Stefan Jacoby has been the top dog at VW of America for over two years now, but he still has the fresh curiosity of a freshly arrived tourist. Sitting down with “Max” and the Washington Post to hump VWOA’s mass-market dreams, he offers a few thoughtful insights.
“Here, there is more cruising and long-distance driving. In Europe, there are more tiny roads and you drive more actively than in the United States,” explains the highly-paid executive. “We Germans drive and we are not drinking in the car. Americans have breakfast and coffee in the car. We have to adjust to this.” Mein Gott! With insights like this, Jacoby should have no problem breaking a million annual sales by 2018. All these things take is “a more user-friendly steering wheel and entertainment system, an accelerator and brake pedal that are farther apart, and larger cup holders.” Oh yeah, and not evaporating your brand in the process. Or, as VW exec Werner Schmidt once described the Americanization of the Mk1 Rabbit, “Malibuing” away the Euro-appeal that is the Volkswagen brand in this country.
And from this amazing insight came the …. Routan (!) —
Can’t wait for more new, ever larger, more food ready cars from VW. Perhaps they should buy the old Panther tooling from Ford for the new Passat?
When IS the last time someone at VW talked to a customer — say about service, reliability, parts?
And that perhaps many of us might like a more European car — than the fluff we’re still (mostly) getting from the US?
Keine hoffnung mehr fur VW!
Oh, schisse.
I guess I’d better snap up a manual Golf TDI wagon now, before VW follows everyone else off the notchback/CUV/van/SUV buffalo jump.
I knew it. I KNEW that VW-badged magicwagon was trouble.
Somebody should sit down and tell him the story of Jennifer Grey.
Did he mention reliability? Because proven reliability is what they’re going to need if they want to compete with Toyota and Honda. Cupholders are important, but having a place for the latte is only the beginning.
VW (and other German brands)in the US do have Euro appeal but the Euro-ness has always been carefully limited as not alienate US consumers. For example BMW have always retro-fitted cup holders (sometimes in amusing places) and even had different suspension setups for US bound cars so why would VW not also continue to cater to the particular wants of US drivers?
The fastest way to falling VW sales would to ignore the US & Euro regional market differences.
There’s nothing really wrong with a more friendly steering wheel, more cupholders and a few more inches of rear leg room. That’s entirely reasonable. Wider-space pedals might be a little condescending, but, well, ok.
VW’s real problem in North America isn’t cupholders, it’s that they charge premium dollars for a product that does not meet North American requirements for durability, nor offers compelling content or brand promise. In essence, they’re charging us more for less.
What’s worse is that their solution to the problem—other than the cupholders thing, I mean—is to offer decontented products to our market. We’ve seen the tip of this iceberk in the Canadian-market City Golf/Jetta and the Routan. The NMS is the next step, and it will be interesting to see how it’s played out. My bets are on VW continuing to plug it’s ears and hum real loud.
The fastest way to falling VW sales would to ignore the US & Euro regional market differences.
All of the German brands are niches in the US. VW seems to be the only one with grandiose dreams of conquering substantial market share.
That doesn’t seem realistic. There aren’t many American drivers who want a European car. The few who do don’t want them to become too Americanized or Japanese — they would have bought American or Japanese if their tastes ran along those lines.
I think that VW should accept their small role in the US market, and just go after the fencesitters who would like a German car but are scared of what could go wrong with them. Make them more reliable and provide better service, and they may get somewhere.
Don’t these people remember Fahrfegnuegen? This IS what VW is supposed to be about. VW should be there for those who want the german car driving experience at an affordable price. VW’s competition should be BMW, Benz and Audi. Its tagline should be “ours does what theirs does for a lot less.”
My first new car was an 85 GTI. A Honda Accord put up similar skidpad numbers and was more powerful, but it lacked the german feel that made the early GTI such a success.
If VW can turn in Honda-like reliability as well, then all the better. (They sure didn’t in 1985) But a car that drives like a Malibu with a repair record like a Durango is never going to make it.
VW gets my vote for the most clueless car company trying to sell vehicles in the US, this joker’s assessment only solidifies my belief. The fact that he’s been at it for two years is truly amazing.
Their reliability record stops me (and I’ll bet many others) cold from even considering their products so that’s where they need to start.
Next, they could put a 4 cyl gas engine in both the Golf and Jetta like every other car marketed in the US in those segments.
VW makes GM look like they know what they’re doing. And please, no more Phaetons. German engineering in the Routan, yeah sure.
VW has to source more parts/engineering in the US.
The strong Euro is killing them especially when they can’t charge the BMW/Merc premium against Toyota/Honda/Hyundai/Subaru.
Canadians would be most happy with the Euro spec VWs particularly diesels. Yet we get shipped the “Americanized” models.
One of the biggest manufacturers in the world yet VW flops around like a trout on a dock when it comes to this continent.
peteinsonj : “food ready cars”. Classic.
That pic above, by the way, is a early ’80s Rabbit GTI. Check the Recaros and the golf-ball shifter. I coveted that car when I was a kid. And it sold like hotcakes.
Ironically, that could well have been VW’s high water mark in our country.
VW’s real problem in North America isn’t cupholders, it’s that they charge premium dollars for a product that does not meet North American requirements for durability, nor offers compelling content or brand promise. In essence, they’re charging us more for less.
The biggest problem that VW has is dealing with a 1.48/1 exchange rate, when looked at as 1.48/1 it doesn’t seem to extreme, but that means a car they sell for $30k, they are only receiving 20k euro in return and have to figure out how to make it at below those costs. Let them start building in the US so that they can price competitively and then revisit the issue (don’t know how it will turn out). And yes they have a plant in mexico but most of those cars are made for mexico and central america.
Don’t these people remember Fahrfegnuegen? This IS what VW is supposed to be about. VW should be there for those who want the german car driving experience at an affordable price.
The problem is that more and more cars are duplicating this experience without VW’s price premium or reliability. A Mazda6, Accord or Fusion is just a set of front seats away from being better than the Passat at a Jetta price.
The reliability factor is crucial: if they cannot crack it, then not only will they play second-fiddle to Mazda, they’ll remain vulnerable when (not if, when) their competition gets traction in VW’s core markets.
Having driven many Euro cars, I can honestly say that none had a cup holder. Drivers also pulled to the side of the A3 to chat on their cells and never ate in their cars. Most did not smoke in the car either. To the German mind, nothing should distract you from driving.
That being said, we Americans like to eat a cheeseburger while driving with our knees, according to the F150 ad. And I distinctly remember C&D being rather enthusiastic about the 1999 Camaro “finally having a cupholder big enough to hold a 64 ounce Big Gulp”. So, in the interest of selling Americans cars centered around the cup holder, not the driver, one should reasonably expect VW to change the way it does things just for us. And destroy what makes a VW a VW (Routan not included).
psarhjinian :
October 7th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
VW’s real problem in North America isn’t cupholders, it’s that they charge premium dollars for a product that does not meet North American requirements for durability, nor offers compelling content or brand promise. In essence, they’re charging us more for less.
+100 for that.
Take the Passat, for example. Nice car, and yes, it’s sportier and better-handling than most of its family-sedan rivals, but it STARTS at 28 grand…and has vinyl seats!
That car would sell just fine at a premium of maybe a couple grand over, say, an Accord. But it sells for SIX GRAND more.
Who do these guys think they’re kidding?
“And from this amazing insight came the …. Routan (!) –”
Actually, the Routan is the exact opposite. Instead of an actual VW product done up in late-70s bordello chic, you get a non-VW product that’s been Bauhaused.
Which is a big improvement over the Chrysler version, appearance-wise.
“And from this amazing insight came the …. Routan (!) –”
Actually, the Routan is the exact opposite. Instead of an actual VW product done up in late-70s bordello chic, you get a non-VW product that’s been Bauhaused.
Which is a big improvement over the Chrysler version, appearance-wise.
The biggest problem that VW has is dealing with a 1.48/1 exchange rate
They build the bulk of their US models in Mexico. The exchange rate is not as much of an issue as is their low sales volumes.
The biggest problem that VW has is dealing with a 1.48/1 exchange rate
So explain why the Mexican and Brazilian-built models sell for a similar premium? Because currency exchange certainly isn’t a factor there. And no, it’s not like being European-built is a good thing for reliability: statistically, the German-sourced cars have been as bad or worse than their western-hemisphere competition.
VW’s cost problem is not the Euro exchange rate, it’s they tend towards costly designs and inefficient QA processes. Most European makes are like this: they haven’t really gotten their heads around low-cost/high-quality mass production to the extent that the Americans (yes, really) and Asians have.
dolorean23 :
October 7th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
So, in the interest of selling Americans cars centered around the cup holder, not the driver, one should reasonably expect VW to change the way it does things just for us. And destroy what makes a VW a VW (Routan not included).
They don’t need to do that…in fact, I’d say they don’t need to change ANYTHING about their designs, or design philosophy. They need to get their pricing under control. If BMW and Mercedes can make high-quality cars here, then so can VW.
psarhjinian :
October 7th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
The biggest problem that VW has is dealing with a 1.48/1 exchange rate
So explain why the Mexican and Brazilian-built models sell for a similar premium?
Not even in the same league as the German-made models. Jettas and Rabbits, which I think are made in Mexico and Brazil, are actually quite reasonably priced. It’s the other models, like the Passat and Touareg, that get ridiculous quickly.
Personally, I don’t see a reason why VWs shouldn’t sell for a premium price, given their superior driving characteristics (assuming, of course, the quality’s there). The premium price just needs to be lower, particularly for the move-up models.
Hey, that’s the same color interior as my ’94 Crown Vic LX I just bought. Oh baby! I just read the most spot-on description of those 90’s interiors on this very website: Trombone Case Red. The only thing I can say about it is it’s better than black. To me. There’s your qualifier.
rnc :
October 7th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
The biggest problem that VW has is dealing with a 1.48/1 exchange rate
—
I cannot agree.
If we look at Japanese brands, when Toyota/Honda started selling cars in the US 40 years ago, 1USD = 400JPY back then. Now it’s 1US = 100 JPY. So the Japanese has overcome 300% currency appreciation and still managed to conquest market shares.
Then, look at the Euro. 10 years ago, it was like 1USD=1.3Euro. And it’s barely 1USD=0.67Euro. The Euro only went up 100%. No biggie. They should focus on improving the CR scores instead.
So VW is taking a page out of the Bob Lutz book of awesome sales strategies?
“Our vehicles are absolutely perfect machines for serious drivers, but you hillbilly Americans don’t like them because you can’t eat your precious fried-egg pizzas while rolling down your flat, endless highways! Even worse, your diabetic elephant feet don’t like our infallible German-engineered distance between the brake and accelerator!”
@psarhjinian
“VW’s cost problem is not the Euro exchange rate, it’s they tend towards costly designs and inefficient QA processes. Most European makes are like this: they haven’t really gotten their heads around low-cost/high-quality mass production to the extent that the Americans (yes, really) and Asians have.”
Exactly. VW is still stuck in mass-production mode. Lean production as practised by the Japanese has made very little dent in VW’s psyche. They cannot make reliable cars cheaply because their QA is out of control or non-existent. Pure hubris on their part to want to rule the world from a log hut.
It’s “funny” to read the above rubbish from Jacoby, because not only doesn’t he get North America, it’s pure irony to realize that VW doesn’t really have a clue about modern production methods. I blame Piech for the 5 lousy quality Audis I bought starting in 1975. Then I got involved in a proper Quality Assurance program in the early nineties, finally “got it”, ditched the Audis, bought Japanese and have been happy since.
The editorial about Ford’s transmission factory shows that Ford does get it to a certain extent, and their relatively high quality shows. Making things well is not the same thing as designing them well, so I hope Ford concentrates on that next, as many readers here have had troublesome Fords even though Ford has had elements of QA and lean production for over 20 years.
Me thinks that if VW could build a car that doesn’t require significant dealer visits and/or repair bills for 100k+ miles (not so hard nowadays, even Chrysler can achieve this!), they would be vastly more popular in this country. They look great, drive great, have great materials quality, and thus can command a price premium. Except for the premium you pay every single time the damn CE light comes on, or your electronics develop bugs in them, etc. In value brands–which VW is (not a luxury brand–Americans demand long term durability and low maintenance costs. VW does not deliver.
Jacoby is probably wondering how VW can be mainstream everywhere but here.
How about a more friendly electrical system?
VW’s cost problem is not the Euro exchange rate, it’s they tend towards costly designs
But, these costly designs do have merit – they are just costly and unreliable.
If I asked most Americans would you rather have a reliable 1.4L turbo that got 32mpg and had some turbo lag, or a 1.4L turbo with a supercharger that got 36mpg but was less reliable? Most people, in the US, would say the reliable turbo. VW goes with the turbo/supercharged option.
I can respect that. I have more respect for VW selling 2.0T cars with great interiors and great handleing than GM who for years tried to sell pushrods and sh*tty interiors with horrible handleing.
Arrogant German Exec,
1. It is refreshing to hear an exec say something that’s actually on his mind instead of mindless PR-speak.
2. Your cars sell poorly here because they are unreliable and expensive. The Jetta competes with a Civic, not a Lexus like you think it does. Yet it’s priced like a mini Lexus.
3. Your country is small. About the size of one of our states. So of course you don’t have time to eat or drink on your three-minute commute to work. You should probably be bicycling at that point.
That pic of the 1st gen (Mk I, or Rabbit) GTi which was made in Pennsylvania has one of the two interior color schemes they had available.
That color combo looks horrid, enough so that when I bought mine in ’84 I actually backed out of one deal to get another with silver paint and with the dark blue interior w/red striping on the cloth and red piping on the panels. That interior was MUCH nicer to look at, even if the plastics were the same texture.
psarhjinian : The problem is that more and more cars are duplicating this experience without VW’s price premium or reliability. A Mazda6…is just a set of front seats away from being better than the Passat at a Jetta price. …
I spent a week in a new Mazda 6 last year. Believe me, it’ll take more than new seats to transform a 6 into a Passat. On the other hand, VW will never be a major player because Americans just don’t see any compelling reason to buy the brand. Turning VW into Chevy, or even Toyota is pointless. The Japanese (and now Koreans) have learned how to make reliable, smooth riding cars sporting larger cup holders, but absolutely no personality or driving character. It’s what Americans want, that much is true. So, while they’re ready for breakfast, VW will always be out to lunch–at least with most Americans, it seems.
Your country is small. About the size of one of our states. So of course you don’t have time to eat or drink on your three-minute commute to work. You should probably be bicycling at that point.
One of the things that struck me about driving through Germany, France, Switzerland and Italy: for people who ostensibly don’t eat on the run, the food and drink available at quickie gas stops is of an amazing quality. Especially the coffee. And the pre-made sandwiches. Oh, and the chocolate.
Sounds like he wants to continue building on the success of the Rabbit after it was “Americanized”.
psarhjinian :One of the things that struck me about driving through Germany, France, Switzerland and Italy: for people who ostensibly don’t eat on the run, the food and drink available at quickie gas stops is of an amazing quality. Especially the coffee. And the pre-made sandwiches. Oh, and the chocolate.
Great memory. It was like that in the early 70s when I was there. And, really, no one wants some guy woofing down a schnitzel and liter of Pfungstader Export blasting down the autobahn.
Yeah, you know why I didn’t buy the very-well-equipped and reasonably-priced Golf that I looked at in 2008?
Crap reliability reputation (reinforced by earlier VW-owning experiences in the 80s) and noisy, noisy, noisy 5-cylinder engine. Fix that before you start moving pedals further apart.
As for the pic accompanying this article: gad, that was an ugly interior, but I loved the first-gen GTIs anyway.
@psarhjinian: Quite right.
You’d think VW would understand American tastes after 60 years in the American market. They sound like GM to me.
I keep reading about VW lack of reliability but I’ve got to say I’ve never found it lacking. I’ve owned 5 vw’s and have had pretty good luck with them. Never stranded anywhere and outside of one head gasket at 120k miles (I drove that car to 190k)I’ve replaced nothing other than wear and tear items.
I’ve always bought them because they had a european feel without the european price. If they get rid of that there would be no point in going with VW.
At the very least they deserve the enthusiast’s praise for offering manual transmissions in all their cars with all their engines.
That interior looks a lot like that of my ’83 New Stanton GTI. Why, why, WHY did I sell that thing?
At the very least they deserve the enthusiast’s praise for offering manual transmissions in all their cars with all their engines.
Counterpoints: Passat V6. Touareg. AWD Tiguan. Several Audis.
Hyundai has manage to ‘figure it out’ in lightspeed compared to VW.
I’ve bought 3 cars in the last 5 years and two of them had no cupholders at all.
I don’t drink beverages in my cars and the one time I let someone else drink a coffee in the car he spilled half of it on the console.
I don’t need or want any damned cupholders!
Cupholders – bah!
I love my GTI for what it is, a sharp handling, fuel-efficient, small car – that can hold a bunch of stuff in the hatch.
I put up with VW’s “idiosyncrasies” for the way the thing drives. Nothing from Asia or North America feels quite like a German car – and I get that from VW without breaking the bank.
If VW becomes a poor-driving mush-mobile, then there will be no reason left to buy one.
-ted
dolorean23 wrote:
never ate in their cars. Most did not smoke in the car either.
Having been born and raised on the other side of the pond, I am now going to laugh so hard I will wet myself.
Now to the VW. Just improve their reliability (a lot), and stop turning them into horrid fleet-only worthy vehicles (I drive a rented Jetta now that makes most American cars’ handling feel precise), and customers will come.
AlexD : Canadians would be most happy with the Euro spec VWs particularly diesels. Yet we get shipped the “Americanized” models.
One of the biggest manufacturers in the world yet VW flops around like a trout on a dock when it comes to this continent.
You can thank MVSS regulations that are more closely homologated to US requirements for this. Almost every other market in the world will accept Euro spec or a minor variation thereof. Thankfully, we are much safer in Canada and the U.S. as demonstrated by our dramatically lower vehicle accident and fatality rates – note the dripping sarcasm.
To add insult to injury, the Canadian market is too small to develop Canada only variations of Euro spec models. Of course, that assumes that you have to amortize the vehicle development cost into the retail price, which has been debated at length by TTAC B&B.
A few months ago, there was rumblings of Ottawa embracing better trade relations with the Euro zone. We can only hope this may also include accepting vehicles that comply with Euro NCAP standards.
Bring us a car similar to the first edition GTI in the pic, and you’ll sell a ton of them. Volkswagen left its roots and moved way too far up market. They were like the cute girl who lived next door to you, back in high school, who was attainable and fun. Spunky.
Then, she leaves for college, comes back, the glasses are off, the attitude is in full, and you suddenly can’t afford her. And frankly, you couldn’t care less, because she’s grown into a high maintenance piece of work whose too sophisticated to have fun.
Who needs her?
And who needs VW?
And what the HELL was the deal with the Phaeton. I’m still scratching my head over that one.
Comon, you blame them for five POS Audis you bought? One, maybe two, but the rest are on you man.
I’ve owned 7 VWs and likely to own some more. Only one of them was a lemon. The last one (the Rabbit) was one of the better cars I owned.
For the $21k on the road price, I doubt you could find many other cars with the same features (i.e. lots), low NVH levels (it was practically silent in the cabin) with the same great drive.
What wasn’t good was the Americanization of the Golf. The 2.5 litre inline 5 had exactly one thing going for it – roll down the windows in a tunnel and mash the pedal to the floor. It had a great engine note under acceleration. Everything else about that engine was awful – it was a bit sluggish, it drank (cheap) gas like a six cylinder with four cylinder levels of performance, and its torque was just so-so when you wanted to overtake. I wanted the 2.0 TDI – couldn’t get it, or the 2.0 FSI – couldn’t get it for any price. Those engines rocked – they both sound better, go faster and use about half the fuel of the 2.5.
I don’t see the point in sedans. Stupidly small and totally unusable load space coupled with boring slabby three box side profile. You buy Euro because of their Euro-ness, and that means hatches. VW do great handling, good value hatchbacks.
I just hope that VW learnt from the late 90’s early 2000’s truly woeful reliability brought on by using the cheapest possible parts and never do that again. That decade long faux pas cost them more profit in warranty repairs and permanently lost customers than they’ll ever gain back from cheaping out here and there.
You buy Euro because of their Euro-ness, and that means hatches.
Not in the US, it doesn’t.
As of August, the Jetta was outselling all variants of the Golf by a ratio of 7 to 1 for the year. The Jetta is, by far, VW’s most popular vehicle in the US. http://media.vw.com/index.php?s=43&item=494
The Jetta is the bread-and-butter vehicle in the US. Their first priority should be to improve its design and QC so that anyone who might be inclined to want one doesn’t need to worry about the downsides of taking the risk.
Andrew van der Stock :
+1. Yep, the cultural divide: hatches in the US vs. Canada. Jetta sales are tops here too – I don’t have the breakdown of wagon vs. sedan info though. I suspect more sedans.
Droftarts :
Good explanation, but part of my gripe is simpler than that: I hate buying a VW product and then having to shell out another ~1K in parts and labour to put in an aftermarket suspension so that it handles the way it’s supposed to.
AlexD : Good explanation, but part of my gripe is simpler than that: I hate buying a VW product and then having to shell out another ~1K in parts and labour to put in an aftermarket suspension so that it handles the way it’s supposed to.
I feel your pain. Again, my answer is MVSS versus NCAP. I’m no expert, but my understanding is that side impact tests are conducted using rams set to different heights (lower ram for NCAP, higher ram for MVSS). The Germans design to their specs and modify to others. Of course to achieve the maximum number of “stars” (or benchmark du jour), the strongest part of the car has to be at the correct height to receive the ram. Therefore, the Euro specs ride at the height God intended, while N.A. specs appear to be ready for the Baja 500 right out of the box.
Others have commented on variations in standard parking curb heights (lower in Europe, higher in N.A.), but I prefer to believe this is an effect, rather than a cause. Of course, the truth is out there…
From my experience VW in America puts no stock in customer service. View my VW saga at:
http://www.reesphotos.com/VW/
FreedMike :
That pic above, by the way, is a early ’80s Rabbit GTI. Check the Recaros and the golf-ball shifter. I coveted that car when I was a kid. And it sold like hotcakes.
+1. The seats look excellent.
And props to the pre-paint taping guy on the line for a first rate masking job before they sprayed the interior.
Call me a physiologist but I love hearing about peoples point of views on each other. Hearing a German’s point of view on American is awesome. I wan’t to have the best of both worlds. A good handling, luxurious, involving car that makes eating and going fast easier. I hope the guy marries an American chick, not a soccer mom though. That might have gotten the U.S. the X6M. Not bad, but I’m looking for a comfortable smaller machine. An A4 perhaps.
Droftarts wrote:
N.A. specs appear to be ready for the Baja 500 right out of the box
For a pickup truck hitting you from the side. Considering the number of pickup trucks on the road, it makes sense.
I bought an 86 GTI back in 1988. Great car that I drove to 130k and sold to my nephew. He kept it for another few years.
Would I buy one now? I see no compelling reason. The Jetta Sportwagen is nice in a diesel. I like the CC but have no use for it. I saw my first Mk VI GTI the other day but couldn’t get a good look, the guy wouldn’t speed up!
Found it. VW has been carefully studying the US market for a while.
VW’s American Road Trip
TTAC spent a lot of electrons crucifying Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz for everything that was/is wrong with GM. Therefore, shouldn’t the big guns be aimed at Ferdinand Piech? Maybe he’s too enamored with conquering Porsche than worrying about VW’s quality.
“We Germans drive and we are not drinking in the car. Americans have breakfast and coffee in the car. We have to adjust to this… a more user-friendly steering wheel and entertainment system, an accelerator and brake pedal that are farther apart, and larger cup holders.”
Why don’t you just come out and say it? “Americans are much fatter and stupider than we originally thought, and our cars must reflect this.”
PG:
Why don’t you just come out and say it? “Americans are much fatter and stupider than we originally thought, and our cars must reflect this.”
After seeing many of said examples driving on the roads (over the years) during my daily commute, I concur with this statement…
for a product that does not meet North American requirements for durability,
Translation:
North American Requirements = those drivers/owners who are adept at drinking/eating/using every electronic gizmo known to man while driving, but haven’t a clue about proper maintenence (i.e. driving their cars beyond the recommended oil change interval), proper driving techniques (defensive driving, etiquette, etc) – while at the same time expecting their cars to have absolutely no problems whatsoever; and being the first to bitch, moan, complain and scream when a light bulb goes out (much less a malfunction due to driver neglect)….
etc. etc. etc….
I think that about covers the average North American Driver to a “T”…
(not a luxury brand–Americans demand long term durability and low maintenance costs. VW does not deliver.
See above…
Mikedt:
I keep reading about VW lack of reliability but I’ve got to say I’ve never found it lacking. I’ve owned 5 vw’s and have had pretty good luck with them. Never stranded anywhere and outside of one head gasket at 120k miles (I drove that car to 190k)I’ve replaced nothing other than wear and tear items.
That’s because you, Andrew and I have a clue about proper driving and vehicle maintenance (unlike the average North American). Here’s my resume:
NOTE: * = previous cars no longer owned by me
1975 VW Scirocco – 200,000 miles *
1977 Datsun 280z – 230,000 miles *
1987 VW Golf GT – 624,000 miles *
1997 VW Jetta – 303,000 miles
2003 VW Jetta 1.8T – 149,000 miles
1987 Chevy C-10 full-size 1/2 ton pickup- 86,000 miles
All vehicles except 2003 Jetta 1.8T have MANUAL transmissions – a slowly vanishing breed in North America – because I’m more preoccupied with driving and paying attention to the road instead of partaking in the many distracted driving techniques listed in my previous post…
That picture brings back memories. My mother bought an ’83 Rabbit (with the blue interior). As a kid that was a cool car. Even had a crank open sunroof, which was a bitch to open as I recall. Problem was the car was a first class shit box. In the shop more than the driveway. Finally my father had enough and replaced it with a domestic, Ford Taurus. Have to say they were 1000x happier with the Ford as it gave them half the problems…and those early Taurii were no peach. My parents haven’t even considered a Vee Dub since and happily drive Honda’s and Toyota’s.
What’s that tell you??? Yes, price makes a difference, cupholders maybe, but reliability is a big nut to crack. VW needs to build cars better than Honda and Toyota to win market share. They aren’t and thus failing outside of their fanboy market.
Vento97, sorry your reasoning doesn’t make sense. Driving not properly is not going to cause electrical glitches, and driving not properly with AT is not going to make it fail (unless you use the gas pedal as an on-and-off switch). Improper car maintenance? The only car neglect that a normal car owner can do is not change oil when it’s supposed to be and not maintain tire pressure at the right level. OK, not changing engine oil can make the engine fail, but it wouldn’t affect the transmission, the electrical system or other components.
I know a couple of guys that have VWs and put lots of miles on them without any issues (one of them commutes 100 miles to work one way every workday). I also know a guy who had a VW Jetta with lots of problems. With Jap cars the chance of a reliability problem is much less than with German cars – that’s proven. It has nothing to do with improper driving or maintenance.
@vento97 How exactly are we supposed to maintain all of those electronic components that fail on VWs with intolerable frequency relative to almost all other brands? And as for mechanical failures, it’s not necessarily that the owner wasn’t following the maintenance schedule; it was VW dealers themselves that weren’t maintaining the vehicles properly in many instances. Do-it-yourselfers seem to have a much better ownership experience. That’s a recipe for understandable snobbery among the relatively few happy VW owners who return to the brand again and again, but it’s not so good for VW if it wants to continue doing business in the US.
Pch101:
I think that VW should accept their small role in the US market, and just go after the fencesitters who would like a German car but are scared of what could go wrong with them. Make them more reliable and provide better service, and they may get somewhere.
As a former VW and current Honda owner, I agree completely. Get reliability and service in line, and price may not be as big a factor in sales. I almost bought a Passat, until I considered how an Accord beat it on reliability, service, and price/content. I liked how the Passat drove, but that wasn’t enough to overcome the Accord’s advantages. I also bought a Civic Si over a GTI for the same reasons.
I suspect that VW has the engineering talent to improve reliability (no more plastic water pump impellers, please), but improving service may be more difficult. Soliciting and valuing customer evaluations of dealerships seems a good place to start.
North American Requirements = those drivers/owners who are adept at drinking/eating/using every electronic gizmo known to man while driving, but haven’t a clue about proper maintenence (i.e. driving their cars beyond the recommended oil change interval), proper driving techniques (defensive driving, etiquette, etc)
Right. Talking on the phone causes VW’s to break down.
No, “North American requirements” means more annual mileage and more short trips, plus fewer fleet sales.
Americans need more reliable cars because they drive more, so the problems related to mileage will show up much earlier in the United States. At the same time, the European middle manager who gets a car as part of his job doesn’t need to worry about reliability when he gets to swap his company cars on a regular basis, while the American does have to worry because he gets stuck with the repair bills.
The difference between the Japanese (and now Korean) automakers and the Germans is that the former build with a US audience in mind, while the Europeans build for themselves and then reluctantly provide cupholders for their savage American clientele as a token concession. It’s no wonder that the Asians are doing well — they actually aim to please the customer, instead of taking the Detroit path of blaming them or the German path of ignoring them.
While agreeing with the critcisms of VW’s 5-cyl engine I’d still take the position that VW makes a much better car than the usual suspects. Nicer interiors by far, much better engines, cutting edge transmissions and well developed driving experiences. I’d have to admit though that I’m very partial to forced induction and hatchbacks, so I’m a natural fit for the brand. They have no base price competitive vehicles though, which, IMO is a significant psychological barrier to shoppers even when they plan on equalizing the value with options anyway.
I know a ton of VW owners, and don’t see poor reliability at all in the newer cars, even with high milages and minor accidents. My 96 VW on the other hand, just caught fire at 70mph on a shoulderless pkwy. Slap hazards, pour iced tea down the door to wet the plastics and pray for an exit so I can rip the battery leads out…thanks for that VW, it was a pleasure.
VW’s problem: prospective owners expect ToyoHondasan like maintenance schedules, maintenance costs, fuel requirements and reliability. Instead, VW provides upscale Euro brand (M-B, BMW, Audi) like maintenance schedules, maintenance costs, fuel requirements and reliability.
The upscale Euro buyer will put up with it even thinking it’s a “badge of honor” due to the prestige factor. VW owners generally won’t.
Signed,
Both a VW and BMW owner
Excuses, excuses…this is what this country has come down to. No wonder our standing in the world has diminished. We’ve gotten all wishy-washy, whiny, and soft. Common sense and personal responsibility have long since departed.
I’ve owned different makes and models, and they have all run reliably. In my opinion and experience (as a former aircraft mechanic in the Air Force, and former auto mechanic who is now an engineer), a car is as reliable as its owner.
It takes two to tango.
End of story.
If anyone makes a decision before taking the personal responsibility to do the proper research, then said individual should take the personal responsibility to deal with the repercussions of that decision.
Period.
“the softening of America continues….”
A friend of mine is the parts manager for a VW store in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. When I told him I was considering a new VW he stopped dead in his tracks and bluntly stated, “Go ahead, but don’t keep it a minute past 60K miles. You can’t afford the parts or service.”
That came from a Parts Manager, whose been with VW for 20+ years. Ya gotta love the honesty of friends.
Excuses, excuses
Right. So why do you keep making them on behalf of VW?
VW’s failure to meet the needs of the American consumer is its own fault. Nobody told VW to make vehicles with subpar reliability, that was VW’s choice and their choice alone to make.
The reality is that Toyota’s production method yields superior results, and companies such as VW have failed to adequately copy it. Toyota raised the bar, and neither the Americans nor the Germans were able to keep up.
Toyota’s Achilles heel is road feel. But given that not many people actually care about that, it’s not much of a sacrifice for the business.
I’ve owned different makes and models, and they have all run reliably. In my opinion and experience (as a former aircraft mechanic in the Air Force, and former auto mechanic who is now an engineer), a car is as reliable as its owner.
In other words, VW owners are by far the least reliable. I’m digging the logic.
My daily driver is a 1994 Miata that has yet to need a major repair or trouble me with even a minor electrical gremlin in 15 years of service. That ’02 Passat I bought for my wife, however? What a bowl of suck. Electrical problems were annoying, but when oil starting spewing because of a failed turbo seal I knew I wouldn’t be keeping the thing past the warranty. The ’05 Forester we replaced it with? Absolutely flawless to this day. Opinions and experiences vary. I guess what VW needs to do is more target marketing to the extremely mechanically inclined.
Electrical problems were annoying, but when oil starting spewing because of a failed turbo seal I knew I wouldn’t be keeping the thing past the warranty.
Blame the cupholders and your attitude. They disrupt the harmonic balance of the car, leading to bad vehicular karma. Obviously your fault.
Ironically, the Passat had better cupholders than our Forester.
Right. So why do you keep making them on behalf of VW?
And Datsun and Chevy… Or did you not read the list of vehicles I’ve owned. Let’s just be selective to strengthen your argument (or lack thereof).
I can’t help it others don’t do the proper research. I knew what I was getting into, accepted the challenge, and succeeded. I was quite aware of the strengths and weaknesses of each marque (especially VWs), so I used that as a learning experience to become a better car owner. If something goes wrong, deal with it and work to get it resolved instead of whining and complaining.
…the overly sensitive, hyper-defensive softening of America continues….
…as you might have guessed, I’m not politically correct…:)
Or particularly persuasive… :)
If something goes wrong, deal with it and work to get it resolved instead of whining and complaining.
Look at who is doing the whining and complaining: “this is what this country has come down to. No wonder our standing in the world has diminished.”
I don’t see the Toyota and Honda crowd complaining about VW’s, they’re just buying the cars that they prefer. The majority of them don’t feel the need to belong to some exclusive club of car martyrs.
as you might have guessed, I’m not politically correct
I do know that you’re factually incorrect. Electrical problems are usually symptomatic of bad design and/or parts quality, and have nothing to do with the driver.
That ‘02 Passat I bought for my wife, however? What a bowl of suck. Electrical problems were annoying, but when oil starting spewing because of a failed turbo seal I knew I wouldn’t be keeping the thing past the warranty.
You see what I mean about research? That’s precisely why I avoided the 99-02 models (my wife’s 2003 Passat is approaching 150,000 miles). I’ll bet your dealer used 5w-30 dino oil to service your car, didn’t they? I use Motul 8100 x-cess 5w-40 which is on the VW 502.00 approved oil specification
list. When I bought both 2003 1.8Ts, I specifically made sure that the dealer swapped the older J-series ignition coils for the latest ones that didn’t fail due to bean counter and supplier errors. I am also aware that after 1998 VW switched the clips holding the windows from metal to plastic, causing the windows to fall. It was corrected in the 2003 and later models.
I can go on and on, but that’s my point about research.
Oh, and one more thing – I buy my vehicles near the end of the production cycle (later model years) instead of the beginning. This desire by people to be the first kid on the block to own the latest and greatest puzzles me. Who in their right mind would volunteer to be a beta tester for the automotive industry?
People know all the details about their favorite electronic gizmo, pop culture icon, etc., but more often than not fail to sweat the details on what is only the 2nd most expensive purchase that will be made during a lifetime (behind home ownership).
If you don’t like VW’s – fine. I’m not going to lose any sleep over that in my lifetime. Drive whatever you want – just do the research – or don’t complain…
The end.
The Poindexters at Consumer Reports practically begged us to buy the Passat. And no dino oil. I changed it myself using the specified oil.
I’m glad we’ve finally reached a consensus. You’re doing a better job of explaining why anyone who does their research would steer clear of VW than I ever could.
I do know that you’re factually incorrect. Electrical problems are usually symptomatic of bad design and/or parts quality, and have nothing to do with the driver.
Factually incorrect. I see. Well please feel free to share your automotive knowledge with us. I’m up for learning new things…
When I said “it takes two to tango” I meant both the driver and the manufacturer.
But I’m thoroughly enjoying this exchange. Especially when it pushes one’s buttons and forces them to think outside their comfort zone…
I’m glad we’ve finally reached a consensus. You’re doing a better job of explaining why anyone who does their research would steer clear of VW than I ever could.
More than happy to help. Play it safe. And don’t stray out of your comfort zone. Avoid adversity as often as possible….
Not everyone is equipped to handle adversity…
Well please feel free to share your automotive knowledge with us.
I just did. Electrical problems are not caused by drinking coffee, using the phone or stop-and-go driving.
As an owner, there is really little or nothing that I can do to cause or prevent electrical problems. Unless I’m yanking out wires, dumping fluids where I shouldn’t or otherwise abusing the car to ridiculous extremes, those are going to be the results of failures at the manufacturer’s end. It’s pretty simple, really.
All cars are not equally reliable. They are not all equally well built or designed. The end.
Strippo:
Or particularly persuasive… :)
Well I must be, since I obviously persuaded you to avoid VWs…:)
Not everyone is equipped to handle adversity…
Adversity is my business. To go about it I need reliable transportation.
Well I must be, since I obviously persuaded you to avoid VWs…:)
Obviously you didn’t, but if you helped at least one person who didn’t already know to avoid VWs, then it has all been worthwhile.
PS – Now I know how Bugs Bunny felt. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045062/quotes
As an owner, there is really little or nothing that I can do to cause or prevent electrical problems.
Research before buying. Check the automotive forums pertaining to the brand you wish to buy. Check the history with TSBs, use more than one publication to do your research (Consumer reports is a good place to start, but it’s not the end-all and be-all because it relies on owner feedback – and it’s usually the squeakiest wheels who fill out and submit the surveys).
The end…
Factually incorrect. I see.
Does my 08 GTI require some electrical system maintaince that I’m not aware of? I’d really like to get out ahead of it, if that’s the case.
@jmo Learn to embrace adversity.
@jmo Learn to embrace adversity.
Now you’re catching on…:)
08 GTI – I know the 06s had an issue with their fuel pumps, so I would keep an eye on that…
Check out the forums at vwvortex.com
Other than that, so far, so good.
B.T.W. I would get the APR stage 1 software upgrade which boosts the hp/torque of your engine from 200/207 to 252/303. I did that for my 2003 Jetta 1.8T (from 180/172 to 215/247) and it feels like a new car again at 150,000 miles…
I have owned a 91 Jetta. Replaced a crap load rubber exhaust mounts and a few door handles. Otherwise, it made it to 120K miles.
Owned a 99.5 Jetta GLX. Loved it and no major issues. 72K Miles
Currently own a 2003 Jetta GLI VR6. Love it and no repairs so far. Just hit 82K miles.
I find that VW’s make interiors that are a wonderful place to sit and they drive the way I like.
That said, almost $30K for a GTI or GLI is a bit much. So unless they bring over the GTI R in time for my next purchase I will be looking at a Subaru Legacy GT instead (although I’m not sure about the new styling).
VW has lost the way and reliability had nothing to do with it in my case.
I didn’t realize that when the plastic impeller on my New Beetle fragged at 60k, it was because of something I failed to do during the scheduled maintenance at 105k; not really sure how that math is supposed to work. Oh well, the next owner got a metal aftermarket pump, so they must have done their research on my repairs, right? I thoroughly enjoy maintaining my vehicles, but I know a poor design when I see one, and I’d rather not deal with the results. Reading how the VW water pump failed with great regularity at 60k (and occasionally ate the common timing belt in the process) didn’t endear me to VW. Those kind of faults are what VW needs to chase down if they want to grow here.
vento97, maybe I’m missing something, but it sounds like you’re saying that a prospective owner should do some research before making a VW purchase, because some models and/or years are best avoided. That advice applies to every manufacturer, but the counterpoint being made by many is that if VW wants to improve their market share, they need to improve their reliability. I don’t see what makes that advice indicative of the “overly sensitive, hyper-defensive softening of America”. The fact that you felt the need to have a dealership address issues at purchase that were already covered by recalls (coil packs and window regulators) suggests that in addition to design faults, you were concerned about poor service from the dealer. Research notwithstanding, that’s quite an endorsement.
As I and many others have said, if VW wants to increase their market share in the U.S., they need to deal with reliability, service, and pricing. Expecting customers to pour through “i hit 2 crub and a fents” posts at the Vortex in order to divine the shortcomings of their VW options is not a path to market domination.
I am also aware that after 1998 VW switched the clips holding the windows from metal to plastic, causing the windows to fall. It was corrected in the 2003 and later models.
The rear left window on my ’03 Passat fell into the door twice. Both times Potamkin VW in Manhattan took for-freaking-ever to fix it.
Aside from that, though, I had zero problems with that car and I loved driving it (1.8t manual). When the lease ended I almost bought it, but decided that owning a VW out of warranty would probably not be a really great idea.
It’s too bad VW is bent on producing a Camry clone. They used to be interesting, different, fun cars. Passat W8 6-speed was a blast to drive but it was out of my price range. Now we have Jetrollas and Wabbits with that awful, heavy, thirsty 5-cyl and the Golf VI in US-guise also carries on with that lump of an engine, unless you want to pay $4000 more for the TDI.
That the 5-cyl 2.5 is not offered anywhere else in the world (aside from maybe Canada?) tells me enough about VW’s opinion of Americans as a fat, stupid people who hate driving.
vento97, maybe I’m missing something, but it sounds like you’re saying that a prospective owner should do some research before making a VW purchase, because some models and/or years are best avoided. That advice applies to every manufacturer,
That’s my point exactly – if you go back and read my posts again, that will become apparent…
Forty2 wrote:
That the 5-cyl 2.5 is not offered anywhere else in the world (aside from maybe Canada?) …
Yep we get the five-pot too :-(
VW reliability is an issue in the US ONLY! In Europe, VWs are considered top quality and reliability premium cars. Toyotas are still more reliable there than VWs, but VWs in the US have had a terrible reliab reputation.
Why the gap? A colleague here, with wife and 3 kids, bought a Passat wagon 6 cyl in 2001 ,has 105,000 miles and claims he only did the service, and only one minor repair (rear differential or sth) the whole time. When I mentioned how surprised i was to hear that, he mentioned that the Passat was built in GERMANY and not in Mexico as most US VWs are.