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Silicon Valley believes itself different from Detroit. From anywhere, really, In fact, they’re masters of the friggin’ universe! Detroit? Detroit’s automakers must die! Will die! Are dying. Die Detroit, die! Long live . . . Tesla?
“I do not believe that the U.S. auto business can be competitive,” said Ray Lane, a managing partner at Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield & Byers, told Automotive News [sub] “I don’t see any of these new car companies based in Detroit.”
64 Comments on “Quote of the Day: Detroit Must Die Edition...”
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The irony is deep…
New car companies starting up in one of the most liberal / handout ridden states making fun of Detroit.
Maybe they can design cars in Cali and build a few hundred here and there, but they will be heading to southern states and/or Mexico if they want to run any real volume.
Hey pot, the kettle is on line 3….
Once people in Michigan realize that you need to work hard to make much money they will attract new companies… oh wait, that would require getting rid of unions… so it wouldn’t work in Michigan then and they will depend on our tax money forever…
One can change management (and GM hasn’t even accomplished that), but you can’t change workers when the entire state believes unions are good. So they will keep whining while car companies build more and more car factories in the South.
Where does Ray Lane say new car companies will produce in CA? I only read that they won’t in Detroit?
I remember a quote from a chairman of Intel, the chipmaker. He said due to all the hurdles and obstacles California puts in front of you, he would never again build a plant in the Golden State. This from the CEO of perhaps THE Silicon Valley-based company.
As had the Tesla dudes Lane is probably oversimplifying the process of carmaking. They think they can stamp them out like Intel can CPUs. I’m not saying any new car company must be based in Michigan, but there is/was a lot of carmaking experience/talent that was laid off by the Big 2.75.
Detroit is a dead city, it’s not even up to debate. Just look at these pictures:
http://ziza.ru/2007/03/13/detrojjt_ili_kak_umirajut_goroda69_foto.html
(ads may be NSFW)
[edit: The carmaking experience has gone to Georgia etc. Only lazy are still in Michigan.]
I am from Memphis, TN. I still live here, unfortunately, I’ve tried to escape a few times.
Anyway, my point is that Memphis is effectively Detroit south. They’re both places where no company will come and set up shop because of the crime rate and state of decay in each city.
Memphis doesn’t have the union problem as far as I am aware, but in all other respects they are similar.
They build Nissans in Smyrna, at least.
The only thing I can think of to say that’s positive about Detroit is that it’s an UrbExers paradise.
This sounds like typical coastal thinking. I’m not sure they really understand that the vast majority of Americans, the buyers who form the market in which they hope to sell cars, live ordinary lives and earn ordinary incomes. They will not be buying $100,000 electric roadsters or $60,000 electric sedans. They will be buying mostly ordinary $15,000 – 30,000 sedans and SUVs.
A mainstream auto maker has the resources to produce a dozen different models that appeal to a broad range of tastes and sell them each by the hundreds of thousands. With a little luck they may even make a bit of profit doing so. It is just possible that every now and then a niche car maker such as Tesla or Fisker will actually succeed, but they will never be more than that–a niche car maker.
Stout, Davis, Tucker, Bricklin, Delorean and others all thought they could reinvent the automobile and set the world on fire. None of them turned out so well, did they?
I wonder if Ray Lane knows that Tesla has an engineering office in suburban Detroit, and that Fisker (which is funded by Lane’s VC firm) has also discussed having a facility in the Detroit area. Fisker’s hybrid uses an Ecotec 4cyl sourced from GM.
A hundred years ago Detroit had a local economy that was MORE dynamic and innovative than Silicon Valley’s is today. Once upon a time Henry Ford was running a tiny start-up.
Detroit’s era of industrial dominance lasted more than half a century. Meanwhile Silicon Valley emerged as a dynamic and vibrant local economy about 30 years ago but its dominance over the high-technology industries has been dissipating for some time now.
These things go in cycles and Detroit’s time at the top was longer than most.
mdensch, They didn’t get to mass manufacture the Tucker but the safety systems contained therein made their way to modern cars anyway, did they not? That’s not what I’d call a failure.
Does anyone really know the true Tucker story?
I mean I’ve seen the movie, and read some about it, but it seems like Preston Tucker got railroaded. What I’ve always believed is that companies like *ahem* GENERAL MOTORS were too cheap to want to have to be competitive with Tucker’s safety features.
It’s long and rambling, but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Tucker
More Tucker:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Tucker_Sedan
The 1948 Tucker Sedan or Tucker ’48 Sedan (also nicknamed the Tucker Torpedo) was an advanced automobile conceived by Preston Tucker and briefly produced in Chicago in 1948. Only 51 cars were made before the company folded on March 3, 1949, due to negative publicity initiated by the Big Three.
So yeah. Merkin companies were like Oh no! Disc Brakes! That’ll be something we’ll actually have to spend money on! We can’t be doing that! We have to run this guy outta town!
Robert, Can you do a post about Tucker before you go? That and one based on this too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal
This has always made me furious to even think about. GM Single handedly destroyed public transportation in the United States. Bastards. This is yet another of the many, many reasons to pretty much just despise GM. Apologies for the strong language but I think the US would be a far better, more sociable place to live if it weren’t so car centric. Everyone has their little transportation bubble they can ride around in and not talk to anyone. *rage*!!!
For the record, there are only three actual automotive plants in Detroit and one is about to be closed, its replacement north of Detroit. All of the rest of the plants are either suburban Detroit or SE MI.
Although the unions are often blamed for the demise of US automakers two important points need to be considered. 1) the real cause of the US automakers demise is the decisions made by management and 2) as Lee Iaccoca said many years ago, sure I can build vehicles overseas in third world countries at lower cost but who do you think is going to buy them?
It’s easy to blame the unions and forget they created the middle class. The real problem today for any kind of US manufacturing is the lack of a fair trade policy. Did the unions kill the textile and steel industries too? No established country will ever be able to compete with an emerging third world country head to head, that’s simple economics.
If you think the unions are the problem you need to take into consideration all of the circumstances. The third world countries don’t have the stringent environmental controls either. Not to mention their standard of living.
@ zaitcev
Good lord, are all those really Detroit? Looks more like the History Channel show Life After People.
http://www.history.com/content/life_after_people
That said, almost everything is cyclical. Detroit will see good days again. Just hope the down-cycle isn’t as long as the up-cycle.
So is this why Tesla is hiring former Chrysler Executives like Mike Donoughe? Because what could he possibly know, right? Evey Musk has realized that “buidin’ cars is hard!”
I’d go 8k on the hoss. Gray looks like it can go downhill without screaming.
@zaitcev:
those are some pretty powerful pictures. Hopefully the motor city can rebound, but I’m really not that optimistic.
@others (re:tesla):
I honestly wonder if the electric car may breed the decentralization of the automotive industry; it removes and commodotizes(sp?) much of the automotive I.P. –> A cost-effective battery is perhaps 10 years away (except for early adopter-folk), but once it is available… the manufacturing of a vehicle becomes the realm of a much smaller company than GM, Ford, ToMoCo, Etc.
I think a reasonable analogy is the semiconductor industry 15 years ago; it was once the realm of those few large companies with manufacturing and process capability. Now it is the realm of those with design capability and manufacturing and process capability are both outsourced. Thoughts?
BTW: RF –> you will be missed.
//dan.
Maybe you need to look at a few of these. The polar opposite of whats typically printed which is the delerict pieces of Detroit.
I can find plenty of corrupt building pictures in New York, Chicago etc but I would be foolish to say that those cities are totaly derelict.
The Guardian Building
http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/mZ5tgbVCwxWOwLobyY9kCw
The Fox
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snweb/2779515265/
The renovated Book Cadillac Hotel
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snweb/2972802877/in/set-72157603542005533/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snweb/3001770842/in/set-72157603542005533/
Inside St Albertus
One of many stunning Detroit Churches
http://www.flickr.com/photos/profkaren/1517296129/
St Marys
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikedee-photos/3072851850/
Just several of many. When in Detroit all I can say is as a student of architecture, never judge a building by its exterior.
Ray is just waiting for Moore’s Law to take effect with Think Global.
But in all seriousness, the folks at KPCB have impressed me more so than probably any organization in the ‘investing’ business. They tend to put their resources towards companies that already have a strong presence in an embryonic industry. Electric cars on the other hand have struggled for over a century. But if Think’s claims are genuine, these folks may be betting on a good horse.
I believe their strategy here is more reminiscent of Bricklin’s importation of Subaru to Israel (finding a unique place that has a multitude of forces on your side). Than as a solution for larger countries that already have very deep infrastructure issues. With that said it will take relationships and influences of Huey Long proportions (make that FDR) to make this California project successful.
In layman’s terms, I think it can succeed… in cities and small countries with very dense populations and near developed level incomes. Singapore, Belfast… places where unions are weak and governments are either strong or make it so that private interests can operate with minimal corruption issues.
For now, I don’t see them seriously hurting the diesel and hybrid markets in places that don’t have these characteristics anytime soon.
@Ronnie Schreiber :
Tesla closed their Detroit engineering facility in October of 2008. laid off most of the staff via a blog posting from Musk, then a few days later finally followed up with official communications. those who were not laid off were asked to pay for their own relocation to CA if they kept their jobs. niiiice.
Fisker _has_ a facility in Pontiac, which is “Detroit” to anyone not from around here. they’ve been in place since late last year. they specifically located there in order to take advantage of skilled people who were available in the area. why pay to relocate automotive engineers across the country to somewhere with living costs 30-50% higher ? they are also structured such that most of their engineering is contracted rather than part of Fisker. same with assembly of the Karma with Valmet in Finland.
Faygo is exactly right, the Fisker facility is on South Blvd in Pontiac, right behind the GM Centerpoint complex. Peugeot has an office in Southfield, MI…Porsche has an office in Troy, MI and even FIAT, before they bought Chrysler had an office in Farmington Hills, MI. Detroit proper is a nearly dead city with less than 800,000 inhabitants but just one of the surrounding suburban counties, Oakland County, has over 3 million inhabitants. While Detroit city itself may not be automotive mecca, the Detroit metropolitan area still has a lot of supplier and R&D talent that drives many an automaker to have R&D facilities here, even some that do not sell cars in the U.S. such as Peugeot and until recently, FIAT.
I’ve worked with many an upstart automaker and most of them have or will fail when they get to the testing and validation stage. Most of them never seem to have imagined the enormous costs involved in meeting NHSTA, EPA, DOT and FMVSS rules and regulations which can add tens of millions of dollars to a program. All of these automakers are well intentioned but most of them are simply under-capitalized.
As for the article citing Chery and Tata? Wait until they have to pass German TUV rules, EU rules or DOT rules…once they have to engineer safety into their cars, most of their cost advantage will be gone and even they know that-they’ve publicly said as such that once they get to Europe and NA, their prices will have to rise to a point of competing with the major manufacturers…Would you buy a $11,000 Chery or a $13,000 Yaris? A couple of years ago, Tata was running all over metro Detroit and Europe ‘demanding’ someone sell them a $10 airbag. How would you like to trust your safety to a $10 airbag? Yes, Tata, Chery and other upstart automakers in Asia are indeed changing the marketplace, but not in a manner in which any automaker will make money…and for KPCB to cite Google is a hoot-Google sells air-they don’t make a product, they make a service with virtually zero overhead compared to the car industry.
While the article may accurately reflect a lot of conventional wisdom around the globe and sure seems to be a lot of the public’s sentiment right now, I just find it lacking in research and above all proof of results. How many of these upstart automakers have sold more than 100,000 vehicles in the EU or NA-none. While I too love to see the little guy, the upstart do well and it is KPCG’s role to spot the trends before they become the reality, most of these upstart companies, especially the Silicon-Vally based ones are simply under-capitalized. When a Silicon Valley automaker outsells the Taurus, the Malibu, the Camry, Accord, Sonata or even the poor-selling LX/LD twins, I’ll eat my hat.
kaleun :
September 19th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Once people in Michigan realize that you need to work hard to make much money they will attract new companies… oh wait, that would require getting rid of unions… so it wouldn’t work in Michigan then and they will depend on our tax money forever…
Hey, you’ve lived (and continue to live) off Michigan taxpayers’ money. Michigan is (and has been damned near forever) what’s called a “donor State.”
For the past twenty-plus years, Michigan has only received an average of $0.81 for every dollar we Michigan taxpayers have sent to D.C. Link
So, hate unions if you want to. Hate Michigan if you want to. But how about buying your own damned stops signs and paying for your own schools?
Conspiracy buffs love to spin this yarn about poor Tucker being forced out of business by sinister forces in the established automobile industry. The movie was a story well told but it was a piece of fiction, not a documentary. The truth is that Tucker’s ambitions were much larger than his ability to deliver and he was badly under capitalized.
The argument that Tucker was a success because modern cars have safety systems and so did the Tucker is extremely weak. His company was a failure by any definition and automotive safety did not start with Tucker and would have progressed to its current state even without his efforts.
Detroit as a city suffers from problems we cannot really discuss in a forum such as this. To tell you the truth, I’m not sure what forum would be appropriate, since some topics, today, cannot be expressed very adequately and openly: they are too dangerous, and few are up to the task. California is in a somewhat similar situation, although the details are, of course, different.
In order to derive an understanding anent the decline, it is necessary to have an historical perspective. But we are too provincial in our outlook, and we are under the spell of a kind of thinking that actually diminishes our capacity to compare and contrast. Think about what these places were prior to and up until the 40s and 50s. Think about who was in charge, what was being produced, the characteristics of the general citizenry and their attitudes–political, economic, and otherwise. Now, contrast all these things hitherto with what is current. It is the only way to understand.
The article is not about Detroit or Michigan i.e. the city or state. Its about those zombie car companies from Detroit. And their failed business model which includes everything observed here in such great detail. High and rising cost of production of lower quality product. (rising long term – healthcare, taxes, etc) Being chased out of each niche by higher quality, lower cost foreign product.
As has been said here, in the long run if costs are higher then you lose.
The article is not saying that a handful of non-Detroit but still made in USA startups will dominate one day. They merely point to some that might make money.
Detroit as a city suffers from problems we cannot really discuss in a forum such as this. To tell you the truth, I’m not sure what forum would be appropriate, since some topics, today, cannot be expressed very adequately and openly: they are too dangerous, and few are up to the task. California is in a somewhat similar situation, although the details are, of course, different.
In order to derive an understanding anent the decline, it is necessary to have an historical perspective. But we are too provincial in our outlook, and we are under the spell of a kind of thinking that actually diminishes our capacity to compare and contrast. Think about what these places were prior to and up until the 40s and 50s. Think about who was in charge, what was being produced, the characteristics of the general citizenry and their attitudes–political, economic, and otherwise. Now, contrast all these things hitherto with what is current. It is the only way to understand.
Translation: The blacks have ruined Detroit and the Mexicans (aka ‘the details’) are ruining California. If you’re going to make these kinds of assertions, you could at least have the balls to come out and actually say it.
So, hate unions if you want to. Hate Michigan if you want to. But how about buying your own damned stops signs and paying for your own schools?
Amen!
zaitcev : …
Impressive, and sad photos. I guess this would be a good place for the next installment of “Life after People”…what beautiful buildings. To see such irreplaceable architecture destroyed is very depressing, especially when you consider the catalyst for such decline.
Detroit’s reign was a long one, but the decline was not predestined. It was engineered by individual greed, accountants, cost cutters, and complacent workers. Had Detroit only had awakened early enough and plowed those ’90’s SUV profits back into their product, they would have at least had a chance to survive. I can’t blame the competition; the competitors simply exploited a weakness that was ignored and planted a long time ago. Most people here (a guess) were not old enough to remember the abysmal assembly quality of what rolled off the lines in the late 70’s.
That tax map is from 2004. Just a few things have changed since then.
Detroit’s root problem is that they built a city based on a large # of high paying / high benefit jobs that were low skilled.
They designed a pretty good defense system to keep it all local. I’m sure billions have been spent and thousands of careers / ideas were destroyed to avoid a breach in the defense system.
Imagine all the money/time spent over the years to brand non-Detroit companies/cars “crap” and to elect hundreds of state, local, federal officials that would be sympathetic to the cause.
Eventually they couldn’t hold the line and the jobs started to leak to southern states and other countries.
Did you grow up with a rich kid who lived in a HUGE house that was always perfect? Then 20 years later you drive by the house and it’s falling down because the dad lost his job as CEO of SuperCo? That’s Detroit…
The riches of Detroit were just too tempting…
The third world countries don’t have the stringent environmental controls either. Not to mention their standard of living.
And neither does Alabama, Mississippi, or the rest of the deep south. It is by far the poorest region of the USA, that’s why they outsource it to there if they can’t get away with doing it in Mexico or China.
And nothing much has changed on that tax map. Southern and interior West states get the most handouts, northeastern, industrial midwest, and coastal states lose the most money from what they send to Washington.
Pay no attention to the spin-meisters on Sand Hill Road. They only care about one thing: Pumping up a company’s image and selling it to the public as fast as possible.
Here is THE question for Kleiner Perkins: What fraction of the countless companies you sold to the public over the past thirty years are still in business?
Nothing like a little Michigan bashing to stir the pot on a weekend edition of TTAC.
I spent my summer vacation in Michigan this year, mainly because of conference was scheduled during that time. Man, it was a refreshing change from Texas.
Most of the Michigan economy is now located in towns outside of Detroit. It has been for a couple of decades. The people I met were mainly hardworking folks just like myself, who show up to work on time, do their work as they are instructed to do and pay their taxes. The work ethic was alive and well as far as I could tell.
What I didn’t see is the embodiment of all that is wrong with America. I also didn’t see all the bile and bitterness towards the rest of America that many in this great country have directed towards Michigan.
I did see an old-school mature manufacturing based economy that may or may not have a chance to prosper in this century.
God Bless the folks in the Great Lakes Region. I wish them well.
And nothing much has changed on that tax map. Southern and interior West states get the most handouts, northeastern, industrial midwest, and coastal states lose the most money from what they send to Washington.
Sorry to burst you guys’ little bubble about those tax maps, but you have it all wrong. It’s a shame that what passes for critical thinking nowadays is that the government takes money from California and just hands it over to people in New Mexico. Take a look at this map. It’s a map of Federal land ownership as a percentage of each state. There are also maps out there that have military bases by state (take a wild guess as to where they are geographically concentrated). When the government sends $X million to the ‘subsidized states’, then it means that the government is paying for government land and assets in those states, not that it goes directly into the hands of welfare queens. Naturally, non-coastal states have cheaper land (for military bases) and lower labor costs, so those states will almost always “take in” more Federal dollars, even though it’s actually the government paying itself. The per state tax allocation maps don’t adjust for Federal money going to Federal installations. There is some money that goes to the actual states, but let’s adjust each state to remove Federal dollars spent, and I’m sure the “donor states” map would be entirely different. I live in Texas if it makes any difference.
Detrit Todd: EVERY state receives less $ from D.C. than they pay. the difference pays for military, NASA,… all kinds of things where everyone benefits from (somewhat).
I pay in WI for my own schools with my property tax. what are you talking about? no one from Michigan pays for our schools? Our stop signs are paid by the city/property tax.
The unions thrived whne they had a mnonoply on work… at the time whne the iron curtain blocked china, Eastern europe etc. from participating on production for the West. now their monopoly vanishes and the industries go bankrupt because unions still act like they have the monopoly.
Only where work can’t easily be outsourced to other countries (teachers, construction) unions still are able to abuse their monopoly at the expense of everyone else.
I don’t know how it is in Michigan… but here on government jobs the union wages for construction workers are in the $ 30 – $ 40+ range plus fringe benefits. that makes construction more expensive and the $7-McDonalds employee has to pay that with his taxes. How is that fair? (except for the lucky ones with union jobs, of course). Same for teachers that are all summer off while I pay them.
All union run countries (North Korea, Kuba USSR) don’t really have a high standard of living on average. Coincidentally the Detroit pictures linked above look exactly as the pictures of the communist cities. Coincidence?
Reality = nothing lasts forever:
Not car companies
Not makes or models
Not cities
Detroit must not die, but it did anyway, and it is nobody but their own fault, the arrogant onetime big 3, two of whom went broke in shame, and the third is barely holding on, benefiting from the loyalty of the buyers that have abandoned the other two domestics, some on principle, and are not willing to buy a far superior Import.
All union run countries (North Korea, Kuba USSR)
What the hell are you talking about? Unions are illegal in all those countries. Totalitarian governments HATE labor unions. They either bust them or nationalize them (but I repeat myself).
Same for teachers that are all summer off while I pay them.
Teachers only get paid for nine months of work, it’s why they have lower salaries than just about everyone else with comparable education. And they spend that summer either teaching summer school or working some s**t job if they’re supporting a family.
Detrit Todd: EVERY state receives less $ from D.C. than they pay.
That is patently false. Obviously, you did not bother to click on the link I provided.
The old adage about arguing with an idiot comes to mind….
lw :
September 20th, 2009 at 10:12 am
That tax map is from 2004. Just a few things have changed since then.
True. Michigan has been in an economic depression since about mid-2005. However, Michigan is still only receiving about $0.86 for every dollar we put in to the Federal kitty.
Contact Senators Stabenow and Levin. They’ll tell you they are catching hell as to exactly why we are still so charitable to the rest of the country when our money is sorely need here at home.
As for military bases, California has quite a lot. There’s San Diego Naval Base, Oakland Army Base, Camp Pendleton, Ford Ord…etc. Still doesn’t get it’s money back.
Same for Virginia, we have more military installations per capita than any other state but are still a donor state.
forditude : Translation: The blacks have ruined Detroit and the Mexicans (aka ‘the details’) are ruining California. If you’re going to make these kinds of assertions, you could at least have the balls to come out and actually say it.
You are superficial to my meaning, but I understand why. It is not simply a black and/or Hispanic thing, but runs much deeper and into the core of what was once a more intelligent polity. I’m reminded of a comment made by a humanities professor, Paul Gottfried, who described one of his classes: “only three of 30 students had heard of Julius Caesar. None of the 30 had read a historical narrative “before having been forced to take my course.” But then: “I asked whether my students knew which group had been the most persecuted: women, gays, or blacks. A lively debate followed full of varied claims to victimhood.” This was nothing new, and well described by Chicago University professor Allan Bloom in his (in)famous book.
So, it is just not “blacks and Hispanics,” as you infer from my words. No, the problem goes much much deeper.
As far as Detroit the car manufacturing entity goes, their quandary is not inconsistent with the new American democratic equality that, to play on the example above, manifested in a kind of universal education–an education that tried to educate those who probably had no business going to college, and, because of that, the curriculum was necessarily degraded, simplified, and became less “education” but more social service. The car makers, too, abandoned any pretense of quality…like the academy, it was all flashy veneer, but, underneath, it did no one any good, and no one really wanted it.
BDB Teachers only get paid for nine months of work, it’s why they have lower salaries than just about everyone else with comparable education.
You must not live in Michigan. Our teachers are very well paid, one of the reasons (a much bigger one is our inefficient number of school districts and therefore administrators) why our state is essentially bankrupt.
I don’t have a problem with GOOD teachers getting good pay. The problem is a government/union model of rewarding seniority and not performance.
I just don’t see the Fiskers and Teslas of the world being anything other than niche manufacturers.
Can the Detroit 3 be competitive? In theory, yes. Without better management and changed attitudes, no.
The city of Detroit and the “domestic” auto industry are not the same thing, but their fates are certainly intertwined. As the Big 3 lost its oligopoly power and the UAW lost its monopoly power, the city participated in the decline. The city’s advantages were overpowered by adverse macroeconomic factors.
The city’s decline was accelerated by adverse social and microeconomic factors. It became unattractive to middle-class families (of all races) as a place to work, live and raise kids. Those who could, left. Retailers and service providers followed, and the downward spiral fed on itself.
Can the pattern be reversed? Yes, if land and labor get cheap enough to draw business capital and government policies stop punishing investors.
They’re half-right. We’ve got a severely contacted market and the American standard of living is painfully returning to equilibrium with the rest of the world. Right now, all the American car companies are living on borrowed time in the hopes that easy credit returns before the cash pile or public patience runs out. This is not a time for new car companies. Electric cars seem like the next big thing until people figure out that battery technology isn’t going to advance quickly enough to keep up with the hype, and the depressed economy is going to keep gasoline prices contained for the near future.
Detroit Todd: you apparently miss the point… the federal government (as any government) always pays out less than tax is paid because it it self uses a fraction of tax for national things (defense..) and its own cost. when is Michigan donating back the $ 100+ billion the car makers received then?
If you get $ 0.81 for every $ you pay in tax you are lucky. With 15% unemployment rate you probably get more federal wellfare money (section 8, unemployment etc.) than most other states.
Of course anyone who disagrees with unions is an idiot. Stalin even had camps for such idiots.
Silicon Valley believes itself different from Detroit. From anywhere, really, In fact, they’re masters of the friggin’ universe!
LOL…this is SO true. I used to work for a homebuilder doing business in that area, and while any percentage of customers is going to be difficult to deal with, that was the overwhelming majority in that area. These folks were, by and large, the biggest bunch of self-important asshats who I have ever encountered.
And, no, it wasn’t an “entitlement” mentality – these were people making ludicrous amounts of money – it was a “you’re going to give me a better deal because I am superior to you” mentality. One guy actually told me that in those exact words.
The only thing that kept me from telling him off was the amusing thought that he was buying a house 500 square feet smaller than mine, and paying three times as much as I did.
The real shame of it was that because the people in this market were so horrid to deal with, the company put its best hands in to deal with them. And one by one, they got fired because some douchebag complained to the right people over nothing. I transferred out before someone could do me that way.
I hate to wish ill on people, but it tickles me pink to think of all these morons who insisted on doing their mortgages with 5% down being a few hundred grand upside now. How’s that superior intelligence working out for ya now, buddy?
We can laugh at Detroit all we want, but at least they’re average folks, not average folks who think they’re super-average. In fact, if one thing was worse than working with some Ernst Stavro Blofeld wannabe, it was trying to get a house for teachers, nurses, or skilled industrial workers. These people, who “served” the tech demigods, had to live an hour or more away.
kaleun :
September 20th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Detroit Todd: you apparently miss the point…
Again, you have not clicked the link I provided. If you had, it would show you that certain states (Mississippi, for example), receive much, much more back from the Feds than they pay in.
You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
when is Michigan donating back the $ 100+ billion the car makers received then?
The $100 billion you speak of is a miniscule drop in a gigantic bucket compared to the difference between what Michigan has provided to the Federal Government versus what it has received back.
When are Mississippi, South Carolina, Alabama, etc. (notice a pattern there?) going to repay us for their infrastruture, schools, etc.?
Earth to posters…Which “Detroit” are some of the armchair generals on here referring to?
-City of Detroit
-Metropolitan Detroit
-SE Michigan
-Detroit (The Auto Industry)
Choose one!
AND in typical fashion people in the media and armchair bloggers will see a Detroit’s abandoned train station or the dilapidated Packard complex to judge an entire region.
Mass manufacturing will never return to Michigan again. Is this a good thing??? That is for you to decide. The good thing about losing manufacturing in Michigan is that we were left with an excellent engineering and R/D base that cannot be duplicated elsewhere. That is why all automakers will continue to have testing, design, and engineering centers in SE Michigan and not elsewhere….that will continue well into the 2st century.
Other spinoffs have occurred due to SE Michigan’s engineering strengths. We are seeing a massive buildup of defense contractors moving in along the Mound Road corridor. They have chosen the location because it is affordable and there is an influx of highly-skilled engineers to be had.
I have said this before and I will say it again and again. Manufacturing in the South is a temporary thing. It won’t last as long as the upper Midwest had it. How can the South compete with cheap, yet high-quality Mexican labor? They can’t and they won’t.
With 15% unemployment rate you probably get more federal wellfare money (section 8, unemployment etc.) than most other states.
The USSR outlawed labor unions.
The hardcore anti-union people on here might want to ask themselves why labor unions are often the first thing totalitarian governments bust when they come into power.
Sorry, quoted the wrong part of his response.
Anyway, I was also going to point out that the poorest states are in the deep South and Appalachia (West Virginia, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Mississippi) and therefore receive the most money for TANF (“welfare”) and Section 8.
You might want to take a look at this list of states by income:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_the_United_States_of_America_by_income#States_ranked_by_personal_per_capita_income
Count the number of “blue” states in the top ten. Now count the number of “blue” states in the bottom ten. See a pattern?
BDB:
the totalitarian countries claim to be run by the workers and all production capital belongs to the people/workers/government. The communist party (claims to) represent the workers and with that a union as separate organization is obsolete. In most communist countries there are unions. Well, they are run by the communist party more or less. and being a member is kind of mandatory (unless you want trouble). With that, communists kind of are extreme unions. Especially in the USA, where the law requires that an employee MUST be a union member when they fall into a certain category (i.e. the GM assembly line worker has no choice and membership is mandatory for assembly workers once the workers voted to have unions.. even the ones who voted against unions etc.)
I grew up in Communist East Germany, so don’t tell me what Communism is in reality. It’s not what the manifest tells you. For some odd reason all those union/communism friends in the West never bothered to move to any of the communist countries, but chose to stay in the free market countries to enjoy the benefits of the free world, while telling us that communism/unions is so good :-)
Even the Nazis in Germany had an official union that organized vacations and represented worker’s rights etc. (Kraft durch Freude). So your argument that unions don’t exist in totalitarian regimes is BS. They are part of the pillar that stabilizes those regimes by pretending to do good.
Well, they are run by the communist party more or less.
Try “more”. Also, strieks are illegal, and so is collective bargaining. Which means they are “unions” in name only.
Even the Nazis in Germany had an official union that organized vacations and represented worker’s rights etc.
Again, they couldn’t go on strike. They couldn’t bargain for anything. They did what they were dictated to by the government, who were in cahoots with the big industrialists. “Union”, my ass.
My comment is awaiting moderation for a badly placed word, so let me give you shorter version in the meantime:
The “labor unions” in Nazi Germany were rubber stamps for what the Party told them to do. They couldn’t strike (well they could try, but they’d be sent to a concentration camp). They couldn’t collectively bargain. Same with the Communist “unions”. Comparing their “unions” to the UAW is like comparing the Reichstag in the ’30s to the British House of Commons.
BDB :
September 20th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Same with the Communist “unions”. Comparing their “unions” to the UAW is like comparing the Reichstag in the ’30s to the British House of Commons.
+ 100 for that one.
communism is derived from union ideas:
– capitalists (factory owners) = evil that need to give up more money to the workers (or the factories are given to the workers in communism)
– workers should get paid based on their needs (not based on their work or education)
and in the end some union (communist party) secretary has the power and exploits his fellows, like in capitalism. Ever read the book or seen the movie “Animal Farm” by George Orwell?
The only thing I can imagine being more ridiculous than someone thinking Detroit could make a comeback, is someone thinking they could start a new car company in America. If something new does come to the market it’ll be from China or India. They certainly won’t be based in California, this is the only state in America that could be envious of Michigan’s financial situation. Michigan’s automakers may be bankrupt, but Cali’s entire F’ing government is bankrupt. Pot calling the kettle black.
joe_thousandaire
actually WI has more debt per capita than CA. And governor Doyle has nothing better to do than to come up with more ideas to spend money…
this might apply to more US states. I’m not an expert, but it is possible that CA has stronger regulations in how much debt the state can be. WI just has laxer regulations.
but I agree, no new car makers from NA. At least no mass producers. On the other hand, with the $ 100 billion we gave GM and Chrysler one could have started a brand new mass producing car company :-)
For some odd reason all those union/communism friends in the West never bothered to move to any of the communist countries, but chose to stay in the free market countries to enjoy the benefits of the free world, while telling us that communism/unions is so good
Cause neither of the communist countries have been following the real Marxism.
That’s what every single one of them would tell you when asked this very question.
Marxism should be treated as cancer.
It will spread throughout the society if left untreated.
Schools and universities are terminal already.
Senate and congress are next. With the Supreme Court to follow thanks to the Marxist president.
unleashed :
September 21st, 2009 at 12:46 am
Marxism should be treated as cancer.
It will spread throughout the society if left untreated.
Schools and universities are terminal already.
Senate and congress are next. With the Supreme Court to follow thanks to the Marxist president.
It’s all a big liberal plot, right?
Please define “Marxist.”
kaleun :
September 20th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
communism is derived from union ideas:
…and Nazism was based in part on Darwinism. Shall we hang the Holocaust on poor old Charles? I think not.
There is a VAST ideological difference between workers organizing for a better deal and the government owning every last piece of property and means of production, wouldn’t you say?
Wow – how old is that Silicon Valley map? More than half of those tech companies are gone already.
…and Nazism was based in part on Darwinism.
A favourite talking point of Creationists, but actually, Plato was promoting a totalitarian state eugenics program 2,200 years before Darwin was born.
A lively discussion on Marxism/Communism and so on.
Recently I read a piece by Tyler Cowen on what an end of scarcity will look like. I mean, at some point most of our immediate needs will be satisfied, and the energy of thermonuclear reaction will be tamed, and then what? Won’t the economics look pretty much communist? Excluding only the trully rare things, the concept of ownership will become very weak. Things like money will become weak as well, but risk-taking will probably soar, since the economic punishment would be removed, and historical fame would remain the only thing still rare.
How this all related to manufacturing/autos – there are just too many auto companies around the world. Margins are thin, conventional ICE technology becoming commodittized. There is no scarcity in autos, in a world that isn’t post-scarcity yet.