Steve writes:
Hi Sajeev, I own a 2005 VW Passat with V6 that has 92000 miles on the odo. VW says I should replace the timing belt ASAP. I let my last Passat (2001.5 V6) go until 120K and my local dealer’s shop lectured me on the danger of letting it go for so long. How much am I tempting fate by waiting until I get to 120K this time? Is a timing belt change too complicated for a decent independent mechanic to tackle? Your sage advice would be most appreciated.
There are a number of people on the VW forums that are posting that VW issued some kind of revised maintenance schedule for TB’s? I bought mine used (from a VW dealer) so I may not be on the mailing list. As usual, the opinions run the gamut. I will be very interested in the comments on this issue. And, I will check with my mechanic (authorized VW repair shop, non-dealer) on Monday to see what he says.
Sajeev answers:
Let’s rant for a moment: WTF is up with a mainstream sedan running a timing belt in the current millennia? Most (perhaps all) of the Japanese carmakers stepped up to timing chains for long term cost savings, after (the chain lovers) in Detroit did their “100k between tune ups” shtick in the 1990s.
Wait, scratch that: according to Edmunds, your Passat needs a new timing belt at 105,000 miles. So get ready for a big bill, 5k miles after everyone else gets new spark plugs. Fahrvergnügen!
Now, about getting chastised: nobody wants to get stranded by a broken belt. Murphy’s Law says it’ll fail when you’re in the middle of nowhere. Far worse, Google searching says you have an interference engine, so neglecting the belt results in a game of Valve Roulette: which one stays down and gets Piston Slapped?
Yes, you deserved that lecture from the dealer. Now redeem yourself by finding an independent, non-franchise mechanic who uses Internet repair databases and runs a clean shop. Let them change the belt (with a VW-sourced replacement) and save a little cheddar in the process. And do whatever else the owner’s manual suggests too: you only dig into the motor every 105k, so save the labor costs by doing multiple things at one time.
[Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com]
As Sajeev recommends: Change that belt sooner than later. Within the recommended intervals, sooner if it develops cracks or sign of wear. If it breaks, your long out-of-warranty engine may go with it.
I get many requests for cheap timing belts, made in China, which I could sell for a lot of money. But I turn all requests down after consulting with my lawyer and insurance company. The value of a timing belt is in no relation to the damage it can cause. No timing belts from me! This is one of the few times where I recommend the OEM model: If it breaks, VW will have to buy you a new motor.
Fie on your belt!
Fie on your chain!
Give me a good old-fashioned timing GEAR!
I broke one, ONCE. On a OHV Volvo with 300k+
I’m with Bertel — get the proper belt, and get it before your old one breaks and damages the engine. Really, it’s not that expensive when you amortize it over four years or more.
Timing chains are more durable, but are heavier, noisier, more expensive initially and require lubrication, so there are pros and cons to both chains and belts.
Agreed! If you don’t have a “zero clearance” engine you’ll run the risk of detonating the motor when an open valve goes through the crown of a piston upon belt separation. If this is not the case, you’ll be stranded anyway. An independent shop should be reasonable as long as they don’t have to take half of the engine apart to get to the belt.
I’m with Sajeev on currency however, I didn’t think any auto manufacturer in recent time still used a timing belt.
Jesus, just change the damn thing. It’s a nice car. Don’t F it up.
A timing belt is by far the lightest, lowest-inertia way to drive the camshafts, so if you want an engine that revs up fast, it’s part of the solution.
An interference engine is also way better than a non-interference one: you can actually open the valves far enough to make decent power and can get the compression ratio up high enough to not swill down the juice.
Just change it every 100,000 miles. It’s at about the limit of a home mechanic to change and this sort of job is the bread and butter of an independent mechanic. If the timing belt drives the water or oil pump, change that at the same time. It’s a lot cheaper than scattering the engine all over the freeway.
Audi is another manufacturer that uses timing belts. The 1.8T/2.0T in so many A3s, A4s and TTs plus VWs is an interference engine. I have two and between them have had an independent shop replace the belts three times, along with the water pump and tensioners. A good independent should be able to do it for a lot less than the dealer.
I worked on a few Passats. It looked to me that the fastest way to change that timing belt is to remove the core support. Which would mean that you get to uncouple the radiator and trans cooler lines, so those systems get new fluid while you’re doing the belt.
@chaparral, the industry went to timing chains for several reasons. Yes, the belts are slightly lighter but the new-gen quiet chains are light too. The timing gears on chains are much lighter than the gears used for belts and allow for tighter packaging. You don’t have to worry about oil leaking past cam seals in a chain engine. And you don’t have to change them either.
I’m with Chapparal here.
Back in the day they advertised belts over chains and gears. Modern, clean, simple, super easy maintenance. Replace a $40 belt and a roller and maybe a gasket. Took a whole 1.5 hours on my 1989 Jetta.
My valve train gears broke their teeth on a GM iron duke. Seems GM specified plastic to get better noise control and they wore quickly and then the teeth were gone.
I do note VW went to chains for newer engines. As found in A4 in USA.
Beware that on Passat you have to remove front of car, the bumper grill and structure etc to get at the front of motor, unlike Jetta or Golf where it is the side of the motor you are getting at.
Its not in doubt, break the belt and that motor is toast. You should expect to be buying a used motor and dropping it in if belt breaks. I recommend against opening up a 90k motor and tinkering with part replacements and checking bearing play etc etc unless its your weekend project car not your daily driver sitting in a for-profit shop. At that point investing so much you might as well dump thousands more into turbo, computer, suspensions, etc. etc. Better to just avoid the whole mess and do the scheduled maintenance.
To find the actual scheduled maintenance search Google for “VW timing belt settlement” and read actual recent VW documents. Dealers are known for being wrong when asked a simple question.
3 words …. change the belt!! I had experiencce with this only once in my ’74 X 1/9. It too is an interference engine, and the belt decided to let go at about 40,000 miles. The head was not a pretty sight, along with 4 valves and 2 pistons. Proper belt maintenance is cheap insurance.
Now for a funny tale in the same vein. My daughter’s Sunfire just went into the shop to change the water pump — at 148,000 miles. This is the 2.4l engine that requires pulling the timing cover to get to the pump since it is driven by the timing chain …. remember, chain. When she took it in, the mechanic said “You know, since we need to pull the timing cover to get to the pump, we should probably replace the timing belt at the same time.” Daughter’s response: “That will be a real chore for you, since this engine has a chain and not a belt.” Needless to say, the mechanic refrained from further stupid comments.
WTF are interference engines still being made for? Especially by VW. Toyota did away with them in the, what, 1960s???? (Maybe it was the 1970s).
I almost wonder if belts were/are still used by Honda to guarantee belt replacement work at the dealerships. My V6 Accord went in for that service (as well as everything else) and it set me back a grand. Not bad, considering no other work in the eight years of owning the car (besides regualr maintenance).
chuckR: How much did it cost to replace the timing belt in your 2.0T? I have the 2.0FSI engine in my GTI and I’m approaching 50k miles with a vengeance. I believe this service is recommended at 100k on my GTI.
Speaking of belts, I’ll have to do the supercharger belt on my wife’s MINI S in 18k miles. I should probably do it sooner as the car is approaching 5 years old and only 42k miles.
Three cheers for racebeer’s daughter!
I believe Subarus still use belts, I know the Imprezas were using them through 2007. I don’t know about the newest ones, though. However, a belt change on a Subie is a pretty simple affair once the radiator is out of the way (5 minutes to remove). Better than pulling the entire front end off a la VW/Audi.
@ PeteMoran – chapparal answered your question above – interference engines can have higher compression and a smaller size vs. non-inteference engines, while being more fuel efficient.
@ krazykarguy
chapparal answered your question above – interference engines can have higher compression and a smaller size vs. non-inteference engines, while being more fuel efficient.
Toyota (and BMW) seem to do just fine with the superior engineering maxim; parts should not needlessly collide!
I’ll take 0.1% (less even?) decrease in fuel efficiency to ensure my engine doesn’t lunch itself when the belt/chain/pushrod fails.
My newly-acquired 01 Hyundai Elantra has an interference engine (2.0 L), requiring a new timing belt every 60k miles. It now has 138k miles; not knowing its history, I’m way due.
I am generally a fan of timing chains rather than belts for the reasons stated above. But the failure of my friend’s timing gears (plastic) on an ’86 Buick 3.8 gave me pause (80k miles). The shrapnel caused great damage to the lubrication system, even though I think the 3.8 is not an interference engine.
So get that belt changed; you don’t want to smack 30 valves into the pistons!
I’m not sure how the VR-6 is set up but on the four cylinder VW’s one of the motor mounts bolts to the engine through the loop of the timing belt. To replace the belt the engine must be sopported with a hoist so the motor mount can be removed. This makes the job more complicated and runs up the labor costs on your repair bill.
When a VW dealers replace the timing belt, they also replace the tensioner, water pump, thermostat, and auxiliary drive belt. The dealer also charges mucho dinero for his services, so as others have suggested, you would do well to find a qualified and reliable independent shop.
VW recomeneds that their timing belts be replaced at 80,000 miles, but I have heard several reports of these belts lasting over 100,000 miles. My guess (and this is just a guess) is that the belts are designed and made to last around 100K miles, but VW recommends a much lower replacement interval to avoid expensive warranty claims on belts that break prematurely.
Why the “OEM” belt only? What is wrong with buying a reputable aftermarket part like Gates? They may have made the original anyway…Sometimes OEM is not better. Aftermarket suppliers aren’t being cost constrained by the factory looking to save a buck on each part…
It would be nice if changing the timing belt/chain wasn’t such a crushingly expensive job on transverse engines. I think that’s part of the questioner’s concern: this isn’t an easy change and might require several hours labour and removal of the engine.
Personally, if a Passat engine is running well, I don’t think I’d want to risk removing it for fear I’d shake off the pixie dust.
Change the belt before the recommended interval! If it says 105K, do it just before that to be safe. You can buy the complete 2.8 V6 timing belt kit online for about $225. Not sure how long a shop would take to change it, but apparently it takes a first time DIYer about 8 hours. Check here for more info on the procedure: http://phatcat_ed.tripod.com/V6.htm
My 528es have timing belts, the recommended interval is only 60k miles/ 4 yrs. Like most other stuff on this anti-que, its a drive way job using mebbe 100$ worth of new parts if it is water pump time. The first thing we tell the newbs who post about just buying a 528e is to change the belt ASAP. It is an interference engine, but usually it just bends a few valves.
Yeah, chains last longer, but a sloppy chain messes with valve timing and degrades performance. Plenty of chains run on either plastic or aluminum sprockets or rub up against plastic guides.
I can do a TB-ectomy in an afternoon on my cars. YMMV.
chaparral : A timing belt is by far the lightest, lowest-inertia way to drive the camshafts, so if you want an engine that revs up fast, it’s part of the solution.
Which makes sense in a Ferrari, but for an automaker determined to outsell Toyota everywhere in the world?
There’s a reason why many Americans hate repairing affordable German cars as they age, mostly because of component cost and lack of reliability: perceived or otherwise. Switching to a chain fixes both. One small step for man…one giant leap for VW.
“When a VW dealers replace the timing belt, they also replace the tensioner, water pump, thermostat, and auxiliary drive belt.”
Neil Huffman VW in Louisville doesn’t. I realized this when the tensioner locked up 15,000 miles later.
Sajeev answers:
Let’s rant for a moment: WTF is up with a mainstream sedan running a timing belt in the current millennia? Most (perhaps all) of the Japanese carmakers stepped up to timing chains for long term cost savings, after (the chain lovers) in Detroit did their “100k between tune ups” shtick in the 1990s.
….
There’s a reason why many Americans hate repairing affordable German cars as they age, mostly because of component cost and lack of reliability: perceived or otherwise. Switching to a chain fixes both. One small step for man…one giant leap for VW.
And this from a people who are willing to do an oil change every 3.000 miles as recommended by their american OEMs where in Germany the recommendation since over 10 years is that every 15.000 km is way sufficient!?
In any case: a metal chain wears out as well, is noise, needs to be lubricated. A timing belt is basically maintenance free, and has many advantages. It combines the strength of rubber and metal – and the latest developments in timing belts from e.g. ContiTech (subsidiary of Continental AG, the tire maker) come with timing belts which do not need to be replaced. Best of both worlds!
My 2004 Accord V6 used a timing belt, while the 4 cylinder version used a chain…go figure.
TireGuy : And this from a people who are willing to do an oil change every 3.000 miles as recommended by their american OEMs
Most, if not all, American (and Japanese) cars run synthetic blend from the factory and require 5000+ mile services. Yeah, that’s less than 15k for German cars, but 1) you don’t hear about engine sludging in Fords and 2) it takes a lot of extra oil changes to compensate for a timing belt service.
I replaced it myself. It is not that hard as you might think.
And for those who think metal chains wear out: is anyone gonna notice in this class of car?
Even after 300k of use, a chain is never gonna be the reason a gasoline motor dies.** And the loss of performance is minimal in family cars.
**except for some cars in the 1980s that used phenolic gears for some idiotic reason.
Timing belts are an elegant solution to the problem of driving overhead cams. The only problem is that some makes and models make it far harder to get to the thing than it should be.
Like everyone else said, change it on time. I use Continental (the German rubber company) timing belts for European cars. Easily sourced from places like alleurasianautoparts.com (which is really just a front end on the massive Worldpac operation). As a dedicated DIY guy I do them myself, and have even done a few for friends. I think your Passat is from the same generation as the one this guy did an excellent timing belt replacement write up on:
http://www.vaglinks.com/Docs/VW/Passat/B5/Tripod.com_VW_2000_Passat_V6_2.8L_Timing_Belt_Replacement.pdf
Not a job for the faint of heart.
Oh how I love my pushrod V-8 when I hear all these bent valve stories.
All of Hyundai/Kia engines require a belt at 60k. And it’s not exactly cheap to have done either.
I’ll take a timing chain over a belt any day – I still believe that most manufacturers that use belts do so to help the dealers along with the “required” maintenance.
I’m with the tough love crowd – just suck it up and have your mechanic change it. I don’t really understand owners who won’t shell out the money to properly maintain their vehicle, including the willfully ignorant but more so the pound foolish type. I guess that I was severely traumatized by the beaten down 70s American iron that we had in my family as a kid as they would leave us stranded on a frequent basis.
Money is always an issue, especially when it comes to major repair bills like a timing belt, so here’s a tip: figure out what your annual maintenance costs are for a given vehicle using the past couple years of receipts and your maintenance schedule, and set up a regular direct transfer into a money market account. The regular deductions from your checking account hurts a little at first, but then your spending habits (hopefully) adjust accordingly and you don’t have to think twice about doing your maintenance on time because you have money sitting in the bank collecting interest all the time.
Forgot to add that your direct transfers can be weekly, bimonthly, monthly, 1st and 15th – whatever makes the most sense to your cash flow. This type of system works for all kinds of irregular bills – property taxes, tuition, medical, presents, vacation, etc.
Sorry for all of the financial advice, I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming …
VW recomeneds that their timing belts be replaced at 80,000 miles, but I have heard several reports of these belts lasting over 100,000 miles.
What’s the point of waiting ? 80k miles is every 5-6 years and 100k miles is every 6-7 years. So you’d need to keep the car for more than twenty years before you save by skipping one timing belt change. The higher possibility of a mangled engine offsets this completely. Waiting 20k miles just delays the cost by a year.
The only reason not to change is if you expect to dump the car soon.
Quentin
I have paid between $700 and $800 to replace the timing belt. That included replacing the water pump and belt pulleys, maybe the tensioner too, don’t remember. You could save $100-$150 by replacing only the belt, but then if the water pump does go pins up, you are looking at about the same labor cost to replace it. My cars are both 1.8T engines and the older one now has 138000 miles on it – just did the second belt.
My personal experience has been that these cars are durable and reliable, but I also don’t wait for things to break. Do the maintenance.
Or you could like out like me. At the time the recomendation was (as I recall) inspect at 60k and replace at 120k. At 80k, while still under the powertrain warranty, the belt snapped. I got a new engine and a new timing belt for free :-)
Speaking as one who has had a timing belt let go on an interference motor–get it replaced. Unless you like hearing your car make expensive noises.
Just went through this with my 03 Tacoma V6. Book calls for replacement at 90K, but the dealer said (at 83K) they need to be changed sooner in the desert. I used a mobile indy mechanic. Toyota parts, including new water pump, belt and gaskets, came to $316 and another $300 for labor. The joke musta been on me, because the “old” belt looked new…no cracks, glaze or dry-rot. FWIW…
Steve, DO NOT roll the dice gambling on a VW timing belt!
Get it done NOW!
They’ve had TB issues since the 16v engines in the late 80’s-early 90’s.
@Joe McKinney: is right.
+Also, while they’re there, you might think about replacing all the easy to get at parts on that engine side, while they’ve got all that stuff taken apart.
Like Seals on the cams, intermediate shaft (if there still is one), and crank.
I think replacing the tensioner with new or upgrade is also done.
At one time, there was an upgrade for the 1.8T tensioner, as part of it would break.
I’ve done the TB on a non-interference VW 8v before, but leave the interference engines to the pros, as getting it a few teeth off mark has consequences.
Should be a $700 job. Don’t wait any longer. And have them change the water pump while they’re in there (most mechanics will recommend to do it anyhow).
My 1999 Miata with 72,000 miles is due. But as I understand, in California it is mandated to have 100,000 mile warranty. So in 49 states change at 70K and in California change at 100K. Same belt, same engine. So, I figure I’m good for 25,000 more miles.
By the way Porsche 911 has chains. But over the years, they have caused issues. My 1981 has the upgraded oil fed tensioners, but there is some debate about that even those.
This is the one bit of maintenance on my VW I had done by a pro- mostly because the specialized tools cost about as much as the job. Picked a local euro-car shop (along with a new water pump for good measure) and paid less than half what the stealer posted as their rate for JUST the belt. ~$550 all in. (this is on a TDI)
Do it and save your peace of mind.
–chuck
John Horner :
September 15th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Timing belts are an elegant solution to the problem of driving overhead cams. The only problem is that some makes and models make it far harder to get to the thing than it should be.
Like everyone else said, change it on time. I use Continental (the German rubber company) timing belts for European cars. Easily sourced from places like alleurasianautoparts.co
As I already said – the timing belts from ContiTech, a subsidiary of Continental AG, are first choice.
Tips on problem-diagnosis-solution from ContiTech can be found here:
http://www.contitech.de/pages/news/aktuelles/080121_poster_en.html
Also remedial action is described here.
With regard to the difference of timing chain or belt (where Sanjeev seems to only prefer the chains as they do not wear out), there are many advantages to the rubber belts.
Citation from wikipedia.org:
“While chains and gears may be more durable, rubber belts are quieter in their operation (in most modern engines the noise difference is negligible), are less expensive and are mechanically more efficient, by dint of being considerably lighter, when compared with a gear or chain system. Also, timing belts do not require lubrication, which is essential with a timing chain or gears. A timing belt is a specific application of a synchronous belt used to transmit rotational power synchronously.”
Rubber belts are in the meantime partly even being used for high end bicycles!
So, be happy with your Passat, change the timing belt and enjoy ;-)
chuckR :
September 15th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Quentin
I have paid between $700 and $800 to replace the timing belt. That included replacing the water pump and belt pulleys,
I was surprised why the water pump should be replaced simultanously. But in fact this seems to be a standard solution, as I found when researching on the ContiTech page. They even offer a kit, which may save quite some money when buying the parts:
Citation:”
Even if the workshop is not legally required to replace the water pump when exchanging the timing belt, we recommend that all elements of the timing belt drive always be replaced. And that includes not only the tensioning and deflection pulleys, but the water pumps, as well,” stresses Markus Pirsch, head of Marketing Service at the ContiTech Power Transmission Group. “Only in this way can you ensure that the system works perfectly – to the satisfaction of the customer.”
http://www.contitech.de/pages/presse/pressemeldungen/2008/081217_wapukit/presse_en.html
Man… this is like dickering over the cheap Chinese knock off pacemaker, or the one the doctor recommends. There are some things where you don’t go cheap. Timing belts/chains are one of them. They are a lot cheaper than a new motor.
Okay, okay I get the message! I’m the guy that asked the original question. I never had to deal with a timing belt until my first Passat came due (or past due, as it turns out). I can see now that I was very lucky. I honestly thought it was a scam – of course, it probably was to some extent since I had it changed by the dealer. But, at least now I understand why it is so flipping expensive! And Chuck, I feel the same as you – this is definitely a job for a qualified mechanic. It’s worth the investment – I got 155K miles out of my 2001.5 and plan to do the same (or more) with this one. Thanks everyone for the input!
Colleague of mine just had her Passat belt replaced at 80K. The indy mechanic changed the water pump and maybe more–set her back $700.00 and some change. The dealer wanted a bit over 10 bills.
Right on the money, Sajeev. Replace the belt (and a bunch of other expensive parts) ASAP, for this is the essence of Volkswagen.
Personally, I’ll stick with Nissan and Hyundai and their low-maintenance chains.
The first time i changed my Timing belt on a “world engine” was because there was a grinding noise coming out of the tension bearing. however the fault did happen in the same time the Belt needed to be changed. 10,000 miles later, while accelerating from a red light a very evil sound came out of the engine, and the car was dead…. the culprit turned out to be the Tension bearing, again, it seized and took the belt with it, and the valves which slapped the pistons, it was a massive job to fix, and expensive. SO CHANGE THAT BELT AND BEARING BEFORE YOU GET IN TROUBLE….
TireGuy : And this from a people who are willing to do an oil change every 3.000 miles as recommended by their american OEMs where in Germany the recommendation since over 10 years is that every 15.000 km is way sufficient!?
I like how you switched to metric mid-sentence to make the number look bigger!
Most manufacturers now recommend 5k miles even for severe service. That’s on $2/quart oil. What oil meeting VW, BMW, or Mercedes specs can you buy for that price? You could buy GC, M1 0W-40, Amsoil, etc. and run it for long intervals in an American or Japanese car if you desired, but that would probably cost more anyway.
And this from a people who are willing to do an oil change every 3.000 miles as recommended by their american OEMs where in Germany the recommendation since over 10 years is that every 15.000 km is way sufficient!?
In any case: a metal chain wears out as well, is noise, needs to be lubricated. A timing belt is basically maintenance free, and has many advantages.
First, kudos to rpn453 for pointing out the bait & switch on the miles to kilometers move. As for the reality of that, does any American manufacturer recommend 3K mile OCI’s under “normal” conditions anymore? I doubt it…most new cars are scheduled at 5K miles (that’s 8K kilometers!) for “severe” service or they’ll have an OLM. I had the misfortune of owning a recent GM product and, using the OLM, my OCI’s have been between 7-8K miles (on normal dino, no $$$ Mobil1 or Castrol Edge or German Castrol, etc.).
As for timing chains wearing out and being noisy and “lubricated” (???), that’s crap. A car will be scrapped and melted down before a typical timing belt will go. Noisy? This isn’t 1960…you’re not going to notice a Corolla banging away at a stop light. And lubrication? It’s called motor oil and whether you have a timing belt or chain, you’ll need it.