“What should I buy?” Well these days it really doesn’t matter as much as you would think. The marketplace is absolutely riddled with 300+ late models to choose from and most of them are perfectly fine daily drivers. A Toyota? A Buick? A Mitsubishi? For most folks it really doesn’t matter. I’m not kidding. Their footwear is going to have a bigger impact on their quality of life than the car they drive.
But even today’s automotive world has a few cars that will cost more money to maintain per capita than our national debt. I’m not kidding there either. Bad engines. Clunky transmissions. Electric Gremlins worthy of a Steven Spielberg Sequel. Not to mention safety recalls that could even make a Chinese bureaucrat nervous. So without further lawsuits or potential censorship issues from aspiring TTAC sponsors, here they are…
Chrysler 2.7’s: Whenever anyone sees a midsized Chrysler at the auctions, the first thing they do is open the hood. If there’s a 2.7L engine in there, they quickly slam it and walk away. Either that or adjust their bid downwards by about $2000. This engine represents the absolute worst of modern engine durability. Oil sludge? Check. Chain Tensioner Failures? Check. Rebuilds which typically cost $1500+ for dealers? (Times two for the public) Check and check. There’s a rumor that Chrysler upgraded the engine around 2004 or 2005. I’ve yet to see that evidence. But I have seen a 2002 Chrysler Concorde maintained by the Salvation Army since Day One blow up three months after I sold it. Oil changes every 3k. A car that comes with more crucifixes per foot than the Vatican. It doesn’t matter. Avoid it.
Suzuki Forenza: It says a lot these days when nearly half your customers already hate your vehicle within a few years of owning it. There are three things that kill these models. Build quality, fuel economy, and electronics. The last of which has netted a healthy surplus of these vehicles at the dealer auctions. Last year we had a 2006 Forenza with only about 45,000 miles sell for $3500. Cheap? A little bit. But it was as erratic as Zell Miller on a sugar high.
Ford Contour: This car had so many unique issues on it that they should have released a TSB edition. Ford’s first attempt at building a world-class car was mostly a failure in the United States while a reasonable success in Europe. Why? Decontenting with a big capital D. Ford took a reasonably well-made vehicle across the pond and put in absolute bottom of the line quality standards when it came to the US version. It’s rare to see these vehicles sell for more than $1500 at the auctions. Even during tax season. A high end SVT may be great for an enthusiast, but the rest of the line is typically a headache on wheels.
Ford Focus (2000 – 2003): I have a friend of mine who is a top ten buyer at two different dealer auctions. He’s been doing it for nearly 30 years now. The number one piece of advice he told me was to never, and I mean never, buy a Ford Focus from these model years. The 2000 models had more recalls than any vehicle since the early-80’s. Ten safety recalls. That’s right, ten. I’ve also yet to see one from this time period that didn’t have rattles at idle. I will say one good thing. There was one 2000 model that actually had 393k on the odometer. Quite an accomplishment, but I’m sure the owner was halfway to deafness with all the noise that came in the cabin. He also used a bungee cord to help shift it which was probably more expensive than the Ford sourced stick itself.
Kia: The Kia what? Everything. Maybe some of their higher end models from 2006 onwards would be worth considering. But no. I’m not going to endorse what I believe is the biggest myth in our business. That is, “Kia builds good cars because Hyundai owns them.” Sorry to spoil the short-term media derived pixie dust in our industry, but Kias have generally been absolutely piss-poor vehicles up until these last couple of years.
They have been so bad… (how bad are they!) that I even created a ‘Kia Index‘ to symbolize brands that are inevitably traded in with low miles due to mechanical issues. Contrary to the Chrysler hate fest, Sephias, Rios, Sedonas, and Optimas really do represent the absolute bottom of the barrel of the used car world after the five year old mark. I seldom see a pre-2006 model at the auctions that doesn’t have a major issue. Any exceptions? The current generation Sedona minivan is decent and the Spectra had a few good moments late in it’s life. Otherwise I would consider a higher quality anything as an alternative.
Volkswagen: There are good Volkswagens. They just happen to be mostly owned by enthusiasts. The rest of them fall anywhere from ‘pick and choose’ to ‘chronic nigglers’. I will give a good mention to the TDI engines. But you really need to either have the mind of an engineer or be a registered member of the TDI club to get the most out of them. GTI’s are fine from my experience.
Otherwise any VW with the 1.8T engine or the too slow 2.5L VW represents god awful long-term value for the non-enthusiast. Oil sludge and crappy turbo durability for the 1.8. Plastic parts for VW interiors that are cheap and disposable, and the 2.5L is a boring and coarse engine with mediocre fuel economy. Sorry folks, but the low mileage trade-in index for VW’s is among the worst I see for any automaker. There’s a reason for it.
Jaguar X-Type (2001 – 2002): I happen to love almost everything that Jaguar sells. But not this car. The 2.5L version is pretty much a combination of the worst aspects of a Contour with the four figured maintenance costs of a Jaguar. The 2005 model year update yielded enough engineering improvements to make it a possibility. But I’m still waiting to see how those cars make out once they reach the 80k to 100k levels. For now I would only consider one of these models if it were a 3.0L, six-speed, wagon… none of which sold in the United States.
Saab: A Saabaru 9-2X or a 9-7 are possibilities. But why bother? The badged alternatives are generally cheaper to buy and better for their core clientele. The 9-3 and 9-5 are actually quite competitive as wagons. But oil sludge issues, high parts costs, and GM’s cost cutting make them hard for me to recommend to folks who aren’t gearheads. If you buy one as a long-term keeper car make sure you keep track of junkyard parts and either DIY or get yourself a really good mechanic.
Northstar engines: GM has this wonderful engine that can be raced like a demon and loves an Italian tune-up. So what do they do? They hand it off to a borderline comatose clientele in models whose exteriors can out-square a Volvo. Add a dash of Roger Smith ‘save a nickel’ seasoning by using low-quality steel headbolts on an all aluminum engine. What you end up with are blow head gaskets that typically take over 20 hours of labor to rebuild. Even Cadillac dealers now resort to non-GM parts for this engine. Cliff Notes version: Avoid Cadillacs with versions of this engine.
I’m going to print this and tack it to my wall!
Agreed! Thank you, Steven, thank you, thank you…
“For now I would only consider one of these models if it were a 3.0L, six-speed, wagon… none of which sold in the United States.”
I take it you were just referencing the the 6-speed part of the equation, as I see a coupla 3.0 wagons rather regularly. Or at least that’s what the chrome on the rear door claims.
One black, one BRG, and both driven by wealthy older ladies.
Though, the wagons do seem rather rare – I don’t think I’ve seen more than three total.
I think you meant the VW 2.5L (two.FIVE) engine. That is the one with crappy MPG and reliability issues, no?
Absolutely right. I’ll make the change.
Thank you, Sir. I appreciated the enlightenment, I haven’t bought a car in years but know I will be buying one in the next 6 months.
The Northstar thing kind of pisses me off. GM had plenty enough years of production to get that damn engine right. I love to do “Italian Tune-ups” but buying a 5 year old one with 50,000 miles that never left the retirement village in nearby Arizona is just asking for trouble sadly.
Steven,
Just wondering if you think VW’s low mileage trade in index has something to do with their sign and drive deals?
For those who may not be up to date on VW lease deals, a car like a Jetta can be had for $259/mo, nothing down, nothing due at signing. Basically just a $259/mo “payment” for 39 months, then if you don’t like it turn it in.
I’ve always wondered how they can lease cars so much cheaper than anyone else and make any money – or is it just to bump market share?
Thank you, thank you.
A coworker’s Dodge 2.7 blew up last week with only 105k on it. And I may be shopping soon for a used small car (for Mom), and among the candidates were Kia and Focus. Is the 2004+ Focus any better?
Given my 02 Passat near-lemon experience, it will be a long time before I own another VW (in spite of being an engineer…). I think VW’s 2.5L is coarse because it’s a 5-cylinder, having test-driven one once. 5-cylinder engines are immoral compromises.
I work part time ,answering the phone at a rural scrap yard. Most of the vehicles coming in, have been picked clean.and for the most part are scrap metal.
We do end up with a few jewels, and a fairly steady,you pull buisness.
Anything with a VW badge is like gold to the pickers. I worked last Monday when a fairly intact Jetta came in. Word travels fast in the country. By closing time Saturday the Jetta,stripped clean, went into the scrap pile. Honda and Toyota’s get stripped pretty fast,but not like a VW.
A Kia or a Hyandai will sit in the picking yard for a month. Other than a few light bulbs,they go on the pile fairly intact.
At the 7 to 10 year mark,not even the die hard back yard mechanics bother wasting thier time fixing the pieces of crap.
Interesting to see what’s hot at the pick&pull… nice perspective on the other side of the lifecycle! And great insights from Steven, as always.
I thought the Northstar issues were mostly fixed in later models?
VW/Audi’s 2.0T is a gem of an engine, not sure about the durability, though. The factory specified 10,000 mile oil changes are probably bad for someone who wants to keep it past 100,000 miles.
Back in early 2009 someone traded in a 2007 Forenza with around 3,000 miles at my dealership for about $7000. I remember being amazed at how cheap we got the car, and took a few people around on test drives on it and was fairly impressed by it. It was tossable, had a rev loving little engine, and steering and throttle response were nice and quick. Someone else eventually sold it, none of my customers could get over the fact that it was a Suzuki, and now reading about all the problems the model had, maybe it is best that I didn’t subject one of my customers to it. I’m surprised they hold up so poorly though, because in my brief experience with it, it seemed like a well built inexpensive little car.
The Forenza was a GMDAT product, perhaps better thought of as the Chevy Aveo’s big brother.
DAMN. I was thinking a 2002 or older Kia Sportage 4×4/5speed would make a good cheap off roader. I have also always loved the SVT contours, and in LA you see them on craigslist now for well under $4000
I rented one of those Focus models on a road trip from Atlanta to Birmingham… I stopped at a rest stop, but left the car on, with the AC (southern heat and humidity, ya’ll)and the steering wheel was litteraly bouncing up and down at least an inch….I couldn’t relax.
The issues about the long term reliability of the Northstar are precisely why my daily driver is a Town Car.
I do also own a Cadillac — a 1974. The 472/500 engine was one of the best and sturdiest GM ever produced. Also a creditable performer, before being choked with mid 70’s emission controls, and not as thirsty as you might think, especially compared to its Ford and Mopar comeptition of the time.
The 500ci Caddy engine can also make 500+ hp pretty easily and inexpensively (compared to other mega-hp engine buildups anyway) and still remain reliable, although fuel economy will often dip into the single digits at that point.
What really confuses me about the Northstar is that GM already had what is almost universally acknowledged as the best overall V8 on the market in the LS series. You can’t find another V8 engine with such a great combination of power, reliability and economy for anywhere near the price of the LS. The decision to spend hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars to create and market the Northstar when the LS series could have just been dropped in and resulted in better all around cars perplexes the hell out of me.
NulloModo,
The LSx engine was developed after the Northstar. The Northstar was based on the DOHC LT5 ZR-1 engine designed by Lotus for GM. It first went on sale in 1992, in the ’93 Allante. The LS1 first went on sale in 1997.
Now if you want to talk about an unnecessary engine, GM owned Detroit Diesel at the time but instead of having the best diesel engine company in North America design an automotive diesel from scratch, GM decided to design a diesel engine whose components could be machined on the same tooling as the gasoline engine. Though the Olds diesel was not modified from the gas motor as some think, the head bolt pattern was compromised by the decision to use the same transfer machinery. A year or two later, Detroit Diesel introduced the Duramax engine, which has been used in Chevy and GMC pickups for 20 years.
I’ve seen suggestions that the Northstar design is almost literally a pair of Quad IVs on a common crankshaft. I don’t think the ZR1 motor was developed soon enough to have any real influence on the N* development process (which would have been somthing like 1988-91?).
Actually the LS (short block only) is a direct descendant of the LT-5 Lotus engine. I don’t know about the Northstar, but that starter under the intake is also a dead giveaway to its LT-5 roots.
I thought the Duramax V8 diesel GM uses in trucks was an Izusu design.
The X-Type wagon was sold in Canada, so the odd one might make it south of the border now and then.
The X-wagons were sold in America, but apparently at sub-Lambo volume.
Did a little diggin’, apparently US sales were about 1600 from 2005-2008.
Now I know why I have only seen 3 of these ever.
Most Northstar powered cars are so cheap, that you can pretty much just buy one on a whim, screw around with it for awhile, and turn the engine into a coffee table when the headbolts fail.
Same idea for the Contour.
My Northstar powered DeVille is still going strong at 130K miles. It was cheap ($9K at 50K miles) and a nice ride. Fast, quiet, good handling, plenty of room, big trunk. If the head gasket lets go I trade the car.
Nothing wrong with steel head bolts, you want steel. You sure don’t want aluminum head bolts. Net rumor has it that Caddy beefed up the Northstar block in 2000 allowing more torque on the head bolts without stripping out the threads in the aluminum block. They claimed to reduce the number of head gasket failures significantly.
Actually GM’s real problem with Caddy is low resale value. New, a Caddy isn’t all that good a deal, but used cream puff Caddies are cheap.
I really enjoy Steve Lang’s articles. This article on used car crap surpasses the one a few weeks ago describing the rise and fall of used car prices with the cycle of tax refunds. (More interesting that the moon’s effect on the tide.) Almost bought my 16 year old son a used Passat 1.8 about 5 years ago. The car was beautiful, leather was flawless. We couldn’t get past the turbo lag on making left turns from a stop. I’m still driving the 2005 Accord I went for instead. It hasn’t cost me a dime beyond maintenance.
I can’t speak to the chain tensioner issues, but the 2.7L sludging issue occurred mostly on early LH cars because they didn’t have a proper PCV system. I have a 2003 Stratus with a 2.7L that runs fine with no sludge whatsoever, but it has a proper PCV valve and a heated CCV line, no doubt to reduce the possibility of throttle icing. From what I’ve heard, cars on the verge of a chain tensioner failure will exhibit a momentary rattling on initial start-up, and mine is quiet as a mouse, so hopefully it will last a while until something else catches my fancy or is cheap enough to make me want to shell out money on it.
From Allpar:
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/new6.html
“The 2.7 liter engine originally had a tendency to generate sludge which caused engine failure. Similar problems have been appearing on Toyota and Volkswagen engines. We were told that, shortly after the first reported cases, Chrysler isolated the problem to the crankcase ventilation system; hydrocarbons were entering the oil and breaking down the additives. This problem has been solved (around 2002-2004), and the number of engine failures appears to be small. However, if you have an engine that might have this problem, frequent (4,000 mile) oil changes, vigilance, and crankcase ventilation system maintenance (or replacement with newer parts?) may be an answer. We have been getting numerous reports from readers complaining that Chrysler is not standing behind these engines.”
The last time I was on an internet forum for the “cloud” cars (Stratus/Cirrus/Breeze), the consensus was change your oil on time, do the other maintenance items and you will be ok. Some of the members had over 200k miles on their cars.
Finally some non-brown nosing when it concerns Kia. My father’s Sephia is the worst car I’ve ever had the displeasure of driving, There’s NO resale value for it, it’s horribly unreliable, and it’s almost impossible to work on.
Awesome article!!!! I loved, and laughed out loud too. I agree with everything. The Chrysler 2.7 has to be one of the worst engines in recent history. Supposedly it was designed completely by a computer, which may explain things, if the program isn’t optimized properly, or programmed poorly, things will go bad quickly. Likely the PC was programmed for an ideal that wasn’t achievable. I did know one guy who had a Contour and loved it, until he forgot to change the timing belt and it broke.
I know a VW enthusiast like you mention. He loves them especially diesels, but not the last few generations. Has several of them. He once boasted to me that he drove home from work one day, pulled the transmission, and put in a new one ready to go to work the next morning. I asked him – is this good that you can do this? He did later buy a Volvo S70 which he said was much better to work on, and only needed rear suspension mounts – then he sold it. Oh well.
Damn, I was hoping for a rant on Avantis.
They were damned ugly when they came out in the 60s.
Still damned ugly when revived in the 1980s.
Still ugly today (whatever their current status is).
It hardly seemed possible, but Avantis were even uglier still in the 2000s, when they were simply a front clip grafted onto a Camaro (coupe) or Mustang (convertible). Talk about confused rebadging.
The original Avanti wasn’t beautiful, but in my opinion it was at least somewhat handsome and crisply designed. The mechanicals were impressive, considering that the chassis had its origins in the early 1950s. Unfortunately, Studebaker and subsequent owners of the design kept screwing around with it. Personally, I can’t stand anything other than the original, round headlight-bezel version.
I must disagree with you guys, I think the Avanti styling is great. Also, if you actually compare pics side-by-side, you’ll see that the Avanti is more than just a new “front clip” on a Camaro or Mustang, it is a very thorough rebody. This would be a minor feat for GM or F since they “rebadge” all the time, but for a tiny company like Avanti to do such a nice job putting the Avanti lines on these modern platforms is impressive IMO.
When I saw the title of this article, I was hoping that it was going to be about Avantis and other specialty rebadged cars (Excalibur, Zimmer and Stutz come to mind) and how they fare when they turn-up at an auction.
Actually most Kias pre-Hyundai and even the early post-Hyundai merger Kias are complete crud. Not really surprising. What’s surprising is how much better they are now (though not faultless, and nowhere near the top of the class).
Forenza? Wouldn’t touch one with a ten-foot pole. ECU programming done by grammar school students, with predictable results in terms of fuel economy and performance. The worst thing GM has ever done for Suzuki is force it to sell rebadged GMDAT garbage.
I owned 2 Mercury Mystiques, a 95 and a 99. I really liked the 95. It was well kitted out and with the 2.5 L V6 was fun to drive. It had 165 hp and only weighed 2800 lbs. The 99 was obviously decontented and was a bit of a disappointment. I traded the 95 for a 2002 Accord, and got nothing for it. I gave the 99 to the kids. My daughter rear ended somebody and totaled the car whilst doing no damage to the lady she hit. The Insurance company gave me about $2000 more than the car was really worth. Happy ending.
They weren’t trouble free, but they weren’t total disasters. Perhaps the V6 was better than the 4.
Ford screwed the Contour/Mystique up about 6 ways to Sunday. The car was supposed to be a world car. But the Euro Mondeo was supposed to be a D segment family car. Ford US didn’t want the design to be the generation 2 Taurus. The Taurus was a big seller back then. So they cut a couple of inches out of the back seat and slotted it into replace the Tempo. The tempo was complete crap. The Contour was better but it was too nice to fit between the Taurus and the Escort (which was also garbage). So they kept making it cheaper and nastier.
Steven, seems the Gmdat zuks are the problem children… How about the Japanese made Suzukis?
So what does this assessment portend for the recent alliance between VW and Suzuki? Let’s hope that the past isn’t prologue.
I always enjoy your articles, Steven Lang. Keep ’em coming!
The inclusion of the Chrysler 2.7 on this list doesn’t surprise me one bit. I’ve always wondered, though, why it goes bad so frequently in the LH cars but much less often on other Chrysler products, like the Stratus. The lack of a proper PCV system on the LH cars has been mentioned, which would be at least one possible reason. I’ve read that this engine has a tendency, simply put, to cook it’s oil. I’ve always had a theory. I believe this engine is much too small for a car as big as the LH sedans, and perhaps runs too hot or is just too stressed as a result. Just speculation, of course, but an engine of this displacement is what you’d expect to find in a compact car, when the Intrepid and it’s cousins are decidedly full size. I recall reading about that engine when the ’98 Intrepid came out and thinking it was way too small for that car.
My uncle has a Cadillac deVille with the Northstar engine. I don’t know exactly what year, but it’s around 1996-97 or so. He loves it and hasn’t had any issues with it as far as I know. But when I was car shopping 2 years ago, I considered a Norhtstar equipped Cadillac, until I found out about the sky high costs for repair and even regular maintenance. Yikes! I scratched those off my list pretty quickly.
Why do Northstar engines use an oil filter that’s the size of a jar of Gerber baby food? Anyway…
So do I remember correctly the lads on Top Gear once opining that the Mondeo was one of the best cars to ever grace Her Majesty’s asphalt? Can Ford really screw a car up that much by de-contenting? Hey, wait a minute. I own a Crown Vic. I know that answer to that question.
Stellar article, by the way.
Depends which version of the Mondeo Top Gear were refering to. Only the 1st gen was sold in the US as the Contour. The closest to the Mk 2 was the Jaguar X type and the current model Mk3 (which I believe was the one that Top Gear were referring to) has never been sold in the US – although I wish it would.
The Focus is the best example of screwing up a car by cost cutting!
Colin: the Countour(Mystique) was not the same as the 1st gen Mondeo. They started from the same platform and then worked hard to screw it up.
MattPete: The Avanti was back in limited production in South Bend by 1966. And it was still going into and through the 80s and well into the 90s. Have to disagree on the looks: it’s one of the best of the 60s and wouldn’t have been in production for decades with so few changes if it had been as ugly as you claim. Now the 4 door was an assault on the eyes, I’ll give you that. There have been one of two running around L.A. and they look bad from every angle.
Great article Mr Lang. My Mother has an 02 Focus and it’s been good so far. Kind of loud when it’s going though. Guess it’s getting in touch with it’s inner “T”….. Wouldn’t mind an 07 PZEV, personally.
A friend of mine bought a 2001 Ford Focus new…soon he began calling it his “rolling turd”. I have never seen so many problems with a vehicle, especially one that was maintained. So I can agree with that one!
John
After reading all the negative comments on the Forenza, all I can say is I must the luckiest Forenza owner in the world.
I have the 2005 Wagon S with an auto, and – as of this morning – it has 113,000 miles on it. It is my “drive to and from work” car, and I drive round-trip almost 100 miles a day, 60 of which is on the highway where the LEGAL speed limit is 70 (and you’ll be rammed if you go that slow). I tend to cruise around 80/82, and I have never had a problem merging onto the highway.
Not that the car is without issues. I average 25/26 mpg, which is pretty poor for a car this size and engine size. I’ve had odd gremlins (daytime running lights indicator goes off for no reason; electric steering dummy light comes on for absolutely no reason, nothing wrong with the streeting, and it goes off if you turn the car off and then back on), but I’ve learned to ignore them – they do not effect the car’s “drivability” or pose any safety issues.
I’ve had no problems with the transmission although I find it annoying (downshifts far to quickly).
The parts are expensive, hard to come by, and I’ve learned to avoid one of the local dealers like the plague. However, I’ve found a AAA certified local repair shop that has solved every little repair the car has needed.
Suzuki has been awesome about it’s warranty repairs; I’ve had two very minor oil leaks, the last one at _99,200 miles_ (as in, 800 miles left on my warranty), and Suzuki has honored the warranty without fail or issue. For that reason alone I would buy another Suzuki, although I’m honestly afraid they will leave the US Market because of dismal sales.
I would not buy another Forneza. Not that I think it is a bad car – it has been worth what I paid for it, which was cheaper than a Hyundai Accent at the time. I wouldn’t buy another one since (1) they don’t make them anymore and (2) they were old technology when they were new. However, you usually get what you pay for, and I wasn’t expecting an M3 when I bought the car.
Sorry, Can’t agree with you at all. The Chrysler 2.7 was fine if properly maintained, it was mostly lack of maintenance that was the issue. And as for the Contour my 98 SE with the V6 was an outstanding vehicle. Did a major tune up at 100,000 miles, cost me $900.00 and the car now has around 130,000 miles and still runs like a swiss watch. I sold it to my neighbor last year for far more than $1500.00, and they love it, trouble free, gas sipper with great performance. I sometimes wonder where you people get your info? Or do you just run with rumour and hearsay?
I agree on the Contour. I owned a 2000 Contour (Fleet model!) with the DOHC four and the 4 speed slushbox. I paid $250 for it from a friend, with a broken interior door handle, 4 bald tires, a tank full of two year old gas, dead battery, and full of ash and trash, plus it had been sitting under a tree the whole time. It had 80,000 miles on it.
I filled it with fresh gas, washed it, cleaned it out fixed the door handle, replaced two of the 4 speakers since they were bad, new tires, a new hubcap, detailed the living snot out of it, and it looked like a million bucks. Drove it for a year as daily transportation. then the timing belt slipped, replaced that $200 job. PCV hose failed, made one to work on that odd size. 3rd brakelight burned out, That was a royal pain to fix, since if you even looked at the housing wrong it crumbled. I tried to pull 3 of them out of the junkyard to fix the one I had completely destroyed and managed to come away with one that was the least broken, and still had to glue it together to look right. I couldn’t run it on less than a 1/2 tank of gas or it’d stall in corners, it would stall randomly on long road trips for no reason what-so-ever. Wait 5 minutes and it’d run like a top the rest of the trip.
It got semi-decent mileage in town about 24mpg. the highway was weird, on trips less than two tanks, it was actually cheaper to drive my Explorer! it would get 24mpg the first two tanks on a road trip, then shoot up to upper 30s. It was not comfortable for me on the road, plus it had the most road noise of any car I’ve seen.
Tossable? Oh yes, it was a blast to drive on a winding road when the tank was full. even with the skinny 14″ wheels on it.
I sold it for a tidy profit after someone walked up to me asked me how much, I gave him a figure and he took it, I didn’t regret it.
I also forgot the transmission was the dumbest thing I’ve ever felt, I thought the 4 speed in my ’95 Explorer was dimwitted, but the CD4E made it seem smart.
My ‘98.5 Contour SVT has served me well for the past 12 years, 135k miles (since new). It took a while to get it there – crummy rubber sway bar bushings that kept failing (replaced with urethane and work great), creaky plastic dash (pulled out and inserted foam between the pieces), wheel bearing failure (even with the Mondeo bearings) and various other sensors and minor components failing. Good thing I have the shop manual on CD and a mechanic who is patient with me. I track the car occasionally as well.
However, the engine is stellar and nearly bulletproof – the duretec V-6 – and at the time, the SVT had the 2nd highest specific output of any naturally aspirated engine (1st was the M3). 200 HP out of 2.5L. Part of the reason the SVT is more reliable than the other models is SVT borrowed heavily on the european parts bin – recontented many Mondeo parts, so to speak.
I can see how a low rent, base contour would crumble though. So sad – so much promise from the platform.
I think my Contour’s problems stemmed from its general lack of upkeep for the first 7 years I owned it. Aside from the fuel pump issue, it was a reliable car, my GF loved it, it was far far more reliable than her Saturn, which she would leave with me to fix while she borrowed the ‘Tour. What annoyed me the most about it was the automatics generally dimwitted behavior, I would have much preferred the 5 speed in it, as the Zetec/CD4E combo was ok, but the trans was almost always in the wrong gear when I wanted to play.
But it’s general lack of comfort for tall folk like me (6’2″) and my family, it was effectively a 4 door-two seater that just didn’t fit me. It’s a good looking car actually and I wanted one when they were new.
Mine had a warped dash that they fixed under the recall, but it never looked right. I added some content back into it, with pulse wipers. Mine was so low rent that it’s only options was A/C, power windows and locks. I polished the headlights up and the paint and it looked brand new.
I ran across a 95 Contour in the yard that if I still had one I’d have robbed the interior out of, it had comfy seats, a REAL armrest and console. Not the silly flipper that was attached to the seatback that was too short for me and in the wrong place all the time, my passengers used it more than I did.
It’s weird highway fuel economy was also bothering me. Every car I’ve owned is fairly predictable for gas on road trips. This car was not predictable at all.
I’ve read the forums and was actually glad I had the Zetec, as the V6s seemed to be hard on transmissions and bad water pumps plus looked like a service nightmare underhood.
Having said that, I’d actually like to find a nice Jag X-type since it’s based on the Mondeo/Contour platform
In terms of SAAB vehicles, I think you need a little more granularity.
9-2: agreed
9-3 (98-2002); still very nice cars, I don’t see much GM cheapness, sludge can be an issue but may be blow a bit out a proportion.
9-3 (2002+); 100% different car, and honestly I don’t know enough about them to say. Convertibles are not bad.
9-5 (all years); excellent used cars. Wonderful seats, engines, and not that much GM cheapness – the design is so old GM couldn’t make it cheaper.
9-7: A corvette engine in a Trailblazer. Probably very cheap.
I agree that SAABs have an reputation for being finickey, but lets be honest, there are a lot of older ones out there, and a big problem for SAAB owners are cheap owners who prefer to fix them up than buy new ones.
The 98-03 (they let the convertible go on one more year) 9-3 had real sludging problems (go ahead, ask me how I know!), as did the pre-04 9-5. Before 98, the 900 sans V6 and Sentronic trans wasn’t a bad car, but it wasn’t great, either. It did suffer some decontenting in 1998.
The 9-5 is actually not bad, but again watch that pre-04 engine. The cheapness you can see is a) the climate controls from the Cobalt/HHR in the 2005+ models and b) lots of secondary trim (switches, shifter) from the 1993 (!!!) 900.
The 9-3 from 03+ (Saab people call it the (9-3SS) has less mechanical issues than the prior car (the NG900 or GM900) but more electrical ones. The early run of the car is evil.
The 9-7x is a bad car and it never had the Corvette engine, just the 4.2L six (which is a horrible powerplant) and the 5.3L V8 (which is actually a good one, just not the Corvette’s 6.0). The problem is that it’s a GMT360, and while you can take a commodity truck platform and make a credible luxury car (the Lexus GX comes to mind) GM didn’t try here.
If you go back earlier, there’s the pre-GM 900 (not a bad car, but so weird that the parts cost will kill you) and the 9000 (ditto, only less reliable).
decontenting after 98? I’d say it is mostly improvements in design. Better steering hose layouts, oil coolers, turbos, etc. Sure the electronic throttle and associated emissions might have had a role in the sludge mess, but the primary bone I have with the 98-02s is the stupid cup holder.
Of course the 9-2x is reliable. It’s a Subaru Impreza. It’s actually better – the additional sound deadening deafens the tractor roar of that EJ20/EJ257, the STI steering rack is fun, and you can get stuff on a 9-2x you can’t on a similar impreza, like leather heated seats.
9-3 (98-02) the sludge issues are GM, not Saab. GM decontented both of the saab engines (the 2.0L B204, turned into B205, and the 2.3L B234 to B235.) The cheaper PCV system never worked right. These were actually GREAT engines when they were SAAB engines – the B234R in the 9k Aero had FORGED rods from the factory, and there are Saab nuts rolling around with 450whp and a Holset turbo on stock bottom ends. Ditto the forged-internal 2.0L in (NG)900 SE Turbo’s, they are tough as nails.
9-3 2002+: JUNK. Freaking junk. It’s a shame, because they’re pretty, have awesome interiors, and are damn nice to drive. 03’s in particular are to be avoided like Leprosy. There’s a reason that was the only year that had a secondary air pump. The check valve would frequently fail, allowing exhaust gas to be pushed backwards into the pump, jamming it up. Replacing the valve costs less than a hundred bucks and you can DIY in 30 minutes. I believe the pump is like a $600 part and 8 hours labor at a dealer just to pass inspection. Also, fiber optic audio cables? Really GM? I haven’t seen a single early 9-3SS with a working factory stereo, that hasn’t had those cables replaces.
9-5’s newer than 04 don’t have the PCV issues early ones did, although there are electronic problems. Avoid the early “3.0t” 9-5’s that have a single (asymmetric) turbocharged stuck on GM of Europe’s 54 degrees V6. No power, too much maintenance.
9-7: DID come with a corvette engine, guys. 9-7x Aero had a 6.0 LS2, it was a Trailblazer SS with better suspension and interior. There was also the 5.3L Vortec V8 and 4.2L 24v I6.
What years and models did Toyota make where the engines would sludge? And what engine sizes were they?
98-01 2.2L I4 (5S-FE) and the 3.0L V6 (1MZ-FE), I think.
There weren’t very many cases of it, at least not compared to the Chrysler 2.7L and the Saab B205/235.
I must disagree about the Contour/Mystique.
My 1995 Mystique, 6 cyl, 5 speed manual has just turned 300,000 New York City/Long Island hard miles, and has been the best car I have ever owned.
Maybe it was before the decontenting, but I have found this car outstanding.
The only issues I have ever had was a small broken plastic clip for the throttle cable at 201,000 miles (fixed in 5 minutes with a nylon tie-wrap), clutch at 250,000 miles and alternator at 299,000 miles. Other than that, just brakes, tires, ball joints and rear struts. Normal maintenance.
I would buy another in a heartbeat.
Gotta agree about the Northie, what a maintainence nightmare. The Cadillac club members I was friends with when I owned my lemon CTS were constantly working on there cars and more than once came close to dumping them and taking the loss they were so bad.
What is it with Caddys? My CTS was the worst piece of garbage I’ve ever owned and I’ve read numerous complaints about electrical gremlins that plagued my 2006 CTS that still plague brand new ones! The transmissions are weak, the new 3.6 engines have faulty camshafts which result in blown engines, head gaskets, rear ends, hardware, build quality, etc. Even the new SRX has been having issues. It doesn’t make sense.
It’s like the only Cadillac to buy is the DTS and the trucks.
The biggest damnation of GM for the past 20 years or more has been the fact that with their trucks and SUVs they really try, they really seem to care, they have great engineering… then with the cars they make they don’t really seem to give a damn. The BOF trucks and SUVs prove they can build and engineer quality vehicles but woe to those who buy a GM car.
BTW I’m not saying that the General can’t build decent cars it just seems like the trucks are where the corporations heart is at.
Gotta agree about the Northie, what a maintainence nightmare. The Cadillac club members I was friends with when I owned my lemon CTS were constantly working on there cars and more than once came close to dumping them and taking the loss they were so bad.
What is it with Caddys? My CTS was the worst piece of garbage I’ve ever owned and I’ve read numerous complaints about electrical gremlins that plagued my 2006 CTS that still plague brand new ones! The transmissions are weak, the new 3.6 engines have faulty camshafts which result in blown engines, head gaskets, rear ends, hardware, build quality, etc. Even the new SRX has been having issues. It doesn’t make sense.
It’s like the only Cadillacs worth buing are the DTS and the trucks.
The Contour/Mystique is a classic Nasseresque disaster. The usual Ford forward thinking took place when it came to replace the Tempo/Topaz. None. In a panic they replaced it with their small platform Eurocar which meant it went from an $8,800 car to a $13,000 car, far more modern underpinnings and quality in a small package which Ford couldn’t articulate, for a market segment that couldn’t give a damn. Sales hit a brick wall.
To drive down the price theyy decontented everything and basically destroyed all the special attributes of the car except for the SVT versions. I don’t think that they, for the life of the model, matched one years total of the Tempo in sales.
An older guy I worked with had to buy a new car when his grandaughter wrapped his Chevy S10 Blazer around a telephone pole while drunk. He and I had almost identical 88 Blazers and they were about as trouble free as a vehicle comes. So instead of buying another one, he goes out and buys a brand new 95 Contour. He paid cash for it, and it was his first new car in like 20 years. It was ok, for a while, then the fun began. One morning, we were leaving work, and the battery was dead. Really dead. It wasn’t even a year old yet. I jumped him and he got it started and he took off for home. I was BS’ing with our boss when the boss’s cell rang, it was him, it died a couple miles down the road, on a bridge, and was wondering if the boss could get some guy they knew with a tow truck to take it to the dealer. He finally got it there a couple hours later, and in a couple of days, he got it back. Some wiring had pinched in the dash, and the fan was stuck on, and that’s what killed the battery. That doesn’t make sense, why would a stuck fan make it die while running? That was the first of many probable lies told to him by the dealer, and not the worst one by any means.
A couple days later, he calls me and says, “Can you pick me up? My car died and even with a jump it won’t start!”. So I pick him up. We had some time, and he lets me sit in it, and I said,”Don’t you smell that burnt plastic?” He can’t smell it, but it’s there. He gets it back about 5 days later, and it’s supposedly fixed. It goes along for a couple weeks, and this time, he has no problem smelling the smoke that was coming out of the vents when he tried to start it to leave work! The dealer tows it off, and I take him home again. He was beginning to have bad feelings about it by this point, but he said the dealer will get it fixed eventually. Well, the electrical fun did get fixed, so it was time for the transmission to fail. As it did most of the time, it would do this stuff after sitting all night. He got into the car to leave, and as soon as it started up, it sounded almost exactly like my 71 Cutlass did after it got wrecked and the trans case was broken in half, just not as loud as it was. Kind of like a helicopter’s turbine. We heard it, and saw him slowly get out, and shake his head. Off it went for a while, for a new tranny, and he got brand new one for a loaner.
When it came back, his wife began following him to work in her car, in case of another catastrophe. One night, she drove the Contour to work, and he came in her car from someplace else. The next morning, he gets in and it starts (YAY!), but, his wife had put the seat back all the way, to where a normal person would want it, but he was a “close driver”, and totally freaked out that he might have a foot between his chest and the steering wheel! He sits there and is obviously trying to move the seat, and it’s not budging. My boss and I go out there and ask him what’s wrong, and he’s on the verge of panic, “I can’t get the seat to move! I can’t drive it like this all the way home! (15 minutes!)”. We just laughed. He called his wife, and she told him to just “suck it up and drive it like a normal person!”, and finally, after he spent 20 more minutes screwing with the seat, he drove off. He showed up that night in his partially restored (Why?) CHEVY LUV pickup! The bed was as rusty as any Toyota bed I’ve ever seen, with several holes large enough to put your arm through, but the cab was in good shape, and primered up, ready for paint. I asked him if the Contour died again, he said, “No, the dealer had to order the parts to fix the seat, and I can’t drive a car with the seat back that far!!”. That cracked me up and he called me a ” One of those far away drivers”.
Next it was engine fun. He had what the dealer thought was a head gasket (I think it had the 4 in it) start to seep coolant, and off it went for another stay at the dealer. Ohh, bad news, it needed a short block, it was cracked! He drove a Taurus loaner and did nothing but complain about it. I started asking him about doing a lemon law on it, and he got very angry for me even mentioning it. Then later on, he tells me his wife has been nagging him to lemon it for months. He got it back in a week or so, and it behaved for almost a month. He was down near Columbus in it, and it made a terrible noise and started shaking while at freeway speed. He called his wife, and she went ballistic, telling him she never wanted to see the Contour again, and if he brought it home, she would burn it down to the ground. I never heard what exactly was making the noise and shaking.
Finally, that pushed him to want to get it replaced and Ford, surprisingly, agreed. Now, what does he do? Does he get something else? No, he gets another, slightly fancier, Contour. This one went for about 18 months, but in almost the exact same place near Columbus as the last one died at, it blew the transmission. That started another whole series of failures and him getting stranded, usually out in the boonies. We had a lot of fun every night, asking him “Hey, what did it do today?” His wife refused to ride in it, period, and finally, he went back to the dealer, and one day he showed up in a purple Ranger. He’s still driving it, with about 2″ of space between his chest and the steering wheel.
Guy sounds like a bona fide moron. I’m surprised the wife didn’t leave him over his car issues.
Reminds me of my grandparents-in-law, who continue to buy Ford after Ford even though the last few have been complete garbage. Why? “We know the salesman at the Ford dealer who sells us cars. We went to high school with him.” Who cares? My own grandparents have said things like this at times and I just don’t get it. Why are old people convinced that as long as they “know someone” he/she won’t rip them off or give them garbage products?
nrd515
Dude,
That is absolutely hysterical!
Ive seen people driving around like that, with 2″ between their chest and the wheel. If you get into some light fender bender… its going right though your chest.
Heaven forbid that poor bastard gets into a wreck.. and puts the damn wheel into his chest. Then again that damn Contour would have to be on the road longer than a day to actually drive it.
Absolutely hysterical!
If I had that problem with any of my Accords… I’d bring it back n say the hell with ya. Then he goes out and buys a fancier Contour, and or a Purple Ranger.
Dude.. he needs to change companies or get better taste, cause its just not working out.
Alex, sounds like my in-laws who bought a Chevy 2500HD 6.0 Crew Cab from a “union friend” sales lady of the FIL at a stealership on the other side of Columbus. Bragged they got a great deal, they even told him it had the Allison tranny in it. They towed a big 5th wheel trailer with it. They give the truck to their daughter (my wife) this year after the FIL had a stroke and it was getting too much for the 75 y.o. MIL. When I get the title I notice they actually paid MSRP (almost $35,000) for it! Their payment was a little over $600 a month and they still owed almost a third of the purchase price after 5 years of payments! After doing some research I also found the Allison automatic came on the diesel engine only. They sure saw them coming, some “friend”.
The MIL also had a Northstar Caddy that she had to have TWO engine blocks put into it because the original cracked, and the replacement cracked after short time. After that replacement she parked it and sold it without driving it another mile. Luckily a former neighbor is a mechanic and did the work for her.
Mr Lang,
Another great piece.
Can ya give a list of positive cars to go for…
P.S
Whats the feelings about Focus of 03+?
And are 00 Accords with 240k still valuable?