Virgil writes:
What has been your experience selling a car privately? My recently widowed sister in California has a 2003 Infiniti Q45 with 10,000 miles. Yes, ten thousand. But I live 2000 miles away. An ad in the paper or Craigslist would certainly bring riff-raff to the door. A simple test drive could turn into a missing car. The dealer offered about half of market value, a private sale could make both parties happy.
Sajeev replies:
The Mehta clan dumped several cars for trade when a manufacturer offered us disgusting incentives to buy/lease another company vehicle. Not proud of those moments, but that’s how easy credit and the lure of New Car Smell works. Now that credit is tight and lease rates generally suck, I’m a big fan of private party selling.
I’ve had good luck (twice) with Craigslist. Both sold in less than 24 hours to people who reaffirmed my faith in humanity. They sold for their (reasonable) asking price. And these were $15,000+ late model cars, much like your sister’s Q45. The keys to my successes are:
♦ A detailed write-up on the vehicle’s good and bad aspects, recent service history and corresponding receipts.
♦ Spending an afternoon cleaning/detailing everything, including dust on the engine and spots on the floor mats.
♦ Putting ALL CAPS, bold face proclamations in the ad stating that I am not a dealership. You have cash/cashiers check or we don’t talk. <
♦ Taking hi-res pictures inside and out.
And don’t bring riff-raff to the door: meet prospects in a very public parking lot, like a high end shopping mall, at high noon. If you have full coverage insurance, let them (potentially) steal the car: it is worth the risk to find the right buyer and put them at ease, too. And your (recently detailed) ride no longer has any valuables or identity theft threats, aside from the license plates.
But I get it: a single woman (with more important things on her mind) won’t share my enthusiasm for private party selling. That’s what brothers are for: help her write the ad, find a place for car detailing and see her comfort level with meeting strangers in a somewhat safe place. Maybe go for a visit and throw the ad up there: you have nothing to lose other than your frequent flyer miles. And thousands of dollars at a stealership, of course.
Best of luck to her, whatever route you both choose.
[Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com]
On my private sale I went along for the test drive. I told him that it’s still my vehicle, and I let almost nobody drive my vehicles without me. It didn’t seem to bother him at all.
I’m a fan of private sales. I have no interest in ever dealing with a dealership when it comes to buying or selling used cars.
Road trip. Seriously. Fly to your sister’s and drive together back to your house. Road trips are great sibling time, and it’s a great opportunity to be there for your sister at a tough time for her. 2,000 miles will take 3-5 days depending on your pace. See that cool place you didn’t get to see as kids (Grand Canyon, anyone). The 2,000 miles won’t hurt the value of this nice, low-mileage car. Bring all the maintenance records and paperwork with you or Fed-Ex them ahead.
When you get to your house, sell the car as described above. If sis has to head back, get a simple power of attorney for your state (either the DMV or online) and sell if yourself. I always put up a dedicated web page with lots of images and all the disclosures (only give the URL to people who actually call and you pre-qualify)–this saves A LOT of time.
You’ll have a great time, and your sister will know you for the great brother you are.
Good and bad results. I have a reputation for keeping my vehicles in tip top shape. My friends and neighbors usually want my cars. Right..so I sell a car to my neighbor,something unknown breaks,and I got a pissed off neighbor. My buddies 18 year old son wanted my 2001 Grand Am GT.
A well maintained 3.4 in a Grand Am GT will eat all the fart canned, tuned Honda Civics for breakfast. Or so the kid tells me. I get a call from his dad.”Mikey..DO NOT! sell that car to my kid” I traded it in.
When my father inlaw passed away the family had to sell his four year old Crown Vic. I detailed the big Ford, certified and E tested it. We parked it on my brother inlaws rural front lawn.
We cracked a beer and made up a 4 sale sign. Before we finished the beer,a scruffy looking couple stopped for a look. After spending a day detailing the interior,I wasn’t sure about the test drive they wanted.
So all four or us go for a ride. Doesn’t scruffy start heading down some dusty back road. I’m in the back seat cringing..all the time thinking…”why did I let this hillbilly behind the wheel”
We get back to the house with the now dirty car. Scruffies girlfriend/wife,cousin,sister..who knows? says “we will take it” didn’t try to knock us down, didn’t ask anymore questions. “Cash or certified check” we tell them and they drive off.
We write it off to experience. My brother inlaw calls a couple of days later. “You won’t f—en beieve it I got a certified check in my hand,and the Crown Vic, dirt and all is gone”
I’m with Findude. Except you seem to want the car. So when you get back give her the right price money and a free ticket home.
Steve Lang wrote series of articles here on buying. To sell read them in reverse.
I’m curious as to what you consider the real market value of that car. KBB has trade in at $10,300 and private party at $12,300, both of which seem pretty reasonable to me assuming good condition and no mechanical problems.
If your sister doesn’t want to deal with the hassle of selling it, why not just give her the $11000 to split the different between trade in and private party value, ship the car over to you (should cost around $600 – $900) and sell it yourself for around $12,300. Your sister gets fair money for the car and avoids any hassle, and you get a few hundred for your trouble.
Here’s a wacky suggestion.
Make the “public place” a police station. She could drop by with a few dozen doughnuts (depending on the size of the local constabulary) and ask permission to do the meet there.
Of course she should check I.D. and write down license plate numbers etc, of the people that come to test drive the car.
Best of luck selling the car!
Do you really just hand the keys over to a stranger and let them take off?
Tell the person that for insurance purposes you need to be riding shotgun (it’s BS but most people won’t know). If they get balky then tell them it’s that or nothing. You have the right to keep an eye on them.
One of the best sales I’ve experienced (I bought the car) was when the seller drove to my place and picked me up, then handed the car over and let me drive for a good half hour. It gave me a chance to talk him up, find out the history and then quiz him about various things I was noticing while I drove. After the drive we pulled into my parking garage and I gave it a thorough look over. It went smoothly for both of us and I happily paid the reasonable asking price, because I could see he was a genuine fellow and a stand-up seller that wasn’t hiding anything.
Wanna guess what the car was? Starts with “Q” and has a V8.
The price is quite low for a Q45, even a 6-7 year old, given the 10,000 miles, and especially that the car was in CA and not in Minnesota. It makes a huge difference.
Generally I do few miles on any one of my cars, and when I buy used I prefer the opposite, revent year and high miles, so I can be assured they are easy, highway miles, and after I buy the car I only put 5-7k max each year, so it will not quickly go over the hill.
But if this was a Minna car, or a MI car for that matter, I would be far more cautious. UNLESS I had PROOF it was driven only in the summer, or only on road trips and not on 1 mile segments to the store or the church or whatever, in below zero temps, with cold starts that are far more damaging than 100 miles on the highway with engine fully warmed, on cruise.
I sold my last car via Craigslist. The biggest problem was the number of cold calls you get from companies “wanting to help you sell your car”.
Don’t let them test drive it without some collateral (i.e. key’s to the car they arrived in – if it’s worth something)
If you have full coverage insurance, let them (potentially) steal the car
You’re having us on; you can’t really be serious. No! The seller stays with the car at all times unless he is incredibly, remarkably stupid (or masochistic).
When permitting a test drive, tell the potential buyer that you will need to see a valid drivers license. If your state permits bmv access over the internet, tell them that you will need a printout showing that the license is valid on the day of the test drive. They can bring it, or authorize you to run it. Check the expiration date, and whether it is suspended for any reason. The police station meeting place is a good idea, and you might ask if police will check the validity of the license before the drive.
At an absolute minimum, have them show you the license and ask point blank if it is valid or suspended.
The reason is that many car insurance policies will not pay if the driver is driving without a reasonable belief that he is entitled to do so. In my state (Indiana), courts have held that if a driver does not have a valid license, he cannot reasonably believe that he is entitled to drive the car. You don’t want an accident then your insurer denying the claim because of lack of a valid license. Even if your collision insurance covers the car, you don’t want to risk liability of the people in the other car suing you for damage that your insurance won’t pay and that your buyer won’t be able to pay.
Ok, having sold 1 car on Craigslist a few months ago, I am now an expert. Here’s what I learned:
1. Pictures draw interest. You won’t get much activity without them.
2. Only allow email responses. DO NOT post a phone number. Clearly state cashier’s check only.
3. Talk on the phone before you meet. Don’t meet some one that sounds sketchy.
4. Do the test drive like a dealer. First give them the walk around features and benefits. Point out every flaw as well. Then, you drive first, then switch. Handing the stranger the keys to test drive alone is beyond stupid.
5. Post it every day. There are tons of adds and you are on the bottom of the page or off it in 24 hours in urban areas.
6. Price it at a negotiable rate. Doesn’t matter how good the price is, people want to negotiate.
Craigslist is the way to go. The ads I’ve placed have generated far more responses than paid sites like cars.com and autotrader. You will get “tire-kicking” e-mails that are a nuisance, but you will sell the car – I’ve sold 4 cars using craigslist and they were all relatively painless transactions.
A few things:
* I always ride along on the test drive, no exceptions.
* I always meet at a public spot for the initial meeting, and only after receiving the deposit and paperwork will I allow the buyer to come to my house to pick up the car.
* Be aware of your state’s laws governing private sales. Massachusetts’ lemon law extends to private party tranactions, but it is limited in its application.
* Make sure the check clears before signing over title – even cashier’s checks can be stopped or counterfeited.
Good luck
And oh yeah – Cole Trickle is right – pictures are king on craigslist.
The number one biggest POS vehicle I ever owned was an 89 S15 4×4 long box. If the GM logo wasn’t present on my paycheck, I wouldn’t of bought GM ever again. There, I said it. That paint delamenated,oil leaking,rough riding,money eating truck is the only reason I read all of the GM bashing comments here at TTAC. I CAN relate.
With paint peeling off of it everywhere,no dealer wanted it.
I tried for 2 months to sell it. I got every as—le that every breathed, for clients. I wanted 5k for it, I dropped it to 45. One guy offered me 2k up front and a thousand a month for 2 months. I agreed…but told him “I keep the truck till I got all the money”. He told me to F.O. Another couple of young fellas,both reeking of beer and pot,wanted to take it for a run,without me, to check out if the four wheel drive was working. I directed them to a used car lot.that I believe was run by a bike gang. “run your test drive idea past those lads see how that goes over” then I told them to F.O
Finally I got a quickie paint job and cut my losses. I traded it in on a brand new Chevy WT,that I never had a problem with.
SexCpotatoes : Make the “public place” a police station.
I love that idea! Check with the people at the front desk first. I’m sure they won’t say no to a nervous looking woman, though they’ll probably tell most men to go pound sand. :)
————————
JEC : Do you really just hand the keys over to a stranger and let them take off?
Daniel J. Stern : No! The seller stays with the car at all times unless he is incredibly, remarkably stupid (or masochistic).
Sorry, I know someone who got car jacked at gun point and crammed into the trunk of their car. I value my life/well being more than some car that I no longer value. That’s what insurance is for, people.
This is also assuming the people interested look respectable, I’m not saying that you give the keys to your Z28 to any 16 year old who contacts you via email. Common sense!
But more to the point: LIFE > Money
Lots of good advice has already been posted. I like the road trip idea! Before going the craigslist route, put the word out to friends and family members. The last two times I sold personal cars they both went to friends. These guys know how I take care of my cars and were ready to jump at the opportunity.
A Q45 is a more specialized vehicle than a Camry, so you might also consider selling it on eBay.
In addition to the above good advice, I’d like to add cars.com and autotrader.com for cars worth more than $5k. I’ve bought and sold eight cars in the past seven years without a hitch. I’ve tried craigslist, but it attracted to many scammers. One poster mentioned email responses only — I actually prefer to only list a phone number. This eliminates spam email from teenage kids in Nigeria.
Only deal with a local buyer. Go to their bank and watch the teller withdraw funds from their account and cut the certified check.
Twotone
I would buy this car if it hasn’t been in an accident and your sister and I can agree on a fair price.
And I’m no slim shady.
We’ve had our first baby recently, and I was actually looking for one of these, as I’ve always thought they were underrated and very good cars, and it meets our needs.
Sorry for the comment jack, but this is almost fate-like.
ohsnap… I think you have hit on something.
How about TTAC Used Car Section? Make it a curbside review for entertainment value while letting the good folks here see some deals – no one is going to pull any punches when this community is looking over their shoulder.
Maybe. Or not.
Id start with local auto trader and newspapers. If it doesn’t sell within a few weeks, then go to craigslist, etc. As mentioned meeting at a mall or other area is a good idea.
ohsnapback : I expect a referral fee. :)
Mr. Stern:
I disagree with you on whether you should accompany the prospect on the test drive.
You shouldn’t.
If he’s gonna wreck it, I’d rather not be in the car when he does.
If he’s gonna steal it, I’d rather not be stuffed in the trunk or ordered out of the car fifteen miles from home.
If he’s gonna blow it up, what am I gonna do to stop him?
It’s probably best to take the car out for a few miles first so he isn’t beating up a cold drivetrain but I want a decent chance to check for problems at WOT/brake threshold/cornering limit. Better to pass on a car with a wierd ignition issue, or $$$ worth of worn suspension or brake parts.
This is a bit unrelated but at first glance I thought he pic to this post was a Kia Optima…
Sajeev, referral fee? No problem.
I’ve always wanted to say that there is a huge arbitrage waiting to be exploited here with car owners who ultimately give in and give up thousands of dollars to the dealership because they find “trading in” so much more convenient, so much less of a hassle (and safer?) than attempting a private sale.
If there were some conduit where the hassles car owners face when selling their used car privately could be minimized, great efficiencies would result as both the sellers and buyers would eliminate the car dealerships, which only raise transactional prices.
Of course, dealers would take a whoopin’, because they make more off their used car sales, on average, than new car sales, but hey – that’s the free market for ‘ya.
ohnsapback@gmail.com
Bancho, the resemblance to the Kia Optima front end, or vice-vera I should say, is uncanny.
I’ve always wanted to say that there is a huge arbitrage waiting to be exploited here with car owners who ultimately give in and give up thousands of dollars to the dealership because they find “trading in” so much more convenient,
With that theory a used car dealer could dominate the industry by buying used cars for more and selling them for less. In exchange for the lower margins he/she would enjoy much higher volumes.
With no one willing to narrow the margins any narrower than they are now, I’d say the gap between trade-in, private party, and dealer is about as narrow as the margins are likely to get.
I never understood this “public place” advice. You mean EVERY time I make an appointment for someone to see my car for sale I have to drive somewhere at a particular time to show it? Yeah, that’ll happen. In 70-80% of cases people just don’t show up. You can spend countless hours driving back and forth and wasting your time. And the police station idea with donuts? How many times exactly do you buy them donuts?
I recently learned that a cashier’s check is the least trusted method of money exchange. Two partners and I were starting a business, and we put our initial capital into a bank account. I brought a cashier’s check from a bank less than 5 miles away, which was held for nine business days! The partner who brought a personal check was only held for three days. So I agree with the poster who says that if you’re taking a cashier’s check, go with the buyer to the bank and watch it made. You’ll still wait nine business days for it to clear, but you’ll know it’s good. Better yet, see if you can arrange a wire transfer.
Regarding contact methods: if you want to eliminate online scammers from craigslist by using a telephone number but don’t want to give your telephone number, get a throwaway number. Different phone companies have different names for them: signal ring, ringmaster, whatever. It’s a new phone number that rings to your existing landline, but with a different ring style so you can tell which number was called. After the sale is complete, disconnect that number (after giving the buyer your real number if you want to be a stand-up seller). They only cost about $5/month.
@vvk:
I never understood this “public place” advice. You mean EVERY time I make an appointment for someone to see my car for sale I have to drive somewhere at a particular time to show it? Yeah, that’ll happen. In 70-80% of cases people just don’t show up
This is the REAL reason private party selling can really suck. Do not underestimate the hassle/PITA factor of this. Even if you show it at your house, you still spend a bunch of time waiting for people who don’t show up.
Another annoyance is when you promtply return someone’s message and the first thing they say is “what car was it you had again” and then proceed to ask you things that were already in the ad. Yeah, it’s naive to think everyone isn’t trolling lots of ads, but it becomes obvious they were looking for a commodity and aren’t really interested in anything in particular about your car.
You’ll still wait nine business days for it to clear, but you’ll know it’s good.
One other thing to note. Just because it “clears” doesn’t mean it cleared. The bank may “clear” it after 3 days and it shows as in your account. Then at 5,7 or 9 days it bounces out of the system as forged and your bank will grab the money back out of your account.
http://banking.about.com/od/securityandsafety/a/cashierscheckfd.htm
Definitely meet in a public place, and bring a friend. Safety first. Consider what happened to this unfortunate woman, in a quiet suburb up here in nothing-ever-happens-Canada:
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2009/08/18/10499506.html
Good points about the pita factor. The ONLY reason I sold my car was that it was worth 3k on trade, 6k to a private party. The sweet spot where I can double my money. I kept my communication to email until I found somebody who really wanted the car. 1 test drive and he had the cash the next day.
I got lucky, but private party selling can be a huge hassle even if you don’t get knifed in the process.
Even with my simple process, I doubt I’ll do it again.
A friend of mine several years ago rode in his car on a test drive with the potential buyer. The guy waited till they were a little ways away pulled over, pulled out a gun and told him to get out.
I have sold one vehicle by private party that was very easy. It was a father buying a car for his son and I let them drive it by themselves while they left their car with me. They paid me with a personal check and had no issues. I was probably lucky on that one but was able to get many thousands more than trade in.
Recently have sold most of my cars for trade in ar CarMax because its so easy. Most dealers would tell me if I had a good offer from CarMax to take it that they couldnt beat it.
If you really want to be sure about the funds, go with the buyer to their bank and have them buy the cashier’s check in front of you. Go to the next window (buyer still with you), and use the cashier’s check to buy a new cashier’s check (pay the fee–probably $10.00 if you’re not a customer).
A lot of this depends on the amount of the sale. Up to about $5,000 just insist on cash. They can put it in your hands inside your favorite branch of your own bank. Then you deposit it.
How much does she want and in what part of Cali is she? Yes, TTAC needs a Classifieds section.
For an Infiniti, I would have to also recommend nicoclub.com. Her brother may also want to get some auto transport quotes. That would go a long way to assuaging potential buyers.
Just so you know, if we can agree on terms, tell your sister I will pay in cash, and I will provide her with my FBI background check along with security clearance. :)
I’m glad to hear that some of you have had good luck with Craigslist. I’ve tried for about three months to sell my car on there with NO responses, other then those wretched help-you-sell “services”. I made sure that my asking price was in line with other similar models, and even tried listing it in several parts of the state. Nothing. Oh, and I also spent good money to list it on Autotrader, and you know how many call and emails I got??? NONE!!!
I’m trying a good old fashioned For Sale sign in the window now…
Oh what the heck, anyone looking for a nice clean HHR???
” … a huge arbitrage waiting to be exploited … ”
To a certain degree that is exactly what eBay does. Dealers and private parties are on equal footing on eBay. It isn’t, however, terribly convenient to sell really big stuff like cars or grand pianos on eBay, but thousands of them move that way every day.
For smaller things like literature, car parts and other collectibles eBay has in fact been exactly the kind of wholesale/retail price collapsing force you are thinking about. Several years ago I sold a bunch of cameras and automotive literature on eBay for much higher prices than any dealer offered me and generally for lower prices than dealer retail.
It should be a very public place. This happened here locally not that long ago. Guy met a young couple in a parking lot to sell them his Suburban. The taped his face and threw him in back where he suffocated, then tossed him in a freezer:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-12815.html
3 other forums I hang out at have for sale sections.
Be sure to get a copy of any prospective test drivers license ID and also make sure that they have proof of insurance. Also go along for the test drive.
If you want to post a phone number, don’t use your own but get a prepaid disposable phone as you’ll be getting a flood of junk calls.
Two other tips: One, have the car FULL of fuel. Makes the buyer feel like he is getting a bit extra. Another good reason to do this is if you have a check engine light that occasionally comes on due to a minor leak in the evaporative control system (present on all cars from ’96 on) the evap test does not run if the ECM knows the tank is mostly full.
The second is have an oil change reminder on the window with about 1000 miles “used up”. This makes the buyer feel that you have been diligent with the changes. I was always suspicious when I checked out a used car with brand new oil and fresh sparkplugs (yes, I pull at least one. A plug is the ultimate truth serum for an engine)
I second the Carmax. They usually are very reasonable on their offers, quick, and professional. Think about how much time you’ll spend writing an ad, answering calls, waiting around for people, going on test drives, maybe getting carjacked, hoping you have a real check, etc etc. Then decide if its TRULY worth your time.