In 2007, over 120,000 Civic Hybrid owners had a beef with Honda. So much so, in fact, that they sued the Japanese company. What do you reckon the reason could be? Unsafe cars? Think again. Poor build quality? No, they sued Honda because their Civic Hybrids didn’t get the stated fuel mileage. New York Times’ Wheels Blog reports that 2 plantiffs, John True of Ontario, California, and Gonzalo Delgado of Chino Hills California along with 120,000 other Honda Civic Hybrid owners argued in the United States District Court for the Central District of California that they were only getting 31 mpg instead of the advertised 49mpg in the city and 51 mpg on the highway. The plaintiffs believe that Honda’s advertising led them to believe that the Civic Hybrid would get better fuel economy than is likely in real world driving. Needless to say, the plaintiffs weren’t challenging the EPA methods of predicting mileage, just that Honda, allegedly, deceived customers by not making it clear that they were unlikely to achieve the EPA figures. Honda, naturally, have a different take.
They believe that assertions against them are illogical. The EPA tested the vehicle and gave the car a rating. They also say they followed all federal regulations and refuse to admit to any wrongdoing. What makes this story even more bizarre is the outcome. Honda, for whatever reason has decided on a settlement. What has been proposed is that Mr True will receive $12,500, Mr Delgado will receive $10,000 and the remaining 120,000 unhappy Civic hybrid owners will get, at most, a coupon for $1000 off a new Honda. And as with every coupon, there’s small print. The coupon isn’t valid for the Insight, Civic Hybrid, Fit or any certified used Honda or Acura. The coupon cannot be transferred and the current hybrid must be sold or traded in. If that settlement doesn’t grab the plaintiffs, then there are 2 more options: A $500 discount for a customer who doesn’t want to sell their Civic Hybrid or $100 cash. “The purchaser of a Honda Civic Hybrid is a person who is interested in fuel economy,” said Clarence Ditlow, the Executive director of the Centre for Auto Safety, “So, the settlement allows them to buy any vehicle but a fuel-efficient vehicle. In other words, you get a coupon for the purchase of a vehicle that you don’t want.” pointing out the obvious flaw with Honda’s proposed settlement. But Mr Ditlow forgot to mention the cherry on the settlement: Honda will also throw in a DVD on getting better fuel economy. At least Honda didn’t take the condescension any further and include a copy of “An Inconvenient Truth.”
Facepalm on both sides. Actually, Honda probably saved a lot in legal fees to shut these two jokers up, as well as the blowhards riding their class-action coattails (at relatively little cost).
31 MPG in real world city driving really isn’t that great for a compact hybrid. I think anyone who had paid the hybrid premium ($24K for a Civic) really has a right to expect better than that.
They have the “right” if you assume they drive the car carefully/properly.
Another “junk” lawsuit that I’m sure made the lawyers a lot of money. Be assured the next Honda you buy will cost a few dollars more thanks to these jokers.
By law, automakers must post the EPA mileage rating on their vehicles along with an estimated fuel cost. The testing procedures have never reflected real driving conditions. In 2007 the EPA began modifying their tests with computer modeling of driving conditions resulting in lower but still unrealistic mpg numbers. Even so, the EPA methodology continues to overestimate mpg especially for hybrids. Because the EPA derives its baseline estimates from tailpipe emissions diesel performance has tended to be understated in the past. The advent of clean diesel engines probably reduces the error.
There is no reason that Honda should have settled the case.
They settled the case because they didn’t want more attention drawn to the large disparity between the EPA ratings for their hybrid and reality.
While some may call this a junk case, if my car delivered 18 MPG less than promised I would be unhappy as well as this goes well beyond the normal YMMV variances.
Shouldn’t they be suing the EPA, if anyone? Honda would be foolish NOT to be tuning their cars specifically for the EPA test cycle. BTW, the revised EPA test has knocked down the 07 Civic hybrid to 40/45.
The EPA test is a legitimate measure because it is scientific and reproducible, but that doesn’t mean it’s the only test that should be used. However, some random person stating “I get 31mpg driving the Civic hybrid” in itself tells us little to nothing because it gives no information on driving conditions and behavior.
Hmm.
If the suit had merit, it makes one question a hybrid’s true value. I already do.
If the suit had no merit, Honda shouldn’t have settled.
My lemon suit against Honda settled for a mere $1700 (05 Odyssey) for real actual problems. These plaintiffs are getting half their money back for arguably a non-problem (driving style, road conditions, etc.?). And the remaining clingons in the suit just receive an insult in return.
I suspect Honda is just trying to make this go away, and not expose a performance discrepancy between the EPA test and actual road conditions on this particular vehicle.
Just wait until the 230 mpg Volt hits the fan; this suit will look like a picnic.
You mean the volt ISN’T going to put out 230 mpg? :o
If the suit had no merit, Honda shouldn’t have settled.
Lawsuits with little or no merit get settled all the time. Settling is often much cheaper than successfully defending a lawsuit. Much less time-consuming, as well.
@TZ:
I understand that, but Honda settling this case makes them look guilty of something. If they truly believed the mileage claim for the car was accurate, they should not have settled. It would have been cheaper to re-run the tests to prove their side, but now it looks like they simply caved and won’t stand by their testing or the product.
By the way, the attorney’s fees for plaintiffs in this case are close to $3 million:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/16/honda-plans-to-settle-civic-hybrid-mileage-suit-out-of-court-is/
@;gslippy; Touché about th 230mpg Volt. What a crock of bull that is!
This suit is a junk suit, though. As far as I’m concerned, *no* car gets the EPA (or Environment Canada here) ratings. As <i>Redrum</i> says, the EPA test is legitimate and good because it is scientific and reproducible — you need a test like that to be able to compare apples to apples when shopping cars.
But since you’ll always get blowhards who’ll complain about anything, I’m thinking a good modification to the standardized tests is to: perform them as they are today, then deduct 35% from the results.
Hm, I almost always beat the epa ratings of my vehicles without trying, unless I’m doing very short trips (sub 10 mile)
I always have too. Except freeway driving in my Impreza, which does worse than the 29 mpg the window sticker stated because the test was never ran at the 70mph speed that I drive at. The revised numbers are 26mpg, which is about right.
My old Passat had a 24mpg highway number, but I could easily do 28mpg if I drove it around 80mph. It was more suited for the higher speeds.
I think the EPA hihway test should be at the avarage speed American drivers drive on the freeway. A highway test that bever takes vehicle speed above 60mph isn’t realistic for the real world.
Same here……
My 07 Mustang GT’s rated 17/25 (old standard) and I get 19/27.
06 Civic — EPA 30/38 (old standard), me 36/41.
It depends on how you drive……….
Honda knowingly plastered the car and all advertising with mileage numbers they knew were about TWICE what the consumer would ever get.
Honda pointing to the government and saying “THEY MADE US DO IT!” is a non-starter.
Better than even odds both the Honda and the EPA will get a judge’s boot up the backside if it ends up in court. Wrong by double is not a gray area.
Funny ’cause we have customers that match/beat the EPA numbers with their ’06 up Hybrid Civics.
Reminds me of a customer who came in complaining that their newish Accord didn’t get close to the EPA ratings. Could find nothing wrong with the car. Manager finally interviewed the owner to find out she sits in the parked car with the engine at idle, eating her lunch, for an hour EVERY DAY!!!…and she was still pissed at us (and Honda) when told this was likely the cause of her poor fuel econ. and there was nothing wrong with the car.
CarPerson, before you conclude “wrong by double is not a gray area”, you better prove it’s actually “wrong by double.”
On the one hand, we have the EPA figure. On the other hand, what mpg figure do they have? 31mpg? Is that the number everyone suing Honda have? What a coincidence. Do they have independent legal verification for each case?
By law, auto manufacturers in the US are not allowed to advertise fuel economy numbers other than the EPA ratings. In 2008, the rating system was changed to better reflect real-world numbers, especially with hybrids, but they’re still slightly on the high side if you ask me.
If Plaintiffs have a sharp law firm that is able to prove buyers buy this vehicle BECAUSE of the mileage, the vehicle is mechanically sound, is being operated within “normal and expected” bounds, and the law firm can suppress the fact that gasoline in the United States is poorer than many third-world countries, they have a fair shot at it.
Like I said above, better than even odds a judge will give it to them if they really have it covered.
If Plaintiffs win, it opens up a nasty can of worms for all manufacturers and the EPA.
Only an idiot would play with this kind of fire. You settle for few bucks and stay the hell out of the courtroom.
If Plaintiffs have a sharp law firm that is able to prove buyers buy this vehicle BECAUSE of the mileage, the vehicle is mechanically sound, is being operated within “normal and expected” bounds, and the law firm can suppress the fact that gasoline in the United States is poorer than many third-world countries, they have a fair shot at it.
If there is any type of car that bought with mileage as the primary reason for purchase, this is it. However, what is Honda really guilty of? Well, deceit comes to mind. Without question, they used the results of the EPA test like any other maker but they knew that the results were not even remotely achievable by even the mileage-minded driver that this car is aimed at. But Honda has no choice but to use the EPA results as that is the law. So, a choice has to be made. Either downplay the estimates or trump them up to max out sales even if your reputation suffers. Seems that Toyota isn’t the only one who has pulled a few pages from the GM playbook…
Nobody’s mentioned the fact that E10 has become required in California right around this time and has become prevailant in most gas stations across the fruited plain.
I can’t get real 100% gasoline for my 2008 Prius any more and my MPG’s are down to 39 from the usual 44 in winter time. Last winter, it had dropped to 33, a 25% reduction from the winter before – when I could locate real gasoline.
The only reason it’s 39 now, I suspect, is because I’m using Top Tier gasoline (ok E10) as recommended by Toyota – Shell is the only fuel I can buy in my area which is Top Tier.
The thing is? My wife’s Sonata (2009 4 cylinder) is getting over 31 miles per gallon.
Hybrids are no longer worth having if the fuel is (apparently) incompatible with them, for whatever reason.
I’m shopping for an SUV right now to replace the Prius because my home state is essentially bankrupt and the powers that be have also declared that while there was Federal stimulus money for new Western Star plow trucks, which I don’t think were even needed I might add – the state can’t afford salt for the roads and can’t afford to pay the drivers overtime to clear the roads.
This is what happens when a country is essentially run by fiat from above (in much the same way as many nations have elsewhere in the world over the years).
The bottom line is – why are we allowing this to happen to us as a country?
Menno: You certainly are not going to like this, but I just read in the paper that the Big Agribusiness is lobbying to increase the ethanol content to 15%. Seems that they need the added consumption to support their business model. In addition to the hit on mileage, there are going to be problems with “older” cars. No big deal, they say. Get this: Their definition of “older” is 2001 on down. Where does that leave people like me who have several mint condition cars that are older than that? This ethanol thing sucks, and it doesn’t even make energy sense – more energy is used to produce it that is offset by not burning gasoline…stupid, just stupid.
No mention of attorney’s fees? Class-action law suits are all about the lawyers walking away with a pile of cash while the plaintiff “class” members get a coupon.
The Japanese auto companies tend to settle lawsuits.
A number of years ago, there was a gentleman who sued all the auto companies (among others) about manufacturing techniques. All the Japanese auto companies settled. The American companies fought the lawuits and eventually won after many years of litigation. (submarine patents).
A company claimed to own the JPG technology and sued all the camera manufacturers (mostly Japanese). They all settled by paying royalties.
I think people should understand driving style, weather and road conditions have a huge impact on mileage. I drive a Civic SI with EPA estimated mileage of 21/29/24 for City/Highway/Combined respectively. I have gotten mileage as high as 37.5 mpg on highway and as low as 16 miles per gallon while thrashing my car through curves and mountains. I typically get 25 mpg on everyday city commute to office.
Just remember driving style makes a big difference. To stress the point watch this topgear video comparing M3 and Prius. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKTOyiKLARk
25% higher fuel consumption with E10, menno? From a fuel that contains a maximum 3% less energy than pure gasoline? There’s something seriously wrong with your cars menno (assuming the figures are accurate). I have used E10 in my Mitsubishi Lancer (not exactly a super sophisticated vehicle) and got fuel economy around 2% worse over an entire year compared to the average achieved over the prior 2 years. That’s close enough to be insignificant compared to effects of driving style, tyre inflation, etc.
My very reliable 33-35 mpg is now a very reliable 27-29 mpg because of the poor gasoline in the State of Washington. Many other states allow an exemption for the highest or marine fuel, but not here. “Just say WA” you say.
Could it be some cars have a much more accommodating ECU mapping?
Jack Baruth reviewed a Cayman with a TPC turbo upgrade. The NY owner with the most mileage on one of these turbo Caymans claims his mileage moved from 22 to 25 mpg, but only after the second ECU reflash.
You can bet that Mr. True and Mr. Delgado never did anything more for their money than rent their names to the class action mill that filed the complaint. You can also bet that the lawyers made off with a couple of million bucks. And people wonder why America is going out of business.
The only thing this lawsuit proved is that the old EPA test methodology had little to do with the real world, hardly Honda’s fault except, one could argue, for their lobbying (along with every other OEM) for a test protocol they knew was bogus. Anyone who actually spends any significant time on the freeway in a hybrid could never have attained the EPA numbers, because you’re running the wheezer of an engine all the time. Driving the way most of us do, a diesel would always get better mileage than a hybrid, without any of the drawbacks.
IMO suit has no merit. If you think about it Honda shelled less then25 grand to 2 guys and gave worthless coupons to 100K others who will have to buy Honda to redeem coupon. This is very cheap marketing schtick it you ask me. Furthermore, Honda’s lawyers charged much more then 25 large and continuation even if Honda would win cost much more in scheister charges AND no 100K schmacks at Honda dealerships.
As noted by JFS22, the class action lawyers probably get several million dollars in the settlement. That’s the disgrace of this kind of lawsuit.
Money doesn’t just appear out of thin air, it has to come out of the settlement itself or it has to be paid to the lawyers by their clients. Class action lawsuits can be extremely lucrative but not all of them work out that way. $25k in cash and a bunch of non-transferable coupons doesn’t seem to leave much for the lawyers in this case.
No, the money does not come out of thin air. Honda has to pay it. The lawyers for the class action plaintiffs demand their millions, and leave almost nothing for the plaintiffs themselves.
You are right that not all lawyers make out like bandits in class action lawsuit settlements. But enough of them do that it has turned into a real racket. It’s a disgrace for the trial lawyers bar. Personally, it makes me ashamed to be a lawyer.
How do you people DRIVE, fer chrissakes? Since the advent of EPA figures, every car I have owned has exceeded the EPA figures by 5-20%
The current ride is a 5-speed ’05 Scion xB. When it was new, the sticker said 31/34. The “revised” EPA figures are 27/31. I’ve never gotten less than 33mpg, and usually get 35-37mpg.
Slow the hell down, willya??
“The EPA tested the vehicle and gave the car a rating.”
Bzzzt. Wrong. The EPA doesn’t do the testing, it issues the rules and procedures for how to do the testing. The manufacturers do the testing themselves.
Eggsalad: You are quite right for non-hybrid vehicles, but the picture is different for Hybrids. Real world Hybrid drivers often report much lower fuel economy than the EPA procedures indicate, while most reasonable drivers of non-Hybrid cars can easily meet or exceed the old 2007 and earlier model year EPA test cycle results.
The EPA changed the standard test cycle for the 2008 model year in order to somewhat close the gap between advertised numbers and likely real-world results, but they still didn’t do the whole job.
One thing the EPA still does not seem to have addressed is the question of battery pack state-of-charge at the beginning of the test cycle. For the relatively short EPA test cycle that initial condition matters. If a Hybrid starts the test cycle with its battery pack at full charge, it is going to turn out better numbers than if it starts out with a battery pack depleted to its minimum level or anything in-between. For a non-Hyrid vehicle the only initial condition of consequence is temperature, and that is in fact a specified condition for the EPA cycle.
Manufacturers are highly motivated to everything possible to maximize the advertised numbers. Part of this game is “teaching the car to the test”, or maximizing the fuel economy the vehicle will get on the very specific EPA test cycles even if this does nothing, or is counter-productive, for typical drivers.
Back in 1998 the diesel engine makers reached a $1 billion settlement with the EPA over the engine makers using programming of the engine controllers to optimize NOx emissions only during the emissions test cycle in a manner which was routinely defeated under normal use conditions.
http://www.dieselnet.com/news/1998/10epa.php
Bzzzt. Wrong.
The EPA tests some cars randomly but does not have the resources to test all cars:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q3/the_truth_about_epa_city_highway_mpg_estimates-feature
I have driven a Honda Civic Hybrid for the past 7 years. I noticed very early that the milage as given by the gauge was overstated by two or three decimal points. Nevertheless and taking that into account, I have never got less than 5.2 liters/100 km (going up to 6.2 in the winter with snow tires). Using the conversion factors on a Canadian government website I calculate I am getting 65 miles per U.S. gallon, which as far as I am concerned, puts the lie to these yahoos who claim they are getting less than half that mileage.
By the way I have never had any problems with the hybrid parts of the car. It is a beautiful piece of engineering.
As an added bonus, the hybrid electric motor takes over from the usual starting motor, giving just incredible starting power. It always starts instantly, without any signs of cranking, and even in minus 30 degree weather. It also give great accleration.
I am a retired teacher with no connection to Honda.