Subaru’s first US-market continuously-variable transmission (CVT) was a major factor in the 2010 Outback’s recent two-star TTAC review. Not in the “one niggling fault” way either. Think more along the lines of the “metaphor for myriad brand betrayals” kind of dislike. Subaru’s vehicles are getting heavier, their interiors are becoming more plasticky-gimmicky and much of the driving fun once available in say, a stock Impreza, has gone the way of quirky styling and rugged functionality. And guess what? Subaru’s mainstream trend-encies look to be here to stay.
Automotive News [sub] reports that Subaru is considering offering CVTs across their US lineup in a bid to boost fuel efficiency. We are thinking about it, but we don’t have an actual plan about which models,” says Masashi Uemura, a rep for Subaru parent company Fuji Heavy Industries. The Forester and Impreza are rumored to be the next in line for the stepless transmission.
The irony of this decision is, of course, that CVTs seek to address a negative trend (namely, added weight) while amplifying one of that trend’s worst symptoms (namely dull driving experience). Had Subaru not up-sized and up-weighted every vehicle in its US lineup, its efficiency averages would not be the pressing problem they are now.
Sure, Subaru’s commitment to all wheel drive puts it at a disadvantage vis-a-vis FWD competitors, but the unconventional boxer engine-AWD drivetrain is also Subie’s raison d’brand. The happy side-effects of Subaru’s unique drivetrain consistency has been do-anything utility and a modicum of driving pleasure in every model. Subaru gleefully tore through Volvo and Saab’s market share through the 1990s on the back of these traits, carving out one of the most unique niches in the US market.
But Subaru’s success is sowing the seeds of its own undoing. Subaru’s sales have never been better, but they’re coming at the outset of a deliberate campaign of mainstream-oriented brand dilution. The current crop of squidgy scoobs benefit from their recent past of intense brand focus while gaining weight and styling gimmickry which broaden their appeal. For now. When memories of the last several generations of Subarus fade, the brand will be little more than a Buick for the bicoastal crowd (not to mention the lesser Rocky Mountain liberal).
Chasing the junior-Audi market holds a lot of promise, and Subaru’s market-beating sales growth seems to vindicate the approach. And though aging elements of Subaru’s well-cultivated base may appreciate the softer rides and quieter cabins, Subaru is doing little to maintain its appeal to new generations of buyers.
Subaru has already ceded the bottom of the AWD hatchback market to Suzuki’s SX4, giving ground in what was once the core of its brand. Better to consolidate and expand the niche than go all-out for a campaign of mainstream-oriented bland engineering.
The Subaru Justy was offered here with a CVT. Not many takers.
Make a FWD version to appeal to the fuel economy minded. Which is a good idea, considering the benefits of 2WD to a large section of this country. And keep it fun,
Going to CVTs is just an accident (sales wise) waiting to happen.
As a Subaru owner and member of multiple Subaru performance sites, I disagree with the premise here.
While many in the Subaru community are deriding the choice of transmissions, lest we forget what it is replacing: The venerable 4eat! This old transmission is NOT a performance transmission, and frankly does not offer much driving pleasure.
I disagree that this will be the end of Subaru, as most of the people buying 4eat’s will buy the CVT, and not notice the difference.
For the rest of us, they still make a manual in almost everything. In addition, with the Legacy, they did away with the 5MT for a standard 6MT for every Legacy model. This means that if you want a 170HP 4cyl Legacy with a stick, you get a 6MT. If you want a Legacy GT, you can ONLY get a 6MT. If you want a WRX or STI, clutch and stick is the only offered choice.
While many of us, myself included, wouldn’t be happy driving a CVT, the mainstream doesn’t know nor care. They just want an AWD car that handles reasonably well, which Subaru still offers.
For us performance-minded folk, there’s the WRX, STI, Legacy GT, all available with manual only. For those complaining that the new Legacy GT is too soft, it’s chassis is damn stiff, and the aftermarket will kick in to fix it for those who must have more. The new turbo location means VERY fast spool-up, and having driven it, it’s quick.(Forester XT is sadly 4eat only).
Lastly, even the Outback of the CVT hell TTAC reviewed previously is available with a 6MT. I would love to see the “Take 2” review on that.
EDIT: One further point that occurred to me, I’m having Deja-Vu. This exact debate ran when the new hatchback only STI came out for MY2008. “Everyone” said it was ugly, and “everyone” hated it. Now, the hatch STI is well accepted, as once people drove it, they saw it was bloody fast. Also, 2008 WRX too slow and too soft? They changed the turbo and stiffened the chassis for 2009. Bottom line, Don’t count Subaru out of the fun car category based on their volume seller.
This disappointments me more than the doings of any other brand. They are letting go of the great niche they had, and suiting up for war in the worlds of CamCords, Civics/Corollas, and CUVs. I think this will be a mistake, when their loyal buyers move on to the next brand, like they moved on from Volvo/Saab in the early ’90s. Now the question is, who will take over. If Suzuki is smart, they will jump at the chance.
I don’t quite understand why Subaru dropped FWD models to begin with. I had a FWD wagon in high school, and it was a great car. FWD models would allow them to shave a few grand off the price of certain models, more effectively competing against the more mainstream brands. Not to mention the weight loss and added fuel economy. I just hope they get their styling under control, the current Impreza is a yawn fest, and the new Legacy is downright hideous. I’d like to see a return to unique, yet conservative styling for Subaru, not just strange for the sake of being strange.
Eitan: While many in the Subaru community are deriding the choice of transmissions, lest we forget what it is replacing: The venerable 4eat!
No; the CVT is replacing a five-speed autobox in the Legacy/Outback.
Paul Niedermeyer : No, that would be incorrect.
5eat with planetary gear center differential is still available in the 3.6R (Both USDM Legacy and USDM Outback) as well as the JDM and EDM Legacy GT Wagon. Also, 5eat is available for JDM WRX STI.
The only car that the 5eat is no longer available on in the US is the Legacy GT, which goes from 2009 having 5eat/5mt/6mt options, to 2010 having only 6mt.
If you check the MY2009 Legacy/Outback vs 2010, the 4eat has been replaced by the CVT on the base, “Premium” and “Limited” 2.5L 4CYL non-turbo. 3.0R had 5eat in 2009, 3.6R has 5eat in 2010.
see http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/outback/36r/features-specs.html for specs on 3.6R
I remember when automatic transmissions first appeared. Everybody hated them, except customers. Now most cars don’t offer a standard transmission. Wonder if history will repeat itself? I think most folks will get used to CVT driving characteristics. My concerns center around reliability and repair cost.
Eitan, Thanks for the correction. I assumed the 5eat was used across the board for the Legacy/Outback.
i drove a nissan altima and mitsubishi lancer cvt and thought they were both POS. cars had no power and made the most noise the faster i drove. I will admit that when i found out the base 2010 legacy’s will replace auto with cvt I was scratching my head; however, I finally test drove a legacy with cvt today and i am very impressed with the car. in fact if i was choosing an entry/mid-level mid size car between altima, accord, camry, malibu, legacy, fusion, milan…whatever i’d choose between the malibu and the legacy. if you want awd it’s obviously the legacy but if you can get the 4 cyl malibu for a lot less and don’t need AWD i’d get the malibu.
Not to contrdict the guy who did the review of the Outback, or anyone else, but the reviews I’ve seen of this car have been pretty positive on the new Subie CVT. If anything, the two reviews I read (C/D and MT) were really negative on the manual version.
Maybe we need a second opinion here?
I also don’t agree that a CVT will necessarily kill any car in the marketplace. The Nissan Altima has one, and it’s a huge seller for Nissan (fifth best selling car in the country, in fact). Its unit works pretty seamlessly, IMHO. It’s certainly not like the horrid CVT in the old Ford Five Hundred.
@ Niedermeyer: I’m by no means a Subie fanatic, but if the target market here truly is the crunchy granola crowd, how are they THAT different than any other demographic? Their cars grow along with their waistlines and their families over time. Subaru is trying to give them a model to move up into, versus leaving them for Honda and Toyota to pick up.
If anything, I’d say the Legacy and Outback aren’t Subaru’s weakness at all. And the Forester is a great little SUV. I think it’s the Impreza, which I’ve never been “imprezzed” with, that is the achilles’ heel here.
But as a guy with a wife and two kids who just won’t stop growing, I definitely appreciate a reasonably sized car that delivers efficient performance. I always dug the Legacy’s personality, but it was not right-sized for my brood. With more room, maybe I’ll put this one on my shopping list.
Who says they can’t have a conquest customer or two in addition to the guys who still have “Kerry/Edwards” stickers on the back of their cars?
superbadd…. the new impreza is basically the same as the outgoing legacy less 5-6 inches in length. i think the new impreza isn’t bad in the looks category and i am a little biased because i’m leasing an 09 2.5i base but the outgoing legacy is way better looking than my impreza. I think the new legacy is a great looking car but for ppl that don’t like change i can understand the majority of reactions when it comes to subaru’s consumerbase. I told my salesman today as long as subaru doesn’t try to follow honda, toyota, nissan completely subaru will be just fine but they need to be careful. my family was pro honda for the last 20 years but i hate the new 4cylinders from honda and i think subaru has a legitimate shot to take some business away from honda and toyota with the new legacy.
MBella :
September 8th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
This disappointments me more than the doings of any other brand. They are letting go of the great niche they had, and suiting up for war in the worlds of CamCords, Civics/Corollas, and CUVs.
Well, yeah…they want to stay in business, and that’s where the action is right now.
CVTs don’t have to be dull, but they have been either a) only installed in economy cars or b) tuned for fuel efficiency. Nissan’s CVTs, for example, actually offer a reasonably rewarding driving experience versus a conventional AT.
The other problem CVTs face is that enthusiasts don’t like them. They “feel” wrong; you don’t get the accelerative surge when changing gears that’s in the back of every gearhead’s mind. Instead, the tach just pins itself and the ratios change. By the numbers, this is usually faster, but again, it feels funny.
On the meat of this article. I can’t say I agree with it.
Subaru’s take rate on manual-equipped cars has never been very high and the people who passed them up did so for more conventional cars. Chasing niches does not make money unless you’re Ferrari (and even they have FIAT banking them). Subaru has to grow or die.
Had Subaru not up-sized and up-weighted every vehicle in its US lineup, its efficiency averages would not be the pressing problem they are now.
Did they have much of a choice? Until Subaru upsized its cars it was seen as a purveyor of rattle-doored cars that were cramped and expensive versus their competition. I assume they saw the writing on the wall (eg, that more and more cars will come with AWD) and decided to expand their niche rather than wait for Honda and Toyota to do to them what they had already done to Volvo and Saab: beat them on reliability and make their core virtue redundant.
It’d only take a few years of AWD Toyotas and Hondas to make Subaru about as relevant and as successful as ESC and airbag-equipped offerings Toyo/Hondas have made Volvo.
The current crop of squidgy scoobs benefit from their recent past of intense brand focus while gaining weight and styling gimmickry which broaden their appeal. For now. When memories of the last several generations of Subarus fade, the brand will be little more than a Buick for the bicoastal crowd (not to mention the lesser Rocky Mountain liberal).
Subaru can’t keep selling the same cars every year to the same group of Appalachian university professors, lesbian gardeners and Colin McRae intenders. It’s not a market that will expand, as Saab and Volvo found out when they started to bleed buyers. Niche buyers will hold onto their old rides for years (and buy used when they do buy) or change to something that better meets their needs (eg, a Toyota Highlander)
And though aging elements of Subaru’s well-cultivated base may appreciate the softer rides and quieter cabins, Subaru is doing little to maintain its appeal to new generations of buyers.
Subaru has already ceded the bottom of the AWD hatchback market to Suzuki’s SX4, giving ground in what was once the core of its brand. Better to consolidate and expand the niche than go all-out for a campaign of mainstream-oriented bland engineering.
This is true. They do need an entry level model, but that’s not a brand-destruction problem, it’s a vehicle-lineup one. And the SX4, nice as it is, isn’t selling precisely because Suzuki isn’t mainstream enough to make it work.
Subaru’s problem is more like Honda’s than Saab or Volvo’s. The former had to “grow up” or live life on the edge as it’s fan base aged; the latter two made unreliable cars and charged too much for them. What Honda has done, with reasonable success**, is keep buyers within the brand by improving (and growing) their existing cars while slotting new models in underneath them.
Think of it more as establishing a beach-head and working out from there, rather than brand dilution.
** except the loss of RSX at Acura
superbadd…. the new impreza is basically the same as the outgoing legacy less 5-6 inches in length. i think the new impreza isn’t bad in the looks category and i am a little biased because i’m leasing an 09 2.5i base but the outgoing legacy is way better looking than my impreza. I think the new legacy is a great looking car but for ppl that don’t like change i can understand the majority of reactions when it comes to subaru’s consumerbase. I told my salesman today as long as subaru doesn’t try to follow honda, toyota, nissan completely subaru will be just fine but they need to be careful. my family was pro honda for the last 20 years but i hate the new 4cylinders from honda and i think subaru has a legitimate shot to take some business away from honda and toyota with the new legacy. any person thats offended with the new legacy should consider a new impreza IMHO.
I am 120% behind Eitan’s comments here. He’s spot-on.
Now, as for Sajeev Mehta’s assertion that Subaru should “make a FWD version to appeal to the fuel economy minded,” wouldn’t that dilute the brand more than a CVT *ever* would?
…Not that Mr. Mehta was commenting on branding just then, but this site is consistently zeroing in on efforts that go against a company’s “brand,” or efforts which fail to exemplify clear branding-minded thought. Subaru’s “all of our friggin’ cars have all wheel drive” is probably one of the purest brand features in the car market today… and you’re suggesting that they dilute it with FWD nonsense? I respectfully disagree. Subaru practically *means* AWD to people; it is foolhardy to mess with that.
I could see Subaru going with AWD that isn’t full time, at least as an option. I love the AWD in my Impreza, but during the summer on the freeway it doesn’t seem to make sense. I wish I could turn it off when I don’t need it. I think The SX4 has the idea with their 3-mode option.
If you live in a place where AWD is beneficial (say, Asheville NC) you’ll find a lot of Subaru. When I was there, we had one: it was an OK car. Nothing special in the looks dept (Forrester), but overall OK. The ex still has it, I think. Not really my style…good car for lesbians, I’m told.
I agree with Sajeev that Subaru should go back to offering FWD versions of most of its vehicles. For many uses the extra weight of AWD is superfluous. That extra weight means degraded handling, degraded fuel economy, degraded acceleration, higher purchase prices and higher long term running costs. Personally I have no need for AWD, which is what has kept me out of Subaru showrooms for my multiple new vehicle purchases over these past two decades.
The small handful of Subaru fanatics consider this suggestion heresy, but the fact remains that Subaru is missing out on many potential customers thanks to dogmatic adherence to a silly made-up rule.
mpresley,
They don’t call them lesbarus for nothing :-) They are the sensible shoes of the automotive world.
That being said – only hot boys seem to drive WRXs.
I had a ’85 Subie FWD Legacy wagon that was simple, reliable, and bulletproof. It survived 1 ex wife and 1 teenager.
Even to this day, the times I’ve gone new car shopping – no matter what kind of car I was interested in – I always stop off at the local Subaru dealership in hopes that they will have something, anything that will fit the bill. Unfortunately, they’ve headed off into the marketing wilderness.
It’s almost like they don’t want me to buy…..
John Horner :
September 8th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
I agree with Sajeev that Subaru should go back to offering FWD versions of most of its vehicles. For many uses the extra weight of AWD is superfluous. That extra weight means degraded handling, degraded fuel economy, degraded acceleration, higher purchase prices and higher long term running costs. Personally I have no need for AWD, which is what has kept me out of Subaru showrooms for my multiple new vehicle purchases over these past two decades.
John Horner, I can accept the fact that you and many, many other people don’t *need* AWD.
I might not *need* AWD either, but damn it, I *want* badly enough to willingly accept the negatives that come along with it.
And guess what; there are *a lot* of people like me, and you need only look at Subaru’s sales numbers or point your browser over to NASIOC to see proof of that.
If you don’t *need* AWD (or don’t want it enough to accept the negative attributes that come along with it), then enjoy your Camry/Accord/Altima; it’s not like you don’t have enough choices. Us AWD guys on the other hand are limited in *our* choices, so let Subaru stay AWD-centric… for us.
psarhjinian :
September 8th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
It’d only take a few years of AWD Toyotas and Hondas to make Subaru about as relevant and as successful as ESC and airbag-equipped offerings Toyo/Hondas have made Volvo.
Please tell me you didn’t just imply that Honda’s or Toyota’s respective AWD systems can perform *even nearly* as well as Subaru’s.
You might want to look for some of the many head-to-head AWD system comparisons on YouTube; you’ll be disgusted at what other manufacturers try to pass off as “AWD.”
According to local (Toronto) people involved in Transmission Repair they say that the CVT can’t be repaired, it has to be replaced, so that really adds to the cost of owning a vehicle with a CVT Type Transmission, also vehicles with more than four gears, you can count a extra Thousand dollars for each gear above the Four! Interesting times eh?
Like ZOMG they’re replacing a crappy, slow, old 4 speed automatic with a lighter, more efficient, (potentially) more reliable, CVT. SUBARU IS DEAD TO ME!11!!
Subaru’s boxer engines makes adding AWD to their vehicles a no brainer. The longitudinal engine means that its cheap for Subaru to route power to the back wheels. Most FWD based cars with AWD as an option have to route power around at weird angles. Subaru’s drive train is very different than any other car maker, and it makes a huge difference for the better.
The question though is could Subaru sell more cars if they offered FWD? I think the answer is yes. As several posters stated they would buy a Subaru were it avail as FWD. I would be more inclined to get a Subaru if FWD was avail as I don’t need AWD or need to pay for it and the associated poorer fuel economy. I think the FWD sales would be incremental as anyone who wants the AWD is going to buy it and Subaru is well known as a producer of AWD vehicles. Why ignore the majority of the market whom don’t want AWD? Better to offer FWD versions and sell more vehicles. I don’t see the difference from a brand perspective, if you want a 4wd pickup up you buy one if not you buy the 2wd version. It doesn’t dilute the brands because they offer 2 & 4wd versions so why would it dilute Subaru’s?
One look at the monstrosity that is the new Legacy tells you all you’ll need to know about Subaru; they’ve been swallowed by Toyota and the absolute dullness and droning sameness has already set in.
It’s painful to watch a formerly unique carmaker succumb to the cookie cutter, corporate mandate, but succumb Subaru is doing.
Vorenus: I’m not suggesting that Subaru stop selling the configuration you like. I am suggesting that they appeal to a wider set of customers by also offering FWD versions.
How exactly does it hurt you if Subaru offers additional configurations?
No shortage of new Subaru’s when I look out the window where I am. The new Outback/Liberty/Legacy looks a lot better in-the-flesh.
The new ones will always be on our shopping list, and of course I’m a WRX STi fan.
Now get back into World Rallying you wimps!
“Subaru can’t keep selling the same cars every year to the same group of Appalachian university professors, lesbian gardeners and Colin McRae intenders.”
Hilariously accurate!
Somewhere, shopping at WHOLE FOODS while wearing shorts and Birkenstocks with dark socks enters the mix, too.
The question though is could Subaru sell more cars if they offered FWD? I think the answer is yes.
As we’ve learned with GM, adding sales does not equal more profit. Subaru is a niche brand and will only be moderately successful as a niche brand. They don’t have the money to run with the big boys. They have a niche that no one else really competes in. No one else is really going to come in and compete with them because the market isn’t that big and Subaru is very good at what they do.
John Horner :
September 8th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Vorenus: I’m not suggesting that Subaru stop selling the configuration you like. I am suggesting that they appeal to a wider set of customers by also offering FWD versions.
How exactly does it hurt you if Subaru offers additional configurations?
It’s not going to hurt me, Mr. Horner; it’s going to hurt the brand… the very brand Mr. Niedermayer mentions in the title of his post.
i think toyota would have something to say about subaru offering FWD in their cars for North America considering they have 16.5% ownership in fuji heavy industries (parent company of subaru)
in the next few years their will be more competition, maybe more consolidation (maybe gmc and buick will be gone by then). I wonder if toyota is thinking they’ll be able to buy out subaru (slowly buy percentage of company until it has a controlling interest)and swallow the company or they’ll make subaru a subsidiary. maybe subaru is feeling a little pressure to sink or swim. A part of me believes honda blew up their cars (not because they wanted to) to stay in relative competition with the other players and didn’t want to get left behind with the same ppl who buy their cars all the time so they can attract new buyers. no matter how you look at it or the more i think about it, brand/car loyalty could be a gift and a curse for an auto manufacturer
Bring back the XT!
Please tell me you didn’t just imply that Honda’s or Toyota’s respective AWD systems can perform *even nearly* as well as Subaru’s.
No, I implied that consumers don’t care. The distinctions of Haldex vs Quattro vs. SH-AWD vs. ATTESA is lost on the average consumer who’s just interested in getting out of a plowed-in parking spot. The AWD trump card is effectively worthless, or will be when it becomes a commodity technology. You may as well argue about the virtues of VANOS vs VTEC vs VVTL-i.
Subaru knows this, and it’s why they’re trying to branch out and get traction before someone steals their core customers.
I don’t believe they’re losing their appeal to “mainstream buyers” as the article would suggest. On the contrary, they have bucked the industry trend and increased their yoy sales.
I would like to point out that they have not one but numerous overlapping models that seem to compete with each other. Tribeca, Forester, Outback wagon, Impreza outback (ok, kinda of stretch). All very very similar.
I would suggest a AWD small pickup to replace the Baja and an AWD minivan to replace the Tribeca.
Somewhere, shopping at WHOLE FOODS while wearing shorts and Birkenstocks with dark socks enters the mix, too.
The worst part of the sentence is I’ve done all the above. Mind you, Whole Foods seems populated by Hot Yoga Moms these days.
One look at the monstrosity that is the new Legacy tells you all you’ll need to know about Subaru; they’ve been swallowed by Toyota and the absolute dullness and droning sameness has already set in.
Toyota holds a 10% stake in Subaru’s parent, which barely constitutes control. Blaming Toyota isn’t entirely fair because all they do is provide Subaru with ether production space or utilization. The bland-ification is Subaru’s own doing.
According to local (Toronto) people involved in Transmission Repair they say that the CVT can’t be repaired, it has to be replaced,
One reason for that is that there’s hardly anything that can do wrong with them. They’re two pulleys, a belt, a funky fluid and some software. Unlike an AT, there’s no point in spending hours diagnosing gears and valves and solenoids and sensors: either the belt is borked or it’s not.
The other reason is that old-school transmission guys have no experience with CVTs. Fear leads to anger, angler leads to hate, hate leads to suffering (when your mechanic fills your CVT with Dexron because they don’t know any better).
Statements such as “…the same group of Appalachian university professors, lesbian gardeners and Colin McRae intenders” are ridiculous. My wife-to-be and my dad each bought their first Subarus (GL wagons, 5-speed FWD and auto AWD, respectively) in 1986, and my sister-in-law and my brother started buying them in the ’90s; each is as far from any of those descriptions as possible (they all still drive Subarus). It’s true that my sister and her wife own a Forester, but they are urban types and have no garden.
Subaru may well succeed in its new direction but is willfully leaving behind a core group of drivers like me who prefer a vehicle that is relatively low to the ground, with a low center of gravity, but has great carrying capacity (plus a roof rack) and general usefulness, great outward visibility, and a supple suspension and AWD for fun driving even on dry roads – in short, the previous-generation Legacy wagon last offered in the US in 2007.
(MikeInCanada: I presume you were writing about a DL/GL-series wagon if it was an ‘85; the Legacy hadn’t yet been introduced.)
@ psar,
“Subaru can’t keep selling the same cars every year to the same group of Appalachian university professors, lesbian gardeners and Colin McRae intenders. It’s not a market that will expand…”
You’re kidding, right? I understand that page 669 of the Obamacare bill gives free healthcare for life to all profs and lesbians – regardless of lat/lon or avocation. So, those market segments will surely grow.
But there is a revelation about the soul of Subarus past – now feared lost – in your prose that I have quoted above.
And it is that – whether you are a university professor, a lesbian gardener or just a cog in the vast right-wing conspiracy – your time to wonder what would Colin McRea do would surely – someday – come.
And, regardless of whether you were driving a base Outback, a Forester full of potting soil or a WRX with Pirelli Sotto Zero snow tyres, your Subaru would handle whatever the road gods threw your way with precision, aplomb and a little bit of magic from Messrs. McRea and Burns as they watched from above.
The new Legacy and Outback? Not so much. Brand: diluted!
Statements such as “…the same group of Appalachian university professors, lesbian gardeners and Colin McRae intenders” are ridiculous
Hyperbole. My apologies on that one.
Subaru may well succeed in its new direction but is willfully leaving behind a core group of drivers
Are they? Where are those core buyers going to go? If they’re unhappy with Subaru’s direction, they’re certainly not going to Toyota or Mazda or whomever. I used to own a Saab and knew a lot of Saab owners and your point sounded similar. The problem is that these guys wanted Saab to keep making 900s and such, but really what they wanted was an impossible combination of the 900 and, oh, a Lexus LS430 or something, a car that couldn’t exist.
Subaru, similarly, can’t keep making cars like the old Forester (which was horribly cramped in the rear), the Impreza (which had the ambiance of a Corolla at a price premium) or the Legacy (which was nice, but too small and too expensive) and make money. At some point, they’d get beat out.
Subaru has advantages that Saab didn’t: the cars it makes are actually reliable and it’s parent company is actively interested in giving it new product. The cars aren’t the Subarus of old, but they’re as close as we can get and still have them as a viable company.
Re gottacook:
It was a DL! – I had Legacy on the brain from all the other posts.
It was a plain as could be, with dealer installed AC and that was about it.
It really was an Asian Volvo – take care of it and it just kept going.
Who makes cars like this anymore?
psarhjinian – You raise a good question: Where will the would-be Subaru loyalists go? Or, in the case of me and my wife: If the 1990 Legacy LS AWD wagon that my dad had bought new and given to us in ’98 hadn’t been stricken with a gasket leak in ’03 but had instead lasted until, say, this fall, where would we have gone? (As it was, we happily bought a new Indiana-built ’03 Legacy L SE 5-speed, which we considered a damn good value: about $19K plus tax, 0% financing, including the dual sunroof, 16″ alloys, fog lamps, and other SE package features.)
I dunno… perhaps we would have tried to buy a certified used ’07 Legacy wagon if any were available. I want to remain a Subaru person – I suppose I’ll have to continue to be one without being a candidate for any of their current or future offerings.
Two points two people raised in response to my comments:
1) Toyota may “only” control a minority of Subaru stock, but the new Legacy is being built in Indiana alongside Toyota product, and there is no way they’re not sharing resources and suppliers in a huge way.
2) Subaru may have been one of the few automakers to experience YoY sales gains, but that was with massive discounting (especially on heavily subsidized leasing), their old Legacy platform, and in consideration of the fact that their market share was absolutely tiny as it was.
Yes, a genuine 80’s song(!!!):
(Woah, it actually dates to 1977!)
1977 (Tim P. Ryan)
Lyrics By: Damaskas
Making Love in a Subaru
That’s what I wanna do with you
We can always feel around the steering wheel
There seems to be so much that we can do
An alibi that I will not allow
is when you tell me that you don’t know how
‘Cause it’s just like being in bed
all your clothing you must shed
You can stick ’em in the glove box for now
Don’t try to tell me it’s a sin
Just lie back, I’ll put a hickey on your chin
When you act this indiscreet, creating so much body heat
the tachometer will nearly start to spin
And now let us lie between the sheets
and thank heaven for reclining bucket seats
Don’t touch that, for goodness sake
you’ll release the parking brake
We’ll both start to roll down the street (yipes)
Now I’m gonna try to lock your door
Wait a minute, now I’m feeling sore
It’s not that I’m not able, something’s sticking in my navel
My gosh, it’s the four-on-the-floor (ouch)
Pigeons overhead flying high
Circling above us in the sky
Now I’m feeling ill-at-ease, my darling would you please
close the sunroof; something just fell in my eye (yuck)
You say that something’s pinching at your feet
Hey look what you just found, hey ain’t that neat
It’s my roach-clip and my bong
They’ve been missing for so long
All this time they must have been beneath the seat
Now you’re suffocating and I’m water-logged
All the windows are beginning to get fogged
So my dear with your consent
I’ll open up the flow-thru vent
I only hope it also isn’t clogged
There are other things that we can do
but only if you’re tired of getting scratched
Honk the horn real good
and you’ll wake the neighborhood
and they’ll have a marvelous view
Making Love in a Subaru, my friend
Making Love in a Subaru (dcufan)
(I know I’m weird..but I DO have a good memory!!)
-Rastus
The changes in the ’09 Forester came after exhaustive customer surveys, some lasting several years, that pointed out weaknesses in earlier Foresters such as lack of rear seat room. As Forester customers also said “don’t make it longer”. Subaru solved the problem that by raising and widening the body, and lengthing the wheelbase – the Forester’s length was virtually unchanged.
The same formula was applied to the Outback which, surprise, had most of the same weaknesses as the Forester. It too was raised and widened, but was made an inch shorter!
Granted, there are cheap aspects of Subaru interiors and an unfortunate proliferation of rattles in the new models.
Perhaps Subaru is, for now, improving their vehicles as transportation devices, rather than focusing on a single niche market.
I fail to see how offering a FWD option on Subarus would “damage the brand”. Did Jeep owners revolt because Cherokees could be bought as two or four wheel drive vehicles? Would Audi be a stronger brand today if all of its vehicles had the “Quatro” system?
The vast majority of Subaru buyers are not from a lunatic fringe, they are ordinary people for whom a particular Subaru fits theirneeds and wants better than competing offerings do.
It would be interesting to ask 1,000 random recent Subaru buyers this question: “Had Subaru also offered a FWD version of your vehicle, would you have still bought a Subaru? If not, what would you have purchased instead?”
I know three people now who are in late model Foresters. None of them like their cars. The one guy who really bitched at me about it calls his car “flacid” (it is, admittedly, an automatic). There could not possibly be a worse adjective for Subaru’s image as far as I’m concerned.
I see and understand that Subaru is trying to expand their appeal, but my concern is that they did so too quickly and with models that had just begun to find their audiences. I mean, the idea of a Subaru Forester hadn’t even really penetrated to many consumers by the time they neutered that pig and began fattening it up. All of their early customers were (suprisingly enough) completely in love with their ugly little wagons. Subaru simply does not sell that car anymore, despite the fact that other manufacturers have embraced those same traits (Element, Cube, xb, Soul, etc…) with some success.
I see a ton of SX4’s, the view from eastern NY (mid to south) is sales success…you know…traditional Subaru country. It seems like there’s more of these things on the road new than Mazda3’s, and that’s an accomplishment.
Ted, I test drove a Legacy 2.5i with the slushbox (special edition with Harmon Kardon stereo) and the thing was an absolute and out and out dog.
It literally felt like it had turbo lag when you mashed the throttle, but there was no power to be found anywhere at the end of the rainbow.
Well the 5 speed slushbox won’t meet current EC regs and so it had to be either CVT or a 7 speed, and that would’ve added too much cost and weight.
Better get used to CVT, because no car will meet the 2011 EC standards with a 4 speed slushbox. It will need to be at least 7 speed and I can’t see cars like a Cobalt or Sebring, let alone a Honda Fit being fitted with such an expensive transmission.
It will have to be either a CVT, a dual clutch manual, or a AMT gearbox that changes itself.
@ohsnapback,
There was a mainstream car company that didn’t offer massive discounts in the last two quarters?
@JohnHorner,
I am not sure Subaru can afford to offer FWD cars. Offering FWD-only means the expense of re-engineering (more than just dropping the x-fer case and shafts), building another assembly line, and requiring dealers to buy more models. Of course, the dealers will all buy FWD models (except in snowy states) and, then the brand dilution will be complete.
re. commoditization of AWD, ask the man who owns an early BMW xi and has to replace rear brake bads every 30k what the value of proprietary technology – and Subaru experience – in AWD systems is!
The current crop of squidgy scoobs benefit from their recent past of intense brand focus while gaining weight
Actually the 08+ Impreza is about the same or even lighter than the previous Imprezas depending on model. The enthusiasts made a big deal about the STI remaining around 3400# while the Evo bloated to 3600#. Not that that is everything, but the Impreza does remain much closer to the core Subaru values.
Toyota may “only” control a minority of Subaru stock, but the new Legacy is being built in Indiana alongside Toyota product, and there is no way they’re not sharing resources and suppliers in a huge way.
That doesn’t matter.
Sharing suppliers and assembly-line space is not like sharing platforms or design space. Subaru had excess capacity and Toyota is very, very good at operational effectiveness. It’s not like the current Legacy has anything at all from the Camry or Avensis in it’s bones.
Sharing stock is like spitting in your hand and shaking. Sharing suppliers and plant space is like shopping at the same grocery store.
Subaru may have been one of the few automakers to experience YoY sales gains, but that was with massive discounting (especially on heavily subsidized leasing), their old Legacy platform, and in consideration of the fact that their market share was absolutely tiny as it was.
Everybody did that, especially on EOL’ed models. Toyota would have licked your shoes if you were to take a Solara off their hands.
Go on the My Subaru Site
https://www.subaru.com/my-subaru/index.html
There is a picture of a scummy instrument cluster with 232,000 miles on it.
I have doubts a CVT could achieve that.
Hello, Joyce.
My Dear John letter to Subaru:
Dear Outback,
After bringing joy and love into my life for 30 plus years, I’m leaving you! You’ve let yourself go and now look like every other suburban jelly bean SUV in the 2010 line-up. You just don’t care about me. Maybe you can find other lovers but you’ll never find another me.
For the best,
J.C.