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We thought the Lexus HS250h would be a cynical rebadge of the Prius with a little more power. We were wrong. The HS was marginally unique enough, but then ToMoCo went and cynically reabdged it as a Toyota and called it the Sai. Sigh. It hasn’t been confirmed for the US yet, but if it is, there’s not much breathing room between the $22k Prius and the $26k Camry Hybrid. Nor would there be much reason left to buy an HS.
29 Comments on “What’s Wrong With This Picture: Rebadging The Rebadge Edition...”
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Toyota is the new GM…
Sliding slowly, but steadily.
It’s JDM only. Toyota’s market share and product mix is so huge/wide in Japan, that they will easily squeeze this one into their lineup. Hybrids are even more popular in Japan than they are in the U.S. So another solid hybrid offering to their market will only increase Toyota’s sales.
If you look at most US Lexus models, they are/were Toyota models in Japan. This won’t be coming to the US w/ a Toyota badge.
There’s probably a few ways this could work…
First, the Japanese are nutty for fuel economy and appear to love hybrids. Having another model in almost any tiny slice of segment will probably work to some extent – and this is a Japanese announcement. The hs250 had 10K orders in Japan and something similar in a Toyota costume would probably sell pretty well.
Second, maybe Toyota’s going to eliminate the Camry hybrid. That car has a few shortcomings (trunk space) and a more purpose-built hybrid would probably offer some advantages.
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Stingray,
Let’s wait until they actually build some bad cars before we spend a lot of time digging a grave for them. It might be a rebadge but it’s still a pretty good car. They’re not rebadging a Cutlass as a Malibu.
Toyota is the new GM…
Getting there, but I think Mercedes is the luxury version of GM.
Regrettably, my wife has suddenly decided that that Lexus is the right car for us. Although I’ve experienced a brief reprieve while she celebrated the passing of Saturn, this will come up again soon.
Has anyone had any firsthand experience with that Lexus hybrid?
As much as I don’t really want to stick up for Toyota on this, I feel like I have to. While I might consider this a “bad car”, I don’t have a problem with badge engineering on the whole (VW/Audi for instance), or even in this particular instance. They added content to the Camry to push the, godawful, ES line, but it makes them money. They may have the released the luxury version first this time, but essentially this is the same thing, and to my mind doing it this way makes more sense. It may be silly, but it does sound more appealing to buy a decontented Lexus than a tarted up Toyota.
There will always be suckers, the people who buy the ES and HS are the same fools who go for FWD Audi’s. They are legion.
I think the problem is that the cars aren’t designed to be good at a wide variety of tasks, not that they resemble each other too closely. It’s easy to hate on Toyota in a general, and innaccurate, manner because of this flaw.
If you look at most US Lexus models, they are/were Toyota models in Japan. This won’t be coming to the US w/ a Toyota badge.
Good point, and one that is important to understand. Every dedicated Lexus has been a Toyota in Japan until very recently. The Toyota Aristo was discontinued in favour of the GS, the Altezza for the IS, etc. I’m still not quite sure why they did that, but it seems to be working well enough and henceforth, if it’s a Lexus anywhere, it’s a Lexus everywhere.
The HS and LX are the exceptions to the above rule**: it’s blatantly based off the JDM Allion, which shares some guts with the global Avensis. This car isn’t so much an HS rebadge as it is a hybrid Allion.
The point about this not coming to America is important: the Japanese don’t really care that the HS is a badge job because branding doesn’t quite work the same way there (exhibit A: the V12 Toyota Century) as it does here. As such, it’s not really brand erosion, not when it exists in a country where branding is far more elastic then we’re used to.
It also doesn’t matter since the Camry Hybrid is really quite large for the JDM, and that said market is crammed with multiple, short-lived variations and sizes.
** No, the ES does not count. It’s sufficiently different from the Camry, despite what armchair quarterbacks think. I’d also expect the Land Cruiser to go away or shrink dramatically in it’s next iteration, leaving just the LX.
No-one took me up on it last time I mentioned it, but I’m lead to believe that’s the new Corolla platform under there. Drive-train(s) too.
If they can hit Corolla price points, goodnight everyone else.
Hybrids everywhere….
(Since that time, my source went deep underground however, sorry).
@ NickR
Don’t be sad – grab a used GS450h if you can find one.
Has anyone had any firsthand experience with that Lexus hybrid?
I saw one at my last dealer visit. It’s actually very, very nice inside—certainly class-competitive. It’s also very, very small inside (though not so much as the IS) and, in darker colours, kind of ugly. If you want an urban Lexus but need something less driver-focused than the IS (or want to carry people who aren’t either midgets or amputees) it’s very good.
It’s problem is that it stands out against the more cohesive Lexus designs (the IS, GS, LS and GX) and not in a good way. It looks, honestly, like a small Buick Lacrosse. I can’t tell if this is Lexus’ new design language (the RX shares some elements of this design) or just a rushed Lexification (as the original IS was) of a very nice JDM Toyota.
No-one took me up on it last time I mentioned it, but I’m lead to believe that’s the new Corolla platform under there.
Nope, it shares the Avensis’ platform, which makes it kin to the Scion tC we have here, though the tC is an older iteration.
Official pics of the Toyota Sai haven’t been released yet – will it be a reskin, or a rebadge?
There will always be suckers, the people who buy the ES and HS are the same fools who go for FWD Audi’s.
I’d say no. Audis are very nice cars regardless of ratio of push to pull: you get a very nice interior, great seats, good ride and more comprehensive features. Why buy AWD if you don’t need it, or don’t want the extra mass, friction and fuel use?
Unlike Audi and the French marques (but like, say, Acura) the ES and LS are statistically more likely to be reliable cars. Again, you could get a rear-driver, but why? If your aim is to efficiently commute in comfort and luxury and carry more than one or two people, these cars work. All rear- or all-wheel drive get you is more fuel used and less cabin space.
what an awful looking car!
I have not yet understood Lexus.
They are capable of and have in the past built some nice cars however recently they are bringing out cars that are not only ugly but are very poor on performance!
The Japanese domestic market works in mysterious ways. Don’t forget that Toyota used to have three separate sales channels (dealer networks). They may still. The 250h is a re-skinned Avensis. They thrive on badge engineering; or at least, used to.
@ psarhjinian
Maybe you’re a complete generation cycle out in NA.
Check out Verso(Corolla)/Avensis on the UK site.
~2700mm wheelbase Verso/Avensis/New-Corolla/Lexus-HS.
“I’d say no. Audis are very nice cars regardless of ratio of push to pull: you get a very nice interior, great seats, good ride and more comprehensive features.”
Right, but you can also get very, very close to Audi interior quality and content with an optioned VW, and there really isn’t a (meaningful) mechanical difference/driving experience without quattro. I don’t have a problem with the badge engineering as I won’t be paying a 10-15K premium for a label, but I consider it a sucker’s proposition all the same. I approve only because it means a better VW must be produced.
“No, the ES does not count. It’s sufficiently different from the Camry”
Really? I dated a girl who’s parents owned two and they were Camrys, full stop. They handled and drove just as poorly and had the same exact profile, the only difference I could see was wood grain, some no value added gizmos and decent leather. The only problem from where I’m sitting is that they paid probably 5x as much as those options were worth by getting them with the Lexus badge attached. I thought the cars were shockingly (even dangerously for the brand’s sake) close to the Camry.
Peter Moran,
What “new Corolla” are you referring too? The current 2010 Corolla, and its euro counterpart, the Auris, sit on a shorter 2600/102″ wheelbase than the Avensis.
The Verso is an extended-length Auris, and rides on an even longer 2780 mm wheelbase.
I se no reason to buy the stupid HS, which can’t even get 35 MPG, and is as small, or smaller inside, than the excellent new Prius, which can get well over 50 MPG.
“NickR :
October 1st, 2009 at 10:43 am
Toyota is the new GM…
Getting there, but I think Mercedes is the luxury version of GM.
Regrettably, my wife has suddenly decided that that Lexus is the right car for us. Although I’ve experienced a brief reprieve while she celebrated the passing of Saturn, this will come up again soon.
Has anyone had any firsthand experience with that Lexus hybrid?”
With the same or much less $ your wife wants to spend on this awful vehicle, you can buy the only Real lExus, the one that made the brand’s name, the LS460 or 430! Even certified used.
@ PeteMoran
The current Verso would be the Avensis-based Verso, right? Not the old Corolla Verso or current Auris.
They used to use “Verso” to mean “Tall Wagon”, sort of like VW’s use of “Plus” in “Golf Plus”There did used to be a Corolla Verso, as well as a (dramatically goofy) Yaris Verso.
With the same or much less $ your wife wants to spend on this awful vehicle, you can buy the only Real lExus, the one that made the brand’s name, the LS460 or 430! Even certified used.
There’s no “real” Lexuses until very, very recently. The LS lived a double-life as the Toyota Celsior for most of it’s run, and also plays a second (third?) fiddle to the never-been-a-Lexus Century.
If you mean “real” as in “rear-drive and nicely appointed”, the Century, LS, GS, SC and second IS are all “real”. If you mean “started life as a Lexus” then you’re kind of thin on the ground: only models released since 2005 fit that criteria.
“There’s no “real” Lexuses until very, very recently. The LS lived a double-life as the Toyota Celsior for most of it’s run, and also plays a second (third?) fiddle to the never-been-a-Lexus Century.”
Who cares about the far uglier versions they sell in japan? I was talking about the US market, of course, where the LS is the undisputed KING of the Lexus brand, and, just as I said, is the lexus that made the brand’s name HERE in the US. I would care less what happens in Japan, India or Indonesia for that matter. But I have seen pics of these Centurys and Crowns and they look GOD AWFUL on the outside. Like 60s POS.
“If you mean “real” as in “rear-drive and nicely appointed”, the Century, LS, GS, SC and second IS are all “real”.”
ONLY the LS has been a WINNER of all of these, the others FAILED to compeve against the 3 series (IS), E class or 5 series (GS) and whatever the hell the awful SC competes with (the SL? LOL).
I am talking about US SALES NUMBERS AND PROFITS here, ie, Facts.
” If you mean “started life as a Lexus” then you’re kind of thin on the ground: only models released since 2005 fit that criteria.”
The LS 400, as far as I am concerned, and as far the 310,000,000 US consumers are concerned, was BRAND NEW to the US market, regardless if it had a BUTT UGLY cousin that sold 4 copies to thhe Japanese royal family and a few Yakuza gangsters in Ginza.
The LS 400, as far as I am concerned, and as far the 310,000,000 US consumers are concerned, was BRAND NEW to the US market, regardless if it had a BUTT UGLY cousin that sold 4 copies to thhe Japanese royal family and a few Yakuza gangsters in Ginza.
The LS/Celsior was the same car in Japan, save for the corner mirrors. You’re thinking about the Century, which is a larger, more expensive and more exclusive car.
Just to clarify: your definition of Lexus is “the car that succeeds for the brand in North America?” So by the yardstick, the ES and RX—especially the RX—are the Real American Lexuses. And by that measure, the only real Mercedes are the E and S-Classes, and the only real BMW the 3-Series. The only real Acura is the Integra.
And I think the Yakuza favour Mercedes, IIRC.
@ Paul Niedermeyer and psarhjinian
Well, my information is the upcoming Corolla/Auris/Verso/Avenis/Lexus-HS will all be the same car in all markets in the next product cycle on 2700mm rather than 2600mm.
The Lexus HS is the first of them.
Toyota did not establish the Lexus brand in Japan until 2005. The original LS400 was indeed sold in Japan as a Toyota, but even in Japan, it was an entirely new design — it’s not like they just pulled something off the shelf and slapped a Lexus badge on it. http://ateupwithmotor.com/model-histories/luxury-and-personal-luxury-cars/180-lexus-ls400.html
The old SC coupe was a more complicated story. Toyota sold in Japan as the third-generation Toyota Soarer, but the design was developed in California as a Lexus. It introduced the platform of the 1993-1998 Supra, but its suspension was a stiffened-up version of the LS400, as was the V8.
Toyota has had a hard time with the Lexus brand in the home market, from what I understand. Japanese luxury buyers tend to prefer the Germans.
I’ve said it before and will say it again:
Eco-models in luxury car lines = epic fail. What’s the point?
Lexus, until recently, did not exist in Japan. So it makes sense that this would be a badge job in Japan only. Also, Japan does not get the American Camry or ES350. In fact, most Toyota’s that are sold in the states are not sold in Japan.
quote: Corolla/Auris/Verso/Avenis/Lexus-HS will all be the same car in all markets in the next product cycle on 2700mm rather than 2600mm.
Corolla vs Avensis platforms are in whole different ballparks. They were, are and will be. Corolla/Auris/Verso are competing with Golf class cars in Europe, but Avensis is substatially longer, with longer wheelbase and wider track – direct Passat competitor.
@ Brock_Landers (excellent username – where’s Roller Girl)
Corolla/Auris/Verso are competing with Golf class cars in Europe, but Avensis is substatially (sic) longer, with longer wheelbase….
The Verso and Avensis have a 2700mm wheelbase not different ones, also the Lexus HS.
They were, are and will be.
Well, maybe currently. The future is the future. Toyota are reviewing every platform. Where they can combine they will, Prius included. That’s my information, so we shall see.