TTAC Commentator Toyondai92 writes:
Mr Mehta and Lang, I’m writing in for my non-tech savvy parents who are starting to look for a “new” car. I say new with quotes because only one of the choices is actually a brand new car. Background wise it’s simple, my parents are in their 50s and I am 17, both of my parents work, typical stuff etc. We have three cars, a 2000 Hyundai Elantra Wagon, which despite my mother driving it like an Integra- yes it’s a five speed- has been bulletproof to us, a 1989 GMC pickup and a 1999 Chevy Metro whose auto trans is starting to clunk out. Thus, the need for another car. I should add that I, the 17 year old, will most likely NOT be driving said new car, as I have my eyes set on an 80s Acura Legend. This is an import-biased comparison, helped by the fact that GM and Chrysler don’t offer manual transmissions in their family sedans and you can’t say the F(ord) word near either of my parents. (Don’t tell me to try and break that grip, I already tried!) Toyota’s declining quality and recalls have scared them away from that brand, hence no Camrys or used Lexus in this list. The main choices we’ve been looking at are:
- Brand new Honda Accord, most likely the 4 cylinder EX model with a 5-speed manual. Only accessory added would be the bluetooth link for a cell phone, as my mother needs to use her phone a lot while driving. Honda’s website brings this in at about ~$25K.
- Brand new 2011 Hyundai Sonata when they come out later this year. Base model with the 6-speed manual and bluetooth thingy. I’d assume the price to be a little higher than the current Sonata, so let’s say ~$20K.
This is where it gets interesting.
- Used 2004-2006 Acura TL with a 6-speed manual, sans tech package. The local Acura and Honda dealers usually have at least two of these for anywhere from $20-$25K with 25-50K on the odometers. My mother likes this one because of the two extra cylinders over the Accord, Sonata and the next choice.
- Used 2004-2008 Acura TSX with a 6-speed manual, also sans tech package. Can usually be had for $18-$23K with 30-55K on the odometer at the same local dealers. My dad likes this option because of the TSX’s smaller size than the TL and the current Accord.
And the only outcast here:
- Used 2005-2008 Acura RL with the 5-speed automatic, no tech package. Despite not having the manual trans option, the interior and SH-AWD gets this a spot. Local Acura dealer always has a few of these in stock with 50-75K on them for a lower price than the Accord.
I left the German brands out of this due to brand preference. So basically we’re looking at one new Hyundai, one new Honda and three used Acuras. My parents don’t mind if they drive a Hyundai or an Acura. So, I now ask after typing WAY too much, what do you two gentlemen and the Best and Brightest have to add? Criticism is welcome for any of the choices, and being a frequent TTAC reader, I know there’s some headed my way.
Steve Lang Replies:
You’re asking us about five different types of vanilla. Not that this is a bad thing. Just that most of what you have listed is eerily similar to one another in many respects. However I will say there’s a pretty big leap between a Sonata and a TSX.
The most bang for the buck would come with a used RL. I would opt for one around the 40k range mileage wise and if you must have it, an extended warranty. Before you buy it, see if you can find out a bit how the prior owner maintained it and let an independent shop have a quick inspection. All the others are going to go for a stiff price premium in this anti-Toyota market. Also keep in mind that this is tax season and Honda / Acura / Hyundai dealers may not be in a bargaining mood.
Sajeev Mehta Replies:
You and your folks are savvy shoppers, narrowing the field down to a short list of rides. The first, most obvious, thing is drive all the cars on familiar roads to see if something bothers anyone. Always keep Mom and Dad happy by keeping them honest.
And damn, those parental units are cool: I’ll never get either of mine into a car with a three-pedal affair under the dash! Not that my parents don’t rock (they do) but I love yours already. Which is why I recommend the nicest car they can afford, given the fleet of practical vehicles. But it’s gotta have a stick, the dullness and bulk of an AWD RL isn’t doing anything for me. The TL fits the bill: you avoid Honda’s notorious automatic transmission woes and enjoy a good blend of luxury craftsmanship inside and entertaining performance outside. (With a generous side order of torque steer, but six cylinders are still better than four.) Getting a used TL over a new, ugly Accord is a no brainer. Work that depreciation curve for all you can, because Acura is happy to oblige!
I think the TSX is the best choice seeing you want the 6-speed. It has one of the best 4 cylinder engines out there and will be thrifty on gas, too. The older TSX is way more appealing than anything new by Acura.
No interest in a used G35 with a stick?
BTW, +1 to Toyondai92’s writing. At 17, he communicates better than some MBA’s I work with.
+1 on that comment. Sometimes I think you only need a pulse to get an MBA.
As a high-school English teacher, I too would like to +1 this young man’s writing.
Furthermore, as a G35 owner, I will +1 the manual G35 suggestion as well.
Thanks for the compliments guys!
We’ve added the G35 to the list. Infiniti’s stellar depreciation helps a lot!
You might want to add Nissan Maxima to that list. Until the 09 model came out you could get one with a stick shift. Starting in 02 they came with the 3500 VQ that’s good for 255 HP. Quality is up there, performance is up there, and they’re priced way lower than those used acuras.
I own a 2006 TSX with the 6-Speed (in fact, that’s my TSX’s shifter as my avatar). It is indeed a nice car. The transmission and engine are both gems. The only repair I’ve had with the car in 4-years and 32,000 miles is that the navigation system computer had to be replaced, but this should not affect you since you’re avoiding the navigation package. Also, for some reason it’s not the easiest car to drive smoothly at a sedate pace, I don’t know why, but sometimes it can be tough to get the engine to hook up at the right speed. My sense is that the electronic throttle’s programming is to blame. Lastly, the brake rotors warp fairly easily.
If you do go the TSX route, I would try and find a 2006-2008 model TSX. For the 2006 model year Honda updated the TSX with bluetooth, a power passenger seat, memory for the driver’s seat, an AUX input, a trip computer, and 5 more horsepower.
Good luck and happy shopping!
I’ve had an ’04 TL 6-speed for over about 6 years and 55K now, and it’s been a great car– fun enough to keep the commute lively, with a suspension that’s sporty without being punishing on long trips. Just a heads-up, there wasn’t a tech pkg on the ’04-’06 TL– the only extra-cost options available were the navi and summer tires. All models have the bluetooth, which is basic (no phone book sharing) but very useful. Beware though, the 6-speed comes with Brembo front brakes. At best, you’ll get 30K out of the pads, and front pad and rotor replacement will set you back at least $450 (my wife draws the line at letting me do my own brakes).
Yikes! She’d rather let a stranger do your brakes?
Any of the above will seem like a spaceship coming from a ’99 Chevy Metro or ’00 Elantra Wagon. I agree with your dad though; the TSX is the best choice based on size, sportiness, economy, and your mom’s awesome driving style.
Though your parents have nixed Toyota paraphrase good ole’ FDR to your parents and tell them to not fear their fears. Consider a gently used IS250 w/stick.
My 350 has been bulletproof….and to put everything into perspective more people every year in the US die from falls/the flu/drunk drivers/medical mistakes/lack of stability control in their car/food poisoning/you name it, etc, etc, etc than from every confirmed or unconfirmed Toyota incident.
I’ve been very happy with my ’04 TSX 6-speed. First year of the model, and I’ve had no issues short of some minor rattles. I find the size and “tossability” much better than the TL I drove, but that’s just personal preference.
…and as a Honda tech at a dealer, I think you’ll have a hard time finding a new 4cyl M/T Accord. They do exist but I can count on one hand the number I’ve seen of the ’08-’10 models. Finding one in the color/trim level you like ain’t gonna be easy.
…and +1 for 3 pedal parents….My 65 y/o Mom refuses to drive an automatic trans. Took us 3 months to find her a M/T Civic in the color/trim level she wanted!!!
I’d consider a used TSX 6 speed – they are quite cheap and great cars (being a former owner of a ’04 model). It’s only major drawback is that a 200hp 4 cylinder is trying to move a 3,200lb car through the front wheels only.
If you can’t say the “F” word around your folks (honestly I don’t understand most auto biases) why not say the Mazda word? A gently used Mazda 6 with 5 speed would be way more fun than a new Accord or Sonata.
You could also tell your folks that the Toyota problems haven’t affected the Japan built Lexus products. Haven’t noticed any deals on Lexus models around me due to Toyota woes, but if you can find one you’ll end up with a much nicer vehicle than anything that Acura makes. And that’s spoken as a Honda loyalist that cross shopped Acura/Infiniti/Lexus and saw how quickly the cream rises to the top in that showdown. I found a roughly $5k premium of Lexus over Acura which is IMO well worth it.
Buy the 2011 Sonata; they’re already on dealer lots.
Be ready to do some serious looking and traveling if you are planning on buying a used manual transmission Acura TSX. I don’t know where you live, but I’m in Indianapolis, a metro of over 1 million residents, and a 6-spd manual TSX is truly one in a million, because there is only one listed in metro Indianapolis. In fact, there are only 12 within 250 miles, and that includes all of metro Chicago, Cincinnati Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, and Louisville KY.
As you can imagine there were not many takers for the manual. When I bought mine in March of 2006 the dealers explained that the VIN of the car indicated it was the 37th manual TSX built for the 2006 model year.
+1 on the Sonata. It gets great reviews. As a long time Aucra owner I would also suggest you stay away from the RL. It is way overpriced for what it is, and has had many problems over its 5 year run.
Aren’t the 2011 Sonatas on a “Stop Sale” right now because of the “pull to unlock” door handle feature that isn’t working? Even once they have that sorted, I’d say to avoid considering a first year Hyundai. I had a 2001 Elantra GT (1st year XD), and it was decent enough, but there were lots of bugs and TSB’s to work through before it was 100% right.
I also have friends/relatives who have not had the greatest luck with used Nissans and Infinitis – they seem to be wonderful NEW cars, but can be kind of sketchy to own as a 2nd or 3rd owner. Especially with a CVT.
I’m a “bred-in-the-wool” Honda man myself. I’ve had 4 of their cars (’90 CRX, ’92 Accord, ’94 Civic, and ’07 Pilot), and all have been excellent and as reliable as a sledgehammer. I also have owned a Honda motorcycle (’96 VFR), and a lawnmower (’07 21″ walk-behind). Of these, only the lawnmower gets a failing grade – apparently the same engineers who designed the TL transmission designed the transmission in the mower…
But I digress.
If you can find one, get the 1st gen TSX. Great car, and bulletproof – the 6 speed is icing on the cake.
The stop-ship on the Sonata may be over already; it was only to last a few days to fix a couple thousand cars which had already appeared on dealer lots or had been sold.
I bought my 01 Elantra GLS with 138k on it, and have added another 6k. After some initial repairs, it runs great, even on the original transmission.
My vote goes to a TL as well. Or, as another option, look for a loaded 06 or newer Accord with the 5speed. You wouldn’t think it, but it is a brilliant combo. Easy to drive quickly or slowly, beautiful transmission, engine and reliable as heck. Plus, its sporty without being punishing. My dad drives an ’03 LX-G, and he considers it to be half way through its life, with 222,000kms on the clock.
Ideally: the briefly offered ’07 Accord EXL-V6 with 6-speed manual. The coppers would never suspect your parents of anything.
very interesting selection of cars indeed…. and clearly a preference for Honda/Acura of which I am a loyal devotee…
Overall, i think the Accord is out. I personally dont believe the accord is $5k better than the new Sonata (might I add, you may wish to await for the unveiling of the new Kia Magentis/Optima which will give you the more aggressive styling language of Kia versus the organic shapes of Hyundai. It will likely also offer the 6 speed manual + theta 4 cylinder combo. From pics I have seen thus far, this might be Mr. Schreyer’s crowning achievement over at Kia thus far.)
As a brief aside, someone needs to do a write-up of the two pronged brand strategy over at Hyundai/Kia. I call it organic vs “keen edge dynamic”…
I do think the TL is the best blend of performance, style, reliability and the all important 3rd peddle. The J32A3 is an under-appreciated gem of a motor that spins freely and eagerly to its redline all day long. Just keep in mind that the clutch job, brembo front brakes, and 100k timing service will be your biggest cost items . The interior is going to age very well and the even though thousands are around everywhere, the styling language will also age well.
TSX – Great car. In the used market, if the TL is in the same price range, I think the TL represents the better value. You sacrifice only a little in fuel mileage (nearly none on the hwy) and gain a better interior, more insulated ride, better tractibility, and arguably the better looking car.
RL – not manual, and it seems your family loves manual, so that is a big trade-off. Plus, I think Honda/Acura auto tranny’s of that vintage are questionale. Plus it was the first application of AWD, so there might be some first gen teething issues with the automatic + SH-AWD. Great choice though if you want a 4wd snow beast.
oops…one more thing….
Did you know the last gen accord (triangle rear LED lights) came in a 6 speed sport version.
This might be THE car to get. It uses the 3.0 ‘J’ engine from the accord, but pairs it with the 6 speed tranny from the accord coupe. Very hard to find one, but definitely a sleeper that will be quite unique.
BUT, i dont think it offered the LSD (limited slip) that came standard in the 6 speed TL.
good luck
See my comment above about that model. It seemed like a brilliant option, aaagreed.
That would be what I’d say to go with as well, if you can find it. It sounds like it would have what your parents are looking for.
How about another possibility? Spend about $15,000 on a brand new left-over 2010 Hyundai Sonata with stick and factory (or dealer installed factory sanctioned and warranted) Bluetooth? It’ll be a 4 cylinder car, but plenty of pep (175hp), 0-60 in <9 seconds, and the interior is full sized.
Yep, the car is a bit generic looking but the interior is really first class, plus it has the benefit of having been built since 2005 or so, and has had virtually all of the bugs worked out.
Despite a list price of $19,000 it should be able to pick one up for about $14,000 to $15,000 brand new with a long warranty.
Then put the extra unused money towards a car for you (!) young man, and maybe some college courses for you.
I’ll echo the V6 6MT Accord *sedan* (2006 & 2007). Save some cash over the TL….but you lose some flash I guess. Just look for the 2002 Acura TL Type S wheels. That’s the big visual give-away.
Closer to a 4DSC than any 2004+ Maxima.
The 2011 Sonata is indeed on sale, though I don’t know whether there is a stop due to the weird door lock. Either way, if your parents are comfortable with an out of warranty purchase I vote for the TSX. It’s styling is cleaner and less contrived, it will get slightly better mileage, and they are very well equipped.
Still, for the same/less cash the new Hyundai will have a 10 year warranty, and I saw it in person at the Chicago auto show… it is VERY handsome…
If those are the only options, then I like the TL.
However, I would take a look at the last-gen Legacy GT and Outback XT.
New-Legacy 2.5 with MT. Should be less that 20k out the door.
Used-Legacy GT, though I don’t know how much they cost.
How about a Mazda6 – 4 door, good reliability, probably the sportiest of the family sedans and plenty available with a 5 speed. Another option would be the MazdaSpeed6, the fire breathing (somewhat) version of the 6.
I rented a late model 6 and was really impressed with responsiveness, steering feel and suspension. Great ride.
A lot of people have mentioned the Accord with the V6 and the six speed in the sedan. It’s a great car but I imagine it’s even harder to find than a TSX or TL with a stick.
Additionally, before I bought the TSX I had a 2004 Accord V6 sedan and while it was faster than the Acura, it was not without it’s problems, and the Acura rides nicer.
You might want to put the Civic Si sedan on the list. It has more room than the TSX and it is faster. The TSX looks better and feels more solid, but I went with the Civic because I needed the back seat room. The Accord felt like a boat.
My ’07 Si had tranny problems, but I think they fixed that for ’08 and beyond.
@ krazykarguy
I agree about the Honda mowers! They suck! Everything about the machine lasted except for the transmission, and their customer service was horrible. I thought they were the be all and end all for mowers until I bought a Toro. The Toro is BY FAR the best lawn mower I have ever owned, and it’s American made to boot! Thats a combination I can live with. (sorry to derail the thread, but figured this was useful info. Car guys love their mowers too!)
Disagree. My parents bought a Honda riding lawn mower in 1986 for $800. He sold it last year to a dealer for $500. 22 years old and still mowing like a champ…
but I digress, back to cars.
My thoughts
1) buy used directly from the owner with service records. No need to go to a dealership unless you enjoy that sales process
2) buy used period. The initial 3 yr depreciation is a pain and should be somebody else problem
3) Acura is probably the best option for purchasing a vehicle for a long time. They don’t depreciate very quickly but this also shows up in a higher buy-in price
Car-specific
1) Acura trannies are not great in 2004s. I would suggest only buying a 2005 or newer
2) 2004 TSX has issues with AC repairs. Again recommend 2005 and newer
3) the RL never caught on so you can name your price here. But lugging around AWD is not fun unless you need/use it
4) TSX is a substantially smaller car than the TL
I agree with checking out the Civic. And everyone should drive each of them. Or at least Mom should, as the fun quotient seems to mean a lot to her. She might also want to try a Mazda3. Similar quality, and lots of fun.
I’ll have to recommend the new Sonata. Hyundai has really been on top of things lately, it has a great warranty and the early reviews are quite glowing (See Aaron Gold’s review @ cars.about.com, he loved it and usually knows what he’s talking about).
How about a Nissan Altima? I recommend the SE-R for added flavor. Fast, tight, 6-spd, huge trunk with big opening, and 30mpg hwy is no prob.
-1 for the Sonata because you NEVER buy a 1st year of production model.
As a former Honda fanboy and having owned a 04 Accord EXL-V6 Coupe and having driven the other vehicles here are my take on your other choices.
Last gen TL – OK car and had IMO the nicest interior of this group. Real aluminum trim vs silver plastic on the 05+ RL. That being said the suspension is soft, the engine sounds like nothing, and the the interior doesn’t age well. The leather in that car is nice and soft when new, but a friend’s 05 with 50k miles has the leather looking very worn. He takes good care of it too. It’s pretty hard to get 3 people in the back seat due to it’s odd shape.
Last gen RL – Drives really nice and cool features, however silver plastic has no place in a $40k+ car. No manual trans but I definitely like most other aspect more than the TL. Very good sounding sound system. SH-AWD is also a plus.
Last gen TSX – Drives OK but just a Euro/JDM spec Accord. When I got in it I immediately thought to myself that the interior looks exactly the same as the EX-L Accord of this generation. Contrary to Fanboy tales the engine is nothing to write home about. It’s pretty quiet and that’s about it.
Current gen Accord – Avoid. previous Gen is better in every aspect.
No opinions here, but that pic reminded me of when Acura made a good-looking car. They probably fired that TL’s designer for some kind of blasphemy.
Thanks for the advice everyone. One more car I should have added to the original list is the Elantra Touring, seeing how it’s pretty much a direct replacement for our current Elantra right down to the basic engine design. Anyhow every car that I mentioned and those that everyone here mentioned are on the list now. I’ll admit my parents have a preference for FWD/AWD since it seems winters around here aren’t getting any better, which is why I initially left the RWD cars off the list. Personally I don’t have a problem with the (RWD) truck in the snow, even with the torque-happy 4.3, but to each their own and I won’t argue that. They don’t even mind the torque steer of a FWD car either. Heck even the old Elantra will tug at you a bit if you floor it/dump the clutch at 5 grand, believe it or not.
Fuel economy wise it’s a tossup, the TL/TSX/Accord triplets all about the same. It seems the one thing my dad is stuck on is maintenance down the road. The 4-banger Accord and TSX both use a timing chain versus the belt on the TL’s J32. Of course the latter’s J32 is still a nicer engine than the K24s in the former two, so if it comes down to a TSX vs a TL/AV6, a test drive will hopefully settle it.
When it comes to availability, for some reason there’s no shortage of stick shift TLs and TSXs, and stick shift AV6s even pop up occasionally. Manual Lexus and Nissan models are in short supply, however. Looks like it will come down to what is available when the time comes, then test-drives to whittle it down further.
Thanks again everyone!
Ian A.