informed me that General Motors will absolutely not permit TTAC to join the party. That’s a shame because I could win this race-that-isn’t. Here’s how.
In a wheel-to-wheel contest, I would take the inside line into Turn Two, abandon all pretense of making a clean pass, track out to the exit curb while matching Lutz’s speed on the brakes, and run the old man into the dirt at eighty miles per hour. Race won. We will assume, however, that this “race” will actually be a single timed lap from a rolling start.
Only a fool would agree to let Bob bring his own CTS-V. At a minimum, such a car would have a competition alignment, a blueprinted engine, and a rather enthusiastically-tuned ECU. Instead, I would insist on bringing a car from random dealer stock and observing GM’s final prep of the vehicle. When the event’s over, it could be returned under the General’s 60-day guarantee.
With a modicum of fairness assured, it would be time to choose and prep TTAC’s challenger. (That’s “challenger” with a small “c”; not only is the big Mopar a two-door and thus ineligible for this particular dog-and-pony show, it wouldn’t stand a chance.) We’re starting behind the eight-ball here, because the CTS-V very probably is faster around most racetracks than any other production sedan sold in this country. We need to come close enough for preparation and ability to close the gap.
We’ll begin by focusing on the three major factors that affect racetrack performance in otherwise similar cars: power-to-weight, tire width, and driveline layout.
The CTS-V generates 556 horsepower to push 4220 pounds, for a power-to-weight ratio of .131 hp/lb. It has exceptionally wide tires for the class at 255/40-19 front and 285/35-19 rear. With just these numbers, we can expect that Mr. Siler’s C63, which has 451 horsepower for 3920 pounds (.115 hp/lb) and tires which are 30mm narrower both front and rear, will find it impossible to keep up. The C63 also has a torque-converter automatic, which absorbs some of the engine’s power.
Given the chance, I would bring a 2010 BMW M5. The Bimmer offers 507 horsepower and a curb weight of 4012 pounds (.126 hp/lb). This is a non-trivial disadvantage, and the situation is worse than it sounds because acceleration above about 100mph is more a function of total horsepower and aero than power-to-weight. Much of Laguna Seca amounts to a series of drag races, and we’ll be playing catch-up.
To stay in the game, we will have to out-handle the Caddy by a significant margin. The M5 has exactly the same tire size as the Cadillac, which helps, and it has BMW’s usual 50/50-ish weight distribution. Still, that’s not enough. With equal drivers, in an equal situation, the CTS-V is still likely to come up on top.
The BMW does have one critical advantage: the SMG transmission. It’s garbage on the street, but around a racetrack, SMG is priceless. Not only does it eliminate shifting mistakes, which is useful in a high-pressure, single-lap situation, it allows us to left-foot brake for the entire track. Left-foot-braking can be worth up to a second a lap, which would go a long way towards fixing our power deficiency.
We can also prepare the car a bit. “Crash bolts” in the M5’s MacPherson struts will give us some camber to address the typical BMW understeer issues. A few minutes with an angle grinder can provide even more. We can put the best possible 140-or-higher treadwear tires on the car. We’ll align the car aggressively with plenty of toe-out in the rear wheels to aid rotation.
All of the above brings us close to winning. The rest has to be done at the track.
We’ll run the car for a few days at Seca and test alignment settings while preparing to drive as close to a perfect lap as possible. On the day of the event, we will load a Traqmate with our best lap and set it to “qualifying mode” to provide continuous real-time comparison with that lap. We will insist that Lutz drives first, which lets us know how hard we’ll have to run compared to our ideal lap. If he’s slow, we can use caution. If he’s fast . . . well, at that point it will be time for me to earn the Raikkonnen-esque salary Mr. Farago pays me.
Anything can happen once the flag waves, but I will say this: a bet on TTAC to win the “CTS-V Challenge” is a better one than the American taxpayer is making on GM.
There’s another dynamic in play: pressure on Lutz to perform.
If Siler loses this race, it’s no biggie for Jalopnik. They’ll have harvested the publicity they need to pay the bills.
If GM loses, it will be yet another story of GM not being good enough. The international press will eat it up. GM’s downside is enormous.
On top of that, Lutz himself will be under the gun.
He’s a 77-year-old man who made his reputation as Mr. Macho. He’s got a top job at GM, despite running the company into the ground. Yes, he has a Nixonian ability to deny his failures, but Maximum Bob knows there are hundreds of people pulling for him to lose, to finally face his comeuppance.
Hubris isn’t just a Greek plot device.
And Jack brings up a good point: cheating.
Lest we forget, back when GM was [first] caught with its hybrid pants down, it FAKED a hybrid prototype. It put a plastic “Hybrid” cover over a gas engine and tried to pass it off to journalists as gas – electric. (Not to mention our article on GM prepping ringers for executive evaluation.)
Jalopnik would be well advised to follow Jack’s advice and force GM to pick a CTS-V from stock. AND THEN INSPECT IT.
In other news of the world, TTAC’s Farago doesn’t want to buy C/D inspired floor mats for his Merc, but Baruth is willing to bring C/Ds favorite car, a BMW, to whip up on poor Bob Lutz. If I were Lutz, I’d be making sure my CTS-V has a new set of Weathertechs should he accept the TTAC challange. He’ll need all the help he can get. :-)
I understand the discussion here, but how about a competition with identical machines? Remember the IROC series (great idea, bad for toilet bowl—non road course—racing).
If identical machines are out, then you need some way to diminish horsepower in the equation; horsepower isn’t driver skill. Do this with a tight autocross course, or a track/road unexpected bad pavement, where in long sweepers, the less communicative car is in the weeds, and the opposite recovers and continues.
And then there’s the beat the shit out of it because I’m rich, and it’s not my car factor to consider.
I would take the inside line into Turn Two, abandon all pretense of making a clean pass, track out to the exit curb while matching Lutz’s speed on the brakes, and run the old man into the dirt at eighty miles per hour.
I think Jack’s been spending time dreaming Group B. BMW, eh? …does VW still make the Audi Sport Quattro?
Oh and another thing, just before you start the race…
Just say to Lutz: “You didn’t become CEO at any automaker you worked at, you ended up as the CEO at a irrelevant, failing, car battery maker(Exide), before the desperate and failing General Motors grabbed at straws. You’re a straw, Bob, nothing more. At GM, you ushered it to bankruptcy. Ha-ha!!”
From nearly every report on this: Challengers would be allowed to drive any unmodified production sedan in a bid to challenge GM’s claim that the CTS-V is the fastest production sedan in the world.
For this challenge, you can’t modify your car. But watch out for GM messing with their car. Them be shifty folk.
By all means GM can’t be trusted to bring a stocker to the race. But then again, looks like Jack couldn’t be trusted with “his” M5 either. But, hey, that’s racing.
While I really dig the CTS-V, I would love to see Maximum Bob get his clock cleaned
Jack – nice post, but you are being rather too polite.
In reality, stick Jack in the Merc, the BMW, the Audi or the Jaguar XFR and the result will be the same. A win for Jack.
Having witnessed that boy’s driving skills, there is no match for raw talent and notwithstanding the fact that Lutz is no idiot behind the wheel, he is also no racer, and Jack would smack him around based on that fact alone.
Pity it will not happen as I would pay good money to be there.
I think you mean weight-to-power ratio.
So let me get this straight…Lutz gets a randomly selected CTS-V off the lot, but you get to “prepare” the M5 with crash bolts, adjust the toe angle, swap out the tires, and spend several days at Laguna fine tuning? How’s that fair?
A race win is all about the “unfair advantage”… stock car, stock tires… still doesn’t preclude chip-tuning or the “rollcage” option… or even gutting the cats…
As a last resort, the floormats can go… and you can drive with the windows rolled down to lower your center of gravity…
The problem with this challenge and the 60 day return is that they don’t address one of my major concerns about a having a GM car. I want to know what kind of car I’m going to have after a few years. I’m sure it’s going to be great for 60 days or the time it will take to run a race course. That’s not going to convince me. Every crap Detroit branded car I’ve ever owned was great when it was new. Do it with used vehicles taken off of a lot somewhere.
BTW, when the inevitable fuel economy challenge comes along, require vehicles that are actually for sale. No vaporware vehicles allowed.
Better yet–after the “challenge”, set up service appointments for both vehicles as privately-owned cars for necessary maintenance and report back on the experiences.
Long term, I’d wait for resale value.
@Detroit-X
The point is the cars, not the drivers.
Hire The Stig.
I thought that GM was killing off their performance V division. If that’s the case, what is the point of this?
“I thought that GM was killing off their performance V division. If that’s the case, what is the point of this?”
To go out on a high note. Sorry to say, I think it will be a very long time before we will see a Cadillac in excess of 500 hp again. This way, they will go down with style. And, in a couple of years, when somebody else makes something that would beat it, they can rest assure in the knowledge that they are unbeatable, as they will be a non-contender by then. And be able to blame the corporate politcs or Obama or whatever haven’t been done a million times before. “If only, but…” This is the last chance, for GM, for Cadillac, for Lutz, to prove that they are meant for something bigger.
Let’s face it, there are two ways to do this, one is a scientific experiment, the other is a publicity stunt.
Do it like an experiment and you have to follow Consumers Reports rules: buy the cars from dealers, do empirical tests and have the same, experienced, driver(s) run the cars on the track to get comparative times. I’m pretty sure the results would be as Baruth described based on power to weight. Just another boring comparo.
Or, do it as a publicity stunt and it’s win win for all parties. Jalopnik gets their site promoted, Wes Siler’s brand as a car writer gets burnished, Lutz burnishes his own reputation as a man’s man, and Caddy gets to show that their in-house hot rod is the fastest production sedan sold in America.
Farago is the branding maven. Once upon a time, when Sloan’s “car for every price and purpose” ruled GM, Cadillac was a performance car. Before the Corvette and the small block Chevy V8, Cadillacs raced in the Panamerican races in Mexico. Luxury cars were also fast in the early 1950s. The cops were after them hot rod Lincolns, and the original Hemi first went into the biggest Chryslers.
I think that the V series for Caddy is an important aspect to restoring the luster to the Cadillac brand. As a spur of the moment during a conference call decision, I think that Lutz racing the CTS-V against a Benz competing in the same market segment is brilliant. Lutz already knows he has the fastest sedan on the market. Unless he puts into a wall or off the track he should win.
highrpm :
September 13th, 2009 at 11:05 am
I thought that GM was killing off their performance V division. If that’s the case, what is the point of this?
Lutz still wants to pull his pants down and scream: “Mine is bigger and wider than yours”!
It’s all about testosterone.
@ Detroit-Iron :
The point is the cars, not the drivers.
In that vein, I’d use a Cobalt SS. Definitely. The (other point) to be made would be ‘paying triple doesn’t get you much in on-track results.’
Why dignify this senile clown, that lives off the TAXPAYER BILLIONS, he and his BANKRUOT GM, by accepting his SILLY challenge?
MAke a profit, clowns! PAY YOUR DEBTS! Produce a superior vehiucle that can sell 1,000,000 Copies a year and make us, who subsidize you, some PROFIT, b-tch! And spare us the clown act!
Great post Jack! I would prefer a true stock vehicle to stock vehicle race where everyone has to drive a car as delivered from a dealer lot. The premise of this race is that the Cadillac CTS-V can run with the big dogs. It’s not your grandfather’s Cadillac. On paper it appears to be able to beat performance variants of top luxury brands BMW and Mercedes. The unanswered question is: Do the Cadillac CTS-V specifications translate into “Fastest Production Sedan in the World” track times or did GM bean counters neuter the CTS-V in some way which BMW or Mercedes would never do?
Either have the Stig drive both cars in the wet, or have Judge Lieberman do the BS inspection. Otherwise, forget the whole thing.
The problem I see (from a non technical pov) with using a BMW M5 is that Maximum Bob could live with losing to a BMW. You need to humiliate!
With that in mind I wonder if you think that you could take Bob in a Mitsubishi Evo VIII FQ400? The same car Jeremy Clarkson used to run a Lamborghini Murcielago off the top gear test track.
On paper you would be giving up 156 HP. BUT the evo VIII FQ400 weighs in at 3186 LB giving it a .125 HP/LB. The weight also pays dividends in handling and breaking, the EVO bests the CTS-V by 3 feet when measuring 60-0 performance.
I think if you beat him in what Bob Lutz would no doubt refer to as a “Jap Car” he would probably break down in tears. And who could ask for anything else?
(Is the challenge only 4 door cars currently sold in the US?)
If GM turns this into a web and/or TV video spot then, win or lose, it turns into a relatively cheap commercial(as Lutz told Jalop, they can just brag about the price difference instead). If they leave Jalop to make all the hay, then it was just a pissing contest with very limited marketing reach. I find it hard to believe that the car buying public will see this in a negative light (if they see it at all), so no, I don’t think GM is wasting money here either way.
Jalopnik stands to gain the most from this actually. As far as internet buzz goes, they could generate this level of hits in another way, and so it’s not that big a deal. If GM runs an ad campaign off this event though (at which point they were merely shooting a very cheap commercial), Jalopnik could, by association, be exposed to a much larger audience. Good for them, but it does give the peanut gallery reason to question their choice of a car that simply won’t win.
Someone suggested the turbo Panamera in the other thread, that sounds like it might actually do the trick…and makes me feel like an idiot for not thinking of it straight away.
Thinking about it now. Yeah, I’d probably pay good money to watch Jack put Maximum Bob off in a turn. Even more so to watch his explanation of it on video. I’m sure it would be like clubbing a baby seal but I’d enjoy it just the same.
No one is going to run stock. If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying – especially on race day.
Bah, sedan shmedan.
I want to see ZR1 vs Viper ACR vs Shelby GT500. Stop fooling around.
@ RF
Fantasy? Sorry, maybe I missed it, was there a glove-slap competition proposed somewhere? What is the context of this “article”?
I want to see ZR1 vs Viper ACR vs Shelby GT500.
Yeah! And then I wanna’ see a tractor pull and some monster trucks!
Yee-haaa ….
I actually think Wes might be the one who gets hit harder by the pressure. I think challenging Lutz in person, along with a vehicle he knows is superior, might cause him to flub…
I would love for the race to be with an EVO, because it would take away any bragging rights for Lutz, win or lose.
how i’d beat maximum bob?
take an M3 sedan and hope, if they both have to be stock its his only chance, the cts-v is without doubt a world class car, one of America’s few.
With the usual caveats about lap times (generally too much variation in weather, cars and drivers to make non-parallel times next to impossible to compare) these times suggest the M3 has a chance.
at laguna seca:
CTS-V – 1.43.9
M3 coupe – 1.42.9
tsukuba
M3 sedan – 1.06.2
M3 coupe – 1.05.8
Hockenheim
M3 sedan – 1.15.2
M3 coupe – 1.14.3
you can get the sedan with a paddle shift dual clutch gearbox, that’s be worth a tenth or two.
http://www.fastestlaps.com for all the times.
I agree with the Evo FQ400 idea wholeheartedly.
On Top Gear, (forget which episode in s10 or 11) Clarkson said, ~”I know the entry speed for this particular corner in a Ferrari or a Lamborghini is about 65. In the Evo, I’ve just gone in at 100.”
Perhaps the AWD would even up some of the V’s hp advantage, and the Evo does have the similar type of “Magic Drivetrain” to the GT-R.
If only there were a way to put either Jack or The Stig in the shittiest car possible that we know he could beat Bob in, perhaps it would be humiliating enough to shut the guy up for 5 seconds.
-Either that, or you go orthogonal, get some fantastic insurance and drive the biggest GM POS around the track, vividly displaying every problem that GM cars typically have, in high-buffoonery Top Gear Skit style and crash into Bob’s car on the Finish Line at maximum survivable speed.
Maybe something like that would literally drive home the point about GM’s real issues and not some jackass pissing contest.
.
Or how about a Frat-style beatdown? Put Jack or Stig in the Evo for a “Loser gets their head shaved” race, which Bob will of course, lose.
Why not get an RS6 and LOL all the way to the finish line?
So what if the CTS-V is the fastest production sedan in the world? How many will be sold?
What GM needs is something to compete with CamCord and CivRolla.
highrpm : I thought that GM was killing off their performance V division. If that’s the case, what is the point of this?
I was kinda into this challenge for the fun of it all until I read this post then my enthusiasm evaporated. Essentially GM has made a short run of killer specials. That’s great but sustained performance over the years is what success is about. So like the XLR and the SSR you have short run, poor selling specials then you move onto the next big thing.
How about another wrinkle:
You get a tenth handicap for every $1k difference in MSRP!
The M5 would be out, but the Evo is looking better!
As Jack points out, Laguna Seca is basically a point-and-shoot track which is biased to horsepower. What if the match were held at Sears Point, where handling and braking are the coin of the realm? The majority of the Infineon track requires real balance in addition to horsepower to make a car go fast. Wonder how Lutz would do there in the CTS-V?
I thought about this car (V10 M5) when this matter was released last week. Didn’t post anything, couldn’t find in my memory a car that matched the HP numbers (I figured ZR-1 HP, not 556).
This would be great is done stock by stock. You go to 2 random dealers and pick a random CTS-V and M5. Then race.
And 2 Baruth-level drivers (or even better) behind the wheel.
In fact, I think the people at SSL (hint Baruth) could do a very cool article about this race. Instrumented and all.
Even if the CTS-V loses (which I doubt in the conditions I stated above), it will prove it’s a hell of a car, capable of holding its own/giving a run for its money on the Germans.
Question to the author:
Why not use a RS6 or Bentley.
As many have said, this is totally worthless if it’s not done on bone-stock, straight from the dealers lot vehicles.
In fact, an independent third party should procure both cars and deliver them to the track fully fueled. The tires are inflated to the levels stamped on the door jamb. No tweaking whatsoever.
To make it sweeter, OEM’s should be putting up their cars and it should be a claiming race. The winner gets to KEEP the losers car to display in front of their corporate HQ!
A brief note on the Evo “FQ” series: They are created by the United Kingdom’s independent Mitsubishi dealer. It’s basically a high-performance version of Subaru’s “port option” system. The cars arrive stock in the UK and are modified to FQ spec.
With 400 *wheel* hp, the full Japanese-market system of center diffs and whatnot, and some kind of guarantee that the fragile SST transmission wouldn’t pack up and leave in the middle of the lap, I’d feel pretty good about beating a CTS-V in a Mitsu Evo. We’d still be slower up the Rahal Straight but I can live with that.
@Stingray: Neither the RS6 nor the Flying Spur “Speed” are quite as fast in a straight line, and they also just don’t turn very well.
IMHO, a C63 AMG is not even in the same class as the CTS-V. A E63 AMG would be a better place to start. Perhaps better yet would be a Jaguar XFR, as this video aptly demonstrates: CTS-V vs. XFR Drag
Another point, how many laps is the race going to be?
If it’s a long distance endurance race that requires refueling during the race, a lighter and more efficient car may actually win.
FQ-400 Mitsubishi Evolution X= same as “V” option for the Caddie, “M” option for Bmw and “AMG” option for the Mercs … it’s still a 36k – 3 year Mitsubishi warranty backed vehicle that would barely lose th a Nissan GT-R.
Hopefully, the Top Gear producers are bundling The Hamster, Clarkson and Captain Slow into a sea container of CTS beating sedans.
Entertaining 2009 FQ vs GTR UK test on YouTube: http://www.google.com/m/url?cd=4&client=safari&ct=res&ei=ocqwSuDBM8q3twff9MbUAw&hl=en&oe=UTF-8&oi=video_result&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DumG7rGqEJCQ&resnum=4&sa=X&usg=AFQjCNET7fZuPKMtn5LcJbgd48kGFmx3VQ