TTAC Commentator Libertyman03 writes:
Hi, just wanted to say that this is one of my favorite posts on TTAC. I look for Piston Slaps everyday. And since I value the advice, and the comments from the others, I decided to write in with my question: I have a Jeep Liberty (hence my username), and I like it a lot. But it uses SO MUCH GAS.
I have tried changing my driving style, change the oil regularly, change air filters and what not, and still it sucks down gas. It’s an ’03 with 82,000 miles, so it still has lots of life, but I can’t help but think getting rid of it for something more fuel efficient would be a good idea.My question then; what else could I do to stretch the Jeep’s fuel mileage?
Or should I just trade the Jeep on something smaller and more fuel efficient? My parent’s are leaning toward the latter, but I like the 4WD of the Jeep (I live in Pennsylvania, and winters can be pretty bad). If I get a new car, what should I get? I want something pre-owned, preferable 4 or 5 doors, and manual. I would also like to keep it under $8000.
Sajeev answers:
Finding a fuel efficient Jeep Liberty (sans Diesel) is like meeting an honest and transparent PR Flack. So think about this: the more efficiently you drive in the city, the closer you get to the vehicle’s EPA highway mileage rating. If that top figure isn’t acceptable, you got the wrong ride.
But still, addressing mechanical wear or unnecessary body add-ons is mandatory to see some sort of improvement. For example: fixing under inflated tires, removing off-road tires and body ornamentation is a good start. If you have the Liberty’s roof rack or light bar installed, sell them!
Then again, penny-wise and pound-foolish: with an $8000 budget, you’re selling a perfectly good Jeep for somebody’s problems masked behind the sheetmetal of something more efficient. But is it cost efficient? One unplanned trip to the mechanic on your “new” car negates any fuel savings for months. It’s not worth the risk. Who cares if you bought the wrong vehicle? Stick with the enemy you know.
Bonus! A Piston Slap Nugget of Wisdom:
Since all vehicles pass EPA noise pollution guidelines, installing a high flow, cold-air intake actually helps your vehicle’s mileage. Slightly. Very, very slightly.
The logic goes like this: deleting the factory’s intake resonators and necked-down tubing results in less effort at throttle tip-in. And if that decreased effort to reaches the same cruising speed, you burn less gas than before. But the good aftermarket intakes aren’t cheap: and $250 buys plenty of fuel.
The smarter move is to replicate their work via Home Depot plumbing section, capping off resonators and replacing small diameter tube, DIY style. While you might save enough fuel to justify the effort years (yes, really) from now, you’ll enjoy better throttle response and a “cooler” engine note. And you’ll do something entertaining in your spare time: it sure as hell makes me feel better about all the gas I’m burning!
(Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com)
Subaru Forester or Outback. Great reliability, so a pretty safe bet used. Not superb mileage, about 22-25. Is that a good enough improvement? More fun to drive in the bargain.
I would prefer the Outback or Legacy Wagon. The Outback is actually quite a bit more commodious than the Forester, gets roughly the same mileage and is based on a better chassis. The Legacy is even better, being very near to sporty.
Subaru people love the Impreza, and for good reason, but the Legacy has always been the better made car.
Although I am a dedicated Subaru person myself, I’d say for the writer’s uses, a 2WD car with snow tires would work just fine. Too many people think they NEED 4WD, and very few actually do.
@littlehulkster:
That’s quite an interesting comment seeing as the Impreza’s made in Japan while the Legacy is made in GASP! the union state of Indiana (but actually a non-union plant).
Being said, I’m not sure I agree with the “better made” (I’m taking that to mean assembled) statement and would say it’s better engineered or more highly engineered. The Impreza is a base model, and it shows with the lack of noise deadening materials compared to the Legacy. I love my Impreza, but I would trade up to a Legacy for the better refinement.
I don’t know what you mean by “so much gas”. I recently read a consumer complaint about a Ford Focus that ‘only’ got 26 mpg in town.
Your $8000 budget will get you a well-used economy car, but then you’ll face reliability and repair issues. For example, a family member just bought an 02 Altima for $8000, with 70k miles, here in western PA. They traded a 90 Taurus, so the reliability went way up.
If your Liberty is reliable, keep it, and don’t worry much about the gas. Every $100 you spend in repairs on another vehicle equals about 3 weeks of driving your Liberty.
Not to enter a rat hole, but perceived fuel savings on a different vehicle (like a hybrid) is a very, very slow way to save money, unless the jump is extraordinary. Your calculation here is very similar. When I bought my 05 xB, I calculated that it would take me 12 years to break even on the fuel economy improvement found in the 05 Prius, due to the $5k higher price of the Prius. Similarly, spending $8k on a newer car (maybe $5k after trade-in), just to save a little on gas, will take you many years to recoup.
As for your Liberty, there isn’t much you can do to improve it. As for a different car, I was thinking Compass (if you like Jeep), or Subaru.
For a newer car like that, fuel costs is usually well behind depreciation. If you drive under 10k-12k miles per year, it can easily be behind insurance expense, as well.
Just food for thought…far too many people ditch a car over gas mileage, only to wind up worse off (and many never even know it, since depreciation isn’t a regular cash expense!)
Apart from that nugget, all the prevailing wisdom about tire pressure and filters is out there in spades. There are no special/secret tricks to make a huge difference (filters, oils, etc)–if there were, they’d already be standard equipment on the car.
Just out of curiosity, how much gas sucking does it do? Not many 4WD or AWD cars muster more than 25 MPG. If you’re currently getting 15 MPG, then moving from 15 to 25 saves you only hundreds–not thousands–of dollars per year.
If you are currently running snow tires or off-road tires all year around, then you could invest in proper tires for the other 3/4 of the year to save fuel costs and give better on-road behavior. If you aren’t running snow tires in the winter, then just get a FWD sedan and go with two sets of tires–you’ll get better on-road behavior, have better on-road snow capability with snow tires, and could double your fuel efficiency.
Sajeev says, “Who cares if you bought the wrong vehicle? Stick with the enemy you know.”
While I agree, there is always risk changing vehicles, the Jeep at 80K is a bit of a ticking time bomb. I can think of a lot of $8K vehicles that are more likely to get you to 200K miles, less expensively. Also, trucks (including SUVs) aren’t as safe as cars, specifically in rollover where the standards were different. So, is the risk worth it?
For example, A quick check online finds a single owner 2006 Toyota Corolla with 60K miles for about $7K.
Disaster certainly fits your frame of thinking, no wonder why you choose that name.
There is a lot of “what ifs” and “could be”
If the strongest argument you can muster is that the car could “potentially have problems” and “possibly tip over” than thats not much argument at all.
To be frank we don’t have the whole picture here financially.
Its agreed upon that selling a car because the mileage isnt great is kinda stupid.
We don’t know if the owner bought new and how they treat their car. We have an 04 Grand Cherokee that is just shy of 100K and because we took care of it, and its been good to us, we dont want to get rid of it. The Jeep isn’t certain to be a time bomb, thats just hyperbole from the import lovers crowd.
Buying any used car has its risks, knowing thy enemy, especially from birth is a good idea.
To be honest it seems that going from a Liberty to a Corolla would not make this person happy either. I would stick with it, especially at this age and mileage.
A lot of people buy vehicles like the Liberty, because they’re cheap. Cheap to purchase. The problem is they usually don’t turn out to be cheap in the long run…when factoring atrocious mileage and costly service.
As far as safety is concerned, it isn’t just that a SUV is more likely to roll over, but what happens when it does. Roof crush requirements, under FMVSS-216, are not as stringent for trucks as they are for cars.
My main point; as with all things in life, there is risk both ways…with change…or with staying pat.
If the original poster’s concern is lowering his risk, historical evidence suggests moving to a safer and more reliable car, vs. the Jeep Liberty.
Just recently I saw a Liberty that rolled over repeatedly on I-94 in Detroit and the roof was slightly bent. I couldn’t believe how well it withstood it. As far as ticking time bomb?? That’s bogus… Jeeps are built for ruggedness and will last well past 200,000 miles. That is why they put a steel timing chain in the 3.7L engine.
As far as gas mileage. The best mileage I’ve seen was 22-24 mpg combined city/highway on a two-wheel drive model with a stick. That 4-wheel drive weighs a lot. You are SOL on the MPG but I would keep it.
@ Disaster:
As far as safety is concerned, it isn’t just that a SUV is more likely to roll over, but what happens when it does. Roof crush requirements, under FMVSS-216, are not as stringent for trucks as they are for cars.
How about instead of requiring every vehicle to (eventually) have a 1/2 ton roof, mandate roof crush requirements based on driver competence (via DUI, crash, suspension history and experience). Restrict such drivers to such vehicles and the world would be a better place. Let normal people buy cars without A-pillars the size of tree trunks.
ihatetrees
**Getting on SOAPBOX**
Its an incorrect listing of 1/2 ton roof.
It was stated back in 2001-2 (before the current Exploder hit the market) that a vehicle of this kind (light truck, as defined by the NHTSA back in ’74), that roof should hold 2-1/2 times the weight of the vehicle. (3box cars, have a higher tolerance / lift off because of their inherent lower design)
It was negotiated through the bastards known as NHTSA and the automakers.. down to 1-1/2, because they deemed it too expensive to put material into the pillar of the vehicle.
They thought it would be too expensive and make the vehicle too heavy and too expensive.
Yet they turn around and put the band-aid of roll – stability control, Tire Pressure Monitoring systems and a bunch of other b.s software to counter the effects of a top heavy vehicle.
But ya don’t fix the problem with a band-aid and claim its resolved.
Ya change the inherent design of the vehicle.
There are TWO (actually three) main components of fail in every SUV / CUV. One if the design of a higher center of gravity, reinforced by the awd system that is moot / pointless when strapped with ALL SEASON TIRES and the tires either not designed for this particular KIND vehicle, and three… the operator, who is clueless enough to confuse and operate this like any other CAR (3 box vehicle).
On top of..
The main failure for the vehicle, is the absolute failure in the ability to do a BASIC, driver EDUCATION GRADE maneuver, called accident avoidance.
These vehicles CUVs / SUVs FAIL MISERABLY because of their inherent top heavy design.. making a quick left, or a quick right, to correct / over-correct DEADLY.
SUVs / CUVs only differ in design, being body on frame / ladder or UNIBODY. Purpose is the same, safety is still lax, based on the size and height of vehicle.
I have to side with Roundel and Pgcoolddad on this one. One of the few things that Daimler did right (maybe the only thing) with Chrysler was insist on high safety ratings. That’s why even the Sebring gets 5 stars. As for the Jeeps in general and the Lib in particular, they have excellent roof crush ratings.
Start with the basics
1. do you need 4wd/awd? If you don’t, you can save MPG by moving to a 2wd system
2. do you need a SUV? if you don’t, go to a little vehicle (i.e. car)
3. how long are you going to keep the jeep / next car? Factor this into your cost of ownership
4. Tax and reg fees are non-refundable. In CA that’s a 10% hit minimum everytime you buy a car
I have to agree with the majority..
But will DEFINITELY disagree that needing awd / 4wd is a bunch of crap. No one needs it.. its just SOLD that way.
And buying a Subaru Legacy or Outback.. means ya still have shitty economy, high teens even in the Impreza hatch. Also remember, a Legacy is easily LARGER than a Liberty, and competes with the middle of the pack mess: CRV, RAV4, SRX, Sportage, Escape (current and larger Liberty, Equinox etc etc etc.) There isnt a feature among any of them that makes them stand out…
They all have awd / 4wd. They all have all seasons, they all have virtually the same cargo capacity and targeted at the same audiences, to do the same thing. Even MB has the GLK and BMW the X3 to pander to the same audiences, their economy isnt any better. Only differences will be the motor and or curb weight, one influences the other (curb weight < engine size)
And getting in the 20s isnt so hot for a vehicle of this size.. with of a motor OF THAT A SIZE.
There are hundreds of thousands of people who have 2wd and snow tires.. that live n Pa, NJ, MD and or DE, just like you, without the 3.7ltr.
Jeep doesnt sell efficiency.. they sell Jeep.
And anything of this same size is a 2wd = Compass / Patriot = same concept / purpose with even less jeepness Or respect.
8g's can buy ya a lot, if ya know exactly what ya want.
Any Civic / Corolla / Focus / Cobalier does a fine job. Ya might even pick up a decent Focus wagon for a decent price.
Heck ya could pick up a Mazda3 hatch, a VW golf or jetta wagon.
Sajeev, not sure I buy the cold air intake thing. Some guys have dyno’d their rigs and found no improvement in fuel economy, or maybe just a slight increase in Hp at WOT. And the goofy oil-soaked air filter mods? Same thing. YMMV.
Some guys claim that if you remove that activated carbon filter downstream of the air filter, you can improve fuel economy. CARB would throw a hissy fit if they found out, but that’d be a cheap mod to un-restrict the intake, if you wanted to try it. I haven’t bothered.
I’m not sure if I buy it either, but I still wanted to mention it. All I know is that (on some cars) you can use less of your right foot when you eliminate intake restrictions and fab a hi-flow CAI that mimics the OEM design.
Of course, any setup with a conical air filter that isn’t sealed OEM style means nothing in this discussion. Underhood temperatures can easily be 50+ degrees higher than outside air, and economy/performance suffers.
I personally would be rather leery of a so called “cold air intake”, especially if it uses one of those cotton gauze filters. I’ve seen the damage those filters do to piston rings and cylinder walls over the long haul and it just isn’t worth it. There is no free lunch folks – the stock air filter is restrictive because it’s keeping crap out of your engine. Now, if you could find a larger stock style airbox that could be modified to fit, this might be of benefit with it’s greater surface area.
While it may not buy him much in the way of fuel economy, LibertyMan could change out the differentials and refill with a good synthetic gear oil. The T-case already has ATF+4 in it, which is synthetic. If this Jeep has the full-time t-case, don’t leave it in full-time mode unless you really need to. Once the snow stops flying put it in 2WD High and leave it there.
“Is this trip necessary?”
Is starting your propulsion unit vital? Can the trip be delayed? Can a trip be combined with another later.
Can you keep the conveyance parked by delaying a trip, then perhaps another trip?
Some trips can not be delayed or avoided such as a trek to one’s place of employment and work-arounds such as ride-sharing are not always desired or feasible.
However, the more often the gas consuming beast can be kept still, not sucking in the fuel, the less fuel consumed and the less the expenditure for that fuel and less wear-and-tear and longer periods between maintenance and other savings.
Make the lazy vile spawn walk, ride their bikes, etc rather than bum rides.
Do whatever is practical and possible to defer engaging that new-fangled slectric starter device.
Depending upon personal circumstances there is a possibility that one can minimize driving time or one’s best efforts may result in no real change in driving amount.
I am currently semi-blessed in being able to drive around 2/3rd less than the norm for me due to being unemployed and by planning ahead to purchase enough groceries in one trip to last a couple weeks or more and knowing there’s a doctor’s appointment a month or more ahead I planned previously to delay a grocery shopping trek for when on the way back to the shanty from that doc visit.
Then there are the shunned trips.
A rainy day, bored, a stray thought says a trip across town to the book store or the mall would be relatively cheap entertainment, allowing me to people watch as I wander the mall repetitively, getting a couple miles or more of walking exercise as I roam the stores and enclosed open spaces, wandering and perusing and feeling akin to a perv as I glance upwards at the female clad in that short frilly skirt purposefully calling out for eligible males to be attracted to her likely in the hope of snaring a male willing to support her.
Been noticing more of that female behavior from the gals in my age group since the economy has smacked so many in my socio-economic group.
But, despite the ease of clambering aboard the 4.8 liter-propelled wonder with the final drive ratio of 3.73 and a 4-speed auto tranny and 5,280 or so pounds of mass needing to be propelled against gravity and various friction sources refraining from that mall trip along with other excursions has led to a minimization of fuel expenditure along with hopefully maximizing component thus vehicle life expectancy.
A rough mental estimate considering typical yearly accumulated mileage of the prior three years or so, when steps were undertaken to minimize driving, is that it will require another 18 years or so to reach the 100,000 accumulated mile mark.
Of course, what works for a Disgruntled Old Coot may not be feasible for thee and thine circumstances.
+1. Kudos for pointing out the all too often overlooked obvious answer.
@obbop: Lots of wisdom in your post. Postponing trips, combining trips, saves a LOT of fuel, and wear and tear on the car. A lesson re-learned after the price spike in 2008, where our fuel went to $4.28/gallon. Even with my relatively fuel efficient cars, a fill ups at $50 were enough to make me change my habits.
100% agree.
Lets look at a scenario.
Let’s say you now travel 10,000 miles in a year and average 18mpg with that Liberty. That is 555 gallons of gas, or about $1580 at the current price of gas. That is just gas, and doesn’t include depreciation and service which might be $20 cents a mile (for a cheaper car.) That’s another $2000. Increasing fuel mileage to…say 25mpg only lowers fuel cost $400.
On the other hand, if you combine and reduce trips, and get down to 8,000 miles per year, you’d save over $700.
Combine the two, high mileage car and less trips and you save over $1000.
@Disaster: I was with you up until you mentioned a different car… That’s where this would fall apart. Any savings have to be realized with the existing car. If he spends $8000 (or even less) to get into another car, saving $700 on fuel is going to take a long time to recover the money invested.
Oh, I just looked up and see that Libertyman sold the Jeep.
Moot point.
geozinger, I was assuming he’d get a decent resale price for the Jeep making the upgrade cost much lower.
1. Convert to electric fan (if not equipped stock).
2. Remove roof rack and, off road lights, extra antennas, bulbous fender flares.
3. Block off openings in lower air dam.
4. Illegal: Remove cat converter.
As others have suggested,do the math, figure all your costs in. Keep in mind the dealer buys wholsale and sells retail. With fuel rising,your going to take a bath on the Jeep. If you like the Jeep, keep it.
If you want to make a generally emotional decision like buying a car a purely mathematical one, then break out a spreadsheet. Figure out how many miles per year you drive (you probably have an odometer reading on your title if you haven’t been keeping track). Assume you drive the exact same amount with the new car.
Miles per year/MPG = Gallons of gas consumed
Gallons * avg price of fuel say $3.00 = How much you spend on gas
Now plug in the MPG of any car you are considering to that equation. The difference would about how much you would save in money over a year. Using this calculation you see that you only save $1000 a year if you drive 10,000 miles a year and go from a car that is 15mpg to 30mpg. Now figure how much you get for your Jeep and how much you pay for your new car and that is how many years it will take to even see a profit on this deal. In other words – forget it, you will not see a profit, you will spend more money than you get back for a while. By the time you see a profit your “new” car will be your old car and you will be thinking about another one.
So keep your jeep and wait until emotionally you want a new car.
Ah yes, mid-sized SUV’s. Almost all of the fuel mileage of a full sized SUV at about half the utility.
It would be helpful if you told us what mileage the Libery is getting. The EPA rates a 4WD V6 Liberty with auto trans at 15/20 with a combined of 17. Most 6 cyl mid-sized cars combined ratings fall in at around 21-23 MPG. To do better you’ll need to look at something something with a 4 cyl.
If you’re $8000 budget involves financing, and if the Liberty is paid off, then it probably isn’t worth it. Maybe if you’re financing for three years or less on a 4 cyl car you’ll drive for the next ten or more, but otherwise your payoff is just too far out to call the savings in fuel a justification. If you actually NEED the 4WD (and IMO if all your driving in PA winters is on public roads there is little or no actual need) then nothing with significantly better fuel mileage is going to serve you better anyway.
Regarding the “cold” air intakes (CAI), I’d stick with the stock induction system which is TRULY a cold-air intake. The oiled element on the cone filters will coat your MAF sensor leading to a shortened life and/or driveability issues eventually. Plus they filter nowhere as well as the stock pleated paper filter. And sucking underhood air, that’s nowhere near what I would call cold!
Regarding the best thing to do to improve the mileage, get a second set of rims and mount the tallest, skinniest set of all-seasons you can stomach (while keeping the same tire OD to preserve speedometer accuracy), preferably ones with a maximum inflation pressure of 51psi, and then run them rock-hard at 45psi or thereabouts. Keep the stock tires for those weekend trips into the hills and when the deep stuff is on the ground. I would expect to see 2-3mpg improvement with this change.
I just got out of my thirsty 08 Xterra for a 2010 Mazda 3 i and I couldn’t be happier. I also live in Pennsylvania and I can say that the cost of driving a thirsty 4wd suv all year long is not worth the 2 or 3 times a year I actually used the 4wd. I live in walking distance to work. She can sit in my garage.
Dump that POS Liberty before the engine sludges up on you or all the windows fall down in the doors. My old POS 2005 Liberty got 12 mpg @ 75mph. I was able to get 20mpg by cruising at 55mph, and only going up to 60mph for passing.
This is the only car I’ve ever owned that I wasn’t the least bit sad to get rid of.
2003 Libertys don’t have the same window failure mode as the 2005-06 models do. Also, a well maintained 3.7L isn’t pre-destined to sludging. I have a 2.7L that doesn’t have a speck of sludge in it, in spite of the engine’s reputation.
Lots of good suggestions, but I’d add that there are no magic bullets. I’d tend to want to get rid of an older Jeep Liberty, but it really depends on your needs and finances. IMHO, reducing as many trips as possible, and combining trips so you are driving on a warmed-up engine is your best bet for saving gas.
Sajeev’s advice is solid, but I disagree on the point about the intake. Unless you have a diesel, an intake is not going to affect fuel economy in any significant way. No matter how much you reduce the flow restrictions, the throttle has far more effect and the computer will adjust the throttle to keep the air/fuel ratio the same. On most vehicles, you will be able to get a bit more high-end power with an aftermarket intake, but it’s also possible to reduce low-end torque with a larger diameter intake. As redmondjp said, oiled cotton gauze filters are also inferior to paper filters when it comes to filtration efficiency, though not so much that it would be likely to decrease engine life in normal driving conditions.
Do you track fuel economy, Libertyman03? Is your fuel economy typical for that vehicle? Figure out how much you’d save per year by going with a more fuel efficient alternative, and determine for yourself whether it’s enough to justify the cost, hassle, and trade-offs in buying something smaller. If you want to keep the costs down and go used, continue maintaining your vehicle properly, with the tire pressure at or slightly above that recommended on the door sticker, and keep an eye out for a good deal on a well-cared-for private owner sale that you can trust. Don’t be in a hurry to replace the Jeep. The more time you spend looking, test-driving, and thinking, the better your final decision will be.
We own a 2006 Liberty CRD. We bought it specifically because it allowed my wife’s small business to claim a vehicle tax benefit, and it has a relatively simple (by modern standards) Diesel engine. We run it on B80, with the “B” being my home-brew. This gets the cost per gallon down to about $1.40. The Liberty has 105,000 miles on it and has averaged 29 MPG over its lifetime. On the highway it does about 31 MPG.
Why anyone would have chosen the gasoline version of this car when the Diesel is so much better all around is beyond me.
Probably because he bought it in ’03 when the diesel wasn’t available.
Libertyman03,
If I were you, I would:
– Follow obbop’s advice, in so far as possible.
– Patch the tires and use my bike. It’s good exercise, it’s fun and the fuel economy is unsurpassed.
– If you have a significant commute, form a car pool. I’m surprised obbop didn’t mention this. Hunt for people in your area who are upside-down on thirsty Tahoes, Yukons, Aspens or Expeditions; they should be motivated to make a carpool work. A two-driver car pool costs you almost nothing while cutting your commute costs by nearly 50%. The more, the merrier, too! Bike around your neighborhood on the weekend and strike up conversations with people who have big, shiny SUVs or pickups with suspiciously clean truck beds.
– While reducing use as much as possible, keep the vehicle for a few more years, get your use out of it, save your momey and then unload it (maybe, ultimately, as a relatively low-mileage vehicle, for its age) in favor of the fuel efficient car you really need. Get two-wheel drive and a set of snows for the winter.
– Then, keep car pooling! Cutting the cost of operating a fuel-efficient car in half is almost as good as cutting the cost of operating a thirsty car in half. There’s also a big hit to depreciation from high mileage. If you can hold your mileage down, you can keep the value up.
Wow! So many comments. Thanks, Sajeev, for answering. I appreciate it.
Hahaha, everyone might groan, but I did get rid of the Jeep. My parents sort of made me do it anyway. I traded it (and I did NOT “take a bath,” I actually got what I paid for it minus about $500) for a 2006 Chevy Cobalt coupe with 40k. I feel like I gained; the ‘Balt gets high twenties or low thirties in mileage, it’s much smaller and therefore more fun, dare I say quicker than the Liberty, and according to the NHTSA, it’s safer. No, I did not make it a mathematical decision…I liked the car, it cost $7000, and it was 3 years newer and 40,000 miles younger than my Liberty. To top it off, it had new tires and hasn’t needed anything yet. And it’s good in the snow!
I’m happy. I need to change my username. Thanks again, everyone!
Libertyman, now Cobaltman…
Congrats. The Coby’s are underrated little cars and seem to hold up well by the folks that I know that own them. I’ve had them as rentals, and they’re nice little cars. It’s not a Benz or a Ferrari, but a solid little car. Good luck!
Jeez…
Neither vehicles inspire confidence in either the automaker or driving in general..
But Im glad at least ya got out of the Liberty. I just feel bad that a Cobalier is what ya got into. Did ya check out the Mazda 3hatch or a used VW hatch.
But…
There isnt a day that goes by that I dont wish Honda would bring over the 3 or 5dr Civic hatch. There is simply no reason why the Accord gained a tire, the Fit exists as a subcompact… without the middle ground.
The Mazda 3 hatch is currently high on my horny car meter…
Only one without awd and with a hatch.
Congrats Libertyman! The Cobalt is probably a set up in terms of performance and obviously so in economy. Probably not very impressive to chicks, but I’m sure you don’t need to worry about that…
Sounds like you didn’t do half bad on the trade at the retail level, new tires are a very good thing to get in the deal and don’t exactly come cheap relative to the car’s asking price. And with that, you certainly don’t need AWD to get around town in snowy conditions.
Now I’m looking forward to a future Piston Slap about your new car. :)
I expect that your Cobalt will be much more pleasant to drive and maintain than the Liberty. You made a good choice.
Unfortunately, the ’06 Chevy Cobalt sedan didn’t do so well in Consumer Reports reliability study. It got black dots (much worse than average) for fuel, suspension, brakes and body integrity. Gotta figure the coupe shares at least the 1st three. The Liberty scored higher (pre ’06) but the lower miles on the Cobalt makes a one to one comparison more difficult.
1. Convert to electric fan (if not equipped stock).
I’ve heard this does almost to effect your MPG because the mechanical fan is clutch driven thus it disengages once your revs are up (IE actually moving). This means its only putting a load on your engine at idle. Is this little bit of idle time per trip adding up to really save you $$$??? I’ve got a Dodge Dakota which has an electric fan AND a mechanical fan, the interweb users groups of this vehicle tell me to go ahead a ditch the mechanical drag on the engine to free up a few HP and save some gas as the electric will be enough. Any advice from the TTAC?
Every single accessory belt or pulley-driven item on the engine will suck fuel and power. Which is why OEMs do their darnedest to remove them.
It’s particularly bad on small cars. A 1.5 liter Civic sees a 15 hp drop when you turn on the belt-driven AC. We sometimes joke that the AC off switch is the “turbo button” on some of these old compacts… because you can gain as much as 10 mph more top-end speed by turning it off.
But… as you scale engine sizes up… the power loss stays relatively constant. I don’t remember where, but someone tested a Corvette and found the same 15 hp loss with the compressor turned on. For a 400 horsepower car, that’s almost nothing.
And consider the compressor is the single most power hungry accessory on the engine… a mechanical fan won’t have nearly the same effect.
If you’re doing it to save gas… well… it’s not going to be much… but if you’re doing it to extract every last “free” pony from the engine and make it more responsive at tip-in… then go ahead and do it.
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Free flow filters do actually make more power on the dyno… but it’s a finicky thing… some modern cars adjust to the extra airflow and actually adjust to it and bring power back down to stock levels. For some cars, they’re not useful at all without an ECU reflash… but you can make some good gains on others. It’s best to consult at an online forum or club where others have done and tested these modifications to find out if they’re worth your time or not.
I’ve been using oiled filters for years. And while it’s true that you have to be more diligent changing your engine oil, as long as you don’t overspray like a spitting baboon when you re-oil the filter element, you won’t have any serious sensor issues.
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Interesting tidbit… AC use on the Prius hardly affects acceleration or fuel economy. Simply because the AC is electrically-powered. Now if I could only figure out how to remove the compressor and install it in my car before I have to give this loaner back…
Well, I’m so pleased not to hear the groans! Yes, I would have loved a Mazda 3 hatch, but I don’t really think I could have found one with the same miles as my Cobalt for $7000.
Sajeev, you can be sure I’ll be looking for piston slaps about the Cobalt too. :) As far as the girls, most of the ones I know drive Cavaliers, so they LOVE the Cobalt…
Accazdatch, yes, I know what you mean about not inspiring confidence in driving…the Cobalt is definitely NOT a Mazda or VW. But it is reasonable, and at least I’m not going to roll over if I go around a turn too quickly.
Trust me, the VW would have cost you more to run in the long haul than the Jeep ever would have. The Cobalt is fine if unexciting, but can’t the same be said of practically any recent Toyota? Don’t let anyone dissuade you – you did ok.
Wheeljack:
The issues that VW have primarily come out of their Mexican plant.
If ya buy from either the South American plant, or the Wolfsburg one.. shouldn’t be any problems
As an owner of an Olds Bravada 2001; I got 11 m.p.g. towing a u-haul dual axle trailer at highway speed. The truck killed me on repairs but, it was fuel-efficient.
My daily driver in Michigan was a ’94 Tempo V-6 with, quality snow tires in winter. The Olds was for my wife because, the Onstar system worked where cell-phones did not.
I suggest getting a scan-gauge II…it will show you how to wring the absolute best MPG out of any car (that doesn’t already have a MPG readout). Having said that:
a) You will be driving like a movie dream sequence
b) You will probably get no more than 20% improvement
YMMV :)
You did well. You drove your Liberty for a few hundred dollars and got a decent car that somebody already ate the depreciation on. And, should you become bitten by the joys of high speed cornering, you can morph your car into a SS version (suspension-wise) pretty easily. Congrats. I hope the new tires are of decent quality. If not, hoon them to death and get some serious rubber!!
You can degrade throttle response with homemade setup. Its easy. Just slap something together. On a Jeep, maybe its not a downgrade. On cars I know it is.
Loud honk intake does not equal better airflow.
Any decent small actual car will be nicer to drive and get 1.5x-2.5x s the MPG, (except it wont be a Jeep which is fun in its way i admit).
An intake will slightly help throttle response, and give you slightly more power at full throttle, but they won’t help your mpg. The reason is because we control how much torque an engine makes by decreasing the air pressure in the intake manifold. It really shouldn’t matter if this pressure drop comes from a partially closed throttle, a restrictive factory intake, or a dirty air filter, should it?
Also, to drive efficiently, just put a sign on your brakes pedal that says “waste gas pedal”. Try coasting to stops and timing lights. Also, in the unlikely event you have a manual, try high throttle settings with low rpm shifting. When the throttle is wide/mostly wide open, you really can reduce the pumping losses, and an intake would be icing on the cake in that case (but again- at partial throttle an intake shouldn’t make a difference)
Compared to its CUV car derived competitors the KJ is pleasantly plump, my CRD comes in at 4500lbs with by obese posterior in it. I’d imagine the Limited Trim line with trailer hitch and sunroof and full skid plates adds another 200+ lbs.
I have one of the rare Diesels. I see 23-25mpg out of mixed rural and suburban driving. My driving style is mellow to borderline hypermiler and I can get more that 25 out of it. Compared to the 2WD 5M 2.3L Ranger it replaced my mpg is frustratingly unresponsive to driving style. I’m within 2mpg regardless of driving like Mrs. Daisy or Niko Bellic.
What really kills the MPG on the Liberty is the 3.73 ratio, 4 speed slushbox and aerodynamics that are only marginally better than a Wrangler. As others have suggested you might try taking off the roof rails if you do a lot of highway.
The rare V6 with 6M came with 3.55, I’ve been poking around the salvage yards to try and find one for swappage. Otherwise there is not much you can do to drastically change fuel economy, its a 1/2 ton pickup truck in a cute package. If you are not going to use the towing and/or off-road capabilities you’re better off with most any other midsize CUV.
The Window regulators on all of the KJs suck. Last fall when I had the 3rd go out (1st time out of warranty) I found this retrofit kit and installed it:
http://www.steigerperformance.com/products/sp13001.html
It took me ~90min to install it, its like night and day when you look at it versus the OEM flimsiness.
I think in most cases it doesnt make a lot of sense to go from car to car to “save money on gas” unless:
1) You drive a ton of miles and/or your mileage increases signifcantly (double or better)
2) You an also switch from premium to regular (a slight help)
3) the new car is super cheap
4) Brings down your insurance & parts costs (a civics tires & brakes are going to be cheaper than an S2000’s or Porsche’s)
It’s VERY hard to recover your money when you may have larger repairs, higher insurance (on a newer car), etc.
On the other hand….if safety & cargo space are not important it’s NOT too hard to recover your gas money with a motorcycle (esp used)
I bought a bike when I was interested in the bike itself (not saving gas) and it’s paid off. I doubt I’ll EVER recover my gas money on it unless I keep it 10+ years, however it DOES make my monthly costs cheaper in insurance, gasoline and car expenses. Lets compare:
1) STi: Good tires $150-$200 each * 4. Bike, same cost * 2
2) STi: Premium gas averaging 20-21mpg mixed. Bike, 40-45mpg, regular gas
3) STi: insurance @ $150/month when used as primary vehicle (12k+ miles/year). Bike: $35/month full coverage and STi drops to $100/month (6k miles/year)
4) STi: Oil change 2xyear @ $55. Bike: Once per year @ $85
It’s not saving me a ton of money but I bought the bike for other reasons (fun), so using it as a gas saver works for me.
I like the looks of the cobalt. I would love to have the SS Sedan. The ultimate sleeper car (IMO). Unfortunately they made them for, what, a whopping 2 years.