TTAC Commentator AKM writes:
I own a 2002 VW Golf with 115,000 miles and want to sell it since we’re moving overseas (probably will buy another VW there). Belt changed at 100,000 miles, brakes at 110,000, tires at 100,000. The car is in great overall condition.
However, the engine light is on, simply because the catalytic converter is running below efficiency. According to the mechanic, the only solution is to replace it with an OEM part (i.e. VW-branded) as others might be below the specs required and thus activate the engine light immediately. It’s a $700 part, plus labor.
Do you think it’s worth repairing it before selling it, or selling it as is while explaining the problem? Edmunds gives me an approximate value of $4500, more likely $4000 with the issue not fixed. But what really matters is what buyers will think.
I have another option, which is to buy the part online. The only converter I find for my car is the “Eastern” model, generally at $275. Do you know if it’s the same converter as the original, and can I install it myself, or would it mess up the oxygen sensor?
Sajeev replies:
I would repair it, because receipts for work inspire confidence. You aren’t selling a car: you are selling a car with pre-packaged convenience and peace of mind. But I am a little surprised the converter failed. Are you sure it isn’t a bad rear oxygen sensor instead? These heated O2 Sensors usually lose their luster at this mileage.
And with that, Paranoia Alert! I’ve seen some jackasses overcharge people for a replacement cat (not the one that goes meow) when it was a bad rear O2 sensor or vacuum/EGR problem in reality. An O2 sensor is roughly $50 each. But there’s more cheddar in that fix when you charge for a cat that looks just like your current part.
Would you be able to tell the difference between your VW cat and a replacement VW part? But let’s assume your mechanic has scruples and uses them on a regular basis.
Aftermarket cats are hit or miss, yet they usually misbehave months/years after installation. At that price, I’d go with Eastern, and they claim a five-year warranty, too. Should make the new owner happy, and it has an OEM-ish design that won’t trigger the VW’s electronics like a universal aftermarket unit. Probably. Talk to your mechanic and see if he’s willing to order (and return if necessary) an aftermarket cat.
[Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com]
Easy and cost-free fix. 1) Remove Instrument Cluster Panel. 2) Find offending “Check Engine” light bulb (find it by keeping the harness plugged in and vehicle turned on). 3) Pull light bulb out. 4) Insert light bulb in unused empty socket (to keep it as a backup). 5) Sell vehicle.
A CEL will fail emission inspection in many states, making the owner liable for a limited $ value of repairs in an attempt to repair it. This will happen every inspection (AFAK, in PA) for cars carrying a standard (i.e. “non-classic”) registration.
“pgcooldad”‘s comment make a scan tool an invaluable item to screen potential purchases, lest the CEL be disabled.
I would not disable the CEL circuit.
Otherwise why not just slam buyer in the head with billyclub and steal his wallet too while we are eat it?
CEL light removal wont disable the stored code.
I vote for code scan and then VW forum search.
If you are a bastard you can disconnect the battery cable for a few minutes then reconnect it. This will reset the computer on most cars. It’ll take about 100 miles for the check engine light to come back on. I’d only do this to a dealer on a trade-in.
Of course, this may not work on a VW but it’s worked on a couple cars I had and it got them through the state inspection/emissions check.
No, I have never removed the CEL. It was done to me once. And I highly recomend anyone taking a used car for a test ride to stop at an Autozone or any parts facility to do a code scan.
Remove the bulb and trade it in. Do it close to closing time so they don’t have enough time for the mechanics to run codes on it.
Feel sorry for the dealer? Don’t. They will make it up somewhere else. The purpose of dealers is to clear cars like this out through their system of resell, auctions and the like. Besides, they can probably get the part for a lot less than 700 dollars.
Seriously it’s probably not the cat. They removed zinc and phosphorus from oil over the past years and the engine management systems do a good job of keeping the cat clear. The O2 sensors deteriorate from day one though and are considered a tune up item. I would find another mechanic for a second opinion and scan for codes related to the problem.
Having owned a 2000 Jetta 2.0L and a 2000 Golf 1.8T, I can tell you that the Mass Air Flow and O2 sensors on these cars are the first things you should check. Those two sensors, and the gas cap, are responsible for most of the CEL problems in those cars.
My O2 sensor on the Golf failed so frequently that VW changed the part to a different design twice during my ownership of the car.
The other big problems in these cars are the “sealed for life maintenance-free” automatic transmissions. They usually die around 130,000 miles. The manual transmissions are fine with regular service.
-ted
Use VAG Com to diagnose the problem – you can (or used to be able to) download a trial version from their website and buy a cable from Ebay ~$30 – alternatively there is a forum where you should be able to find someone near you with the tool – this often cost a pack of beer or similar.
If you live near Southern Indiana I can help you out. (I’d have to find my cable though)
As for the Oxygen sensor this is a good check – most are a simple voltage type which are easy to check with a volt meter or scope.
If it really needs a whole new cat, go here:
http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Golf/Exhaust/51/19
Don’t use dealer parts unless it’s the last resort. I’ve always had good luck with the site above, and their prices don’t bend you over (as much). If you have any questions before you buy, contact them. They know their VWs.
Note to all used car buyers: always check for CEL illumination on start-up. It is required to turn on for a few seconds every time the engine is started … if it does not, the bulb has burned out (not likely) or someone has tampered with it.
Ignore any suggestions to remove/disable the CEL. Volkswagens are among the easiest cars to diagnose problems with using the aforementioned VAG-COMM. I believe VW uses the OBD-II set up in countries beyond North America, so if you have a laptop and plan on buying another VAG product (including VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat or probably even a Bugatti) the VAG-COMM is a great investment that will pay for itself the first time you shut off the CEL for a loose gas cap or don’t have to pay a diagnostic charge to find out your MAF went bad.
One step I always take when buying a used car is
to be sure the CE light comes on in run mode before
I start the car. I have revealed a few snakeoil Sams
this way.
Me “Where’s the light??”
Them “Ummmm.. ummm, I..”
Me “Bye.”
Works everytime..
Sajeev is spot on – sounds like the rear O2 sensor. I changed mine at half your mileage. Part of the joy of owning this car is learning about some new sensor every 2 years. A burnt cat just doesn’t sound right to me.
Don’t mess with the CEL. If I were buying from you, I’d find out within 15 min and smack you with bar of soap in a sock.
CopperCountry : Note to all used car buyers: always check for CEL illumination on start-up.
SMART. I look at all the lights, since you can see their outline with the key off. And always look for functional airbag and ABS/brake lights, as those are usually more expensive to repair than your average CEL.
An emissions test in Virginia includes a bulb check. If the CEL bulb will not light, the car gets one of those lovely pink FAIL stickers on the windshield.
Installed an aftermarket catalytic converter in a Toyota Camry at one-third the cost of an OEM unit. The car ran for several more years with no difficulty. It always passed the provincial emission test. If it turns out your oxygen sensor is good and you really do need a new cat don’t be unduly concerned about a non-OEM unit.
In my case the OEM and aftermarket units were from the same manufacturer and absolutely identical. All that was missing was Toyota’s humungous markup. A good mechanic knows where to source the good stuff at reasonable prices. The part is warranted for several years; can’t remember how long. The labor portion guarantee was 90-days.
Regarding the “remove the bulb and hide the problem” posters:
1) This isn’t 1985, so reaching up behind the dash to pluck bulbs out of their sockets is much more challening than it used to be (of course, those of us who’ve actually worked underdash know that has NEVER been easy).
2) Frequently, there’s no bulb to pluck. Many manufacturers now solder an LED onto a circuit board to illuminate the CEL. This assures long life, greater durability, and eliminates any tampering potential.
So all I can say is, “Good luck with that”.
duckfat:
When you disconnect the battery to clear ECU codes it will actually store a new code visible on the scanner that does not illuminate the CEL to the effect of “loss of power within previous 50 starts.” I don’t recall where it was (probably MD, maybe VA), but I read at least one state’s law that stated this code also causes a fail. Luckily I’ve never lived in a smog area, because my old OBD-1 truck always had this code for some reason even when it hadn’t lost power.
Remove/disable the CEL and trade it in: THIS is why dealers feel justified sodomizing people for parts and service.
Agree with the O2 sensor people. It’s something you can usually change yourself if you are reasonably competent, and if you tell the mechanic you suspect it, it can cut down on the diagnosis time and the repair cost.
PLEASE don’t lie/ deceive whoever ends up with this car. Whether you believe in Karma or not, it’s a bitch :)
What’s really dumb about ‘take out the bulb’ is that changing the O2 sensor, or the cat is an easier job. Taking apart a whole dash and instrument cluster just to be an ass and save $50-$250 on a sale? Sure… not to mention that most people know that the check engine light comes on when you turn the key (especially car dealers, duh). Changing the cat is an hour job ($50-$100 labor) at most shops. Look up a tutorial online if you want to DIY, it’s totally doable. I would also suspect that it’s just an O2 sensor, not the whole cat.
When was the last time you had the emmissions checked? This will truly tell you whether or not the Cat is fine. The mechanic is basing his “diagnosis” on the output from the O2 sensors, specifically the difference before and after the Cat. My first inclanation would be to replace the rear O2 sensor as many have advised. My second would be to find a different mechanic, one who doesn’t beleieve in the tooth fairy and OEM only parts. A word of warning, when replacing an O2 sensor, don’t be surprised if it snaps off. It’s operating in an environment of extreme heat and corrosion, the exhaust pipe. IF this happens, you can have a mechanic extract it, and you are no worse off than if you went to the mechanic in the first place – well, except for the time you spent under the car cursing the O2 sensor.
My wife’s 2002 Golf 2.0 had a “bad cat” code for “bank 1”. After replacing the OEM oxygen sensor at a cost of about $100 DIY, I discovered the cat was indeed bad.
VW 2.0s burn oil like crazy sometimes. In this case, oil had fouled the cat by 65k miles.
You can test the O2 sensor using a multimeter and propane torch. It’s a very safe method. Google “test 02 sensor torch.” If the sensor is good, then there is not reason to replace it.
As the VW mechanic told me when I asked about replacing the sensor, “Maybe the cat is bad and the O2 sensor is correct. Why are you replacing the part that’s doing its job?”
VW replaced the cat under a federal warranty. I can’t remember the terms of that, but I think the gubmint forces manufacturers to warranty exhaust components to a certain mileage. Again, this happened about 65k. The repair was thus free.
Of course this is just one story. Your sensor may indeed be bad.
My Lexus is throwing an OBD-2 code indicating a problem in the heated O2 sensor circuit. I haven’t fixed it yet, hoping to wait until emissions inspection is due, but am I correct in assuming this is a very minor problem since the o2 sensor will heat up on its own eventually, and then work fine?
My sister’s BMW 318ti also needed a new catalytic converter. We bought a Universal fit Masterflow one and it fit fine. However the Engine light comes on because the sensors believe it’s not working effectively. You can always try to disconnect the battery to reset it.
xyzzy, O2 sensors have their own circuit for heating up. They get hotter than the exhaust gases, so leaving it as-is won’t be hot enough to turn on the 02 sensor. If you’re handy, you can buy a generic o2 sensor and splice it into your existing harness. Oxygen sensors are only expensive when connected to a carmaker’s proprietary harness.