If Ford, Honda, Toyota and Nissan are nursing headaches after the Cash For Clunkers party and GM and Chrysler are still asleep in puddles of their own vomit, Hyundai Group never went to sleep and is still partying hard. With sales up 26 percent over September ’08, Hyundai is holding a clinic on the difference between a soft landing with an excuse and real success. And Kia [via Autospies] isn’t far behind, with sales up 24.4 percent. As if to prove that nobody has it easy in today’s global car game, Bloomberg reports that the strength of the Korean Won is gouging Hyundai’s overseas profit. Still, in the American market, Hyundai wouldn’t trade places with any other manufacturer.
Accent added about 1,800 sales compared to its performance last September, while Sonata shed about 730 sales. Elantra was the big winner though, with a 104 percent increase to 7,513 units. Santa Fe jumped 50 percent, ending up with 7,010 sales while Genesis added about 60 percent to 1,665. Tucson sales edged up by a few hundred units, while Veracruz (574) and Azera (339) edged lower into triple digit sales. Entourage and Tiburon are circling the toilet at 28 and 37 units respectively.
Kia sold 462 of its remaining Spectras, but its brand-new Forte replacement smashed the Spectra’s performance last September by logging 4,449 sales. Optima was a screamer as well, selling 5,986 compared to September 08’s 1,905. Soul had a respectable 2,459-unit month and Sportage edged up by about 200 units to 1,938. On the downside, Sorento fell hard from 3,163 to 854, as did Rondo (2,642 to 653). Sedona slid by 350 sales, ending up at 1,297. Rio was up by about 750 units and Borrego volume tripled to 667. Amanti is over at 47 units.
With new Tucson and Sonata models on the way, Hyundai’s assault on the fat part of the American market seems to only just be ramping up. Meanwhile, the real laggards on the Hyundai roster are late-addition SUVs which likely won’t be aggressively replaced. Kia still has major weak points in its lineup, specifically on the Rio, Rondo and Amanti fronts. For all its perception-altering presence, the Soul still hasn’t proven to be a mainstream hit, and considering how strong the compact CUV segment is, the Sportage is something of an underachiever. Still, Hyundai-Kia has momentum that the other automakers can only dream of.
Hyundai has some good models, and some that have no exact equivalent in other makers, such as the highly rated Elantra.
So YOY sales are reported. When does the market share analysis get reported?
In September 2009, GM sold 156,673 vehicles. How many did Toyota and Ford sell? Kia? Hyundai?
just askin’
from your ever friendly GM employee (geez I get weary having to say it every post.. but it is a requirement of our SoMe policy)
Hyundai/Kia provide the best value on the market, and are the lowest cost producers. Rock on!
ChristyGarwood :
October 1st, 2009 at 7:20 pm
So YOY sales are reported. When does the market share analysis get reported?
Why do you need it to be reported? You got the sales nos, you can get the cheaest calculator (Or XL sheet) and figure it out yourself. I already did and also plotted the September MArket shares on my PC XL sheet:
Here goes:
BMW 19205 1.37% 2.6%
CHRYSLER 62197 8.3%
DAIMLER 17814 2.4%
FORD 114241 15.3%
GM 155679 20.9%
HONDA 77229 10.3%
HYUNDAI-KIA 53134 7.1%
MAZDA 14234 1.9%
MITSU 4712 0.6%
NISSAN 55393 7.4%
PORSCHE 1581 0.2%
SUBARU 14593 2.0%
SUZUKI 1861 0.2%
TOYOTA 126015 16.9%
TATA/Jag/LR 3106 0.4%
VW 24698 3.3%
OTHER, izuzu 514 0.07%
TOTAL 746,206 100.00%
You’re welcome.
There is not a single Hyundai-Kia model that I’d be interested in, since I can usually find something better or much better from other makers.
Autosavant :
October 1st, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Hyundai has some good models, and some that have no exact equivalent in other makers, such as the highly rated Elantra.
The sedan or Touring model?
Hyundai’s fleet sales are high enough that it would be useful to have that information. They’re also using high incentives. A lot like the domestics in terms of methodology, although with better quality.
Hyundai/Kia remained very agressive on pricing throughout September. They start with already low MSRPs compared to similarly equipped competing models and then go from there. Sonatas, for example, had $3000 rebates on them throughout the month. Nearly everyone else dialed the incentives way back in September on account of skinny inventories.
Hyundai/Kia has gotten its quality act together, gives a terrific warranty and prices the product very aggressively. The are gaining a lot of share with value sensitive buyers.
“Hyundai’s fleet sales are high enough that it would be useful to have that information. ”
Indeed. We just finished the search for a replacement for our daughter’s car which was destroyed by another driver. Luckily she seems to be ok, if badly bruised and shaken. We ended up buying an ex-rental 2008 Sonata w/40k miles. We had well over a dozen similar Sonatas to choose from at dealers in the area. The rental fleets put scads of those things on the market. I am impressed how shake and rattle free the car is with that many miles on it. I wish our bought new 2003 Accord had stayed as squeak and rattle free. The Sonota is well equipped for a base GLS model and has some of the best crash test ratings in the business. If all those Chevrolet “Classics” dumped into the rental fleets had been this good Chevrolet would have been earning new customers!
If Ford, Honda, Toyota and Nissan are nursing headaches after the Cash For Clunkers party and GM and Chrysler are still asleep in puddles of their own vomit, Hyundai Group never went to sleep and is still partying hard.
Classic, Ed.
“FreedMike :
October 1st, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Autosavant :
October 1st, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Hyundai has some good models, and some that have no exact equivalent in other makers, such as the highly rated Elantra.
The sedan or Touring model?”
Of course the Touring. (5-door). More practical. Since the sedan does have direct competitors.
Hyundai has some great models?
I’m not sure which ones they are. Everything they make looks cheap as hell.
If I was making less than $40,000 a year I’d probably opt for an Accord or even a Fusion.
Thank God I’ve got a huge portfolio and I can afford an S-class. I’ll never have to make those hard choices !
Our Korean friends are also cranking out the highest bang-for-the-buck instruments in the guitar market.
This result from Hyundai doesn’t surprise me at all.
You know what grinds my gears? People who comment in nearly every post that they have an S-Class. Whoop-dee-f’in-doo.
I’d say the Elantra GT does have some competitors, including the Mazda3 Hatchback and the Jetta Sportwagon, though both of those are priced a bit higher.
Hyundai is putting up some impressive numbers, but they are also putting out a lot of heavily subsidized leases while at the same time pumping the rental channel full of cars, that combination, in addition to the generally poor resale value on Hyundai/Kia vehicles, could come back to bite them in the ass in two to three years when the piper comes calling.
Hyundai, in about 20 years has come to a totaly different culture,,, think about that,,, and has come to dominate our car market. Why, on Gods green earth, can’t the domestics supply their own people with a product that competes with this type of competition ? I have NO sympathy for the domestics.
Free stock pick for everyone.
Put 5k into Hyundai. The trend is your friend.
Seriously Mr. Flashpoint, it’s tacky as hell!
And also, my retired neighbor who makes six digits still drives a Corolla he owned since 1996. Still in mint condition. A lot of times, people simply like a good car for not too many bucks. And in this economy, people realize more and more where priorities must lie: investing/their home/their children’s education, and not glamorous cars (like the S-class) and uber-high insurance.
Go Hyundai! I wonder how much the new Sonata will increase sales by?
Genesis still needs real wood inserts, though. And some real chrome/metal on the doors/dash.
And somehow I still have yet to see a single Genesis coupe on the road… and I drive by a Hyundai dealer almost every day.
“Thank God I’ve got a huge portfolio and I can afford an S-class. I’ll never have to make those hard choices !”
When you have a Bugatti Veyron like me then we’ll talk. Of course it’s no good for towing my Cigarette boat. For that I use my Lambo LM001.
It’s good to be me.
Think you mean your LM002, the 001 was the military protoype.
Hope it’s a short Cigarette, or you’ll be past the Lambo’s tow rating.
Just sayin’…
Thanks porschespeed, I have so many toys because I’m so rich I can’t keep them all straight.
Autosavant :
October 1st, 2009 at 7:49 pm
“FreedMike :
October 1st, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Of course the Touring. (5-door). More practical. Since the sedan does have direct competitors.
The Touring is a very good car waiting for a great engine to make it brilliant. Best driving Hyundai ever, and that includes the Genesis, as far as I’m concerned.
John Horner :
October 1st, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Hyundai/Kia remained very agressive on pricing throughout September. They start with already low MSRPs compared to similarly equipped competing models and then go from there. Sonatas, for example, had $3000 rebates on them throughout the month. Nearly everyone else dialed the incentives way back in September on account of skinny inventories.
Good point…and in this economy, I think the cars that deliver the most bang for the buck are the winners, and nobody beats Hyundai for that.
Now, if they can deliver a truly great-driving car, that’s bad news.
“Now, if they can deliver a truly great-driving car, that’s bad news.”
At this point I don’t think Hyundai is concerned with the driving enthusiast market. That market is, after all, small. What Hyundai delivers is a car with reasonable handling for everyday needs which also delivers the kind of cushy quiet ride most American car buyers seek. I generally much prefer driving my TSX over my daughter’s Sonata, but I would choose the Sonata for a really long highway trip. Noise and vibration really wear on a person when you put eight or more hours a day in behind the wheel. Hyundai also includes stability control in even base model Sonatas which makes it less likely Joe or Jane Average Driver will get themselves into trouble.
Several years the TSX and I spent hours on highway 71 through West Texas and the road noise almost drove me out of my mind. Honda and Acura generally do a poor job with road noise isolation. I never thought I would wish I had been driving a Sonata instead of a TSX, but that day I would have made the switch in a nanosecond.
PJG,
You have an odd understanding of the word ‘dominate’. 7.1% market share is not ‘dominating’ anything, unless there are, oh, maybe 1000 major competitors.
Also, consider that WalMart is also growing and growing. Not because of high quality.
Oh, and “bravo” to Autosavant. The other dude just told us about his awesome car. But you actually demonstrated your mad arithmetic skillz!!1!
No less than 3 brand spanking new Elantra Tourings within a 4 block radius of my house. This is a Subaru/VW yuppy-ish kind of area.
The marketing campaign in Canada was brilliant. Not sure if you saw the commercials but they totally replicated the VW urban hipster campaign circa 2000. Of course VW subsequently screwed themselves with the shoddiest builds ever. I hear the Koreans actually fire employees for poor performance. There’s a concept in the auto industry.
I agree with FreedMike, put out a version with a more sporty engine, and I’ll be in the showroom for a test drive.
Flashpoint
Hyundai has some great models?
I’m not sure which ones they are. Everything they make looks cheap as hell.
If I was making less than $40,000 a year I’d probably opt for an Accord or even a Fusion.
Thank God I’ve got a huge portfolio and I can afford an S-class. I’ll never have to make those hard choices !
And I thank God I wasn’t born with an ego the size of Texas.
Seriously, you’re starting to sound like the typical attention-seeking broken record. No one cares about what you can/cannot afford.
Explaining away Hyundai’s success by saying that they offer big incentives does not work as a dismissal if the result is successful.
And the result is, as is clearly evident in the numbers. In fact, incentives are proving Hyundai’s point: that a market does indeed exist for a decent product at a decent price.
The fact that the other automakers are priced too high is not a tool to slam Hyundai. On the contrary, it is a tool to slam the other automakers.
Congratulations to Hyundai for recognizing a very simple marketing principle that WalMart started using long ago.
Of course, there is no need for Chrysler or GM to reduce their prices, since they are not in business to sell cars, nor do they make their money that way. Rather, they make their money by free taxpayer handouts, and thus does Congress and the Administration try to force prices to stay high.
Double congrats to Hyundai.
@John Horner
I can attest to the rattle-free nature of that car. Mine just rolled over 60k miles and it’s just like I bought it when it had 13k miles. As far as the basics are concerned my 07 Sonata has left me wanting for nothing and it goes about it’s business with zero issues.
Now, as far as spirited driving is concerned, grip is good especially with Kumho Ecsta ASX’s, but I wish it just cornered a little flatter.
“Explaining away Hyundai’s success by saying that they offer big incentives does not work as a dismissal if the result is successful.”
I for one am not trying to explain away anything. I’m saying that Hyundai is gaining market share against larger competitors by offering a good product with very agressive pricing.
Hyundai has the Japanese automakers scared to death. They see what Samsung has done to Sony and are scrambling to figure out how not to be next!
Explaining away Hyundai’s success by saying that they offer big incentives does not work as a dismissal if the result is successful.
If they gain market share without turning it into sustainable profitability, then they’ll become the next GM.
If Hyundai is going to prosper over the long run, it is going to have make the cars popular and desirable enough that they can raise prices. Discounting is a necessary step to getting into the market, but that isn’t something that they would want to do permanently.
Hyundai is fortunate to be carried in the interim by a lot of other businesses, such as shipping, and to have state support. I doubt that they could pull this off without having other lines of business and without having an implicit government guarantee.
If you follow the US auto industry the last few yeasrs, and the Hyundai group in particular, you’d be surprised how dysfunctional it was only a couple years ago, when the Koreans fired top US management and had problems communicating with them, and now that it can do no wrong!
You know what grinds my gears? People who comment in nearly every post that they have an S-Class. Whoop-dee-f’in-doo.
+1
And, this being the interwebs and all, his “S-class” is probably a clapped out ’79 380SE that he bought at a buy here/pay here for $1,800.
BTW, for the record, I drive a Saab 9000. I’ll try not to brag about it.
BTW, I disagree with one statement in the article. It’s not “the strength of the Won” (South Korean’s currency) – it is the weakness of the dollar which is the problem.
But if I attempt to explain why this is, I’ll be banned so I’ll shut up now. (And no, I wasn’t going to blame Bush or Obama solely, either one or the other, or both – it’s much more complex than that and goes back to roots starting in at least 1913).
# Flashpoint :
October 1st, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Hyundai has some great models?
I’m not sure which ones they are. Everything they make looks cheap as hell.
If I was making less than $40,000 a year I’d probably opt for an Accord or even a Fusion.
Thank God I’ve got a huge portfolio and I can afford an S-class. I’ll never have to make those hard choices !
———
Didn’t anyone tell already that your S550 is a POS?
It’s cheap and slow as compared to some of the better cars out there.
PartsUnknown :
October 2nd, 2009 at 9:57 am
And, this being the interwebs and all, his “S-class” is probably a clapped out ‘79 380SE that he bought at a buy here/pay here for $1,800.
——-
He said he drives an S550.
I strongly suggest Flashpoint to change his user id to “idrivembs550”. So that it will appear in every post (instead of the dozen I did see) he posts. And it will save some computing resource.
menno :
October 2nd, 2009 at 11:00 am
But if I attempt to explain why this is, I’ll be banned so I’ll shut up now. (And no, I wasn’t going to blame Bush or Obama solely, either one or the other, or both – it’s much more complex than that and goes back to roots starting in at least 1913).
—
+1
But no matter how complex, it’s still an amplified, sophisticate version of “Lord of the Flies.”
“Thank God I’ve got a huge portfolio and I can afford an S-class. I’ll never have to make those hard choices !”
Wagoner? Is that you?
his “S-class” is probably a clapped out ‘79 380SE that he bought at a buy here/pay here for $1,800.
I got ripped off. I paid $1,899 for mine!
Now, this is what I’m talking about.
Anybody else like the looks of the new 2011 Sonata?
Open this up and feel free to comment here at TTAC.
http://www.hyundai-blog.com/index.php/2009/09/17/2011-hyundai-sonata/
I personally like it. My ’08 Prius may go away next year – MPG’s are way down with E10 fuel anyway…. (then we’ll be a two Sonata family).
Menno
You’re giving up on Toyota?! You turncoat!
Hyundai-Kia are good, but I still think they have a way to go before they are on par with Toyota.
In the UK, Hyundai-Kia have insane levels of deprecation. A friend of my mine bought a 6 month old Hyundai Coupe for £15K. 4 years later he was struggling to sell it for £4K!
It was a good car, but if you do buy one it’s better to keep it to the death (or until the next Cash for Clunkers boondoggle) because it will lose money at a nightmare of a rate.
Wow, what is a Hyundai? Are they a new manufactureer like Toyota and that Hunda guy?
If I was making under $850K/y from interest payments alone, I’d be pretty worried. And I would be besides myself on what to drive or be driving in. I have a RR and a Bentley when I feel like being driven (because one of them is always in the shop, heh heh!) and few Spykers, an Enzo and some Lambos to pick from when I feel like driving. Thank God I have a huger portfolio so I would never be seen in a nouveau riche German rides like a MB or a BMW! A proper gentleman can imagine no such existence. I honestly don’t know how you people can live like that, no chauffer, doing your own shopping, and all that. I get tired just thinking about it, I’m going to need a bit of time on my private island.
Hi Katie
I’ll cross-shop a Toyota when I get to the point where the Prius goes away. But – wow, here in the states, Hyundai’s don’t depreciate as they do in the UK, not by any means. Naturally enough, Toyotas tend to depreciate a bit less, that’s true. But Hyundais tend to run as much as 30% less money here than new Toyotas, at least lately (since the Greater Depression set in). We picked up a brand new 2009 Hyundai Sonata 2.4 GLS automatic with power seats and all the niceties (and I added alloy wheels which I’d already bought for the ’07 snow tires, moved the summer tires to them) for $14,700. Thats 8900 pounds. That was literally 30.5% less than MSRP (manufacturer’s suggested retail price).
My watching my MPG’s go from 50ish (about 61 imperial MPG) on the Prius, down significantly, is really causing me heartburn.
But if I comment too strongly about who is behind much of this idiocy (hint: he just got elected and was ferried all over the mid-west in an Archer-Daniels-Midland aircraft at no cost during the election – ADM is a major ETHANOL producer) then I’ll be kicked out of here, so I’ll let you figure it out on your own.
Ethanol sux (and causes Prius’s to suck too).
If eventually I have to escape from/depart this country which I used to recognize and am able to do so, I guess I could do way worse than to escape to the UK. I’ve lived there twice, once for 2 years (thanks to the US military) and once for 7 years (my own choice). I know I can at least snag reliable nice Hyundai cars for a song, used….. plus I could snag a Sonata diesel, not sold here. Besides which, the way that Europe goes looks like the UK will be going soon…. “right turn, clyde” (thwack) (obscure movie reference…. )
Before some of you get all excited, (Go Hyundai GO!) there are certain major issues here still:
1. Hyundai funnels a large number to fleets (Number unknown)
2. Hyundai gives large rebates on most vehicles
3. Hyundai’s have shown extreme quality problems at 60000 miles (transmission, suspension, engine, hardware)
A number of you here don’t keep your cars long so the last point is very important….Hyundai is no Toyota. Period.
but its brand-new Forte replacement smashed the Spectra’s performance last September by logging 4,449 sales. Optima was a screamer as well, selling 5,986 compared to September 08’s 1,905
Not surprising as they’re well-priced, capable and very attractive new cars.
I’m confused as to what the problem with the Rondo is. I wouldn’t call it a “weak spot” at all: it’s actually a very good car and hits a sweet spot of versatility, capability and price. I’d have thought that it would have cleaned house in these times.
Fleet sales….gotta be.
At my workplace in Florida which is unionized Hyundai is becoming one of the most popular choices.
Before some of you get all excited, (Go Hyundai GO!) there are certain major issues here still:
1. Hyundai funnels a large number to fleets (Number unknown)
2. Hyundai gives large rebates on most vehicles
3. Hyundai’s have shown extreme quality problems at 60000 miles (transmission, suspension, engine, hardware)
A number of you here don’t keep your cars long so the last point is very important….Hyundai is no Toyota. Period.
1. Yes, and many of those fleet cars wind up in the hands of people like me. =) ’07 Optima driver, bought it at 7800 miles. 10,000 miles later, drives like a charm. Sister bought her ’02 Optima new and has logged 100k+ miles on it. Even though she dinged it up along the way, she’s had no problems.
2. That’s how Hyundai has been gaining marketshare in this recession. Hyundai has had to use low price leverage from the $/Korean Won valuation to teach American consumers that Hyundai/Kia cars ARE of equal or better quality than their Japanese counterparts.
You can’t compare a 1986 Hyundai Pony to a 2010 Corolla. And you can’t assume that all this heavy discounting will last forever. Do note that Toyota started out where Hyundai was not too long ago. If memory serves me correctly, Toyota sold their first 100,000 Camries well below profit margins to show consumers that their cars are indeed reliable. Before that, they were the laughing stock of the auto industry.
Read the other comments here and elsewhere on the web by Hyundai owners. It looks like the public’s sentiment of Hyundai has changed significantly. Now surveys show that the % of people who would consider buying a Hyundai is at 30%, up from 15%.
Once again, don’t assume the rebates will last forever. Too many people are taking their single-digit market share for granted. They’re coming, and they’re coming fast.
3. Hmmm, I don’t know! Lately I’ve been reading the quality reports, and that doesn’t seem to be the case. The Elantra for 2009 ranks higher than the Corolla. On some quality ratings, the Sonata ranks second only to the Camry. What cars do you speak of?
Oh and BTW…while I was researching cars, I read about some Acuras. Sad part is, your description applied to those better. Read all these complaints about the transmission failing at 60k.
4. You are right. Hyundai isn’t Toyota. It’s apples and oranges. But remember, Toyota was once in Hyundai’s shoes, and Hyundai’s market share keeps rising year after year.
I remember just 2-3 years back when their market share was just 4%. Now it’s past 7% and will surely hit 8% by October. I see an upward trend and an impending stock market rally on this one.
BTW…for your reading pleasure:
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9B2TGTG1.htm
Honda’s Ito acknowledged as possible threats the U.S. automakers, including General Motors Co. and Ford Motor Co., which have been reshaping their businesses and preparing smaller fuel-efficient models that are likely to better compete against Honda models.
But he appeared to be merely being polite in talking about the Americans and turned adamant when the topic became Hyundai.
“Its growth is fantastic,” said Ito.
LOL. Someone’s insecure!
Hyundai-Kias used to be total POS in the US too, and did depreciate like hell, I remember that god-awful Kia Sephia you could get used, 1-3 yrs old, for less than… $5k! But they have improved their models considerably since then, and resale values must have followed up. Not as good as Honda or Toyota resales, but much better than what they were.
DisturbedDriver,
I enjoyed the effort of your long response…however..
1. The fleet issue is not good for Hyundai in the long term…look at the domestics.
2. Too much rebates erode profits and brand image..look at domestics again.
AND Hyundai are not equal to their Japanese counterparts….I don’t care about 90 day quality surveys. Sorry.
3. I am comparing 2003-2005 Hyundai models to Japanese and Domestic ones. Not a 2009 Elantra. Not a 2009 Camry. I mean LONG TERM RELIABILITY.
Hyundai’s in this age with around 60000 or more miles develop serious mechanical problems with the transmission, suspension, engine, and hardware. This is based on friends of mine with Hyundai cars and friends that work in body shops.
4. Hyundais rise in market share as I noted before is questionable…..fleets anyone?
Honda/Acura transmission problems on certain V6 models is nothing new and is not wide spread, only effecting a few model years. That story has already been covered years ago, It has nothing to do with my original post…or this topic.
Just because you (or your sister) bought a Hyundai does not mean its a great, It was just your personal choice for whatever reason.
By the sounds of your post your the one that sounds insecure.
I actually kind of like the new Elantra Touring…but then, I’m one of only a handful of Americans that doesn’t see the need for bloated SUVs and pick-em-up trucks (see the sales leader postings from today). Haven’t driven one yet, but the two on the lot here looked very put together on the inside and cleanly styled on the outside. Hmmm…maybe it’s the 17 years I spent in Germany where wagons and hatches are perceived as useful means of transportation, not cheap-o econoboxes.
Some of us who probably DO have the fundage to purchase a S550 simply don’t need to make such an outrageous statement of our self-important wealth. Read “Rich Dad/Poor Dad” some day and realize that the vast majority of folks here in the States that are truly wealthy are the ones you’d never think had so much money.
Yes, Hyundai “only” has 7% of the market share…but their share is increasing. That says something.
Rockit,
1. I’d like a little more elaboration on that. But I agree with you at least on this part: Some number breakdowns would be nice. =)
2. Sure, but they’re still turning a profit this quarter. How many other automakers have been profitable? I’d say it’s impressive that Hyundai was able to earn $691 million vs Honda’s $81 million. Especially when you compare their market share. And the heavy discounting Hyundai’s doing. Imagine how much profit Hyundai would’ve gained if it hadn’t offered all those rebates and incentives. Yeah. The profit even during these harsh economic times would’ve gone well into the billions. Now that would’ve made one heck of a Wallstreet Journal Story. I myself would’ve been researching their stock ticket symbol.
Clearly one company’s business model’s working if it’s able to earn more on a per-car basis even with heavy discounting. Makes you kinda wonder, don’t it?
3. If you didn’t catch it in my last post, I’ll put it out here explicitly. You’re going off of anecdotal evidence. I need actual statistics and research showing that the transmission and/or engine in Hyundai and Kia cars aren’t built to last past 60,000 miles, which admittedly I’ll be skeptical before believing.
Why?
If that were truly the case, then Hyundai wouldn’t have any reason to ensure their cars for up to 100,000 miles. Generally you don’t see companies ensuring the powertrain for so many miles unless they’re confident their cars will last at least up to that point. Otherwise each car becomes a financial drain and the per-car profit margins become very slim.
4. You can only have so much of the 7% growth be the result of fleets. Once again, I’m a doubter when it comes to people attributing a phenomenom to one single cause. I’m more inclined to look into a multiplicity of factors taking place to cause a phenomenon before actually believing as an example that unicorns are the reason for Apple’s growing market share.
Oh and bro…I don’t work for Hyundai and I’m not a fan of fanboyism of companies and products.
But I AM a fanboy of underdogs, hard work, and improvement. =)
Oh and, judging someone to be insecure on the basis of his willingness to post a rebuttal doesn’t sound very logical to me. If we were to go off of your premises, then we could conclude that you yourself are insecure.
But I’d rather not resort to flinging senseless ad hominems. =)
You can only have so much of the 7% growth be the result of fleets.
During the first quarter, 33% of Hyundai and 35% of Kia sales went to fleets. http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/13/hyundai-and-kia-use-fleet-sales-to-boost-numbers/ Those sorts of figures are on par, or even higher, than what Detroit has traditionally done.
I doubt that much has changed since then. Hyundai is focusing on market share, not margins. That’s not necessarily a bad idea in the short run, but this is unsustainable for the long run.
DisturbedDriver,
1. Ok, yes numbers would be nice…but I still stand by the fleets. UPDATE*** Thnks Pch101!
2. I don’t really care what Hyundai earned. Unfortunately it is not relevant. The Hyundai Group is a large conglomerate that manufactures many products in different divisions that help each other financially, along with getting big tax breaks and subsidies from the South Korean government. So yes, that number is impressive. I’m not sure where you got it but If it is true I would take it with a grain of salt.
3. anecdotal evidence? Ok. The story about your sister is anecdotal evidence. Hyundai’s from those years are in the same league as cavaliers and other junky domestic cars.
Hyundai does not offer the same 100,000/10 Year Warranty in Canada, where I live.
The Hyundai warranty in the states is full of holes and was stated on THIS SITE that out of all the major manufactures it has the most loop holes and least coverage.
4. Ok! Sure! Growth is fleets AND people buying cars cause they have $3000-$4000 on the hood in rebates! People buy based on price only all time.
Apple Computers? Come on.
Underdogs don’t get financial help from their governments and/or corporate family friends. It would be nice if more car companies could build in South Korea…but wait, they can’t. Hyundai controls 70% on the South Korea market…no underdogs here bro.
You mentioned the insecure comment, in that long response where you mentioned you owned a Kia. I think that answers that. I was just stating facts.
You not a Hyundai fanboy? :P
Rockit,
1. Once again, I need real numbers, not just a citation of another poster. That’s simply another form of anecdotal evidence which as I mentioned before, is usually something I take with a grain of salt. I need hard numbers. Otherwise, I’ll take the newspaper articles, the magazine pages, the quarterly and year-on-year earnings, the sales figures, and the fact that I’ve been seeing a lot more new Hyundai SUVs, Sonatas, and Elantras on the road lately than usual as proof over your citation of another poster who BTW had his comment called into question by another poster. Until I get solid numbers, you’re just spouting the same old “rental fleet” evidence over and over.
2. The profit/revenue numbers weren’t posted for Hyundai conglomerate as a group, otherwise the profit figures would’ve been bloated into the billions of dollars.
Once again, the numbers mentioned before were for Hyundai Motor. Mitsubishi and Toyota are conglomerates as well, yet we compare sales and profits figures for their automotive companies. Also, Hyundai as a larger conglomerate according to what some Korea experts have been telling me probably has well over $100 billion in assets sheltered in Korea from the eyes of the Korean government. We can discuss that for another day.
3. Difference between your posts and mine is that I don’t use anecdotal evidence to constitute support for my whole argument. =P It was simply to make a point that Korean cars aren’t the pieces of junk they once were. The warranty as you should know is a relatively new development for Hyundai. It came about not long after their quality improved. Maybe you should note that.
4. Once again, you’re drawing unwarranted extrapolations. Nowhere in my post did I imply or state that I’m a fanboy. Fanboys rely on illogically constructed arguments with anecodotal evidence and fudged up numbers to support them. My ownership of a Kia by no means makes me a fanboy. If we used ownership of a particular product as a basis for labeling someone a fanboy, then we’d all be fanboys of hundreds or perhaps thousands of products! Sadly, it’s a weak argument.
All you did there was draw a link between my ownership of a Kia and get the words “fanboy” and “insecure” out of my comment and somehow draw the conclusion that I’m a fanboy. Back in academia, we used to call that logic fail.
Allow me to clarify: I mentioned the insecure comment part in relation to the Honda executive. If you somehow took offense at that and thought I was calling you insecure, I apologize…but you should go back and reread my comment. The part where I cite the Honda executive wasn’t directed at you really. If you take the time to read the link proved, and if you know how to read paragraphs and quotes solely in their context, you wouldn’t have gratuitously taken offense if that’s what you did.
BTW, the Apple reference was just a side analogy. Apple’s rise in marketshare as another example can’t be attributed to one single factor. There are plenty of articles that address them.
The more I exchange comments with you, the more logical holes I see in them. It brings me to wonder what other logical fallacies might arise. I’ll be around for most of the day, so keep talking. =)
If you really want me to give you credibility, you can start giving me hard facts and numbers. Don’t just dismiss the sales figures and the profits figures and simply draw the ill-conceived guess that the profit figures were for Hyundai as a conglomerate. Otherwise we’d have to tally up all the cars sold worldwide and other products sold which weren’t included in Wallstreet Journal’s numbers. Try not to commit the error of relying solely on anecdotal evidence. Try doing your own research. Yes, mentioning that I own a car of a certain brand simply to state that the cars lasted for some time is anecdotal evidence in it of itself. But it’s been common knowledge and fact that Hyundai cars aren’t what they were in the 1980s. Go check JD Powers. Go check up on Autopacific’s ratings. Try doing some real research. Don’t rely on some other unreliable poster’s word.
EDIT: I studied the numbers. I rechecked some of the calculations done., Even when you leave out the increase fleet sales, that leaves Hyundai at -7.5% in sales vs the industrywide average of -30% in the first quarter of 2009. Good day.
DisturbedDriver
1. Fleets and rebate offers spur sales of cheap cars. period. Again thnks phc101
2. You dont understand understand, Ya it says Hyundai Automotive sales however since Hyundai is part of that conglomerate that is known to pad the numbers of its fellow divisions…(the same conglomerate where the Hyundai ceo was arrested for embezzlement)
3. The warranty started in 2000 in the states. Does not cover second owners and full of loopholes. Hyundai quality of cars 5+ years old (60000 miles+) is still below average. Your short term quality surveys mean nothing. Look at my last post.
4. Fanboys go on and rant. You brought it up yourself. Ok fine. Your not a fanboy.
Hyundai cars yes are better than the 80’s (duh)
Hyundai cars have simply not yet proven to be quality for the long haul (5-10 years). If you want to believe otherwise, go right ahead.
I need real numbers
Automotive News isn’t good enough for you? That’s the source of Autoblog’s information: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090413/ANA03/904130334/1178
If you were to get your data from Fleet Central, the primary trade publisher for the fleet industry, you would get these fleet figures for the first half of the 2008 model year:
Hyundai Accent – 14.8%
Hyundai Azera – 25.3%
Hyundai Elantra – 21.7%
Hyundai Sonata – 40.2%
Kia Amanti – 0.6%
Kia Optima – 36.6%
Kia Rio – 30.1%
Kia Spectra – 32.6%
Of those, the Sonata was the biggest seller, and those fleet sales were off the charts. To compare, more Sonatas went to rental during that period than did Dodge Calibers.
Hyundai incentives tend to run above the industry average, below the domestics but well above Toyota and Honda. Here are the August figures, prior periods are similar: http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/156366/article.html
Sorry, but no one who has the facts can deny Hyundai’s reliance on low prices, high incentives and fleet sales. If you have data that contradicts this, then the burden to provide it is on you. You don’t have much right to demand “hard numbers” from everyone else when you don’t provide any at all.
@PCH101
I think I already addressed those numbers:
EDIT: I studied the numbers. I rechecked some of the calculations done., Even when you leave out the increase fleet sales, that leaves Hyundai at -7.5% in sales vs the industrywide average of -30% in the first quarter of 2009. Good day.
So even when accounting for fleet sales, that doesn’t translate into +26% auto sales. Sorry, but that’s not good enough. Once again, I need more numbers beyond that. I saw those numbers a while back and they just illustrate that Hyundai and Kia sell vehicles to rental fleets. So what? What company doesn’t? I don’t wish to come off sounding rude, but I’ve been to rentals a few times in my life and I’ve seen a variety of vehicles. I visited a rent-a-car 3 miles from my house as one example and saw all kinds of cars from GM, Toyota, and Hyundai. You see my point? I won’t disagree that a large portion of Hyundai’s sales go to fleet rentals. But that portion doesn’t account for the rise in Hyundai sales.
Sorry, but no one who has the facts can deny Hyundai’s reliance on low prices, high incentives and fleet sales. If you have data that contradicts this, then the burden to provide it is on you. You don’t have much right to demand “hard numbers” from everyone else when you don’t provide any at all.
No one here ever denied Hyundai relies on low prices and high incentives. Stating that I argued otherwise is a strawman. But the part that’s questionable is that they rely completely on fleet sales. Sorry, but the burden of proof lies with the person making a new argument, which is that Hyundai’s rise in car sales are completely the result of fleet sales. I read that article some time back, and once again…even with the numbers, Hyundai’s sales for consumer sales still showed them outperforming the industry average. If they’re doing better than the industry decline in Q1 of -30% even when taking out fleet sales, that truly brings into question the argument that you and rockit are bringing in. Try paying attention to what the figures represent rather than just to the figures themselves.
So far, you’ve done a much better job of the research portion, which is why I give you kudos…
However…
@rockit
Every warranty comes with fine print. No fine print leaves open plenty of wiggle room for abuse. Not that abuse never occurs. But I did my research before buying my car. There were two requirements that must be satisfied to qualify for the powertrain warranty in the event of a tranny breakdown:
1. Your transmission fluid change is carried out using Kia’s own proprietary fluid. A small setback as long as you have a dealership using that fluid.
2. You maintain paper records showing that you did all the necessary transmission fluid changes every 30,000.
I verified this with a couple of other dealers and even a maintenance center before I went and signed the papers. Trust me, I was once as skeptical as you. It took a lot of research but it proved rewarding.
Once again, all you’ve done is go off of another poster’s source. Yes, rental sales account for a portion of Hyundai’s sales but they don’t account completely for the 26% figure published in this article. You are belaboring a point different from what I’ve been trying to get a discussion going on about. PCH’s numbers are correct. Once again, rental sales are a part of Hyundai’s sales. But they don’t do much to support your theory (yes, it’s a theory until I get more numbers) that the 26% rise in car sales was the result of rental sales.
So what? What company doesn’t?
(This sounds like a replay of what happens with the domestic fanboys. They just can’t believe it.)
No, Hyundai fleet sales are well above those of Toyota, which typically run 10-12% of total sales, and Honda, which has virtually none. As noted by Automotive News, Hyundai is running at about one-third, which is what we would have expected from Chrysler in the bad old days.
So no, you’re incorrect, and you’ve provided absolutely no facts to prove your claims. I know that you don’t want to deal with the truth, but the truth is quite different from what you believe it to be.
Provide me with hard data that disproves my point, and I’ll listen. Until then, I won’t.
all you’ve done is go off of another poster’s source.
This is a disingenuous statement. The data came from Automotive News, a reputable trade well known in the business. Whether I posted it or someone else posted it doesn’t matter — the source is clearly legitimate.
So no, you’re incorrect, and you’ve provided absolutely no facts to prove your claims. I know that you don’t want to deal with the truth, but the truth is quite different from what you believe it to be.
Incorrect about what? I’ve been addressing the issue of whether rental fleets have accounted for the rise in Hyundai sales year after year. Yes, a good portion of Hyundai’s sales go to rental fleets…I think I’ve already stated that at least twice so far. The question I’ve been posing is, can we honestly say that the +26% rise is solely due to rentals? This isn’t the first time this same question has been posed. I believe some time back in another auto blog I read, another poster concluded back around Q1 2009 (around the time your first article was posted) even when taking into account auto sales to rental fleets, Hyundai’s sales still fell roughly by only -7.5%.
Once again, I don’t deny the facts, nor am I a partisan of some sorts as someone else has been suspecting me of being. =) I’m just questioning whether we can so quickly jump to conclusions about Hyundai’s fleet sales. If I’m not wrong, they’ve always constituted a large percentage and some here believe that the rise is solely due to rental sales. I’m not buying that until I see other numbers showing that only recently Hyundai’s consumer sales dropped while it sold cars en masse to rental fleets to overcompensate for the losses. I’ve looked all around, and I haven’t seen such numbers. I won’t conclude from this that Hyundai has never engaged in such a practice, which is why I’m leaving the question open.
Ed has to do a better job regarding looking at all the data (instead of just 1 month) before coming to conclusions about a particular model.
Saying that the Soul has not proven to be a mainstreet hit based on Sept. sales of about 2,500 is WRONG and misleading.
In the 6 months that the Soul has fully been available for sale in the US, Kia has moved over 24,000 units of the Soul (about a 4k monthly clip).
The drop in sales may be due to a supply issue after the big clash for clunkers month (the Nissan Cube also saw a precipitous drop in sales from August).
In comparison, Toyota w/ a full year (up to end of Sept.) of sales has sold less xBs (about 4k less or roughly a 2,300 monthly clip).
As for the Genesis sales being up 60% from Sept. of last year, that stat is a bit misleading since the Genesis sedan had been on the US market for only a couple of months w/ the coupe not available until this year.
Genesis sales actually dropped from August of this year (about 2,300) – while the sedan is doing reasonably well, it appears that the sales of the coupe has thus far been underwhelming (may be a supply issue w/ the most desirable variants hard to come by).
Sales of the Sportage is actually doing pretty well (esp. considering its a model on its last legs and due soon for a replacement) – compared to last year, sales year to date are up significantly 38,900 to 27,800.
Most of Hyundai’s and Kia’s lineup will be replaced next year (or the following year) – the Sonata, Elantra, Tuscon, Accent, Optima, Sportage, Amanti, etc. – we’re likely to see an even bigger increase in sales by Hyundai/Kia.