craigotron writes:
Sajeev and Steve, I love the idea of your new column. Love it. I made an appearance in Piston Slap with my flash welded PCV valve on my Lexus but actually have been playing with the idea of buying a car for almost a year. I’m a serial test driver (I’ve been on 20+) and have found myself in this scenario which might be a good one for your new feature.
My scenario:
About 3 years the sugar train of free cars finally dried up. Explanation: I am the youngest of three sons and was the former starving artist of the family so my entire motoring life (aside from my current car) has been spent in cast off 150K+ mileage vehicles. My interest in cars actually the mother of necessity; I managed to drive two of the cars well into 250K range. I ended up talking to the drummer of my band at the time who is a certified Lexus tech and had found me an immaculate 1992 LS400 with barely a hundred thousand on it. That’s been my ride ever since. It’s been great! But I’ve since moved out to the mountains and am on my third Wyoming winter. Snow tires have only gotten me so far in a town that has snow/ice pack from October to March. I’m quickly falling out of love with the car during the winter; which is a shame as I live in a great area of the country for pure driving. Though I must say I’m a better driver now that I’ve had a RWD car in hardcore winter conditions. I’m also concerned as I’m on the cars original starter and water pump – two notorious expensive fix time bombs with this year and model – and would rather the car not give up the ghost on I-80’s summit in no man’s land. What should I do?I have stable employment. I’m a bachelor and have no meaningful expenses outside of rent. No one to haul around besides the occasional friend or *ahem* groupie. I’m in a ‘promising new band’ so having something with a bit of panache is important to me. I’m thinking, after 20 test drives, that my heart firmly belongs to Scooby. I dream of WRXs. I’m open to the idea of other hot hatches. Found a great 2007 Mazdaspeed the other day. My needs are basic: enough room for a guitar amp half stack in the back. Used Mazdaspeed 3? What about an Audi? I want to keep what I finance under $20K but don’t mind splurging on a good down payment and a nice set of snow shoes for my next ride.
So what would you recommend for a rocker who faces a lot of winter driving and needs to haul the occasional half-stack around? Also: I dislike SUVs, abhor the idea of having a van and really would prefer something in the manual flavor. I’m from Michigan so you better bet I have a family full of car company workers and can usually get employee pricing. Thanks!
Steve Lang: For the $20,000+ you’re going to blow on wheels you can spend your money on a lot of better things. Studio time, equipment, perhaps a subsidized road trip that can get your band some regional presence. What I’m trying to say is that just because you’re making good money, you don’t want to flush all that success down the internal combustion toilet. The music world is a fickle bitch. Unlike say the life of an actuary or an accountant. But hey. You have the chicks, and the freebies that go along with the lifestyle. Plus you drive a Lexus. Not a bad return on investment if you ask me.
The parts for the timing belt and water pump are around $150 to $200 on Ebay. The starter can be taken out and rebuilt for $250. I would target about $500 in labor if you’re having it done at a good independent mechanic. Even less if you pay off a friend or have the chutzpah to follow the above guide yourself. It pays much better to simply keep the money in your bulging wallet and flirt with different new (or near new) cars whenever the itch arises. Then just buy some good wheels, better speakers, tires… or just take out a weekend rental to get the Led out. If you still want ‘the car’ after all that…. guess what… you already got it.
Sajeev Mehta: Speaking as a musician who still enjoys “free” cars with not-so-free repair needs, I get your situation. Then again, I’m a drummer, so I have a thing for a Niedermeyer-approved GEN I Scion xB. Cheap to own, somewhat entertaining to drive and it’ll carry all my crap. Given your budget and apparent long term ownership background, you need something that’s more xB-like and not an asphalt shredding hot hatchback. Especially a German one, but Subies are no walk in the park when it comes to labor rates.
Then again, groupies and whatnot. While non-WRX Subies are cool, are they cool enough for a dude like you? If so, grab an Impreza since you love the brand. Cost of ownership of a MazdaSpeed 3 is gonna be similar, so maybe a regular Mazda 3 is a smarter move. Because it’s quite stylish (far more than a Honda Fit) has the right moves, and leaves you with much more car (i.e. more purchasing power) or a fatter wallet at the end of the day. Hell, you can buy a new Mazda3 and enjoy low financing rates too!
Oh, and you still need headers on your LS400. Don’t think I didn’t forget!
Gosh Amigo I wish I had your problems. If the girl don’t grove on a LS400 then she ain’t worth your time. Plus, isn’t the back seat much bigger on that car than a Subaru? I mean think practically man!
I’m going to sound like a Saab fanboy here, but try to find a Saab 9-2x Aero. All the goodness (and reliability) of the WRX, but wearing a nice tux.
Bonus feature: It’s going to be $3-$5k less than a comparable ’05-’06 WRX wagon.
Not so bonus feature: there were only about 2200 manual transmission Aeros ever made, so finding one isn’t going to be easy.
I don’t think ‘SAAB’ and ‘Rock Band’ can ever be in the same sentence together! However basically being a Scooby in disguise I guess it’s acceptable. Just out of interest – why so much cheaper when its essentially exactly the same car?
The Saabaru is a good choice. Also lower in price than the Subaru. But check the insurance. According to American companies this is an European car! And therefore more expensive to insure for some bizarre reason.
As far as being cheaper – “Saab” is synonymous with “depreciation”, so the 9-2x can be found on the cheap.
As far as insurance is concerned, the 9-2x insurance rates are identical to the WRX (at least for my insurance – your mileage may vary). There might be a slight adjustment for the rarity of body panels, but 95% of the car is WRX.
Since chicks are into you for the music you don’t need a “hip” car to enhance your social status. Once again….
Honda Element 4WD
I’ve been in a few situations where having the ability to hose out the back of the car would have been really handy.
Don’t ask.
Wow. Thanks for posting my article; and thanks even more for the great responses.
A few things have happened since I originally penned this article:
– I sat down with my financial wizard brother who actually detailed how much per mile a new car would cost… that really snapped things into perspective.
– Pops let me use his consumer reports for a weekend and I saw that the winter tires I bought (before I knew about such things) don’t have a sterling reputation for the kind of winter I see. New shoes might do this thing wonders.
– We might get a band vehicle; that will satisfy my ‘something new’ itch. Used Suburban?
And most importantly:
– I became chauffeur for a girls birthday party; the bar was close to my house so I volunteered to take a carload over. All 6 girls in the car gave me some sort of variation of ‘oohhhhhhh Lexus!’
I’m leaning towards keeping this thing. Laramie, where I’m at, is home of a mechanic school and this town is just lousy with good indie mechanics. Instead of a down payment fund I’m thinking of a ‘when it breaks/make it more awesome fund.’ Though… I’m still undecided. I want to hear what everyone has to say.
So what kind of headers am I looking for?
Google Lexus LS400 headers or “Lexus performance” we’re not going to do it all for you, lol.
I say keep it. Get new tires, fix the things you said before, get the aforementioned headers. What’s that? $1500? $2000? You keep the car you like, save lots of money, and if you need something bigger, you can rent it.
Sounds good to me!
“All 6 girls in the car…”
Do NOT carry 6 girls in a 5 seats car. It may look great fun. It is not. Do NOT do that.
* You can kill unrestrained girls in case of crash.
* And if that does nor bother you, this will: If a girl is killed in such a crash, you are a legit target for a lawsuit. You can find yourself bankrupt for the rest of your life and/or in jail. Further trouble if the girls are under 18. Further trouble if drugs (any drugs) are involved.
* Even with no crash you are open to a Police stop if you carry unrestrained passengers. That police stop can bring you further trouble if illicit substances are found. Can you afford this kind of trouble?.
Remember: 5 seats/seat belts —-> 5 passengers MAXIMUM.
Some groupies are not very smart. The one behind the wheel must be.
(Uh, and that Lexus is cool)
What kind of rocker doesn’t want a van?
What kind of rocker lives in Laramie?
“What kind of rocker lives in Laramie?”
Ummmm…. you’d be surprised. One of the local acts just got signed to Fat Wreck. We’re a college town (the only one in Wyoming) and are only 45 minutes from Ft. Collins, two hours from Denver.
We’re a good Saturday or Friday night for bands coming in from out east working towards CA, or just a regional act from Denver that needs to get out. It’s a vibrant little scene, we’re starting to get some real traction. I’ve had an easier time and bigger better shows in little ‘ol Laramie than anything I ever did in the Detroit/Chicago corridor.
“What kind of rocker doesn’t want a van?”
One that values staying intact. We had some touring acts come in from CA and we had as many touring acts wipe out right around Rock Springs on the highway.
Steve Lang:
“The music world is a fickle bitch.”
Oh. I know. I have a former roommate that hit it big. Platinum record, European tour, the whole shebang. By the time things calmed down the band was in debt 6 figures to a major record label and was personally just scraping by.
I’m going to disagree with Sajeev on the xB. As much as I love mine, it would probably feel pretty underpowered after the Lexus and with the high altitudes there, especially if you’re going to be hauling six girls. And the image??
My seventeen year old son would take the Lexus in a heartbeat (it’s his most wanted car, if you can believe that), and he disdains my xB with the moniker NoSexBox.
Nuff said.
Paul’s alluded to a crucial problem being a drummer: do you pack your drums or do you ride with the girls? You can’t have both, because it’s not the 1970s: full size vans will never get the ladies.
That said, I don’t have groupies. I have a monster drum rack, and I don’t have an xB. :)
Ed’s only 17?
It’s probably not Ed Paul was talking about-he may have more kids.
Anyway, from what I’ve seen, the Lexus is pretty reliable and has a really cool image. Why not keep it?
Yeah, he’s referring to the youngest Niedermeyer. I’m 27 and I love Mk1 xBs.
Here is what I would do…and I understand/know Laramie pretty climate/roads pretty well; been to Wyo alot, eastern Idaho, Montana (lots of projects in both states). I usually do rent a 4WD from Hertz, but on occasion I’ll take my Outback.
you like the Lexus in all but winter, even with snow tires. Understandable…ground clearance in snow is a consideration besides just traction. At least it’s a heavy car. Keep it then.
Buy a Impreza/Legacy/Outback wagon, late-90s vintage. Use that in the winter AND for hauling your equipment around in. Or an old Explorer, Suburban, whatever.
I’m warming to this idea.
It’s obvious I didn’t do a very good job editing what I was stating…oh well.
It’s really a great alternative. When the old Volvo gives up the ghost (any day now, please!) I’ll replace it with a late-90s vintage Legacy or Outback…to use for going to/from work and as a “truck”. I really like my 07, but it’s the family hauler and does the camping duty too. Wife is pushing for a new body-style Outback (6MT), I just paid this one off!
Craigotron, it should be possible to pick up at auction a used Federal or State gov’t Suburban. They do tend to be plainer, but in that country of great distances they should be well cared for mechanically.
I had a great 68 Chevy pickup that was an old Forest Service truck from eastern Oregon. Plain as could be, but straight, rust-free, and a good rig.
I’m going to plug the used late 90’s Tahoe or Suburban as a second car to the Lexus. They are quite cheap to buy, cheap to fix, and parts are cheap and plentiful. Look for one with 4WD and the factory tow package, which can be identified by the auxillary oil cooler behind the grill in addition to a class III hitch. Also, check the build codes to see if the one you’re considering has the limited slip diff option which will be very helpful for winter driving. Tahoes and Yukons tend to be priced lower than the Suburbans or Yukon XL’s because most people in the full-size SUV market want the latter, but for your purposes the former will do fine. Enough seating for what you need, plenty of space to haul band gear, and if the Lexus ever breaks down you have wheels to drive until it’s fixed. Rent a tow dolly from U-Haul for $40/day and you can even recover the Lexus and haul it to the shop yourself.
Keeping the Lexus solves all your problems except the ‘snow’ requirement. You’ve said that snow tires only get you so far and I’d agree, particularly in hilly country.
I would have agreed with your initial thinking and said Subaru, but the problem with that is it won’t elicit any “oooo, Subaru” comments like the Lexus did.
So I say sell the Lexus – you’ll probably get ~$5 grand for it – and get you halfway towards a 2002-ish Audi A6 3.0 Quattro. I know it’s dubious in terms of reliability, but it’s 10 years newer than your Lexus. Not only do you get AWD but heated seats for you and the half a dozen groupies. Not sure where that fits into the cost-benefit analysis, but it’s worth considering.
If the Audi is “dubious in reliability” why suggest it? He already said he didn’t want to be stranded by the highway in no man’s land.
Nothing makes one look like more of a poseur than being broken down on the side of the road in an aging German car.
Because he’s driving an 18-year old car. It’s probably pushing 200k and at some point he’s got to make a judgement call about whether it’s worth maintaining.
Any car will last forever with an unlimited maintenance budget. I’m just saying that the 10-year, 100,000 (?) mile gap between a 1992 Lexus and a 2002 Audi is probably in the Audi’s favor.
Put on four new Blizzaks just before winter hits in October. They will be great all winter and get you thorough anything that won’t high-center your car. My RWD BMW 328i sedan has never gotten stuck in five Colorado winters with them.
Run them all summer — they will turn into all-season (read three-season) tires by next fall. Buy a new set next October. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Much cheaper than buying a newer car.
Twotone
Are the slightly newer LS430s from the early 2000s as sturdy as, or substantially more expensive to maintain, than the older LS400s?
My 24 year old backup ride is starting its final, smokey decent and I think I’d look pretty good behind the wheel of a circa 2001 highway cruiser like that.
I was told by a Lexus tech in Colorado that after they switched generations they started using cast instead of forged internal parts. I didn’t really get what that meant at first but from what I’ve figured out is forged=better; I guess the earlier ones were a bit more bullet proof?
Forged pistons are necessary for forced induction cars, or cars running aftermarket stuff like NOS. Modern cast pistons are more than adequate for any other application, so even though Forged is better, nobody will ever care.
But that does prove Toyota’s “Fat Product” concept mentioned in EN’s Toyota editorial.
If the newer 4.3s have timing chains, they will be substantially LESS expensive to maintain than the LS400. I don’t know when the switch was made, but that’s one big advantage, every 70,000 miles or so.
I’ll let a Lexus guru chime in on that, I’m sure there is one reading.
Speaking as a drummer with a huge rack, my 90 LS400 made a killer gig rig for myself and several other people/amps/guitars/keys. Beautiful looking, as well. Nothing but compliments. Sucked in snow, so I get the submitters beef in that department. I’m in Curbside Classic-ville; snows MAYBE once a year around here.
The maintenance costs are quite high, but overall reliability is fantastic. Non-Interference engines in the first gen LS, so that was a plus. I’m with whoever recommended getting a second car.
I use my 300k+ mile Four Runner for winter stuffs and gigs; the 265k+ Integra for fun drives/non-winter gigs.
The 4.0 and 4.3 v8s are belt-driven. Generally good for 100k mile change intervals.
I have a 98 LS400. the timing belt has to be replaced at 90K intervals. It’s about a just-under $1000 job at an indie mechanic, including the water pump which you ALWAYS throw in since it’s so easy to get to once you’re at the belt.
I’ve owned mine for 135K miles (bought it at 48K and it currently has 183K) and 8 years. The only unscheduled repair it’s ever had is a new headlight switch at about 160K miles. However it is hard on batteries,needs a new one about once a year.
Others have said that any car will run forever with enough maint budget. True. But I’ve had to do nothing but the belts for (twice in 8 years) and the usual stuff (oil changes, tires, brake pads). I sometimes think about replacing my LS, but how can I justify giving up such a great, reliable car? I gotta say, based on what I’ve been reading hear about Toyota’s history and decontenting, I’m starting to conclude that car is the absolute pinnacle of Toyota.
Oh,and one 2 sensor (which was the subject of a Piston Slap feature a few months ago). Sorry to follow up on my own post, but the edit button disappeared.
You start off complaining about snow performance.
I’m thinking nix the headers. you don’t need HP. You need road worthiness.
New suspension all around- OEM quality not rice rocket. dampers, all bushings and other wear items, expensive detailed 4 wheel alignment. Probably keep original springs. It will be a much better car and it will go a lot better in snow.
Buy steel wheels with high price snows for winter. Nokian. Or whatever Costco sells.
I actually started down this road; I put new poly bushings on the suspension and new upper control arms on it about a year ago per the advice of my Lexus tech friend; if I do keep it I’ll consider doing some more suspension work.
And I did notice when my amp is the truck I do shimmy down the street a little less.
I’m running Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2’s on my LS430. The first snow fall, I thought I was on all seasons instead of winter tires, I hardly noticed any difference in winter traction. I was pretty upset at getting stuck with RWD and sucky tires…until I discovered sand bags.
80 pounds of sand in the trunk, and the car feels almost as solid as a FWD car on winter tread. It makes that much difference. You’ll notice you probably have tons of grip on ice and snow with a full load of people.
And yeah, I’m going to try to keep it another 7-12 years because I can’t think of many other luxury cars other than a Mercedes diesel that can be kept for the long haul.
Top three rated snow tires per Consumer Reports:
Michelin X-Ice XI2($106) score: 84
General Altimax Arctic ($75) score: 78
Nokian Hakkkakkakakkkkkkkkapeliittttta 5 ($165) score: 78
The Generals and Nokians are studdable.
The Alpin PA2s mentioned above are classified as performance winter and scored 64 or 62, depending on speed rating. “Performance winter” tires rank lower across the board than the standard winter rubber.
And if you go platinum but still want to haul your own gear: Geländewagen.
“Put on four new Blizzaks just before winter hits in October.”
Excellent advice. Blizzaks transformed my first-gen CTS into a decent winter car. I bought a set of wheels on ebay to make seasonal changeover easier.
RWD can be fine in the winter provided you have good traction. Generations of Swedes got along just fine with their Volvo 544s, 122s, 144s and 244s on snowy Swedish roads.
Has anyone here actually worked on a Subaru? If you had, you would not be putting them forward as being good cars. If GM/Ford/Chrysler had desiged the mechanical components with as little regard for serviceability as Fuji did, they would have been rightfully villified.
Maintain the Lexus and it will last forever.
But Subarus don’t break as often. At least according to CR.
For your situation, nothing beats a new 2010 Subaru Outback. Not even a new LS.