John writes:
My mom’s 2001 Protégé lx 2.0 automatic was nice when new, 15″ aluminum rims, nice motor, sunroof, etc. Now at 98,000 New Hampshire miles, shipwreck rusty underneath from salt, it needs new suspension. Soup to nuts.
It has horrible rattles from loose suspension fittings, and it floats like a boat, soaring and zooming with mind of its own over gentle rises. Needs new OEM springs, shocks, all bearings and bushings. All local shops say it’s not worth it. Don’t even want to provide a quote. Is it worth it to spend about $1,500- 2,000 on all new suspension? What if it weren’t rusty? What if I did labor with my weekends and spent $800 at Napa for everything new?
Really what I am asking is why do cars wear to point where not fixing, suspension wise? Is it really a throw away car?
Sajeev replies:
I normally say any fun-to-drive car is worth a suspension restoration, but a previous Piston Slap about the Protégé 5 gives me pause. That, and living in rust-free Texas skews my perspective: where I live, no car deserves to die.
Let’s assume rust won’t ruin this Mazda for another 7-10 years: right now, you’re ready for new shocks, replacing any rubber bushings that fails a visual inspection and perhaps other wear points (per inspection) like ball joints. This might be less than $1000. While coil springs can be an issue, it’s usually not until you double the car’s age or mileage.
But as Steven Lang and others on TTAC mentioned, today’s depressed used car market means a rust free car is cheaper than ever. I’d kiss this Mazda goodbye (hello scrap value!) and hope your next rust free purchase (from a more Southern State in the Union) has a decent set of springy bits too.
[Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com]
At first I thought I was being singled out here!
Sajeev: “Let’s assume rust won’t ruin this Mazda for another 7-10 years…”
I don’t think you can make that generous of an assumption for any vehicle made with steel and driven in the Northeast during the winter months. Road salt is so corrosive, I’ve lost good shoes and bad vehicles to it!
But I do agree with the recommendation, scrap the car and get an inexpensive rust-free replacement vehicle (or lower-rust, since rust-free may be impossible to find in NH).
It’s easy to overlook, but road salt damage has a cost. It is part of the cost of living in certain parts of the country/world. Cars will last YEARS less in these areas.
I am quite disappointed with my Mazda as well. The car was wonderful initially, but has slowly started to loosen up and rattle and lose the “zoom zoom” Mazda advertises.
Read about my problems with my 2006 Mazda5 GT here:
http://www.mymazda5lemon.blogspot.com/
Maybe you could find a decent “take off” stock suspension on a Mazda forum for cheap.
As an even better help, how about suggesting replacements that will remain relatively rust-free? While I do agree with ZoomZoom about road salt being nasty, my extended family is in MA and has a bunch of cars older than this and no rust (Jeep, Taurus, Ranger, an Escort, and a Saab). All parked outside year-round.
Climate being the same, is it more about the vehicle itself, or how one cares for the vehicle?
Welcome to FWD and unibody…the disposable car. You want a car worth keeping forever, B-O-F and RWD is it, and good luck finding one, because they are few and far in between.
The real issue is that the rust makes it practically impossible to repair a car once it reaches that point, be it FWD, BOF or whatever. I was recently given a late 90s 4WD Ford Ranger by a relative who bought a new truck. The vehicle would have been perfect for my weekend errand needs and getting around in the winter. However, after I started spending time on the project I realized that although it was structurally intact I didn’t have anywhere near the amount of time or patience to work through all of the incredibly rusted nuts, bolts and fittings. The underside of the truck really looked as if it had been dragged up from the bottom of the ocean. Every job required hours of dealing with fittings that needed to be soaked in penetrating oil, cleaned up manually with a wire brush, heated up with a torch and then gently, but forcefully undone. Also, I noticed that after cleaning up the nuts and bolts they weren’t even the size that they started out as, so a 14mm nut might be more like a 13.5mm and neither the 13 or the 14mm sockets would fit it properly. Even with that treatment enough of the bolts would break so that I had to deal with extractors and the rest. I ended up flipping it to someone with more time and ingenuity then myself. Interestingly, I also have an early ’90s Honda, that although it has some rust issues, is no where near the PITA to work on that the Ranger was. Their basic hardware actually seems to hold up better than the Ford’s did.
I drove a 1990 accord 5-speed coupe in the Snowbelt for 14 years before I donated it to charity, by which time it was a rustbucket.
German RWD cars are alleged to be less reliable than Hondas and Toyotas, but my 4 year experience with my “Magnificent 7” 740iL 98 I bought for peanuts 4 years ago shows that they are far better for the long run.
Another nice feature of most lux cars: the engine is not EXPOSED underneath, as the accord’s was! I was amazed that almost nothing broke in that engine, given the tons of salt it took from underneath. Ont he contrary, the Bimmer’s underside is fully covered.
Mechanical issues can always be fixed, but when the rust has started there is no end to it!
Get another car, buy it in Nevada! I live in Sweden and I don’t think there are many places where cars corrode as here. Me and many others spray our cars every second year with rapeoil or other corrosion protecting oils inside doors, trunk lid, trunk, hood, door sills and other internal areas (drilling is required) and underneath the whole car. The cars treated well can easily go 30 years and + 300 000 mi.
It never ceases to amaze (and sadden) me to see all these imports enjoyng great reputations, with all the problems I see in these ‘Piston Slap’ columns.
My GM cars in the Michigan winter, driven on the Michigan roads to 200k miles, never disappoint, kook-out, or have a mid-life crisis like the imports that I see in this column. To that I say, the tipping point has been reached; things are changing.
Nice column.
Detroit-X :
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:13 am
Most Mazdas sold here are rebadged Fords with a few Tewaks, so what is your point? I also live in MI and we are able to get the Mazdas with the same exact discount with which we can get Fords where I work. My boss has two of them, a 6 with leather and v6 and a MPV.
As for the onetime big 3, too late, two of them are bankrupt, GM used to own 50%++ Market share and now is going from 20% down to an insignificant 10% when all will be said and done.
The only car I bought new for myself was a Pontiac, a small fuel efficient one with a terrible 5 speed, I had it for 11 years and only 65k miles, and it dropped dead in the cold January of 94, engine block froze solid, timing gear broke, etc. My next car I bought with ALready 69k miles, and my next one (the Magnificent 7) had.. 113k miles when I bought it, twice those of the Pontiac when it DIED! Ridiculous.
I will not buy a new car again, probably ever, unless serious tech advances in safety necessitate it, but supposing I did buy a new car, I would not bother to even look at GM and Chrysler, and would wait until they make a car that, in addition to other reqs I may have, both finishes first in enthusiast mags comparison tests AND proves much more than average reliable in owner surveys.
In cases of severe rust, structural issues can cause catastrophic failure. The cases that I know of personally are:
Mid 70’s Honda, strut mounts rusted through, struts popped up through the hood while driving on the highway, car rolled, passengers were OK.
Early 70’s Audi, passenger compartment floor rusted through, rear of drivers seat dropped down to the highway, driver couldn’t see over the dash. (Amusing, really).
Same car, the arms that attached the steering rack to the front struts rusted off, front wheels turned in random directions at random intervals causing loss of control.
Late 70’s VW, disk brake rusted sufficiently to detach itself from the wheel hub. Stepping on the brakes stopped the disk, not the wheel.
Mid 70’s Ford, trunk rusted sufficiently that suspension mounts failed, suspension broke upwards through the trunk.
I tend to not mess with rust buckets. It isn’t worth it.
otsegony, I have a ’94 Ranger with the same problem. I had to have all the rear leaf spring brackets replaced recently, one had just rusted through and broke. Luckily I found a rural truck spring shop that said they do at least one, up to three replacements a day on Rangers! Cost was under $200 and they did it while I waited and watched. The “bottom of the ocean” comment is apt, like you I’m not sure I’d want to deal with anything under there. My regular guy has replaced all the brake lines and rusted out shocks so we are good to go for awhile. Sad thing is the body is nearly perfect the interior is good and the engine is strong. Mine’s 4WD with the 4.0 V6 and automatic (don’t say it… it’s so the wife can drive it too) and very handy around our small farm so I’ll keep it for now. Would like to replace it and our Expedition tow vehicle with a crew cab F-150 or 250, someday.
Wasn’t that generation of Protege notorious for rust?
I live in Southern Ontario. I just traded in a rust free 2001 Grand Am. Ten or even fifteen year old domestics are a common site around here.
@detroit x…The tipping point come’s at about year six with the imports. Expensive repairs and parts will kill you.
John….Haul it to the junk yard,throw it on the heap with the rest of the imported junk.
This topic fascinates me. It is 2009. Northern states have been dumping salt on roads since, what, the 30s? Why are we still seeing cars with rust issues after 8 or 9 years old? The best part is that all of the engineers LIVE AROUND DETROIT!!!!! These people see the effects of road salt every day, and we in the rustbelt STILL have to wonder if our cars will start to swiss cheese after 8 years.
I understand it is all about cost cutting, but buying a new US car is like roulette. Will a new Ford be like the 90s Panther (which is very rust resistant) or like a 90s Explorer or TBird where the rockers disappear (or like the Aerostar, which seems to eventually rust to a pile of ore in the driveway. Every 90s GM car I see (except the old rear drivers) have disappearing rocker panels. I am starting to see bad cab rust on 2000s Chevy pickups. And I live 200 miles south of Detroit.
20 years ago, the Japaneese cars were the undisputed rust kings. But lately, I see a lot more rust on old US cars than I do on Japaneese. An example is the 95-98 Honda Odyssey. In my area, I have yet to see one with serious rust issues.
To stay squarely on topic, when the rust gets going, there is nothing to do but either dump it now, or drive it till it gets unsafe, then junk it. There is no fixing it.
Please don’t assume that all cars from the South are rust free. The southwest can safely hold that assumption, however I’ve seen many a Gulf Coast car with severe rust as much as I’d expect on a car from the rust belt. For instance, I am very wary of used cars from Florida for this reason.
Back to the used Mazda. I had a Protege5 for several years and loved to drive it. Willing chassis – not so willing engine. By the 3rd year it had a lot of squeaks, rattles, problems, worn spots on the interior which should expect use. It seemed to be a good car when new but aged more than I would have expected.
@autosavant…Your Pontiacs block froze solid? The nerve of those nasty GM people. Imagine building a vehicle that requires anti freeze?
Back in the 80s I had a 76 Datsun 280z that my sister lent me after totaling my Mustang. One day I heard a zzZZZzz noise from under the hood that got louder as I revved the engine. I opened the hood to see small plastic bits of fan flying in the air.
The crossmember that supports the engine had rusted and the engine was resting on the front suspension. The fan was hitting the shroud. I could turn the wheel back and forth and watch the engine move. Scary! That car was christened the “Rotsun” from then on. I call my Infiniti “Son of Rotsun.”
I could hear the swearing from the bay when I brought my 2004 (winters driven) RX-8 in for an alignment…a lot of the fittings were seized (and the bill reflected it).
But what about preventative maintenance from the start: undercoating or annual oil sprays? How effective are these…I’ve always wondered!
good one Mikey….I was thinking the same thing.
And Jaje, a good point. It’s not just road salt that will kill a car, salt air will also. Beware of older used cars from Florida.
I remember as a kid growing up in Michgan in the 50s and 60s my Dad always washed(sprayed) under the wheel wells and hood(frame, suspension members etc) whenever he washed the car. Even underneath as best he could with the hose and nozzle in the driveway……I can never remember one of our cars rusting out.
Definitely not worth spending the time or money to fix the issue.
While I don’t live in the Great Lakes region or New England…we have quite a bit of snow and subsequent salt. I’ve had American (Ford), Japanese (Acura and Mazda), and European (Volvo) vehicles…none had had issues with rusting either. The 1984 760 should however have rusted. Oh, and the 1990 Integra that I sold 2 years ago (Dad bought it new in Houston), it made it through several Rocky Mtn winters with ease and no rust. No Jap-crap there. The Mazda is too new to tell if rust will be an issue.
Part of rust-prevention is not only having the car coated but also keeping it clean underneath. Just like anything with a car, maintenance is what keeps it going for a long time.
@otsegony :
You hit the nail on the head! Some manufacturers just seem to use cheap hardware. I guess the $1 savings per car is worth it to them. I always look at how their older cars hold up before switching manufacturers. Mazdas seem to be great cars initially, but after several years, they appear to fall apart faster than most.
I don’t think any Mazda besides rhe B-series truck and Tribute is a rebadged Ford. The Fusion is a rebadged 6, and I don’t think Ford adopted the 3 chassis for anything. Unless the Mustang is a big ol’ Miata?
@Autosavant
Even considering a 1983 vintage, if you managed to freeze a GM engine at 63k, there was likely some user error involved. You can criticize GM for just about anything but engines are pretty low on the list.
Far as I can collect you got 11 years out of a early 80’s Pontiac before you locked the motor up and 14 years out of a used Accord before it got rusty. Neither is really all that complaint worthy and going out on a limb you likely fall in the “impossible to please” category.
You’ll be there with your BMW soon enough, once it kicks you in the wallet balls with a moderate repair.
BTW I have been driving in the salt belt since ~1994. I think big 3 vehicles used to fare better in this aspect but nowadays everybody is using pretty standardized specifications. Considering comparable market segments (don’t compare a Aveo to a E class) most of the variation is just from user care.
All-
I have to say that it is interesting the “SHOCK” at this article… anywhere there is road salt there is going to be rust. Sure, some cars rust sooner than others. I know these Protege had a fairly complicated rear suspension and I used to see a lot of them going down the road with the rear sway bars snapped off and hanging down under the car.
In my observation, these are the worst offenders that I see:
late 90’s early 00’s Pontiac Grand Prix… ALL have rusted sills
late 80’s Hondas (all)
80’s and 90’s Toyota Camry, Corolla
90’s BMW 3-Series (sedans worse than coupes… why? Who knows…)
Ford Aerostar (body on frame no less…)
Ford T-Birds (90’s)
Chevy Cavalier (all)
What I find even more interesting is that some of the cars (Grand Prix) are based on the same platform as say the Olds Intrigue which I see with rust very rarely.
Also, from my own experience with my W124 1995 M-B E300D… it only had one tiny rust bubble from a really tiny door ding after over 400K miles in this environment. BUT, a guy I used to work with drove his 1985 M-B 190e (5-speed!!!!) here in Chicago ONLY commuting to work for 100K miles over 20 years and it was totally and completely rusted out from the middle of the doors down. He was notorious for not washing his cars… and I am the opposite. So, with a small sample size it makes sense that keeping the road salt washed off as often as you can will help.
My GM cars in the Michigan winter, driven on the Michigan roads to 200k miles, never disappoint, kook-out, or have a mid-life crisis like the imports that I see in this column.
I love comments like this. I have a neighbor who has owned a series of white-bread Chevy Impalas that he keeps for two or three years to toodle around town before trading in for the newest version in stunning beige. He doesn’t understand “why people buy furrin cars”, because he’s had zero problems with with his Impalas.
Just because you have owned a couple of reliable domestics does not make all domestics reliable and/or durable. Similarly, a handful of imports made infamous by Piston Slap does not mean all imports are junky rustbuckets.
mikey, Detroit-X, it’s great that you love domestic cars (assuming you can even define what constitutes “domestic”) but a massive segment of the car buying public disagrees with you. Organizations with methodologies to track reliability, durability and quality disagree with you. The recent “troubles” in the industry speak volumes. Your small sample sizes only mean that you’ve been lucky.
And – I am not a domestic hater. I own a 2008 Ford Taurus X (21K and trouble free) and a Saab 9000 (13 years old, 120K so far and has required a water pump, electric antenna and regular maintenance. That’s it. And it has zero rust after 13 New England winters).
Keep an open mind fellas.
I live in Southern Ontario. I just traded in a rust free 2001 Grand Am. Ten or even fifteen year old domestics are a common site around here.
Mikey, you live in Oshawa. That skews what you see on the roads just a little bit. If you look a little further south to say, Oakville/Hamilton/Burlington and Niagara, it more less evens out, and not in a good way as those areas salt far harder than Durham does. Go north to Peterborough and further north and things look better as they use sand instead. Go up to Newfoundland and everything rusts to hell instantly from sea spray.
I grew up in St. Catharines and I saw my fair share of rusted domestics and imports. Since about 1990 the “Japanese cars rust” meme doesn’t really hold water. Specific models have problems, but that’s not isolated to the Asians and usually has more to do with design than materials (eg, saltwater pooling inside door sills or frame rails.
Welcome to FWD and unibody…the disposable car. You want a car worth keeping forever, B-O-F and RWD is it, and good luck finding one, because they are few and far in between.
That’s not really accurate. A BoF car will rust, just not in the same way. You can safely ignore panel rust on a pickup or Crown Vic, but frame rust (which does happen) is far nastier. You can’t see it until either a) the crash safety of the car is badly compromised or b) the car snaps in half (you may laugh, but I watched an F-150 do exactly that).
If you live in either the salt-belt and/or on an ocean coast, I’d advise the following:
* Has the body been compromised, or is it just the suspension?
* Have you babied the powertrain?
If the answer to both those is yes, you may want to fix it. If the body is compromised, just walk away, or keep the car for parts.
If you get a newer car with no rust, do the following:
* Before the first salting, undercoat or rustproof it at a reputable shop. In Ontario, this generally means Krown. I make a point of swapping in my snow tires at the same time.
* Do not park it indoors in winter. Parking in a heated garage accelerates corrosion significantly. Get a block heater and a battery-powered interior heater instead.
* If the temperature goes over zero for a few days, wash the car.
* In spring, wash the whole car, including the engine bay. Try to clean out the suspension mount points and door sills if you can.
* Get clear plastic protective tape for the wheel well edges and door sills. A hood edge deflector is nice, too.
* Fix any rust that starts. Small rust is easy; once it gets a toehold you’re hosed.
* Keep an eye on your electrical system. Nine times out of ten it’s corrosion in this part of the world.
bryanska:
Right and wrong… the Fusion is indeed based on a platform co-designed with Mazda, but in fact the new 6 is based on the enlongated Fusion platform, itself based on the older 6 platform with a longer wheelbase.
As for the Mazda 3, it is actually a Ford chassis… which includes the Volvo S40/V50, European Focus, S-Max, C-Max, Mazda5, Mazda3
A couple people already mentioned it, but the ultimate thing to keeping your car from rusting is washing it frequently in the winter. I use auto bays in the winter, and I time 60 seconds I get for the under body spray to get the most time out of it.
What I find even more interesting is that some of the cars (Grand Prix) are based on the same platform as say the Olds Intrigue which I see with rust very rarely.
A: It causes saltwater to pool next to the body and get trapped there, causing side-panel rust.
Q: What is the cladding on a late-90s Pontiac, Alex?
63CorvairSpyder:
“good one Mikey….I was thinking the same thing.”
I was thinking that he bought an econo box and wondered why it crapped out before his 7 series that cost at least 5 times as much when new. Who would have guessed?
Detroit-X :
I’m not a domestic basher but…I’ve seen them listed in piston slap often enough. Including my own Windstar–thankfully sold (after transmission #2 died @ 79,000 miles) and replaced with a Jeep.
Here’s an interesting study from a Canadian firm -DesRosiers – which tracks the longevity of vehicles by make. The link shows a survey from 2006 which tracks the percentage of survivors 11-20 years old still on the road in Canada.
Note: It’s in PDF, so you’ve been warned:
http://www.desrosiers.ca/2007%20Update/Documents%20and%20Reports/2006%20OBS/Obs2006-8-Vehicle%20Longevity..pdf
The top 3: Best- Lexus,then Mercedes,then Saturn.
The bottom 3: (Not counting Lada!) Least worst Plymouth, more worser Isuzu, even more worse Hyundai.
Now this is HISTORY so you can argue that Hyundai isn’t there any more, but in general I think it’s informative.
Oh – Mazda 12.7% above average; Pontiac 5.8% below average.
FWIW
I also have a 2001 Protege 2.0 and live in the Boston area. I maintain the car very well, and it only has 48k, but the rust is starting nonetheless (trunk lid, doors). The engineering is first-rate, the materials third-rate. However, I am convinced that it will last another 2 years easily and therefore I didn’t flinch at spending $900 to have the suspension repaired. It hasn’t cost dime one otherwise (and I bought it very cheaply anyway).
But low mileage be damned, the first big repair in 2012 means it goes in the crapper. You can’t fight rust, no more Mazdas for me.
@jpcavanaugh:
Why are we still seeing cars with rust issues after 8 or 9 years old? The best part is that all of the engineers LIVE AROUND DETROIT!!!!! These people see the effects of road salt every day, and we in the rustbelt STILL have to wonder if our cars will start to swiss cheese after 8 years.
Imagine you’re an automaker trying to maximise your profits in a market the fattest portion of which would buy cars at Wal*Mart if they could, because they insist on low price and high (apparent) content. Do you choose to sell:
(A) Fewer cars less often
(B) More cars more often
Right, you go with option B unless you want your shareholders to toss you through the front window. Road salt and its effects are very good for the auto industry; you don’t really think they’d deliberately louse it up for themselves, do you?
Road salt and its effects are very good for the auto industry; you don’t really think they’d deliberately louse it up for themselves, do you?
Cars are far more rust resistant than they were 20 years ago. Come to think of it I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rusty Lexus. Again, you get what you pay for.
Do you like the size and shape of your car? If so, buy a rust free example without scrapping your existing ride. The real question here is how many easily broken interior bits does it take to equal the value of a scrap trade in? The answer is always 1 or not many.
Then go ahead and buy sportier dampers down the road for the good one. You’ll end up with a car that is in good shape, can be fixed very cheaply and is fun to drive, without having to familiarize yourself with a new vehicle (and it’s manufacturer’s bespoke tools) repair-wise.
This Protege generation is notorious for rust. As a diehard Mazda enthusiast, I can’t 100% blame Mazda for it, even though it is the rust that made my 2002 Protege5 (that I had spent lots of cash turbocharging and modifying to my heart’s content) not worth repairing in the end. You seriously live in New Hampshire and don’t undercoat your car yearly? Why is it that undercoating cars is commonplace in Toronto, which has a much less harsh winter? What is it about that elusive border that makes people forget that we have the option to protect our cars from rust rather than waiting for rust and then blaming the manufacturer?
Yes, the rusting suspension bits suck. Really though, all you need is new struts and likely a handful of new suspension bushings (possibly sway bar bushings, new spring seat, new strut top mount, etc).
If it’s ok by the rules on here, I’d like to invite you to http://www.themazdaforum.com, a forum I help run. The site is teeming with 3rd gen Protege owners who can help you diagnose and repair your car for the lowest possible cost.
@lokkii…If Dennis DesRosiers reported that the sky was blue, and water was wet. I’d take it with a grain of salt. Most Canadians,and auto industry insider,ignore him.
@DanielJStern
Road salt and its effects are very good for the auto industry
But then they wonder why their resale values are so bad that they have to get out of leasing.
Seeing the rust on some Mazdas has kept me from buying one.
I live in a region of Ohio that receives absurd levels of snowfall and dumps salt on the roads for six months out of the year. Despite that, I’ve had four cars–two Nissans and two Hondas–that went over 140K miles with fairly little rust, one nearly to 250K. (Some other cars I’ve had nearly turned to dust long before that).
I thought that galvanized steel had solved much of the problem, but when seriously considering a Mazda3 or 6, I noticed that many recent ones are showing serious rust. That’s unfortunate, and I don’t understand how Mazda could decide to neglect that.
Why is it that undercoating cars is commonplace in Toronto, which has a much less harsh winter?
Toronto and the surrounding area salt like nowhere else. There’s a climate zone between “too harsh and cold for salt” and “doesn’t get cold enough to make it worthwhile” that much of southern Ontario lands in.
This isn’t government busybody-ism, it’s that the winter temperature swings are interesting. It’s not uncommon to go from -10°C to +5°C in less than sixteen hours. If you don’t salt, you end up with roads that resemble skating rinks. Where the winter temps are more consistently above freezing, or so far below that salt doesn’t work, it’s all a non-issue.
I haven’t been to NH in the winter, so I can’t guess how winters are there.
A friend of mine from Vermont wanted to drive to Alaska one summer, so he bought an old 63 Valiant to make the trip. He reported that he had no problems with the old A-body car except that when he drove over a railroad crossing in Illinois, his side of the driver’s seat fell through the floor. He propped it up with a 2×4, and after the trip sold the car in Alaska for more than he’d paid.
It is true about coastal cars and rust; rust-belt cars rust in the lower portions – the splash areas – but a coastal car can rust anywhere. In Hawaii I saw a 63 Dodge pickup with the seam across the front of the cab above the windshield rusted away; coming down the road the cab top ballooned up like a convertible top. On most days on Kauai I’m sure the guy didn’t mind the extra ventilation.
The rustiest Cadillac I’ve ever seen was on Hawaii. It was quite a ways inland, at Captain Cook.
http://homepages.tscnet.com/pmadsen/hicad.jpeg
In general, cars are much, much less susceptible to body rust than they used to be. I wish I’d taken pictures of some of the rusty mid-50’s to 60’s cars I used to see.
@fincar1
I wish I’d taken pictures of some of the rusty mid-50’s to 60’s cars I used to see.
I nominate the Vega, the 69-70 Ford Galaxie/LTD and the 76 Volare/Aspen for 1st, 2nd and 3rd prizes in the Great American Rust-Off.
I live in Southern Ontario. I just traded in a rust free 2001 Grand Am. Ten or even fifteen year old domestics are a common site around here.
You babied it Mikey, I know that because you said so in another older post. BTW, the GrandAm is an import.
@detroit x…The tipping point come’s at about year six with the imports. Expensive repairs and parts will kill you.
Absolute Poppycock! The hard evidence does not support that notion at all. It would be more accurate to say the GM tipping point is 1 micro-second after the expiration of the warranty!
John….Haul it to the junk yard,throw it on the heap with the rest of the imported junk.
Your GrandAm was an import. Was it junk too? My son has a ‘domestic’ Honda Civic now pushing 22 years old, runs like a dream. The only rust on it is where the paintwork got damaged and was not repaired. The guy he bought it from replaced it with a pos Sunfire (since scrapped) followed by a new pos G5 which is nore often in the shop than on the road. Boy does he ever wish he kept his ‘domestic’ car instead of going for the ‘imported’ GM junk.
Count me among the ignorant masses who didn’t think cars rusted (at least not in only 8 years) any more.
I must have lived in southern california for too long, as even my right-near-the-beach for much of its life miata is absolutely rust free and it turns 20 in two months.
Seriously thought that problem was licked…
I have owned rusty cars (the worst a BMW 2002 that I loved and wanted to save). I have spent a lot of money on rust repairs. A LOT of money. Wasn’t worth it.
In fact the Miata replaced that 2002, and it’s much older than the ’02 was when it died, without any of the same issues. Color me surprised that major manufacturers like Mazda are still churning out rustbuckets!
@jmo:
Cars are far more rust resistant than they were 20 years ago
Maybe and maybe not. We’ll need to wait and see how today’s cars hold up.
Come to think of it I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rusty Lexus.
Come to Toronto — or, better, go to Hamilton or Windsor. You’ll see plenty of rusty Lexuses and other cars that “don’t rust”.
Again, you get what you pay for.
No, you get what the manufacturer chose to build in, and within that constraint in a salty location you get to keep whatever you strive to maintain. When you’re in Ontario spotting rusty Lexuses, take note of how many largely-unrusty 1st- and 2nd-generation Chrysler minivans are still in service on the roads. Lee Iaccoca, despite all his carping about unfair trade with Japan, bought very high quality corrosion-resistant coated steel from Japan to build those vehicles — no American steel maker could supply it at the time. Chrysler minivans and K-car derivatives, we’re talking about here; I don’t recall ever seeing corrosion-resistance emphasised in advertising for them, and I sort of doubt most buying prospects for those vehicles had any thoughts of paying a premium for extra corrosion resistance.
oboylepr:
“BTW, the GrandAm is an import.”
The Grand Am has never been an import. Unless you want to count assembled in Canada as imported.
Daniel J. Stern:
“Chrysler minivans and K-car derivatives, we’re talking about here; I don’t recall ever seeing corrosion-resistance emphasised in advertising for them, and I sort of doubt most buying prospects for those vehicles had any thoughts of paying a premium for extra corrosion resistance.”
I don’t remember if they were covered in advertising either, but brochures from back in the 80’s made a big deal about e-coating and other technologies to combat rust. And besides the 7 year/70,000 mile powertrain warranty they had a 7 or 10 year/100,000 mile outer panel rust thru warranty.
@psarhjinian :
What I find even more interesting is that some of the cars (Grand Prix) are based on the same platform as say the Olds Intrigue which I see with rust very rarely.
A: It causes saltwater to pool next to the body and get trapped there, causing side-panel rust.
Q: What is the cladding on a late-90s Pontiac, Alex?
Actually, interestingly it is the BASE models of this car without the cladding that are always the worst. Of course, the ones with cladding are probably just as rusty but you cannot see it.
I should also put in a little plug for Mazda here, since so many people are bashing them as a brand…. my mom had a Mazda 626 in the rust belt environment for 6 years and rarely washed it. It was perfect when she sold it to a good friend of mine and it is still 100% rust free.
I had a 1994 Miata that I brought from Seattle, and the first time it was at Mazda in Chicago the guys laughed at me and brought me into the shop… they had never seen one if these cars with shiny bolts on the suspension. So, I guess that is just my two cents here.
The Grand Am has never been an import. Unless you want to count assembled in Canada as imported.
Mikey is Canadian, so the Grand Am is an import. The last Grand Prix would be a domestic, from that perspective.
So would the Impala, Regal/Century/Lacrosse/Allure, Civic, Corolla/Matrix, Lexus RX, Crown Vic, RAV4, Edge/MKX and Flex.
@Daniel J. Stern
I used to work in a glass shop ~15 years ago, and we saw plenty of K-car minivans with the rear hatch window frame rusting out.
If I owned a Grand Prix, I would beg that car to rust.. Anything to have an excuse to get rid of it.
Unfortunately I think the Protege might not be worth the effort. It really depends on how bad that rust is. But if you’re going to be fighting every single bolt on the suspension, well, I wouldn’t want to do it.
“rather than waiting for rust and then blaming the manufacturer?”
Bottom line: A modern car should not be rusting after 6 years. And if it is, it’s a piece of shit. Period.
I sure as hell won’t recommend a Protege to anyone. I’m glad I bought a Corolla instead when I had the chance to buy one. Doesn’t bode well for the 3 either. Anyone heard of rusting on the 3 yet? I know mine has a tray underneath the engine bay; maybe that helps. This doesn’t affect me because I don’t own my cars for long, but it could affect resale value, and I won’t be making any recommendations on buying used 3s unless I hear that they’re holding up.
Otsegony is on track with the reality of this car.
TEXn3 is overly pessimistic. The unibody, interior and drivetrain are all sound. Its the suspension and other undercar cadmium plated/ merely painted stuff that dissolves. We just wanted a reasonable repair and unless I do it myself its priced too high by shops. Exhaust is ugly with rust but not unsound yet after 8 years and 93k miles.
Friedclams is in my boat, but 900 was not gonna get me all new struts all around, unless he had some flyer from Sears etc. where I would not go.
Kansei is on track as well, I now use Amsoil rust preventer spray on my clean 99 Miata and reapply more than annually. I am on his site. Not much of a poster there. Miata.net is more useful to me, I don’t do that much to my moms Protege beyond fix the bad stuff that goes wrong. and oil, tires etc. Kansei site did suggest suspension breakdown is not uncommon on older Mazdas, but also new 3s come with loosely attached parts. Lower rear link.
The actual Denouement? Read on.
The car had mild fender bender, the body shop did favor in lieu of insurance kickback ( I dont take actual kickbacks) and put on the struts and strut mounts and some end links and bushings, all bought from Napa by me for about 700, no labor charge. We are friendly- I gave him my old welder a while ago. I like hanging around his body shop now and then. It took him what he said was 4 hours but I bet it was a bit more plus the alignment etc. And we did all the shopping.
He said the rear upper strut mounts were gone, they crumbled to dust as he removed them. Nothing in there but dust and crumbs. That was worst rattle. Oxy-acetylene on all the rusted fasteners, get em red and then snap them off.
Yes, Mazda uses low quality/ineffective corrosion protection except on the unibody itself. They are cheap cars, built to a price. The good thing about Mazda is they don’t cut corners you feel as you drive the car when it is in good shape.
@jmo – if you have never seen a rusty Lexus, then you obviously haven’t spent any time in Maine. The local dealer had a nice row of C4C’d LS400s in a field near the dealership. Some of which I am amazed passed annual inspection. Early ES300s just don’t exist here anymore – all rusted away. Just like all the old Camrys.
Actually, that is a big reason you don’t see THAT many real rustbuckets in the Northeast – all the states here have annual safety inspections that tend to eliminate them. Maine’s is pretty tough (provided the inspector isn’t crooked) – NO HOLES, no rough edges, no structural rust. In the majority of states with no inspection, it’s anything goes.
Also, there is a BIG difference in climate between Northern New England and Southern New England. The climate is harsher in ME, NH and VT than in MA, RI and CT, and MA tends to use a ton less roadsalt. VT seems to be especially bad – I see rusty types of cars that I never see in Maine.
Finally, it is amazing the difference in quality of the nuts and bolts between American/Japanese and European cars. A 10yo American or Japanese car (or even worse TRUCK) around here has lumps of rust where the suspension bolts should be, a 15yo Saab, Volvo, BMW, etc. still has shiny bolts that come apart nicely. But as someone mentioned, you get what you pay for.
mikey wrote:
If Dennis DesRosiers reported that the sky was blue, and water was wet. I’d take it with a grain of salt. Most Canadians,and auto industry insider,ignore him.
Quoted for truth.
krhodes1 wrote:
Finally, it is amazing the difference in quality of the nuts and bolts between American/Japanese and European cars. A 10yo American or Japanese car (or even worse TRUCK) around here has lumps of rust where the suspension bolts should be, a 15yo Saab, Volvo, BMW, etc. still has shiny bolts that come apart nicely.
A few weeks ago I wrote a lengthy post in a quality thread where I discussed my pet theory of the two kinds of automotive quality–assembly and material/componentry. This is a good example of what I was going on about. Individual European car buyers (as opposed to recipients of company cars) may tend to drive less, but they keep their cars considerably longer than Americans. Hence the emphasis on repairability … and on material and component quality, the stuff that affects the ultimate lifespan of the vehicle. Compare that with the Japanese focus on excellence in assembly quality. That more greatly affects how long the car remains 100% trouble-free from new–i.e. the kind of quality more frequent traders care about.
My 2000 Corolla with 135,000 miles has rust in the bottom seam of the driver’s door. It started probably 2 years ago.
I have a 2002 Grand Marquis that is rust-free. It is doing much better than my 1994 Grand Marquis I owned before that when it comes to rust and resistance to the aging effects of salt and winter.
We salt like crazy in Ottawa. You’ll see white cars driving around in January it can get so bad.
My brother drives a 2000 Protege. It’s got rust everywhere.
I still have my 2000 Golf. I’ve had one perforated door frame – replaced last year under warranty because it’s a common defect. Other than that singular event, it’s in great condition.
Better materials or paint? I suspect so. But it’s hard to draw conclusions because I wash my car every week during the winter whereas my brother neglects his.
In any case, I’d suggest not sinking any more money into your car if you’re dealing with perforations. Next thing you know, you’ll be having steel plates welded to the underbody like my brother’s car. Save the money for a decent used car with no rust. There are some good Subaru dealers in New Hampshire if you’re into them. Mind you, I’ve seen those rust out too.
” Slare :
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:50 am
@Autosavant
Even considering a 1983 vintage, if you managed to freeze a GM engine at 63k, there was likely some user error involved. You can criticize GM for just about anything but engines are pretty low on the list.”
65k but 11 years. and the freezing was noit the first thing, first the timing gear broke, and the garage stored the car overnight outside, when the “Siberian Express” hit. The radiator had a hole, which was not the user’s fault either.
“Far as I can collect you got 11 years out of a early 80’s Pontiac before you locked the motor up and 14 years out of a used Accord before it got rusty. Neither is really all that complaint worthy and going out on a limb you likely fall in the “impossible to please” category.”
You obviously do not know me. When I had the pontiac, I was pleased with its high MPG. I also bought it new so I chose the color, larry gautges etc. BUT When I got the Accord, it was 100 times Better Quality wise. Neither car was a lemon, but the pontiac was vay inferior in quality of interior, the 5-speed, ertc, and this is not just my opinion, just open any enthusiasty mag of the time and look at the comparison tests. ANd, of course, Consumer Reports, which was accurate about both, but not about the BMW, which proved far bettger than the CR recommendation to… avoid it (!!@!)
“You’ll be there with your BMW soon enough, once it kicks you in the wallet balls with a moderate repair.”
No I will not. I bought it fopr peanuts and fully anticipated spending 1-2k a year, but I endced up spending much less $2k over FOUR years I owned it. Today I took it to WAsh DC, a 550 mile drive, (3rd this year), fall colors, and all business miles, fully reimbursed.
I do 5,000 reimbursed miles and less than 2k unreimbursed ones with the Bimmer each year (I own a civic with low miles too). The $2500.00++ from the reimbursed miles compares with cost of gas for these trips is much less than 150 gallons, which is less than $750. How do you spell “PROFIT CENTER”? LOL.
Ya know…
What does this say about future Mazda’s??
Metals used in Japanese cars were a mixture of re-cycled – so – not being pure – dissimilar metals – they were bound to corrode. North American cars used to have an advantage there until they too started (or were forced to start) using recycled metal. The thing that irks me is the designed obsolescence. You know – pitman arms – ball joints – with non-lifetime grease cups and no grease fittings but there are grease fittings on the replacement parts. It has been years and years since I’ve found a North American car/truck that didn’t do this sort of thing. So, unfortunately, it has been years and years since I’ve been able to buy one. If the serial number doesn’t start with J (made in Japan) I’m not buying it but would change my mind in a heartbeat if they ever get the message. Right now I think that Detroit thinks I’m as dumb as a sack of hammers. My Dodge caravan – 4 engines and 4 transmissions. Camry – after 17 years – one set of front brakes – two rear – two batteries and a set of spark plugs. 350,000 KMS NO – NO shocks – struts – oops yes two boots. Antenna quit but all electronic gadgets still work and seats and paint look like new still – including the drivers. I have a Chev S10 and replaced all the steering parts at 100,kms with greasable – no more problems – of course head gasket – water pump alternator – everything that can be designed to be replaced. I’m not doing it again. I understand Toyota tried the North American way about 2,000 and dropped below Ford in reliability. Their sales will never recover once the word is out. Good.
Chev has nowhere to go but up. They alone can decide their future. Listen to Merle Haggard and start putting real quality back in and don’t make Monday and Friday cars. They used to be able to do it. I’m sure they can again.