Steven writes:
Hello Sajeev, I have a question along the lines of the Piston Slap article “Save Me From My X5.” I have a 2007 four door GTI with DSG that I purchased new on October 12, 2006. The car has just about 35,000 miles and the factory warranty is expiring October 12, 2010. I really like the car and would be happy to keep it for a few more years. I’m dreaming of no car payments.
My GTI is basically reliable. I’ve been left on the side of the road twice from faulty ignition coils, but those are about to be replaced via a recall. The only other issue I have is that it uses a quart of oil every 1,200 miles. The car is completely stock. My worries about keeping the car out of warranty would be the oil usage and the complex DSG transmission. Yes, VW is providing extending the warranty on certain DSG models to 10/100,000 but (from what I can tell) it does not apply to 2006 and early 2007 builds.
Here’s my question to you: Should I buy the Volkswagen “RealDriver” extended warranty provided by Fidelity Warranty Services? The options for the plan are set up a la carte style, you can choose level of coverage, deductible, total miles, and total time. But, it is set up so that there’s not much of a price difference between the most basic and most comprehensive levels. So, if I got it I would go all they way, getting “platinum” coverage with an extra 75,000 miles and five years above the factory warranty. I was quoted a price of $3,300 for this coverage (from the dealer where I bought the car). The salesperson was clear that there is room for negotiation on this price. Thanks for your assistance!
Sajeev answers:
If you aren’t a wrench-turning forum junky, an extended warranty on any European car is a good idea. Judging by VW’s website I’d recommend the middle or top option, simply for the expensive electrical components it covers. If the difference is less than $500, I’d jump for the top spot.
Regarding pricing: forget about negotiation, you better comparison shop! Getting the best deal isn’t your problem, because manufacturer-branded extended warranties have a retail and dealer price, just like the cars on the lot. So you email all the VW dealerships’ Internet Sales Managers in a 200-ish mile (or more) radius of your home and see which person shows you the most love.
At the risk of VW bashing, I’m going there: oil consumption and ignition coil problems make your car far less reliable than others in that price range. While Steven Lang likes GTI’s overall, he mentions the problems of owning a not-brand-new Vee Dub in a recent Hammer Time (LINK: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/hammer-time-avantis-inferno/) article. So don’t be too surprised if the warranty company already “gamed” the system to exclude a common fail point, and that you’ll always spend a large chunk of money on normal maintenance. Keep up with the servicing and find an independent VW garage (with references) so you can enjoy the GTI for a long time with minimal cash outlay every month.
Bonus! A Piston Slap Nugget of Wisdom:
Selling a car in the retail market with the balance of a warranty inspires customer confidence and ensures a higher asking price. But if you trade-in your car before that extended warranty runs out, return/pro-rate the coverage to recover some of your cash. Read the fine print, it’s there. Always read the fine print!
(Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com)
I’m a big VW fan but I would be weary of the DSG. I’ve been hearing about issues with them. If you go with the extended warranty, make sure the DSG is covered.
Set the $3300 aside and self-warranty against major repairs.
Get an OBD2 cable and VAG-COM and self-diagnose for minor problems. You don’t have to be a forum junkie, you just Google whatever error code pops up and let search take you to the junkie wisdom.
Find an independent VW mechanic who is competent and knows you are also. They may not be cheaper than the dealership by much, but they don’t have institutionalized incentives to abuse their customers with nonessential work.
Sometimes I don’t know why I put up with VW’s shit, but when I spend a little time behind the wheel of something more reliable/mainstream/pedestrian it all makes sense. It’s a car you have to not drive to appreciate.
Sometimes I don’t know why I put up with VW’s shit, but when I spend a little time behind the wheel of something more reliable/mainstream/pedestrian it all makes sense.
Very well said. And know that you’re not alone, pal…
An extended warranty is a bad bet. Expensive, riddled with trick provisos, exclusions and deductions, it will cost more than most folks will save on repairs otherwise the warranty companies would be bankrupt. Dealers love their succulent 50-percent profit margin, immensely higher than what they make selling a new car! Instead, invest the premium in a Certificate of Deposit and pay for repairs as required.
If you still think it’s a good idea, and cannot be persuaded otherwise, research the warranty companies. Check with the Better Business Bureau. Fidelity Warranty Services has 155 complaints registered against it in the past 36-months with the one BBB I checked. Most importantly, check with local independent VW mechanics. Ask them which warranty companies have a reputation for paying up.
http://tinyurl.com/3zu7ad
I had an Audi w/ a Fidelity extended warranty. Full-monte gold ++ coverage. They found every possible way to not pay for things and then made it a PITA for the dealer to get paid. One time they tied the car up for a week waiting for an adjuster to show up.
I sold that POS quick and cashed in the remainder of the warranty. Overall, Fidelity lost about $6000 on that car, I lost far more.
I wouldn’t call two strandings and 1200-mile oil consumption “reliable”. Many other cars of that vintage haven’t broken anything yet.
My 02 Passat had a 5-valve engine, and at 30k miles it was consuming a quart every 1000 miles. It was also plagued with electrical problems. Discovery of the oil consumption was the last straw, and I traded it.
If you really love the car, it sounds like the top warranty is the only way to go, but be careful of what it doesn’t cover.
Exactly what I was thinking. Being stranded is a bad mark on reliability. Having it twice and eating a quart of oil every 1200 miles is something my wife would be very upset about and wanting to get rid of it. If you still have a factory warranty, I would be telling the service dept about the cars oil consumption.
I had a 02 Formula Firebird that would be about 1/2 quart down at about 5000 miles. I considered that a lot of oil usage. It is not uncommon with the LS1 engine. But it isn’t a bright spot either.
Unfortunately, manufacturers are often very stingy when warranting for oil burning. I recall Ford having a policy of a quart every 1000 miles before they would agree there was a problem. This is absurd to me. You’d have to put 5 or 6 quarts in, between oil changes.
Also, consider the engine and exhaust was never designed to digest that much oil. It gunks up the valves and fouls the catalytic converter.
Steven02 said “Having it twice and eating a quart of oil every 1200 miles is something my wife would be very upset about and wanting to get rid of it. If you still have a factory warranty, I would be telling the service dept about the cars oil consumption.”
buy a mk2 gti with a 8v (super reliable) or 16v and yer set. no payments and easy/cheap to maintain!
Volkswagens are like blonds — they look great for a few years, but they do not age well. I could not put up with a quart of oil/1,200 mile consumption. My 1972 MB 280 SEL 4.5 did not touch a drop between oil changes and it had 165,000 miles on the clock.
DTMFA
Twotone
$3300 for something that MIGHT happen and MIGHT be covered? I’d put it in the bank in case something DOES happen.
John
Only a Wankel engione should be expected to consume that much oil. That alone would be a show stopper for me.
It just goes to show you that reliability is a relative quality. Two strandings and a quart of oil every 1200 miles from a 3 year old car is not what I would call reliable. I had a ’87 Acura Integra with 170K that NEVER left me stranded and didn’t use any oil between oil changes. My ’99 Toyota has never been in the shop and never left me stranded and at 120K uses no oil. That is reliable. If a car left me stranded once in anything less than 100K miles I would get rid of it and never buy that brand again. I owned a Ford that was shot at 70K and I’ll never buy a Ford again until they refund the cost of that POS.
A quart of miles every 1,200 miles is unacceptable for a car of that age/mileage. I say move on.
Of course, if you only check the oil right after turning off the engine, you’re not getting accurate readings . . . . .
True. But if you did, and if you really thought you were “down a quart” and started adding willy-nilly, pretty soon you’d have so much oil in the crankcase that you’d be getting your “normal” reading without waiting. What a bizarre thought.
Somewhere I heard performance cars used oil. My L 76 small block Corvette used a quart every 1000 miles from the day I bought it, until I sold it seven years later. (Some leaked). It also never ran any worse than 14 seconds in the quarter mile. The guys at GM always suggested heavier weight oil. What is the big deal? Oil is still cheap.
I fail to see the excitement over the oil usage. IIRC, VW considers a quart in 1000 miles normal usage, as do most other manufacturers. Check the oil every third fill-up, and add as needed. Oil is a LOT cheaper than new-car depreciation.
I very much agree with Gardiner Westbound, an extended warranty is nearly always a bad bet. Put the $3300 in the bank, and use it to fix the car as needed. Chances are you will trade it in before that money is used up, then you are ahead of the game. If you put the $3300 in the stock market and get lucky, you might even have enough to pay for the new car.
I will agree with one thing though, neat as the DSG box is, NO WAY on God’s green Earth would I ever buy one. Or any automatic if I have a choice. I can (and have) change a clutch in my garage, I cannot rebuild an automatic anything in my garage.
“VW considers a quart in 1000 miles normal usage, as do most other manufacturers.”
What? My Honda and my wife’s Toyota don’t burn oil. Heck, even her old T&C didn’t burn oil. Nor did my (and the kids) Mercury Mystiques.
I would like to see some documentation of that claim.
Otherwise, a car going a quart/1000 mi. at 3.5 years, Is on its way to a new motor at 60,000. That is not acceptable.
I agree with Robert. A quart a 1000 miles isn’t normal, and if it is documented as such, I would never buy a car from that brand. I also don’t believe that it is documented anywhere.
Manufacturers and their dealers will tell you that 1 quart/1,000 miles is normal because they do not want to repair it on their own nickel.
If there is a leak, fix it. If not, the car is burning the oil. If it’s losing a quart every 1200 miles at three years old, it will be needing at least emissions work if not valve guides or rings long before it reaches 100,000 miles (what I consider a bare minimum trouble-free range for a modern car).
Our 8-year old/105,000 mile Honda uses no oil at all, none.
First off, I wrote the original letter to Sajeev; I want to thank him for taking the time to reply. Also, thanks for all of the comments; they definitely give me something to think about.
Now, to answer some of those comments… No, my VW is no Acura or Toyota. I knew that when I bought the car. But, for the price, there was nothing else I could find that matched the GTI’s style, performance, safety, comfort, and versatility. Three and a half years later, I still think that.
As for the Acuras, the first generation TSX was my second choice and I had a ’96 Integra SE sedan for almost five years and 80,000 miles. That Integra was the most reliable car I’ve ever owned. In those five years never needed oil and it had only one issue: a clip in the sunroof assembly bent. But, two stranding in 3-1/2 years is not what I would call horrible nor is it a reason to sell the car, especially since the offending parts have been replaced. There’s also no guarantee that a new car would be perfect. Also, it’s financially foolish to rush out and get a new car. Even with the trade, I’d be looking at over $1,000 in sales tax.
So really the main problem is the oil. No oil consumption would be great. But in the greater scheme of things, it’s not that big of a hassle to check the oil level every other fill-up. It’s a far greater hassle to watch $450 leave my checking account every month to pay the car note.
If you don’t do your own repairs, owning a VW product out of warranty is a terrible idea.
All the warranty companies know this and price the policy appropriately. They then fight you tooth and nail to prevent payout. So I don’t think your warranty is worth the money.
Electrical repairs are costly and/or time-consuming. Buy Japanese
My GTI is basically reliable. I’ve been left on the side of the road twice from faulty ignition coils,
Really? Holy Crap, stranded twice in a three year old car. RUN RUN!
My question is this:
If the factory warranty still applies, why aren’t you up your dealer’s a$$ to get him to fix that “normal” oil consumption? I have never had a car use that much oil and considered it normal. To me that signifies it’s on its way to new-engineville. I would definitely get the warranty, you will get your money back in spades because it sounds like your car will certainly require more investment on your part over the next few years to keep it running.
If you still need convincing, just ask your VW Service dept. to price out a replacement engine and installation for you. Guaranteed over $4000 for just that one repair. And don’t forget, you’ll still have the extended warranty for most other repairs you will encounter. One thing though, get a low/no deductible plan if it’s not too expensive of an option.
Get it, get it, get it. Or buy a new car.
for liability reasons almost every manufacturer says a quart (or so) is normal at 1000 miles. However, this should never happen. Stranded twice? what makes you think aging will improve that “reliability” situation? Sell it as long as you have factory warranty. Period.
Unless you won the lottery, or can repair the thing yourself and consider spending every month in the shop a hobby.
hope you have a second car for all the times your VW will be int he shop – warranty or not.
That’s now what the latest issue of Consumer Reports says. But, I’ll believe you instead….
If the part that caused you to be stranded has been recalled and will be replaced I would not worry about that. My 2007 BMW 328xi stranded me at 14,382 miles with a frozen water pump. So it happens. I now have a 2009 Jetta TDI, DSG sedan and love it! Only about 450 miles to go to beat my BMW in not getting me stranded. :)
The oil usage is of more concern. Have you tried to get it corrected under warranty? I suspect though that VW would say that it is within normal range.
As to an extended warranty, I agree with the comments above that it should be very carefully reviewed for exclusions, before buying it. Also, you should be confident that the company providing it will not go out of business during the period it is in effect (does VW guarantee it?).
Normally, I would agree with those who recommend putting $3,300 in the bank if you decide to keep your car. However, as you point out, your car has the DSG transmission and it can be very costly to repair/replace. I think if I were going to keep it I would purchase the extended warranty, providing it clearly afforded the protection I need.
Good luck whatever you decide.
I have an 04 Jetta with the same ignition coil issue. 2 things:
1) Thanks for the link to the vwcoils site. I hadn’t seen that. Good to know that’s out there.
2) I had the same problem with my ignition coils. I, too, was stranded. I replaced them myself for about $35/pop, IIRC. The Jetta runs like a top now (and no oil usage). I hope I can get reimbursed for doing my own warranty work.
Rick, good luck with that. We had an 04 Jetta with 2 faulty coils, replaced one ourselves before we learned of the recall, and had the second one done by the dealer. We brought the original bad coil we replaced with us to the dealer, but had no luck in getting any cash back…
My 99 Mazda Protege, with 220k+ miles has a little blowby, and even gives a blue puff out the tailpipe when I let it sit for more than 3 days, but even then It uses at worst 1/2 a quart every 5000 miles. I think I’d dump that VW.
It is common for VWs to use a lot of oil , because they are coming out of the factory with fully synthetic oil these days , so they never get run-in properly. The DSG transmission uses a dedicated ECU that can fail any time after 3 years and is very expensive to replace.
That ignition coil thing is a one-off problem with sub-standard components , like the Delphi injectors on the new 4 cylinder E-Class Merc.
Then again , you probably don’t get the 4-cylinder diesel E-Class in the USA.
SIDE NOTE: the warranty covers all ECUs, so that DSG processor will be covered. Whew!
Weasel words/terms that allow an extended warranty to be useless, such as the GMC-bought extended warranty wherein the same buzz term used to screw me was the same term used by GMC to avoid repairing standard factory warranty defects……
“Unable to replicate the problem.”
How convenient for GMC.
If I was unwilling to actually allow my mechanics to actually diagnose the problem it would be so easy to fend off the cost of repairs.
Expensive in the long-run though since I know when I am being screwed over and know enough about the law that a lawsuit is often not cost-effective and that in my particular circumstances I had no cost-effective resources to fight back against GMC or the several dealers that used such similar language while screwing me, leaving me with a truck with numerous defects and ongoing costs amounting to several thousand dollars out-of-pocket due to car rental costs, lost wages, etc.
To this day, whenever the opportunity arises, I inform consumers of my fate when buying a GMC product.
I have heard and read from others who experienced the same as I did and, interestingly, the warranty work screwing appears to have been most common in the “Heartland” where folks tend/trend to be more loyal to the “Big 3” than on either coast where the “imports” sell in larger percentages.
Another way automakers dodge an issue is by claiming it is “normal”.
The wife’s year old Mustang with 12,000 miles on the odometer was consuming a quart of oil every 500-miles. Ford’s callous agents and smug executives belittled and stonewalled our request for warranty repairs. We sued. The judge agreed with our position and ordered Ford to repair the car and pay our costs.
I have an 07 GTI w/ 54k miles on it (6MT, 4door). It hasn’t stranded me, but I have had an AC pump and O2 sensor go on me. I’m a do it yourselfer type, so the only real problem is having time to fix it. Lucky me, my wife is in love w/ the new 4Runner, so we’ll have a 3rd vehicle if/when the MINI or GTI give us trouble.
Why are you fixing a car yourself that is under warrant?
Well, if he had a standard 3yr/36k and it was afer 36k, he wouldn’t be under warranty.
I haven’t had to fix it out of warranty yet. Powertrain warranty is still rolling (for 5k more miles) but bumper to bumper is gone. I’m anticipating something requiring work… soonish.
Watch out for that DSG. I bought a new Jetta TDI with the DSG in 2006, and had the flywheel explode at about 8k miles. A couple of weeks later it was back on the road, and the invoice from VW was for $12,000 for the transmission alone, not including labor. Thankfully it was under warranty. Needless to say the VW was traded right before the warranty ran out, even though we loved the car.
NO WAY would I own a DSG out of warranty after signing off on the repair paperwork for mine. A VW with a manual, sure, but those DSGs are way too pricey to consider out of warranty.
VWs burn oil. Always have. 1 quart per 1000 miles is getting close to where they might do something for you, but you’ll probably have to fight a bit. They traditionally take a hard line on oil consumption complaints. That said, if you keep on top of it, past experience suggests that it really doesn’t seem to shorten the life of the engine or indicate any imminent failure.
In any case, the early gen DSG transmission will certainly expire long before the engine. I would enjoy it for a couple years, but ditch it at about 60k. That seems to be about the time limit on those things. And who knows, you may even wait yourself into a nice class action settlement.
I’m enjoying reading all of the comments. I have to agree with hakata: “VWs burn oil.” This past weekend Click and Clack had a caller with a Passat that used oil. They said that this has always been an issue with VWs. As I said in my earlier post, I knew what I was getting into when I bought a VW instead of an Acura. I consider myself lucky that my only real issue is the oil consumption.
As for the oil consumption test, I’ve tried it several times. But VW is very specific, it must be >1,000 miles per quart. I’m somewhere around 1,200 miles per quart.
I took great pains to break the car in properly. I check the oil regularly. I always have extra quarts of the proper fully synthetic oil in the car.
Still, I’m sticking with the car. Spending about $8 per month on oil is much fiscally responsible than getting $12K on a trade for my car and shelling out another $10K to $20K on top of that for something else. I’d much rather save that money for retirement. But, if there comes a time when it does start to need have a lot of problems, you can be sure I’ll be out shopping for something else. Unfortunately, the car I really want next is a Cayman S.
Finally, if I do buy the warranty, I’ll be sure to get it writing than any repairs related to oil consumption will be covered.
Just amazing what you VW lovers put up with. I would not own a new car that has stranded me on the road, and consumes a freaking gallon of oil every 5000 miles.
H&R/Bilstein with a 25mm RSB on O.Z. Ultras with Dunlop Direzzas = I do not know where the limit is because I’ve only been able to feel the edges of it. 45mpg, civilized interior, but totally freak nasty when you pour it on. Tell me where else I might find that for under $20,000.
I buy oil in four gallon cases. I would rather feed a jug to my car once in a while than drive a “nice” car.
Exactly. To me the ENTIRE reason for buying a new car is avoiding those exact types of issues.
I had a 2000 Toyota Celica that used a quart of oil every 600-800 miles depending on if it was city or highway. Toyota ‘rebuilt’ the motor after both an extended oil consumption test AND accusations from the dealer that I was draining oil out of the car. The reason I put quotations on rebuilt is because the car still used oil at a rate of 800-1000 miles again depending on usage. I complained again and was told that it was now within Toyota’s consumption specs of 750 miles per quart. I ditched the car and have never considered buying a Toyota again. I think Toyota’s current troubles are Karma in action.
If you burn a quart of oil every 1000 miles, and you get around 30 MPG, you are burning one quart of gasoline for about every thirty gallons.
That’s around 125:1 which wouldn’t be too far out of line for a modern oil injected two-stroke – and that has a Total Loss oil system with big fat ports right in the cylinder walls!