So, Roger Penske is going to buy Saturn from GM. “Is going to” being the operative words. With the US automotive market sinking to record lows, musical chairing towards a long-overdue “contraction,” one wonder if Mr. Penske is playing the “waiting is winning” game. The New York Times article on Penske’s Saturn plans doesn’t pierce the veil surrounding the devilish details. But we re-learn the fact that Saturn is working towards that glorious day when it no longer sells badge-engineered Opels. “’We’re going to have GM to start with in this business, and then we’re going to move on to another manufacturer in the future,’ he said in his call with analysts.” Which raises the obvious question: whom? “Speculation in the industry has centered on the French carmaker Renault, which has ties to both Nissan in Japan and Samsung in South Korea, and several Chinese auto companies as possible partners for Mr. Penske in the venture. But would Saturn loyalists consider a Chinese-made car a Saturn?” Renault, no. But it’s still an excellent question. The answering of which depends upon The Big One: what IS a Saturn?
Where Saturn fits into that [American automotive] landscape is anyone’s guess. Other, newer brands like Hyundai are capturing buyers who once gravitated to Saturn, and G.M. itself is pushing hard to lure Saturn owners into its Chevrolet showrooms. The novelty of the Saturn sales experience may have worn thin, and there’s little to distinguish the products from models in other G.M. dealerships.
Not quite right. Saturn’s sales and service experience didn’t wear thin as much as GM forgot to nurture it, while its competition narrowed the customer satisfaction gap. Point taken though: is the Saturn brand dead, and if it’s not, does Penske have the money (i.e., time) products and people to resurrect it? Enough with the questions, how about some answers? Damn, that was another question.
The Times, rightly, highlights ten-minute GM Board Member Jerry York’s admonition to dump Saturn. Better yet, the Gray lady return to Mr. York for a prognosis. You might want to sit down, Mr. Penske.
Mr. York, the former G.M. director, says he pushed the automaker to unload Saturn three years ago but the company resisted selling off any brands for fear of losing more market share.
Now Saturn has even less value in an increasingly crowded marketplace, Mr. York notes.
“It’s like you go to the grocery store and you have 40 brands of toothpaste,” he says. “Well, the world doesn’t need 40 brands of toothpaste. I think Saturn falls into the same category. The world doesn’t need it.”
Sad. Saturn coulda been a contenda.
I thought it was PSA cars after GM for Saturn. I don’t see it working well no matter who they get. The manufacturers like PSA or Renault don’t exactly have the greatest reliability track records, and I don’t see them breaking into this market.
The answering of which depends upon The Big One: what IS a Saturn?
Even smart people make mistakes, and sometimes BIG ones.
Penske was very well regarded until he bought Saturn. Still, I believe this will fail miserably. Of course, Mr. Obama, the Corrupt Congress, and the Auto Illiterates in Wash DC may bail him out, if he hires enough union employees with little to do, and even more LOBBYISTS.
” Mr. York, the former G.M. director, says he pushed the automaker to unload Saturn three years ago but the company resisted selling off any brands for fear of losing more market share.”
York was 100% right then and he is 100% right now. WHy didn’t GM do it? Look beyond stupidity and incompetence. Hint: Look at the various Saturn managers (GM VPs). Notice anything in common? It looks like Saturn’s staying in its coma without pulling the plug, for years, was more politics and PC and Affirmative Action than Economics.
” Now Saturn has even less value in an increasingly crowded marketplace, Mr. York notes.”
yes.
” “It’s like you go to the grocery store and you have 40 brands of toothpaste,” he says. “Well, the world doesn’t need 40 brands of toothpaste. I think Saturn falls into the same category. The world doesn’t need it.””
Yes, especially since the Saturn Toothpaste has nothing to offer to any serious auto buyer that is not offered (and more!), at an even lower price, by its competitors.
“Sad. Saturn coulda been a contenda.”?
I don’t see how. This dog was a loser from DAY ONE, when they started selling their primitive, obsolete (by the time they went on sale) tech 4 and 2 door small compacts with plastic sides and poor 80s interiors.
Saturn was invented as a “Honda (or Toyota) Fighter” . The results were laughable, so inferior were the first Saturns vs the Civics they tried to compete with.
“It’s like you go to the grocery store and you have 40 brands of toothpaste…” And not only that, the two leading brands each have 40 different varieties. Just try to find plain white Colgate or Crest toothpaste in that mess. It’s like trying to find a new car with a manual transmission. “I think we’ve got one out behind the shop baking in the sun with the c4c cars…”
Well, there are always exceptions. It’s easy to find a Mustang GT with a stick.
I still believe this company has a certain charm. Maybe if they return to the roots, simple-affordable-friendly, you know. So much money have been used building the brand, i can’t believe it’s worth nothing…As for what they will sell, as long as they pick something different…hey mabey they will go diesel….On a another subject, i think that i am a brand killer…i have a pontiac actually and a saturn before…Hell, i’m afraid of my next purchase (mitsu?suzuki?)
Towards the end of Oldsmobile I remember GM was trying to push Oldsmobile as an American alternative to Japanese cars, and Saturn as an American alternative to European, which I always thought was backwards as the overall refinement and styling of Olds models matched up better to European vehicles while Saturns had more of a second (or third) tier Japanese feel about them – sort of an American Suzuki.
The two things I most associate with Saturn are impossible to dent plastic body panels and a no haggle no hassle laid back sales experience. If Penske wants Saturn to be a success, both need to come back post-haste. I don’t see Saturn being successful purely on the merits of rebadging. Yes, it will have to start out that way, but over time they will have to develop their own unique cars, even if they are based off of someone else’s platform and build in someone else’s factories.
Saturn needs to field a reduced set of models that hit the sweet spots in the market, a compact car, a midsize car, a compact CUV and a midsize CUV, and perhaps a hybrid version of one or two of those. Those cars need to have refined powertrains tuned for efficiency rather than power, clean non-gimmicky and non-derivative styling inside and out with durable yet high quality materials inside and the plastic panels outside. The warranty offered needs to be class leading, outdoing Hyundai by making the 10 year 100,000 warranty a bumper to bumper instead of just a powertrain would be a great idea. Finally, Saturn needs to make sure its retail channel is the most consumer friendly and hassle free place to shop for a car – no bump stickers or questionable charges like undercoating or $200 pin stripes, salespeople on salary not commission, and MSRPs that undercut the competition so that the no-haggle thing can work.
If Saturn can pull all of that off they will do business in droves. Saturns could become the preferred car for those who are looking for uncomplicated economical transportation and who value a hassle-free experience, both with the purchase and the car, above all else.
Saturn is a Chevy for hipsters. At least that’s how I always saw it.
Autosavant :
September 20th, 2009 at 11:54 am
” Mr. York, the former G.M. director, says he pushed the automaker to unload Saturn three years ago but the company resisted selling off any brands for fear of losing more market share.”
York was 100% right then and he is 100% right now. WHy didn’t GM do it? Look beyond stupidity and incompetence.
True, but there other factors at play here: luck and guesswork. In 2006, the handwriting was on the wall for an economic downturn, but I think where GM (and a lot of other companies) went disastrously wrong was to think that it would be a normal downturn. If that was the case, then it made all kinds of sense to keep Saturn – they’d invested heavily in the brand, and there was a slew of new product either in stores or on the way. There was plenty of reason to think Saturn would be OK, given its product mix.
But what they didn’t see coming was the meltdown that happened in 2007 and 2008 – $4 gas, the total collapse of the credit markets, and the total collapse of the housing market. And GM wasn’t alone – I worked in the homebuilding industry at the time, and they didn’t see it coming either.
I think Ford did see this coming, and made the right financial moves to ride it out.
But is there any question that a lot of this kind of long-range planning is really guesswork? GM guessed wrong.
The good news: this might be a chance to see some pretty cool iron from overseas that we wouldn’t otherwise. Yes, some of the rebranded cars will be produced by companies that blew it in the U.S. because of quality, but then again, that was decades ago, and the quality of all cars has increased dramatically since then.
The bad news: Penske will have no control over design or content.
I think the concept here will be a boutique brand for mid-priced cars. Not bad on paper. The key will be the product.
NulloModo :
September 20th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Saturn needs to field a reduced set of models that hit the sweet spots in the market, a compact car, a midsize car, a compact CUV and a midsize CUV, and perhaps a hybrid version of one or two of those.
Well, yeah, but that’s what they have now (or had until the Astra was discontinued).
I believe Penske saw value in the name, and is looking for a quick turn. Asian perhaps.
Anyone have the facts as to the logistics of this deal? Is Penske going to be the middle man between GM and the consumer, paying GM to build rebadged GM cars?
It always seemed to me that Saturn was kind of an american Volvo or Subaru. These were plain, practical cars bought by practical people. No haggle buying, dent and rust-free plastic body panels, and an annual owners picnic. Saturn wasn’t about the car so much as about the experience.
If ever there was a brand that could exist by nurtuing its sales channel and selling subcontracted vehicles of reasonable quality, it is Saturn. This is particularly true if Penske could source some utilitarian cars with plastic body panels. So long as the car has a good warranty and the dealer repair experience is handled with a focus on top notch customer service, there will be a market.
In my opinion, such a Saturn product would have more appeal than today’s Chevrolet.
The world is in the midst of a glut of car production overcapacity which, thanks to government interference, has not been reduced by the recession. Thus I would assume that Penske shouldn’t have too many problems finding automakers that are willing to dump excess inventory on the US market. Particularly those which do not sell their cars here.
The question of brand survival will most likely not hinge on a supply of cars but on how well they manage with their dealer experience and service.
Loser :
September 20th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Anyone have the facts as to the logistics of this deal? Is Penske going to be the middle man between GM and the consumer, paying GM to build rebadged GM cars?
As I understand it:
Initially, they will do this to have product in teh showrooms, but as time goes on, the plan to phase out the GM-sourced product, and import and sell rebadged models from other manufacturers.
Nothing has worked for Saturn.
Iniutially, they made inferior, low-tech, plasticky subcompacts that were far inferior to the Civics of their time.
Then they rebadged Opels, but even Lutz himself admitted that the Opel/Saturn Astra was way overpriced for the US market. What can penske do about that? Not much, other than not selling the Astra any more.
Even the Aura, which is a clone of the New Malibu with the cute styling and the good interior, did not sell well. Even that “Great hope” Malibu ended up not selling even 1/3 or 1/4 as many as the Accord or the Camry sell every year.
So I fail to see what Penske will do with this dog nobody asked for in the first place (But the infamous Roger Smith shoved down GM buyer’s throats at the expense of Oldsmobile which had to be killed later, and whose logo was disturbingly similar)
Anybody who watched Penske’s actions as he took over and ran Detroit Diesel, will know that the man is a committed hard-worker and no quick-flip artist … he even moved back to Detroit so he could be at Diesel on a daily basis.
One thing I do find interesting is that Saturn is little more than a brand and distribution channel, it has not been a stand-alone product development or manufacturing organization for years …
It will be interesting to see how this plays out, because it seems the New Saturn will be the extreme version of what Cerberus was tending toward with Chrysler (in the buy v. make matrix, cars were headed toward the former and trucks were likely to stay with the latter.)
When Honda (Acura) unwisely killed the “Legend” brand, after decades of excellent, successful products, in favor of its meaningless and idiotic alphanumeric “RL”, it was estimated that it lost $1,000,000,000.00 of value, recognition etc in the Legend name.
Does anybody believe that the name “Saturn” has anything close to the above? I am not even sure if it has a positive value. FOr me, it sure does not, while COrvette, Caddilac, and even Chevy and Ford and Lincoln, and of course Merc, BMW, Porsche and even Audi, still have some or siginficant positive value to me.
Where does the brand “Saturn” have value? Easy. It has value to those people who will never show their faces on this board; have no idea what a four-valve, dual overhead cam engine, is; and who are the kind of crowd that values the classic Saturn dealership experience.
Now, assuming that the classic Saturn dealership rules are still in force – it’s been about six years since I last walked into a Saturn dealer, and while I never bought a car, they were the only dealers where I actually felt I was treated straight – bringing in a decently-designed product at a very viable price will bring it back. Add in the “you are special” attitude towards the brand owners (even those who have bought their cars at the local used car lot), and you’ve got a potential winner.
There are ways to make a car owner feel special, even if he doesn’t drive some awesome performance car with sub-6 second 0-60 times, and better than .9g on the skidpad. Saturn had it, even if the car was completely pedestrian. Now, can they bring it back?
Never saw it coming? Please. Nobody wants to leave the party while the booze is still flowing. Once the attitude that it is “never going to end” appears is exactly when you know when the collapse is near.
All bubbles burst and the housing industry is consistently at the forefront of speculative bubbles: in Chicago in the 1800s, Florida in the 20s, the rental housing/commercial market of the 70’s the collapse of the early 90s.
How long did anyone think that selling over priced houses to people would couldn’t afford them via liars loans and ARMs and carrying balloon payments could continue ? How long could the “flipping” of real estate continue to drive up prices ? How long could refinancing to buy more crap people couldn’t afford go on before it caught up with everyone. Never saw it coming ? That’s the excuse GM has been using and many others as well, once they got caught out when the game was called.
I have two Saturns. And while I like the cars, there never should have been a separate division for Saturn.
GM could have done what they attempted with Saturn via NUMMI, GEO or Opel itself and possibly made a profit.
If Penske can find a product that gives honest value,performance, a little style and a non antagonistic sales and service experience he could do just fine rebuilding the brand into something desireable.
And he might start over with just one good product that proves itself over time, no “full line” shit just to have “something to sell in the segment” the way GM operated for so many years.
I would definitely consider a Non GM Saturn of any breed before I would buy another GM anything.
The only Saturn owners I know who are happy are people who hate cars, or who at best do not know or care anything about them. While none of us who read TTAC fall into those categories, I accept that millions of potential buyers feel that way.
What my few happy Saturn-owning friends like is the retail experience. (Or they used to, before Saturn “retailers” became just so many car dealers.) And who among us wouldn’t like a better auto purchase and ownership experience?
So, I ask you, instead of trying to find other third-rate manufacturers to fill the Saturn pipeline, to replace the third-rate manufacturer filling it now, why don’t Roger (and his silent partner David Fischer of the Suburban dealership group) just clean up all their other miserable stores?
“Syke :
September 20th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Where does the brand “Saturn” have value? Easy. It has value to those people who will never show their faces on this board; have no idea what a four-valve, dual overhead cam engine, is; and who are the kind of crowd that values the classic Saturn dealership experience.”
While there is some truth in the above, I can say that there are 100,000s of people, many more than the above, who also do not have a clue about these technical terms, who buy Corollas and even Value-leader Hyundai Elantras, and even sophisticated Civics and Fits every year. WHy would they bother to look at Saturn, just for the pleasant 20 mins at the dealership, when they will have a lifetime of poor driving experience compared to the best sellers?
What Saturn lacks, which hurts, is not the Corvette-like 0-60 and top speeds, but the refinement necessary for cars of its class, and the reliability of the top sellers Corolla, Civic Accord and Camry, with which it tried, and failed, to compete.
Saturn is really an empty shell. I will be very surprised if Penske is able to do anything with this dog.
PS the one thing I liked about the Saturn experience was the no-haggle pricing.
I hate it when one goes to buy a new, high tech car, and has to haggle like some barefoot illiterate in a Middle Eastern Bazaar!
But Saturn later abandoned this good practice.
Note that most serious nations also have no-haggle pricing for all car models sold.
I bet Penske will import some CHinese-made poor-fitting compacts and put some “Saturn” lipstick on their hoods.
aybe consumers will pay more for it if he calls it a Saturn than if he calls it “DongFeng” or “Geely” or any one of their other real names.
Penske is a very successful businessman. There has to be more to the deal than what has been published. If GM or Penske have said how much he is paying for Saturn, exactly what he is getting for his money, and where the money is coming from I have not seen it. It’s hard to evaluate a deal with so few facts.
I can’t imagine many rushing to buy soon to be orphaned Opel-Saturns or GM-Saturns even at heavy discounts. Parts will be very difficult to source for the former and resale values will be negligible. Nor do I foresee an early lineup to buy Renault-Saturns, Samsung-Saturns, People’s Revolutionary Saturns, or whatever.
I doubt it is Renault. Could be Chinese, although probably buyers would want colors other than Red.
Renault can sell all it wants through Nissan. Who could it be? Which large producers are not in North America or are very weak? I’ll rank ’em as I see ’em:
Opel/GAZ
Suzuki
Mitsubishi
FAW
Geely.
SAIC/Volvo
PSA Citroen/DongFeng in partnership.
Mahindra
Tata
If Ford were smart, it would cut a deal with Penske to sell rebadged overseas Ford cars through Saturn. But I doubt that will happen because dealers would go nuts.
The ongoing class war will push an increasing percentage of the population into an economic morass.
As a growing number of citizens creep closer to a 2nd-world life-style the firm that can cater to that ever-growing class MAY be the winner in the long-term.
The eventual oligarchy within the USA, even when one factors in the number of lackeys that will serve their masters, the bureaucrats and their flunkies who will be the buffer between the masses and their masters, will likely not be large enough to create enough new vehicle demand to result in enough used cars to “trickle down” to the unwashed masses filling the future barrios and tenements.
Thus, the need for the most basic of transportation.
Well, that is IF the Masters allow the enormous numbers of underlings to possess vehicles other than bicycles and push carts.
Perhaps the future money lies with those selling basic stripped-down mass transit vehicles.
Autosavant :
September 20th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Nothing has worked for Saturn.
Iniutially, they made inferior, low-tech, plasticky subcompacts that were far inferior to the Civics of their time.
Very true…and the Ion was an epic failure, leaving them poorly positioned. By the time they did get good cars on the market (which they did), the whole brand was basically in reboot mode. Given time, I think they could have repositioned themselves and made a comback, but as it is, the recession hit, and GM went bankrupt, and that was that.
A shame…they have some very decent product out there. They didn’t get much of a chance to re-establish themselves.
I had a Saturn L200 as a rental car for a few days while my car at the time was in the shop. I remember it being fairly lackluster, a bit noisy, and with possibly the worst quality cloth for the interior I have ever seen in a car.
The Ion was decent other than an abundance of cheap plastic inside and the center mounted gauges. The exterior styling was actually pretty nice, and the ability to customize the car via interchangeable colored exterior inserts was ahead of its time.
Hey, all I know is inferior, low-tech, plasticky or not, I have a half dozen friends who bought Saturn SLs in the 1990’s. All them put upwards of 200K on the clock before trading them in for new SLs. No jive.
I heard no complaints about reliability from any of them. And all of my Saturn-owning friends were sorely disappointed when A) Saturn moved away from plastic body panels and B) it looked like Saturn might bite the bullet.
None of my Saturn-owning friends are stupid. But they are not auto fans. And I’m not sure they could readily detect the higher level of sophistication offered by, say, a Honda. And frankly I am not convinced that the vast majority of Honda and Toyota buyers in this country could tell the difference either.
What these buyers CAN tell you about is if a given car is reliable or not – if it costs them time and money or not – and whether they were pleased with the purchase and service experience.
What’s more… I drove a few of these SLs and I’m not sure I would regard the driving experience as inferior to a Toyota Corolla of the same period. If anything, the Saturns seemed a bit more taught and sporty than a Corolla.
But whether I – or any of us on these boards – would buy a future Saturn or not isn’t the point. The point is, if Saturn returns to its roots, there are plenty of people who would. And reduced expectations as a result of the economic and financial crises can only help.
Well said obbop.
@obbop:
As a growing number of citizens creep closer to a 2nd-world life-style
Mmm…no. You seem not to understand the term “2nd-world” correctly; this will get you up to speed.
“Daniel J. Stern :
September 20th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
@obbop:
“As a growing number of citizens creep closer to a 2nd-world life-style”
“Mmm…no. You seem not to understand the term “2nd-world” correctly; this will get you up to speed.”
“Several authors also consider a new definition for “Second World”, which would consist of that would be country’s emerging economy as the group such as the group BRIC (Brazil, Russia, China and India), Argentina and Mexico, because they exhibited characteristics of the first world, but also of the third world.”
Thanks for the link. Exactly as I intended when using the term “2nd-world” and explained with the blurb above from the provided link.
Here’s how this thing can work.
Marry Saturn with GREEN.
Saturn’s sole value is in its positive, respectful dealer experience. It has survived the test of time and with effort, can be restored to be far better than anyone else’s.
Penske has the dealer experience, so this can happen. Not will happen, but can.
Now, take that Saturn Experience and pair it with a head-to-toe green image and matching cars. Its a perfect fit since the clients are an overlapping demographic. They will both pay more for a better experience or ownership feeling. Driving pleasure is way down on the list of priorities.
Whether they carry Chinese BYD, or any current product, if they cover every inch of every dealership, ad, flyer and internet ad with recyclable content, gas milage, a permanent clunkers program, 3year mainteance package, 5 year warranty and carbon offsets, this thing has a shot.
Otherwise, they can’t build enough value to avoid fail. my 2cents.
Steve Biro :
September 20th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Hey, all I know is inferior, low-tech, plasticky or not, I have a half dozen friends who bought Saturn SLs in the 1990’s. All them put upwards of 200K on the clock before trading them in for new SLs. No jive.
I heard no complaints about reliability from any of them. And all of my Saturn-owning friends were sorely disappointed when A) Saturn moved away from plastic body panels and B) it looked like Saturn might bite the bullet.
I think the plastic panels WERE part of what did Saturn in. Yes, they were durable, but the problem is that in order to accomodate them expanding and contracting as the weather changed, the body panel gaps had to be massive. This gave the cars a really cheap look, as opposed to their competitors, which all featured tight-looking bodies.
The original-gen Saturns weren’t bad cars at all in the early 1990’s. The problem is that as the market moved to more sophisticated, refined and higher-performing compacts, GM restyled the line instead of giving it a new platform. They were selling the same basic platform in 2002 as they were in 1990. By then, Saturns really WERE a lot worse than the competition.
This is the same mistake they made with the Cavalier.
Actually there is a brand with a practically perfect portfolio and no US presence – it’s called Skoda.
Their pricing is much more realistic than VWs, their reliability is better, plus their products have more interior space than the equivalent VWs, all qualities that would work in the US. While they are generally a notch or two down on sportiness, they tend to have better ride characteristics as a result of the worse roads both in their homeland as well as in their big markets, compared to VWs Germany. A Skoda Superb could very well work as an Accord / Camry competitor, the Octavia could do it a class / size lower, plus they have plenty of other interesting products, including small MPVs (Roomster) and CUVs (Yeti), which would give Saturn a competitive product range covering a fair fraction of the target market from day one.
In terms of engines the 1.8 turbo and 2.0 turbo petrol fours, the 3.6l V6 and the 2.0l TDI (170hp variety) could all work fairly well and all of them are more or less US certified already and provide sufficient torque characteristics to satisfy US consumers.
The internal competition might even push VW of NA to try a bit harder ;)
Mike: “..A shame…they have some very decent product out there. They didn’t get much of a chance to re-establish themselves.”
All they have today are rebadged opels. Saturn never designed and built a decent model itself, in any category.
The Opels can still be sold as Buicks or even Chevys, Aveos already are.
But the other problem with Saturn Opels like the Astra was that they were way overpriced for the US market (Lutz admitted that) and had only a tiny Ad budget, so few people outside this forum know what the hell an Astra is.
I am with those who argue that the value of Saturn lies in its image and not in its vehicles.
I would submit that the value of that image can be shown in the fact that Saturn has survived, despite all the things that GM has done to destroy it.
I know at least 3 women who have purchased Saturns after getting divorced. They want that “won’t get cheated” confidence that the brand pushed so hard for a long time. As has been stated (and better) by several other posters, a lot of people just want a decent not-too-expensive car that isn’t a hassle. That’s the niche for Saturn.
I like the ‘Skoda’ et al concept. Saturns don’t have to be great cars… just good cars with a good sales experience, a good service experience, and a great warranty. I don’t think that he can afford the risk of offering a Chinese car yet. The press would rip it to shreds over any problems. So if not Skoda, I’d be selling Nissans (not Renaults, thank you!)with plastic panels and a better warranty – for a little more than the Nissans.
As far as what Mr. Penske will do – I would also submit that I think Penske is serious about running Saturn as a business rather than flipping it to the Chinese. He’s been a big 3 dealer for a long time, and he’s tried to enter as an independent player before, if I recall correctly – wasn’t he selling Smart cars? I believe I also recall Penske branded service centers linked to K Mart.
I have to note that neither the Smart nor the Penske-KMart Service Centers have been particularly good choices but I think that they’ve been learning experiences for a very smart man.
“FreedMike :
September 21st, 2009 at 2:13 am
I think the plastic panels WERE part of what did Saturn in. Yes, they were durable, but the problem is that in order to accomodate them expanding and contracting as the weather changed, the body panel gaps had to be massive. This gave the cars a really cheap look, as opposed to their competitors, which all featured tight-looking bodies.”
You’re right, of course. Most auto enthusiasts would see it the same way. And yet, my Saturn-owning friends loved those plastic panels and hated to seem them go. I don’t know that they even noticed those panel gaps. I suspect this points to the difference between people who actually bought Saturns and others, like us.
“The original-gen Saturns weren’t bad cars at all in the early 1990’s. The problem is that as the market moved to more sophisticated, refined and higher-performing compacts, GM restyled the line instead of giving it a new platform. They were selling the same basic platform in 2002 as they were in 1990. By then, Saturns really WERE a lot worse than the competition.”
Again, you’re right. But my Saturn people happily bought Saturns again because the cars didn’t give them problems and they still had that great purchase/service experience. Most didn’t even bother testing comparable Hondas, Toyotas or whatever. Which is EXACTLY the kind of brand loyalty that Honda and Toyota enjoy – and every other U.S. automaker would kill to get.
So GM actually got away – to a certain extent – with starving Saturn of new product for a while. It almost didn’t matter that the competition was better – as far as the Saturn faithful were concerned. As Lokkii points out: “Saturns don’t have to be great cars… just good cars with a good sales experience, a good service experience, and a great warranty.”
Alas, when GM moved Saturn away from its original concept, they turned off the faithful while still failing to bring in new buyers. And that was that. But it’s clear the original Saturn concept/business model can work. All Roger Penske has to do is link up with a decent manufacturer, offer a great waranty and make sure the original Saturn sales/service experience lives on.
My original understanding of what Saturn’s identity was supposed to be was: a reliable car that was made in America that was unique and offered a customer service experience unlike any other. The other thing that was probably never on paper but that they promoted anyway was people who were proud of the cars they owned (i.e. picnics and car rallies).
So under the new formula
Made in America? Not likely
Reliable? TBD
Excellent customer service? Quite possible
Unique? Based on quirky Asian design; possibly
Owner pride? Questionable unless this refers to pride of not being part of GM
Why I Am A Five Saturn Owner – and Still Drive Them Today
I love my 2001 SW2. It is a fun car to drive. It gets great gas mileage. It is actually sporty. It sits low to the ground and handles unbelievably well. It has a twin-cam 4 cylinder, a silent and quick automatic, and 15 inch tires. It is invisible – no one takes two glances at it. It looks as good today, as it did new. It is loaded with options. Saturn S, was an excellent car when unveiled in 1991, and my 1999 and 2001 is even better. These are solid, high quality cars that folks like me paid top dollar for. Inexpensive? Not the ones I’ve had. And definately not cheap.
I would buy another in a heartbeat – but Saturn doesn’t make the S series anymore, or anything similar. Screw the supposedly ugly gaps between the fenders – that isn’t important. It is just another part of what makes Saturns different – if you even notice, which 99% don’t.
The Saturn was American-made. That was important. Sure, Japanese cars could be assembled in the US, but that doesn’t make those cars American, anymore than having black slaves pick cotton made Ante-Bellum plantations black-owned businesses. Mexicans don’t consider Ford a Mexican company, so how can anyone use such lame logic similarly? Saturns were American – and now they are not.
S series Saturns are all over town. Since they don’t rust – most of them still look great. Unlike their comptetitors, the S series didn’t update their looks, so a 1996 looks 95% like what a 2002 looks like. I don’t have to wash it. I don’t have to wax it. It doesn’t rust or dent. The paint color is rather forgetable – but the quality of the paint is excellent. This old car doesn’t look old.
The Saturn dealer is excellent. They are great people who are awesome. My little SW2 has a long history of repairs and maintenance in the dealership. This dealer is terrific.
But what Saturns were – was the S series, and the first generation VUE. So, Saturn has been pretty much gone after the last of the plastic exterior – space frame vehicles stopped being produced.
GM put billions into a great car, great factory, and a great dealership network – then ignored it for SUVs and trucks. Saturn wasn’t loved by GM, it was foisted onto them by a man who wasn’t loved by GM. When Smith left – this great little car company had no one to take care of it.
When the SUV market died, and Americans returned to small car roots – Saturn wasn’t there to pick up the market.
Penske can only win us over if he somehow returned us to American cars with dent-resistant panels, sporty ride and handling, and similar dependability. That isn’t going to happen.
Robert Walters is absolutely right. The reason Saturn will succeed is not product, pricing, or the sales experience. It will succeed because of Roger Penske. Roger does not fail. People who have worked in his organizations refer simply to “The Penske Way.” You will do it his way, not just because he is the boss, but because his way is right. It’s almost legendary. He is said to be demanding but, if you meet his expectations, fair.
On the subject of speculation, Roger will not go with just any low-cost manufacturer. He is quality-obsessed. He may be satisfied for a while to focus on entry-level and “second” cars. Suzuki and Mitsubishi could be possible providers, if they can build to his standards at an acceptable price. Mahindra could be a wild card contender, as I understand they build very good products. Whoever builds for them, they will have to do it the Penske way. Remember who builds the Smart car.
Roger wins.
Robert Walters is absolutely right. The reason Saturn will succeed is not product, pricing, or the sales experience. It will succeed because of Roger Penske. Roger does not fail. People who have worked in his organizations refer simply to “The Penske Way.” You will do it his way, not just because he is the boss, but because his way is right. It’s almost legendary. He is said to be demanding but, if you meet his expectations, fair.
On the subject of speculation, Roger will not go with just any low-cost manufacturer. He is quality-obsessed. He may be satisfied for a while to focus on entry-level and “second” cars. Suzuki and Mitsubishi could be possible providers, if they can build to his standards at an acceptable price. Mahindra could be a wild card contender, as I understand they build very good products. Whoever builds for them, they will have to do it the Penske way. Remember who builds the Smart car.
Roger wins.
All he has to do is produce cars that meet these criteria:
1. Driving dynamics and quality feel of german cars;
2. Reliability of japanese cars;
3. Safety of french and norwegian cars;
4. Styling and comfort of american cars;
5. Price point of korean cars;
6. No-dent body panels.
Oh, wait. That’s actually REALLY HARD.
Penske is the man. If anybody can make Saturn work, it’s Penske. Period.
“3. Safety of french and norwegian cars;”
I am sure France makes a lot of cars, but I never heard of French cars having a reputation for safety. The only thing comes to mind is old Citroens, when they are not in the shop, being able to rider on three tires if you the fourth is shot by a would-be assassin.
And… Norwegian Cars? WHAT Norwegian cars? That “THink” golf cart? LOL!
MAybe you meant SWEDISH? As in “Volvo”s?
“4. Styling and comfort of american cars;”
Like the Edsel and its worthy Successor, the Aztec?
or such mass produced wonders as the Chevy Lumina?
Ear me out mr.Penske, strike a deal with toyota for Nummi, get the recently killed Vibe under Saturn…You win on all front; you get an american construct car, reliable, very fuel efficient(1.8 liter), that already have a non-gm follower (go see GenVibe if you doubt), 6 airbags, 5 star crash test, esp standard, onstar fixed, already approved for sale here. Slap a saturn logo on the front wait for the next redesign to put some plastic panel and Boom you get the bitch slap GM twice (killing Saturn, killing Vibe)…how about that eh?