Ron: Is the new Chevy Cruze a rebranded Daewoo, or a genuinely novel GM product? I understand it will be assembled in the US.
Fritz Henderson: cruze is an all new vehicle developed as a true chevrolet. we will build the vehicle in our plant in lordstown, ohio.
Ron, that’s a great question, but you shouldn’t expect real answers from a GM livechat with Fritz Henderson. Yes, the Cruze was engineered in South Korea by Daewoo, but it’s not a developing-market-mobile with a bowtie like the first Cruze. And the Aveo. And the forthcoming Spark. It’s a global product, sold in different markets as the Daewoo Lacetti, the Holden Cruze and the Chevrolet Cruze. It’s even a pace car! But to answer your question, the major difference between the Daewoo pictured above and the US-market Cruze is engine options. Other than that… Dude, you’re getting a Daewoo!
Fritz has no time for uppercase letters!
______
But to answer your question, the major difference between the Daewoo pictured above and the US-market Cruze is engine options.
That might just be the Cruze’s saving grace. A six-speed auto and a direct-injection engine on a low priced compact car?
IMO, Not bad. On paper at least. We’ll have to wait to see the reality. Along with what the competition cooks up in the next few years.
I don’t see how engineering a world car in South Korea makes it a Daewoo, when it is built in Ohio.
The badge merely indicates the selling brand, or is it more than that? Where are the components sourced? Couldn’t the Koreans just as easily claim they’re getting a Chevy?
Oh – the safety pace car video was awesome.
Keep on choppin’
ajla :
October 9th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
That might just be the Cruze’s saving grace. A six-speed auto and a direct-injection engine on a low priced compact car?
—
Sonata is also going D-I. I would bet on Sonata > Cruze.
Henderson is either flat-out lying or completely oblivious to the Cruze’s origins. Neither of which speaks of any confidence on Mr Hendersons behalf.
How comes, that under such minor crash, the doors of the Cruze opened? The car must be very unsafe… Like other Chevrolets… Aveo had one of the worst euro-ncap test ever…
First comment on the pace car video. I wonder why they had someone from Virginia driving the pace car at a German race.
You have to read Fritz’ words carefully. He never said it is an American car, he said it is a ‘true chevrolet.’
Why would you assume a ‘true Chevrolet’ is American?
Ever notice how much Daewoo sounds like “screw you”
SherbornSean :
Why would you assume a ‘true Chevrolet’ is American?
Great point. Fritz sure is quick with the sublime insults to everyone’s intelligence, isn’t he?
gslippy, because it’s a Daewoo product that they came up with despite wherever GM chooses to assemble it (which is a few differnet countries).
A 3-Series assembled in South Africa or China isn’t magically a South African car from a South African or Chinese car from a Chinese company, it’s still a BMW. Just as the iPod and iPhone are American products assembled in China.
Dudes, we’re getting a Daewoo.
There is nothing wrong with selling a Korean-engineered car. However, lying about it makes one wonder: am I buying a car from lying crooks here?
yadayadayada and so it goes. Dudes if the Astra couldn’t make it (engineered by Opel, designed by people who know design) how in hell will a Daewoo make it. I mean c’mon, Daewoo always played second fiddle to Hyundai and Kia, and yes, I recognize the leaps and bounds Hyundai has made but, Daewoo? In Europe second fiddle players actually deliever something to their clients the 1st tier guys usually don’t get (think the historic relationhip BMW vis-à-vis Mercedes). But what does a Daewoo deliever? I mean it’s NOT sportier, more economic, roomier, sexier, better handling than Hyundai or Kia. So the point is…just price? And then you have Chevy struggling to up their retail prices…
Sad story. Generic styling (IMO ugly), so-so handling, ditto economy. I dare to say there’s no need to look into the crystal ball, this car’s a flop.
(And I thought they’d got it w/Malibu, Caddys et al. Sigh)
wsn :
October 9th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
“Sonata is also going D-I. I would bet on Sonata > Cruze.”
Keep in mind those cars don’t compete in the same category. The Sonata is a midsize and the Cruze is compact. A comparison of the Sonata and Malibu makes more sense.
I really think that they are moving in the right direction with this developed in Korea (lower cost), yet designed for American eyes car which will b built in America.
Let’s face it, most cars today have parts sourced around the world.
What does it matter who engineers them?
Do you believe that the Detroit engineers given the same amount of money and the same software as Seoul engineers would do any better?
Now, styling and the knowledge of what sells cars here is the difference.
GM has proven that they know what will sell 50% of the time and which will it be?
A dud or a hit?
Who knows, the thing to consider is they have so much ground to make up on many competitors and do they have the legs financially (Obama).
All of this over a small profit car.
But they could use this as a model to engineer more profitable models.
The clock is ticking and I gotta go and check on my Ford stock.
With large wheels, such as the ones on it at NAIAS, the Cruze looks quite good, with heavy overtones of B6 A4. The interior is much better than any currently offered in this class.
But it will also be heavy. While the ride will likely be smooth and quiet, the handling will lack agility and the engines could be overmatched.
It’s a Chevrolet if it was designed from the start to be a Chevrolet, as it probably was. The G8, as good as it was, never seemed like it was really a Pontiac to me.
The only thing the Cruze has in common with Korea and Daewoo is it was launched and built there first.
Engineering was mainly done by Opel and Holden with input from GM North America.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=128686
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/CA29C33951909857CA2575BB00214969
@bts
“Sonata is also going D-I. I would bet on Sonata > Cruze.”
Keep in mind those cars don’t compete in the same category. The Sonata is a midsize and the Cruze is compact. A comparison of the Sonata and Malibu makes more sense.
The Elantra is in the same class as the Cruze and will have a 6-speed automatic (and likely a 6-speed manual) transmission. As for the DI, if the 2012 Accent is getting a DI 1.6 and the 2011 Sonata is getting a DI 2.4, then it’s highly likely that the 2011 Elantra will be getting a DI 2.0.
bts, Those two links neither negate the fact that the Cruze was primarily engineered by Daewoo, nor are they correct in certain of their facts.
The reality is this: the Cruze does use the GM global Delta II platform that underpins all of GM’s current cars in this size class. And the Delta platform was originally developed by Opel, for the last generation Astra. But taking advantage of an existing platform architecture, and developing the rest of the car around it, doesn’t make it an Opel. It’s the fine tuning, the details, the parts sourcing, and lots of other details that make the finished product.
The Cruze is substantially from Daewoo, just not quite as much as the Aveo.
Not a bad looking car from the front shot but they’re taking so long to get this thing on the market in the US it will probably be irrelevant by the time you can actually buy one.
Paul, it’s great you have links in your original article except where it matters.
My second link specifically says the Cruze was designed by Opel, built by Daewoo. And again…
“Cruze debuts GM’s smart Global Delta architecture and is the first collaborative project with GM divisions worldwide.
With engineering equally shared by Opel and Holden, this version is a “Euro-stralian” effort that just happens to be made for now in South Korea.
It’s also the first truly new GM car built by GM-DAT (formerly Daewoo), and that shows. It might still be a low-cost import, but the interior especially isn’t let down by a cheap feel.”
from: http://www.drivesouth.co.nz/news/reviews/12609/holden-does-well-with-compact-cruze
“The reality is this: the Cruze does use the GM global Delta II platform that underpins all of GM’s current cars in this size class. And the Delta platform was originally developed by Opel, for the last generation Astra. But taking advantage of an existing platform architecture, and developing the rest of the car around it, doesn’t make it an Opel. It’s the fine tuning, the details, the parts sourcing, and lots of other details that make the finished product.
The Cruze is substantially from Daewoo, just not quite as much as the Aveo.”
You say fine tuning, the details, the parts sourcing, etc define it. So you’re saying the Korean Cruze is substatially Daewoo.
But when the Cruze is built in North America for the NA market, it will take the Opel/Holden/GM NA engineering, use NA suppliers and production faculties (the same ones GM spent a fortune on for the Volt), GM NA fine tuning and details to produce the car. So you said it yourself that the North American Cruze will be a Chevy.
Is this the same car they bragged would get 40+ MPG?
The Chevy Cruze – should have been named the Chevy Snooze.
Initial reports of the 1.6L and 1.8L engines are not good – underpowered and unrefined.
Where are the turbos? VW and Mini manages to make motors that are fuel efficient and fun. Why can’t GM?
-ted
Edit – I hear a 1.4 turbo motor is in the works – it may just save this car yet – maybe….
bts, you’re missing the point. Don’t believe everything you read everywhere. I could spend all day correcting the PR blather and mis-information endlessly passed along the press and blogosphere.
I already tried to explain it before, but here goes: Daewoo designed and engineered this car, using the GM Delta II platform. The platform was the starting point; that’s what they got from Opel. But from the platform on, Daewoo did the rest of the primary work to develop this car and get into production. Yes, they undoubtedly had input from NA and Holden, but Daewoo put it all together. It’s their car. They can take credit for it. And notice how Henderson doesn’t deny it. Because that’s the truth.
Another huge mis-conception is that the Saturn Vue and Opel Antera CUVs were designed by Opel. Flat out not true; both were designed by Daewoo. Which exlains why they’re so heavy (4200 lbs). Opel would not let that have happened.
GM no longer has the engineering skill necessary to compete on the world stage. If companies like Mitsubishi and Daewoo can engineer and design their own cars and GM can’t then it is truly pathetic.
This is Wagoneer’s legacy and it is far worse than Roger Smith’s.
The Cruze will probably be a moderate success like the Cobalt and ION where. No way this car is going to break the 300,000 annual sales mark.
“… cruze is an all new vehicle developed as a true chevrolet … ”
And what, pray tell, defines a “true Chevrolet”?
Is Fritz saying that the Aveo isn’t a true Chevrolet? Is the Colorado a true Chevrolet?
Isuzu, GM USA and GM Brazil all developed the Colorado and used the prior generation Isuzu D-max as the starting point. Is the Chevrolet Colorado built in Thailand by Isuzu but sold as a Chevrolet a real Chevrolet?
What exactly makes a Chevy a Chevy? I bet there isn’t a person at General Motors, including Fritz, who has a good answer to that question.
Looks pretty good to me. More of what I want GM to sell more of. Of course I haven’t seen the inside or underneath. Yeah – I look UNDER car and if I’m not satisfied with how they bolted it together, I’m not buying.
I must add that most of the GM products I LIKE don’t last for long. Too similar to the imports that I traditionally favored in the cosmetics.
See the Astra. Got it right and then canceled it. See the Solstice.
I guess the real question is how will it hold up and how good will the drivetrain be? They ought to source the engine and tranny from the last gen Honda like they did with the Vue. I’d have ALOT more faith in it.
Got my fingers crossed for it succeeding.
problem is it looks korean and the old bad korea, not the good new korean like Hyundai and Kia
zerofoo +1
From all reports, the “Holden” Cruze is a serviceable [pun unintended] car let down only by the doggy 1.8 and the Motori diesel.
Holden is designing the hatch version which I think is due late next year but until GM [as opposed to GMH] can do something about the powerplant, it’s going to be an also-ran.
Why did we bail them out again? I liked the Chevy Celebrity Eurosport better. When is that gonna show up in curb side classics?
I refer you to the “Chevrolet Launches Cruze” article on page 11 and 12 of the December 2008 issue of “Automotive Engineering,” an SAE publication. In the article, Peter Mertens, Global Vehicle Line Executive for Compact Cars extols the virtues of the interior soft plastic being much cheaper than it appears (!).
He then goes on to state that although the Cruze body has 140% more torsional rigidity compared to the Cobalt, it does not pass the side crash-protection requirements in those jurisdictions forcing carmakers to increase vehicle safety.
Specifically, to pass the U.S. side crash standards, small reinforcements had to be added to the B-pillars and the rocker panels to better tie the roof and floor pan into the sides to achieve the necessary crash test results.
Also stated was the fact that the higher level of safety will only be for those areas where government regulations prevail.
General Motors has its own “Ugly American” agenda: Paraphrasing Mr. Mertens, “It will be a cold day in Hell when GM throws away four bucks and three pounds per car on some dumb goal of dramatically increasing occupant protection in a side crash for those areas where it is not mandated by law.”
I liked the Chevy Celebrity Eurosport better. When is that gonna show up in curb side classics?”
I think never is the answer. They died or rusted away.
I drove it, and I’m writing the review right now.
Paraphrasing Mr. Mertens, “It will be a cold day in Hell when GM throws away four bucks and three pounds per car on some dumb goal of dramatically increasing occupant protection in a side crash for those areas where it is not mandated by law.”
This sums up the whole GM problem in a nutshell. There is nothing inherently wrong with Korean engineering – Witness Hyundai. The problem always comes from the instructions given the engineers and the limitations placed on them.
And here is the nut:
From a 2006 Business Week article
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/sep2006/bw20060906_198888.htm
GM’s warranty costs have fallen 40% in the last five years as GM has, among other things, increased the durability specifications on its cars. It used to be, for example, that key parts were designed to last only 80,000 miles. That has increased, say GM executives, to well over 100,000 miles, with many parts specified to last 120,000 miles.
The reference quoted (Thanks, CarPerson) at the top of my post shows that the old pre-2006 mentality is back (if it ever left):
Stamp ’em out cheap and let God the dealers sort em out.
TonyJZX wrote: “problem is it looks korean and the old bad korea, not the good new korean like Hyundai and Kia”
That’s problem I have with it. The packaging looks too Asian – and – to my eyes already looks dated versus the soon to be released Ford Focus.
Message to the folks at the RenCenter: Put down the Kool-Aid for a few days, then ask yourselves is the Cruze going to being a leader in its class – or – another GM vehicle that starts out in the good enough category?
3 months ago I had a chance to to look at the Cruze up close and felt it was a nice car, but in many ways not as competitive as the Civic or Corolla. The interior quality (what I observed) and long term reliability (what I expect) will not be match them. I did not drive the car, but expect the driving performance to competitive. The chassis was tuned by GMNA. In the past I had a chance to work Engineers from Daewoo and found them not be as capable as engineers from GMNA or GME (Opel). They were always looking for the “recipe” for doing their job, which of course never exists because engineering is an exercise in problem solving. I think they were drinking too much of Jim Queen’s Kool-Aid. The Korens never want to take any risk, they always wanted the correct answer up front. There also was a lot of friction between the GME and Daewoo engineers. The Germans felt that they got screwed by Daewoo some previous car programs.
That’s another one of GM’s problems, by the time vehicles actually get to market they’ve already been leapfrogged by the competition.
“I don’t care if it is a black cat or a white cat, as long as it catches mice”
–The late, great (but diminutive) Deng Hsiao Ping.
I similarly do not give a rat’s ass if the Cruze is a rebranded Daewoo or a so-called “Novel” GM product,
AS LONG AS it catches mice too!
Meaning, as long as it pulverizes its competition on BOTH Consumer Reports reliability owners reports AND ACES all enthusiast mags, esp. Car and Driver, Comparison Tests.
Can our Congress please say something about a bailed out US company selling daiwoos in the US?
GS650G: The corrupt Congress can talk all it wants, but it will not make one iota of difference.
After all, GM and Ford have been selling canadian and many more mEXICAN, as well as other Daewoo models in the US (see Aveo) for YEARS.
Personally, I do not give a rat’s ass where the cars sold in the US come from. I will decide what is best for ME the consumer, and I advice everybody ELSE to do the same, that is how a HEALTHY GROWING economy works.
And when the UAW losers buy US made TVs, Sneakers, Clothes and all the rest of the foreign stuff that fills their homes, THEN they will have the right to tell ME to buy US made POS I never wanted. After all, NO US maker makes any models that are comparable to the car I drive now (and I really do not want anybody to mumble anything abvout the… Panther platform, or some Caddy, Buick or Lincoln, I have looked at their offerings, they offer NO similar vehicle)
the problem with small cars to me is that they are not men’s cars… i have a problem even with good designs like the Ford Focus and the Kia Forte.
They are good cars with clever interior and exterior designs but even they will alienate some guys.
Now this Cruze… the outside has a really offputing look. It is just not an attractive car. I just don’t wanna see it in my driveway.
2ndly, the car has a 1.8 liter petrol with 104kW and 176Nm… it weighs close onto 3,000lb…
This doesn’t sound like any recipe for driving pleasure.
The plus side is I like the interior.
This is symptomatic of GM’s failure. They make a mediocre car in a one size fits all for all markets.
It’s not enough to make a good car with a good warranty. You all know GM won’t survive to any degree with a car that merely meets the opposition.
This car they delivered is mediocre ar best… a fleet/rental at worst. Where’s the sex? What’s making me wanna step into a showroom and buy this car?
And all the while GM global deludes themselves thinking this car will ‘save’ them…
“TonyJZX :
October 10th, 2009 at 9:28 am
the problem with small cars to me is that they are not men’s cars… i have a problem even with good designs like the Ford Focus and the Kia Forte.”
Weight and size is not really all that matters. I can think of plenty of large V8s that were specifically designed as “chick cars”, the most obvious example is the MERCURY brand, in the past the “Cougar” was the chick equivalent of the “Thunderbird”.
Motorcycles, even heavy Harleys, weigh a small fraction of what an econobox weighs, and even their engines and HP are smaller. That does not mean they are not predominantly bought by men.
It is true that many women prefer a tiny Miata to a heavy S class or 7 series. This has to do with their smaller average size, but also with their driving needs (go to downtown areas to shop where parking is difficult etc)
autosavant:Remember, the farther down the drain American car production goes, so goes MANY other businesses. Eventually it will affect you. Cant we build anything here anymore? The globalists sure dont want that.Their plan to destroy our standard of living cant come soon enough. Black cat, white cat, I DO care.
The pic shows a reasonable looking car. However, methinks what we need is some different looks, some different interiors, e.g., something that will excite the senses. This car is just one of many – and given both the US and Korean pedigree – probably not at the top of quality and reliability.
There’s tons of talent in this country. I truly hope we use it – and start actually making things – oops, quality things – here again.
Hopefully, people will not associate Cruze with Hyundai. Cruze should be an all around superior choice than that!
“seabrjim :
October 10th, 2009 at 9:54 am
autosavant:Remember, the farther down the drain American car production goes, so goes MANY other businesses. Eventually it will affect you.”
NO IT WILL NEVER EVER AFFECT MY BUSINESS.
In fact, my business, where I have lifetime employment with NO retirement age limit (although I could easilyu have retired two years ago with full and excellent benefits), IS A MODEL for those in Detroit that have been Losing HOME GAMES for 35 years in a row and blaming everybody ELSE, including, amazingly, the long-suffering CONSUMER for it!!!
In MY business, people from all over the world pay AN ARM AND A LEG to use our “Products”, which are products of our BRAINS and not our hands. The USA is BY FAR the best in the entire world in my business, and has become so AFTER the “SPUTNIK” scare, which made the US INVEST in RESEARCH, and transformed our top Universities from merely glorified High schools to RESEARCH institutions, generating NEW KNOWLEDGE and Advancing the State-of-the-Art.
We do NOT go around begging anybody to come to us and give us their considerable $. THEY ask us, and ONLY if they are QUALIFIED< and ace the tests and the GPAS and all thr rest of it, do we admit them.
" Cant we build anything here anymore? The globalists sure dont want that."
That is 100%, USDA choice BS you parrot from that contemptible DEMAGOGUE Lou DObbs no doubt, and is 100% WRONG, every word of it. I have NO TIME to give you a free education. Go look the FACTS Up. We still build and make PLENTY OF STUFF, but the stuff that the chinese and indians CANNOT MAKE.
You will never will be able again to make $64 an hour being a JANITOR at Delphi, with NO education and NO skills.
And the time where these people made $64 an hour, while, as late as 1979, top universities such as the U of Michigan in Ann Arbor were hiring MIT GENIUSES with SERIOUS PhDs, that sacrificed the ten best years of their lives before they became junior faculty for $19,000 a year, and worked them to death before it gave them their precious TENURE, is GONE FOREVER.
FREE TRADE, WARTS AND ALL, is the ONLY way to BOTH peace and prosperity All over the world. AND less trade will only SHOOT YOU IN THE FOOT.
You REALLY seem you need to learn a whole lot, and I am missing my weekly entertainment, the excellent NPR "Click and Clack" car show to educate you. I will stop and at least catch its last 6 minutes.
Looks like a nice car, hopefully Chevrolet will get it on the lot soon.
Ok
let me straighten this out a bit because I’m tired of hearing it. Daewoo did not do much if any engineering on the Cruze.(Daewoo (Korea arm) does little to no stand alone engineering.) The base body was a collaboration between several design studios, GM/Patac (the china arm) Did the interior hard parts design and most of the body structure in collaboration with GMNA and Opel. Opel did much of the suspension tuning for the models curently being sold.(North America will do their own) Opel did the powertrain for most of the current models being sold. GMNA did half of the electronic controls hard parts and Opel did the other half. China did their own specific electronics calibrations for the stuff that occurs inside the body (North America will do their own). Opel did the electronics calibrations for what happens under the hood.(North America will do their own)
That said everyone neds to step back and understand what I wrote. No single division of GM not Holden, Opel, Daewoo, Patac, or GMNA engineers a complete car anymore. There is no such thing. Just because a division of GM may roll out a car design at an auto show does not mean they are the full designer of it. It just means they may be the first in line to get it. GM no longer designs a car specific for a division and badges it for others with the exception of Vauxhall. Vauxhall has no stand alone enginnering group per se, those are truely global cars plugged into opel with different badges. GM builds a global cars and multiple divisions are slated to get it from the beginning and it is designed as such. However no group owns the whole design by a long shot.
Case in point: I did a significant amount of engineering on the Camaro,Cruze,Lacetti and Insignia and I sit right here in North America. Opel did a significant amount of work on the SRX,Equinox,Terrain,Camaro,Lacrosse
PATAC, Holden and GM/CAMI Canada also worked on those.
@ zerofoo
I hear a 1.4 turbo motor is in the works – it may just save this car yet – maybe….
This was to be also used (sans turbo) in the Volt? They’re currently built in Austria (or something like that).
I wonder if it’s caught up in the Opel nastiness?
We’ve had the Cruze in Australia for about 3 months. Sales are underwhelming to say the least. So are the reviews. Holden expect to build them in Australia but they’re way way way off the sales numbers they need to fully commit. Holden will lose government $$$ if they don’t however.
“Autosavant :
October 10th, 2009 at 9:35 am
It is true that many women prefer a tiny Miata to a heavy S class or 7 series. This has to do with their smaller average size, but also with their driving needs (go to downtown areas to shop where parking is difficult etc)”
Why is my 1990 Miata, with no power steering, manual windows, a manual top, 5 speed manual transmission, and a stiff, double wishbone suspension a chick car while big heated seat, soak up the road cars with automatics and latte dispensers are mens cars. Everyone wines about no one building cars for the enthusiast but the one that is probably the most accessible to everyone is written off as a chick car. Yes, us mere workplace mortals will probably never own an Elise.
The logical conclusion to this philisophy is to of course buy a Tahoe. Trucks after all are mans vehicles.
Autosavant:
Personally, I do not give a rat’s ass where the cars sold in the US come from. I will decide what is best for ME the consumer, and I advice everybody ELSE to do the same, that is how a HEALTHY GROWING economy works.
Then you send tax dollars to the effort. I care when my paycheck is raided, a lot. This isn’t about UAW issues or flag waving. It’s about billions being stolen from us and benefiting foreign companies and workers. Make the Daiwoo workers pay a tax for the pleasure of building cars for sale here.
People like you who don’t care where their products came from are what got the country into the trade mess in the first place. Walmart mentality.
Regardless of where it’s built or designed, the reviews universally pan the car for its motors, particularly the 1.8 liter gas engine which presumably will be in the US version of the car.
Aside from reliability, GM’s primary weaknesses in the US have been with designing interiors and engines that have fewer than eight cylinders. It would seem with this effort that they have figured out the interiors, but still haven’t sorted out the engines.
This is a bad sign. At this pace, there won’t be a replacement until at least 2014, if not later. This car will probably not change a lot of minds about GM, mostly because it shouldn’t. It’s destined to become yet another rental car, which in turn will give people a bad impression because of the buzzy anemic engine.
These guys have had a good 35 years to figure out how to build a decent 4-cylinder engine for the American market, yet they never have, not even once. And then they have the gall to wonder why people don’t want to buy them. (Actually, I take that back — they blame “currency manipulation”, “bigotry” and all of this other nonsense, instead of blaming themselves for producing a substandard vehicle.)
Yet another of GM’s continuing attributes, introducing new models that give no reason for anyone that wasn’t already predisposed to buying their vehicles a reason to consider buying one.
It has been said many many times, GM just doesn’t get it. They are still clueless and it looks like the only thing that will end it is Chapter 7.
Even Hyudai/Kia get it but not GM. Very sad.
The 1.8 will not be used in the NA version acording to what I know. Only a 1.4 and a 1.4 turbo
I don’t think you could call the latest DI 4 cylinder in the Equinox buzzy by any stretch. In fact most reviewers have noted its particularly well refined for a 4
Not to mention the 2.0 DI turbo ecotec (heres looking at you ecoboost) is certainly not anemic by any measure.
And how good is that 4 cylinder. Heres an example of a race variant based on a stock block 2.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3OKFVlcj1o
The 1.8 will not be used in the NA version acording to what I know.
According to this link, the US will be getting the 1.8 liter and the 1.4 liter turbo. It’s fair to guess that the 1.8 will get most of the sales: http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2011-chevrolet-cruze.htm
I work at GM and I’m telling you different. So I guess we’ll se what we’ll see.
Pch101 :
October 10th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Regardless of where it’s built or designed, the reviews universally pan the car for its motors, particularly the 1.8 liter gas engine which presumably will be in the US version of the car.
Aside from reliability, GM’s primary weaknesses in the US have been with designing interiors and engines that have fewer than eight cylinders. It would seem with this effort that they have figured out the interiors, but still haven’t sorted out the engines…
These guys have had a good 35 years to figure out how to build a decent 4-cylinder engine for the American market, yet they never have, not even once.
I put 3300 miles on a rental Cobalt Sport with the 2.4L version of the Ecotec. Horrible interior, but I thought it had a pretty good engine held back by a 4 speed automatic. The lighter weight Saturn/Opel Astra would have been an interesting car if it had been available with the 2.4L Ecotec instead of the 1.8L.
I think the 3.6L Direct Injection V6 from the Cadillac CTS would also qualify as a decent GM engine with fewer than 8 cylinders. If anything, GM drivetrain engineers outperform their coworkers who design the rest of the car.
So, does this replace the Cobalt, or are the going to sell both at once? And what are they going to call the replacement for this in 2014, assuming GM still exists by then? I assume the 2014 replacement will also start with a C, like Cavalier and Cobalt and Cruze. Maybe Crude? Crap? Crud?
Meanwhile, I know that in 2014, Toyota’s small car will be called the Corolla and Honda’s small car will called the Civic, just like are called now, and were called in 2004 and 1999 and 1994 and 1989 and 1984 and 1979 and 1974.
Yes George B, those are fine engines, but for every 1 of those there are scores of Quad 4s with blown head gaskets, underpowered Iron Dukes, and smoking Saturn 1.9’s out there.
The Cruze may be O.K., but I like Ford’s upcoming offerings better (new Focus and Fiesta) at this stage. GM needs to learn that it is not O.K. to simply build a better car than the model it replaces when the model it replaces is 2-3 generations behind the competition (Cobalt better than the Cavilier but not as good as an early 90’s civic).
And GEOPTF, so where do I get my 2014 Tercel or Echo or whatever the Yaris is in 2014. Guess Toyota is becoming more like GM…so does Scion = Saturn in 2014?
That’s the exception that proves the rule. In any case, Honda almost never ditches brands, at least in the North American market. Toyota will when the product is considered a failure, like in the case of the Tercel and especially the Echo. But once they get it right, they stick with it-I suspect Yaris will be with us for good. Their minivan is another example-it was originally called just “Toyota Van”, and then Previa, but when they really got it right on the Sienna, they stuck with it.
In any case, compare Toyota’s lineup from a decade ago with their lineup today, and Chevy’s from a decade ago to Chevy’s today, and you can see the pattern for the whole brand.
“Yes George B, those are fine engines, but for every 1 of those there are scores of Quad 4s with blown head gaskets, underpowered Iron Dukes, and smoking Saturn 1.9’s out there.”
Quad 4? When were they last built? 1993? Iron Duke 2.5L? 20 years ago? How are they even remotely relevant to today’s powertrain offerings?
exactly!
+1
Their not. I’ve seen ecotec 4’s do things foreign 4’s can only dream about. Why is everyone obsessed with what was GM past. Either your all to young to remember the craptastic junk that came from japan in the 80’s or you never had one and are just carrying on with what you were told.
All of it was junk in the 80’s all of it. I worked on all of it as an independent mechanic in the 80’s it was all crap didn’t matter who made it.
Fiat X19’s were crap
Datsun 210 and 260Z’s were crap
Civic’s and Accords were crap
Hyundai’s were serious crap (I don’t see anyone beating up on them) Lets see they have a class action going about the entire corner of the suspension falling off their cars.
Toyota’s were crap. celicas were famous for corroded heads. (in fact my neighbor ran A welding service and he was 24/7 welding up alum import heads. he had B16 and B20 heads stacked like cordwood
Stupid is as stupid writes. X1/9’s rule.
Quad 4? When were they last built? 1993? Iron Duke 2.5L? 20 years ago? How are they even remotely relevant to today’s powertrain offerings?
Because not much has changed. According to the most recent JD Power Vehicle Dependability Survey, Chevy loses yet again compared to the best of the Japanese. The rankings, based upon a 2-5 star scale, with 5 being best:
Toyota Prius – 5
Honda Civic – 4
Hyundai Elantra – 4
Pontiac Vibe – 4
Toyota Matrix – 4
Chevrolet Cobalt – 3
Ford Focus – 3
Kia Spectra – 3
Mitsubishi Lancer – 3
Nissan Sentra – 3
Saturn ION – 3
Toyota Corolla – 3
Volkswagen Beetle – 3
Volkswagen Golf – 3
Volkswagen Jetta – 3
Mazda 3 – 2
MINI Cooper – 2
Suzuki Forenza – 2
It would be terrific if they could just put the past behind them, but instead, they keep trying to relive it. If there is some reason to believe that “things will be different this time” with the Cruze, then now’s your time to speak up.
(By the way, shouldn’t you disclose that you are a Chevy salesman?)
PCH exactly where does any of that above identify specific issues with the engine.
And no SA I’m a GM engineer thank you. And by the way I’m sick and tired of being called UAW, Troll, Salesman etc for defending what I do. Neidemier you need to fix that. I’m tired of being attacked. You don’t have to like what I do but don’t attack me personally. I give you all the same respect.
exactly where does any of that above identify specific issues with the engine.
That was the drivetrain ranking.
You would think that someone in Detroit would see that outcome, feel embarrassed about it, and rise to the challenge. But instead, it’s the old routine of constantly playing defense. Making excuses instead of improvements doesn’t exactly build confidence with the public, you know.
I’m sick and tired of being called UAW, Troll, Salesman etc for defending what I do.
Bridge2far admitted on another thread to being a Chevy salesman. It helps the audience to know that if anyone posting here has an agenda, it’s him.
Well now you know who I am. Yea things in the past havent been perfect. I admit that freely.But today is today and yesterday was yesterday and 50 % of the folks that worked at GM are no longer there. Its a new ballgame. I’m sure if I knew what you did I could find fault. Criticizing you for things before you worked there would accomplish what?
Agendas? I’d like to know how many here are Hyundai,Toyota,Ford,Honda employees. Wouldn’t that be interesting.
I feel only pity for a fellow who has to hump GM iron. My heart goes out to you, sir.
Funny how the vaunted Mazda 3 ranks down there at the bottom of that rankings list, right near the Daewoo of Suzukis, the Forenza. And below the much maligned Cobalt.
The Ecotec is a fine engine in 2.2, 2.0 or 2.4 form. Probably the best 4 cylinder GM has ever offered. And the best part of the Cobalt and ION. The GM transmissions are tough and reliable, I will say that in GM’s defense.
I saw the Cruze at a customer clinic over a year ago and was impressed with it’s looks, size and interior. It was going to be my next new car. I guess it is. It just won’t be in my driveway, since I am not going to pay GM twice, plus get paid back with a rebate of my own damn tax money.
It is immaterial how good it is: no GM car will ever grace my driveway again. They had 25 years of chances with my family and me. No more.
At least there haven’t been any predictable comments about the Cruze being a “refined 30 year old Cavalier”.
@PCH –
Why should GM apologize for making a car that’s as reliable as a Corolla?
I am not a Toyota Plant…I am a Soldier that probably hates Toyotas more than anyone.
But as to why people keep refering to the past with GM…well, It is because I had not one pile of crap GM 4 cylinder. I accept that sometimes you get a lemon. No, being a military man I wanted to buy American so I have had 3 GM 4 cyl. products ranging from mediocre to bad. This doesn’t even count the broken ring land on my 40,000 mile 305. My Saturn was the best…going 215,000 miles before it grenaded due to a timing chain tensioner failure. BUT it smoked and used a lot of oil from around 50,000 miles on. My ECOTEC Ion was just OK, but it had annoyances…like having to shave away plastic on the intake manifold to change the oil…That was the dealers suggestion, otherwise the filter is not accesssible. It was as powerful as the import offerings, but it was larger too. And the AC never kept the car cool. I bought it new too. My wife’s VUE was an absolute pile of crap. They all rattled more than my 185,000 mile Miata…a freakin convertible for cryin out loud. Ac cording to my count I have now owned 5 really bad GM products… 3 new, one 2 y/o used, and one 10 y/o but extremely low mileage example. Wait. actually 6. I forgot about my new 2003 S-10 with the OHC 2.2. 3 days in I had to take it back for a coolant leak. They said it was the timing cover. Also had issues with a leaky valve cover. I won’t touch the door handles that kept breaking since it was a bad old GM design. So pardon me if I don’t jump right back in because the cruze might be OK…I’ll stick with the known quantity for a bit thank you.
If Ford would build a car I actually like…something akin to the Miata I’d buy American again as I have had much better luck from them (Actually had a supposedly craptastic 2.9 v6 in a Bronco II go over 300k with nothing other than oil changes). If GM can string together 3 good generations of a model I’ll give them another look. I now have a Hyundai for the wife and my aforementioned Miata and see no reason to go back to GM.
Poor GM quality (engine and car) from years past isn’t any more relevant today than considering new GM products are to all their previous customers that got burned on their past crap products. Unfortunately for GM there isn’t enough time, money or customers left.
Why is everyone obsessed with what was GM past. Either your all to young to remember the craptastic junk that came from japan in the 80’s or you never had one and are just carrying on with what you were told.
The only way GM can survive is if they start selling more cars and selling those cars at a profit. Right now, their market share is shrinking and has been for several years. Customers are going to Hyundai, Honda, and Toyota dealerships instead of GM. The reason they do this is at least partially to do the fact that GM built them a bad car at some point in their life. GM sold a lot more crappy cars in the 80’s and 90’s than the foreign makers did. Because of this, GM’s past is still relevant today while Hyundai’s isn’t nearly as much.
While Hyundai made terrible cars in the 80’s and 90’s just like every other manufacturer, not many people were buying them. So they were screwing very few people. Sure, most people may have known someone who owned an Excel back in college and the Excel owner may have complained loudly about their car. But that person was usually just “a guy who lived down the hall” and doesn’t wield a lot of purchasing influence to the potential customer today. For many customers buying Hyundai today, they are buying their first Hyundai. They have no prior negative experiences to prevent them from buying the car, just a guy they may have known 20 years ago and who they don’t know today. Many of those same customers did have a GM car and do have the prior negative experience that would wield some influence. They think back to all those times their Cutlass Ciera broke down and that negative experience still factors into their purchasing decisions today, even a little bit. If they owned a Scoupe instead, maybe they’d be swearing off Hyundai today. But they didn’t.
Why should GM apologize
This question embodies much of the failure of GM.
When confronted with his own mediocrity, a winner asks how what he can do to become the best. A loser digs in his heels and can’t understand why he has to apologize.
GM strives to be the biggest corporate “C” student in America, as if that’s something of which to be proud. GM would rather have the consumer pay them for an average effort than to become the alleged “Mark of Excellence” that it once claimed to be.
At this point, the only hope for GM’s long term survival is to build vehicles that are so good that consumers in time recognize the endeavor by spending their money on them. GM cannot simply be kinda sorta almost as good as the leaders, it must defeat the leaders.
That can’t happen if GM fails to admit that it simply isn’t as good as the competition as of today. GM has the potential to be the best, but it isn’t close to being the best as of today. Getting there will take hard work and an attitude that doesn’t brag about or get defensive about a mediocre result.
With GM’s culture of embracing and defending failure, my hopes for a recovery are minimal. Even a complete nuclear failure in the form of bankruptcy wasn’t enough of a wakeup call to get to a new attitude of striving to be the best. BK was the ultimate act of hitting bottom, and if that couldn’t do it, I don’t see what else can.
Incidentally, the Corolla got an overall score of 4, while the Cobalt got an overall score of 3, so they did not rank equally. But at least Toyota isn’t standing still — while GM fiddles as Detroit burns, TMC is reorganizing the management and confronting its issues. We all know who is more likely to succeed.
“GS650G :
October 10th, 2009 at 11:37 am
“Autosavant:
Personally, I do not give a rat’s ass where the cars sold in the US come from. I will decide what is best for ME the consumer, and I advice everybody ELSE to do the same, that is how a HEALTHY GROWING economy works.”
(Which was 100% CORRECT when I wrote it, and it is still 100.00% correct NOW. Whether you understand it or not.)
“Then you send tax dollars to the effort. ”
I am sending my tax dollars (AND you yours!) to the LOSERS AT GM and FIAT-CHRYSLER, with NO hope of accomplishing DIDDLY SQUAT!!!!!
NOT where you think, and to the Cash-for-clunkers FISASCO RIPOFF that accomplished NOTHING!
THESE is the trees you should bark under!!!!
“I care when my paycheck is raided, a lot. ”
Then you will just be very, very unhappy. My own paycheck is ROUTINELY raided for things I will NEVER benefit. Besides the trillion-dollar debacles in IRAQ and Afghanistan, the Social Security tax, where my $ grossly subsidizes the poor, and I may not even ever see ONE DIME of SS payments, My Local propsery taxes that subsidize our schools to the tune of $1,000s a year, even tho I never had any kids in them, and the list is a mile long!
“This isn’t about UAW issues or flag waving.”
Oh yes it is! AND it is EXCLUSIVELY for the AUTOMOTIVE FAT CATS! Where were YOU when all other 1,0009 of US industries went overseas as they MATURED and any third world nation could produce the goods at a far lower cost than we can?
” It’s about billions being stolen from us and benefiting foreign companies and workers.”
GARBAGE, there are NO “foreign” companies, both the US companies and the foreign PUBLIC multinationals are open to anybvody that cares to buy their stock and benefit from their real or alleged profits! I did not see you complain when a TON of so-called “domestic” US cars are made in MEXICO and especially CANADA!
“Make the Daiwoo workers pay a tax for the pleasure of building cars for sale here.”
This is LUDICROUS! We should do NOTHING of the kind, and there is NO pleasure involved above. BUT if you have evidence that KOREA is as narrow-minded and econ illiterate as you are, and IT forbids or heavily taxes imported cars there, THEN we should TAKE THEM TO COURT AND RETALIATE!
“People like you who don’t care where their products came from are what got the country into the trade mess in the first place. Walmart mentality.”
This shows how HOPELESS and clueless you are. AS i was afraid, I cannot even bEGIN to educate you, and I do not even know if you will EVER understand the most common sense things.
Go beach about walmart clueless person! WInstead of erecting a HUGE STATUE to Sam Walton in GRATITUDE for saving the 310,000,000 Amnerican CONSUMERS $10,000,000,000.00 A YEAR! But apparently you want only the RICH, like the Kennedys, to be able to afford some of these goods that now EVERYBODY can afford at WALMART, right?
The Rockefellers and the Kennedys, I can assure you, never shop at walmart, and will not feel even 0.01% of the PAIN POOR americans will feel, if some econ illiterate, USDA choice Senile Moron CLoses it down.
Oh, and another thing: Even when total HYPOCRITES like you do as you SAY, and buy every OTHER thing from DOMESTIC manufacturers, and NOT just your made in mexico or canada cars and trucks from GM, Ford and CHrysler, even THEN I will not be willing to change my rational, common sense, and econ literate byuing decisions.
Pch101 :
October 11th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Why should GM apologize
You missed my point. The fact is that the Cobalt is as reliable as the Corolla. That means the Cobalt is genuinely, no-shit reliable. That’s NOT something to apologize for!
The fact is that the Cobalt is as reliable as the Corolla.
That isn’t a fact. The two earned the same score in the subcategory of drivetrain reliability, but the Corolla received a better score for overall reliability.
But again, you’re missing it. The GM product received a score of just “average.” A company fighting for its life cannot afford to be just average. There isn’t much reason for people to buy “average” when they get above average or excellent for a few more bucks.
You should also have a bit of perspective. Toyota has 23 cars in this survey, inclusive of Scion and Lexus. Of those, 14 received the top score of “5”.
In contrast, GM has 41 entrants in this survey, excluding Saab. It earned only three scores of “5”, and one of those was for the Pontiac Vibe, which of course was built on its behalf by Toyota.
Now compare them for the bottom ranking. GM has seven vehicles with the bottom score of “2”. Toyota has only one. (And if Toyota is smart, they’ll view that as being one too many.)
The two companies aren’t even close to being on the same footing. The fact that this could be tolerable to anyone within GM, after all that has happened, is simply amazing. But since there is apparently no will to do anything about it, the likelihood of it being fixed aren’t good.