Sunil Shah writes:
I am wondering if you can give me some advice as I search for a used car. By way of background, I previously had an E46 330i w/sport package and manual transmission (purchased used at 35K miles and sold at 89K miles). It was a great car, but I sold a while back as I moved into a city and had a short walk to work. Now, I’m back in the suburbs and am looking for something that may or may not exist.
Here are my requirements:
– at least 4 doors, but would prefer a wagon (just had a baby and like the idea of the extra utility);
– manual transmission
– engaging to drive
– decent gas mileage (mid-to-high 20s on the highway)
– budget is $20K
– would like to keep this for 5 years (will be my daily driver)
I’ve been looking for an E46 or E39 wagon with stick, but have not come across any in the past two months (plenty with auto though). Then I’ve thought of Audis (A3, A4) but reading through various sites seems to indicate that these are maintenance nightmares as the miles pile on (moreso than BMWs). I’ve looked at the IS300 Sportcross (auto only), but the gas mileage on these is rather low (22-23, at best).
Lastly, I’ve read about (but have not driven) the Mazda6 wagon… though, I’m not sure I’m digging the interior all that much. Alternatively, if I go with a sedan, any thoughts regarding keeping and maintaining an E39 M5 or an E36 M3 sedan?
Steve Lang answers:
This is really the domain of three types of vehicles. A Subaru Impreza is a lot of fun to drive and would probably be the best overall fit. It fits all of your criteria and there are also plenty of handshakers out there that would meet your enthusiast bent. Parts should be very reasonable since Subaru tends to have longer model runs for their cars.
Two other ones I would consider are… sedans. The Acura TSX may not be a wagon. But it is a bit nicer as a daily driver and the quality of the interior is two clicks above the Impreza. Finally, you have one other near-new car that may be worth the consideration… a VW Jetta TDI. I’m sure that the Jetta is available with a stick as a wagon. But I simply haven’t seen one.
The same is true for the ‘Saabaru’ also known as the Saab 9-2X. That’s really just a Subaru with better seats. Overall if it were me, I would opt for a late 1990’s 5-Series BMW and use the remainder of your monies for repairs. Actually… that’s not it. I would really buy a well kept 1990’s Volvo turbo wagon and be done with it. Fun, luxury… and the absolute best seats in the business. Replace the shocks and put some nice wheels on it, and you’ll have the nicest ride in the car pool lane.
Sajeev Mehta answers:
I cringe when a budget this puny (sorry!) comes from someone with BMW aspirations. You’ll need a second mortgage to keep an M-series running, but even a mundane 3-series is a bit of a stretch. This is where a good Desi recommends a CamCord to a fellow brown person.
And just wait a second: did you mention fuel economy and M-series cars in the same letter?
Let’s pretend that didn’t happen, because we gotta narrow this project’s scope. Any car that fits your bill is more of a financial burden than mainstream sedans. So stick with the basics. Several Subarus come to mind, sit in a few and see if you can get over the quirky styling and boxer labor rates. Speaking of quirky, a new Scion xB with the dealer installed suspension goodies might work. Or a Mazda 3, but you’ll get your wrist slapped if you mention the Speed3 and fuel economy.
So I’m going with one of your original choices, the Mazda6 wagon. It fits the bill and pushes many of the Teutonic buttons so desirable in a Bimmer. But good luck finding one with a stick shift in the console, anywhere.
You say your budget is $20K . . . and I assume that’s your “acquisition budget.” But, the one you should be thinking about (if you want to keep this car for 5 years) is your “maintenance and repair” budget.
Anything for $20K from Audi or BMW (or Volvo) is going to require a substantial M&R budget if you want to keep it for 5 years. Probably VW, too, once you’re out of warranty.
So, think Asian. The TSX is a nice car .. nicer inside than either the Subaru or the Mazda, IMHO.
When you step out of the enthusiast car category, you will find manual trannies to be pretty rare, assuming they were even offered in the first place. So, good luck with that. Also, be advised that, when you buy a used manual tranny, you are buying however the previous owner(s) treated the clutch, which — unless it’s on the verge of failure — is impossible to discover without tearing it down. A clutch replacement is upwards of $1k on the cars you are talking about.
“M” cars at $20K — gas mileage, repairs? Fuhgeddaboutit!
Cobalt SS
MazdaSpeed 3 or 6
Yeah I second Steve and Sajeev on this one. Get something like the Subaru, Saabaru, or Mazda 6 wagon. The last two may be tough to locate but if your patient they’re out there. Try Auto Trader and if your willing to expand your search area to 500 miles and travel to get it, you can find just about anything I’ve realized.
OH! A dark horse canidate, HHR SS.
Since I am now Cobaltman, I freaking love the idea of an HHR SS. The HHR is based on the Cobalt’s platform….plus they look cool and he might even find one with a stick!
A few more choices to consider:
The new Acura TSX wagon. Just introduced for the US market at the New York auto show, but over your budget.
VW Passat wagon. They are available with stick shifts, but can be hard to find.
Volvo V70 … also available (hard to find) used with a stick. Not the best driver’s car in the world, but also not the worst.
If you back off from the wagon thing, then a clean used six speed Acura TSX is a terrific choice.
For used cars I often start my search with autotrader.com because they have an easy to configure search engine. Put in your price range, transmission choice, body style and how far you are willing to go for a look and it pops up a list of possibilities.
Also, don’t think that by spending 20k on a used 3-series you’re being more financially responsible than if you bought a brand new 20k Camry SE. You might want to buy the used 3 or the Acura because you will enjoy it more but don’t buy it because you think you’re saving money.
In general, I think sports cars are not a good buy used, at all unless you are looking at CPO. People beat the crap out of them, they mod the crap out of them and for that reason alone they are not good daily drivers.
If you can extend your budget to the mid 20’s, that is WRX territory….I’ve seen WRX’s OTD for $25’ish around here.
Another option is going 2 wheels. You can get a new sportbike that would function well as a daily driver for $8k. Pick up an econobox for the too-cold-or-rainy days and you are still probably around/under $20k.
I would consider a Volvo V50 wagon. I’m guessing you could get a 3 or 4 year old one with about 50k miles for way under $20k, perhaps $15k.
The Saabaru and TSX would be my choices too. And although I happen to think it’s too large, maybe a 2004-later TL?
I agree with most of what is written here. A Legacy or Mazda 6 would be a good choice. How about a Volvo V50? Lightly used with a turbo and sport package should be in your budget. Though manual might be more difficult. Definitely more depreciation than the TSX.
I see DC Driver just beat me to the V50 suggestion. There are the Civic Si and Sentra SE-R Spec V as well.
A fourth-generation (05-09) Legacy GT wagon fits your criteria precisely. Much less boy-racer-ish than a WRX, and also less likely to have been owned by a college-age dude who whipped the snot out of it.
+1 for the “grown up’s WRX” but apparently very hard to find with stick. OTOH they have a dedicated enthusiast community and should you want to go that route any good WRX tuner can massage it.
The grown up WRX only came with a manual/wagon in 05. Add in the STI shifter, and it’s pretty snick snick too. Not easy to find, but if you can, test it.
Just to respond to the points about “M” cars, I drive an E36 M3 sedan and love it. If your budget is $20k, you could probably get a nice specimen for $10k or less and then have $10k plus left over in reserve for maintenance and repairs, tires, etc., which would last a LONG time. Yes, I have to put some money into the car every once in a while, but I’ve had mine for 5+ years and haven’t spent anywhere near $10k on it. I’d guess it maybe averages $1,200 to $1,500 per year, including routine stuff you have on any car like oil changes, tires, etc.
As for mileage, I average 24+ mpg in mixed driving (mostly city/suburban, but not a lot of true stop-and-go). Highway mileage runs about 28-29 mpg but starts to drop if you average much over 75 mph.
I daily drive an E36 M3 coupe and would definitely echo the recommendation. However, getting 5 more years out of an E36 M3 sedan that will be at least 12 years old is a lot to ask for a daily driver on a $20K budget. If you work on the car yourself, it could be done. The powertrain will last forever if properly maintained, but many little things will always be wrong.
The responsible choice would be a Mazdaspeed 3, IMHO.
I drive an 03 Mazda Protege 5, which might just fit your needs. It’s a hatch, gets decent (but, frankly, not stellar) gas mileage, and is a hoot to drive. Get some decent tires rather than the factory rubber bands and the ride and handling both improve drastically. Personally I think it could use a power upgrade, but that’s beyond my fiscal capabilities right now. But for zipping around the back country, it’s a great little car that can also swallow a lot of crap when the need arises.
Mazda6 wagon vote here. I was lucky enough to find a stick shift a few years ago and love mine. There’s one for sale on Cleveland craigslist. I saw it a couple of weeks back. Not positive if it’s still there.
You want my car. :-) ’08 Saab 9-3 SportCombi 2.0T with 6spd manual. Roomy enough for two plus sprog-clutter, one of the best FWD chassis out there, officially rated at 29mpg highway but I usually see 32-33mpg on long trips. An ’07-’08 with the really good Saab CPO 100K warranty will run you under $20K.
It will take some searching to find a stick but they are out there. I bought mine new as a leftover last year and have been smileing ever since. Best deal going. You might even luck out and find a new leftover ’09 for not too much more than the $20K budget.
I rarely comment on TTAC, and maybe some will say this proves why, but I logged in just to point the OP to a used SportCombi. If you can accept that “massive torque steer” is “engaging” – and I had the points on my license from my early 20s to prove it – then a late-model 9-3 SC, or even a relatively recent 9-5 Aero, should work nicely. Extremely practical cars, with great mileage, inexpensive (for a European) maintenance, and absolutely atrocious resale value, meaning you should be able to find a lightly-used recent model for well under $20k.
So I happen to own (or have owned) 3 of the cars discussed here: a TSX (now gone), an e46 wagon (bought CPO) and an A4 Avant (bought new last year).
e46 wagon: if you only keep it for the duration of the CPO warranty, you’ll be OK. But if you keep cars longer (as I tend to do — “my” cars are 10 and 20 years old now, the wife’s are new), expect to spend a lot on M&R. I’d say that since the CPO warranty ran out I spend $3 grand a year on routine and not-so routine maintenance. Not counting the rebuild of the reverse drum in the auto tranny (good luck finding a manual — I couldn’t). You can’t skimp on this — for example, expect to spend a grand replacing the entire cooling system at around 80k.. if you don’t, you WILL have a cooling system failure and probably need a new engine. Expect to replace suspension parts frequently. If it wasn’t such a good drive I’d never bother. I think this is the last late model BMW, however, that I’ll ever “own” rather than lease.
A4 Avant: spectacular car. Manual not even manufactured now, though I think the previous model might have had one. I’d suspect that’s another “good luck finding one”. Way too soon for me to comment on long term maintenance costs, but I’m sure plenty of folks can comment on that engine/platform. Ours is a three year lease and at this point we’d like to buy it, but will need to figure that ongoing reliability part out.
TSX: if it had been a wagon, we might have kept it. Overall a great car, good at a lot of things, probably excellent at very few. Reliability and maintenance? It’s a Honda. Out of the three (and most of the others mentioned here), I’d be least worried about those expenses with a TSX. Why, oh why, did they wait so long to release the Estate version? :)
Early to mid 2000’s A4 Avant should do the trick…
Mazda 6 wagon sounds a good choice , but why would somebody sell a 330i simply because they didn’t need it to get to work ? You might sell a Volvo because you didn’t need it – or because you realised how un-cool it is.Avoid the Jetta as well – a Toyota would be better.
An E39 M5 for 20k is not an E39 you probably want to buy. Ones in good condition are still going for 30k. Not to mention they are notorious for eating clutches, though I suspect that has a good bit to do with driving style, as well as the supposedly overpowered clutch. MAFs can also be problematic, as well as VANOS issues, but to a lesser extent.
I fell in love with them recently when I was car shopping, but in the end, I went with a 335i.
Infiniti G35 sedan. 4dr, 6spd, 300HP, RWD, low cost mainteance & insurance. You get also get all the luxury and saftey nanies thrown in. Look for 2005-2006 models when they bumped up the power and cleaned up the interior. Can be had for <$20K if you look around a bit. I tote around 2 kids in mine!
+1 on the G35.
The pluses regarding total ownership cost outweigh the slight 3 series advantages in finesse and character.
Sounds like you’re in the market for a Subaru Legacy GT, my friend. It’s every bit as fast as the WRX (And shares many of the same upgrades), comes in a wagon form, it’s well built, reliable, gets good gas mileage and it stands out from the crowd without screaming “Vin Diesel”
I might be a bit biased, being as I own one, but I really think the 05-09 GT is the best midsize you can buy. It drives far better than the fat transverse Audis, and as well as a BMW without breaking every 2nd Thursday.
You can get a loaded, top of the line Spec B for 20k no problem, as well.
Wagons:
Subaru Impreza or Outback – no brainer given requirements
Mazda6 Wagon or even better five-door
Sedans:
Pontiac G8 V6 – “adequate” performance – GREAT handling, brakes, nice interior, under $20K all day long, 5/100 warranty, mid-20s MPG – great looking car
Have you considered a two-car solution? I saw a 2001 S2000 with 160k (but with all records, well maintained, and a recent compression test) for $8500. That and a 6 year old Legacy wagon and you’ll be set.
I second the 2-car solution if you can swing it. For me it’s a Mazda6 wagon (daily driver) and an E46 convertible (weekend driver). The Mazda is dead reliable and provides a Euro-like drive (impressive for FWD), and I’m probably spared a lot of BMW repair bills because that car is driven so few miles by comparison. Although if I had to make a choice, I’d sell both and get an E46 wagon in a heartbeat – even though the Mazda is excellent, the BMW is sublime and truly worth a couple bucks in repairs IMO.
Good luck with the search Sunil Shah – our car shopping preferences are identical.
New Hyundai Elantra Touring? Gets some pretty decent press, I’m going to go look at a manual right now, and it’s available for under $16K with 5 year bumper to bumper warranty, 10 year powertrain.
As I posted in a previous “New or Used?” article:
(Edited slightly)
1) When looking at sedans, I recommend making trunk space a major criterion. (Babies need a LOT of stuff.)
2) Go with something more reliable rather than less, or at least with a good warranty (new or CPO). You don’t want to deal with unexpected and/or pricey repairs while trying to manage a baby.
By the way, will this car be your only car? If not, what else do you have? If your other car/minivan/Canyonero will be the primary people-mover, then you obviously have a lot more flexibility.
Any used BMW out of warranty will cost 2-3k/year, more or less. You cannot escape it. Sorry. I love BMW’s and my mechanic loves that I love BMW’s.
I really like the idea of the Subaru XT wagon with a stick. Not mentioned, though, is the V70R. You can get them with a stick and they’ve been beaten with said stick due to depreciation. 300hp, AWD, Volvo Q-ship that goes like hell. Very nice interior as well!
Why the beating on the E46 chassis? These cars are not expensive in M/T form if properly cared for; granted I’m think of selling mine (01 330 Coupe), but only to look at an ’06 M3 or a P-car. At 100k miles I have a grand total of 1 sensor failure out of warranty, which was a 45 minute DIY (~$200 for the sensor from the stealership, ’cause I was in a rush – probably half that if you can wait for shipping). A few sets of tires and a bunch of oil changes are a given, and if you want to keep the ride right, you’ll need to replace suspension bushings every 60k-100k. Mechanically these cars can acheive extremely high mileage…. The key here, is to avoid the stealership at all costs once the warranty runs out and perform the regular maintenance; DIYs are plentiful if that turns your crank, or a decent indie mechanic can handle most jobs with ease.
I drive a 2003 BMW (E46) 325 wagon 5 speed, very rare and at 80k it has been bombproof and still drives like new. Keep your eyes peeled and you can find them for about 8-12k depending on miles etc. As for cost of ownership, this car is a gem, our Honda cost more to own and fix. Another option (bigger for baby managment) but rare find is a 5 series 1999-2xxx wagon with 5spd. As someone with a growing family we are quickly outgrowing the 3, but refuse to leave it because we love it.
I have to agree with Brendon. Average BMWs don’t cost 2-3K a year in maintenance unless you use a BMW dealer, which, frankly is just nuts. To keep 3-series in top shape and I mean everything working and working properly should cost below 1K a year. I had a 95 540i; it was a first gen nightmare of a car but it cost me “only” about 2K a year. Granted I had a good and inexpensive mechanic but still. The huge difference between BMWs and Audis/VWs is that their failures are predictable and you can plan ahead of time including researching and buying the required parts.
I agree with all of the comments about the E46. The only people that complain about cost of ownership are the people that blindly feed the dealer. Find a good mechanic on bimrs.org and you will be good to go. Automatics are not very problematic if you avoid the lifetime fluids kool aid. You liked your last BMW right? Find a good used example as they are plentiful and cheap right now. Just because you had a kid doesn’t mean you have to drive an appliance. Life is too short to drive a refrigerator. If you get xenon lights on the BMW, avoid the ZKW’s and look for Bosch. The ZKW units burn the bowls and light output suffers tremendously
to be clear as someone who noted his high maintenance costs for an e46…
I LOVE the car. It’s not my first BMW, and I knew in advance (and accept) the m&r costs. But maybe I’ve been unlucky, b/c I did all the “right things” (bimrs.org indy mechanic — heck he’s a tech advisor to the BMW CCA), not following lifetime fluids, etc. and I’m definitely running at the <$2k a year pace. Granted I've been in the over 70k miles club for a few years where some of the big expenses come in. And I don't mind it a bit, as even a lease of an equivalent car would be more like $6k/year.
My point is simply that you're probably going to spend more maintaining a used BMW (that you want to keep) than some of the other cars mentioned here.
Would a Mazda5 be too big?
How about a Volkswagen GTI MKV 5-door? Lots of fun, great gas mileage, easily available used in manual.
I have a personal bent for the Mazdaspeed6 (I own one), but gas mileage is terrible.
A friend of mine had an MS6 leased for two years. It was a great mix of sporty and practical. His MPG wasn’t so bad, he averaged in the 20s in mixed driving, 26-27 freeway only. I drove it a few times, and aside from the swift kick from the turbo at 3000rpm and what I thought was a lot of road noise, it’d make a great alternative to an Audi.
The Volvo V70R sounds like the perfect vehicle for you.
The various turbo Subarus people have brought up fit the bill as well.
V70R is near perfect, but everyone I know with an S60R/V70R said it was (always “was”) a reliability nightmare.
Are beemers really that bad? There’s a late 90s to early 2000s BMW in every other driveway here, and my neighborhood isn’t exactly upper class. If you have a good independent who specializes in BMWs you should be fine. An Infiniti G35 might be a good choice as well. Subaru owners actually say their cars can get expensive, so I don’t know if that’s going to be any safer. I would be more concerned on how much the seller kept up with maintenance than brand name per se.
Late model turbo Subaru Forester’s will be pretty easy on the wallet, haul plenty of stuff, can be had in a manual, and can be modified with STI parts.
Okay… original poster here! Thanks for the replies.
I have to confess that I wrote the email to Sajeev late one night in January after a month of trolling craigslist for my non-existent car. I was desperate for advice and love the brutal honesty on this site.
In the past three months since writing in, I haven’t looked at much (too busy with work). However, I have ruled out the E39 M5 (research indicates that repairs would be pricier than I care to spend) and the E39 wagon (only the 525 was available in stick and it’s a bit slow).
Since that time, I’ve raised my budget to ~$25K… I have the money for more, but would rather save some money (upfront) for other purposes (college fund?). Spending money on maintenance, I don’t have as much of a problem with, but I hate the time suck from random stuff going wrong– my BMW required more maintenance than my previous Japanese cars, but never left me stranded.
Oh, I got the wife a lightly used Lexus RX, which she loves. Still, I am focusing on a wagon for both the baby stuff and for when I go biking/surfing.
Also, I have a good independent mechanic that I trust that works on BMWs so I have no concerns about owning an E46 for the long-term (when it was all said and done, my ’01 330i cost me $300/month– depreciation + maintenance [including cooling system overhaul]). Mike Miller wrote an article in the latest Bimmer magazine indicating that the E90s are going to be costly to repair and BMW is limiting information it shares with techs, so repairs may require visits to the dealer. So, I’m avoiding those as well.
Interestingly, I have added the Subaru 2.5XT wagon to the list and now need to find one to test drive. There was one locally, that sold a day before I was scheduled to meet up with the owner!
I have also added (and test drove) a new, lightly-optioned Jetta Sportwagen TDI with 6MT. I was actually very impressed with this car — stellar gas mileage (40mpg+), good space inside (not to mention the high quality interior), new car warranty and it rode well over bumps and turns (well, a bit soft in the turns but I think that could be worked on). Admittedly, the exterior looks a bit slab-sided and dull.
Since I was at the VW dealership, I took a 4 door GTI out as well… more impressive, given the tighter suspension and more responsive engine. But, the Sportwagen was only a slightly more expensive (tax credit available too) and offered more room and better gas mileage.
Now, there is definitely the reliability issue with VWs but I have, anecdotally, heard people having fewer problems with the TDIs.
I will add the Volvo V50 to the list and give those a test drive as well. I know nothing about Volvos.
I will add the TSX (should be easy to find one for a test drive), and I’m going to look at an E46 ZHP this weekend.
Oh, in case anyone is wondering, I’m getting around in a family leftover– ’94 Corolla pushing 170K miles (all I do is change the oil… it won’t die, but it’s boring me to death).
The 2.5XT is an Outback, which is fast, but more than a little floaty when it comes to handling, and most of them are automatics. I would look for a Legacy GT wagon first, but if one can’t be found, the Outback is ok, although at that point I’d seriously consider the Forester XT, as well.
I’ve been look at VW diesels as well. I would not believe the past stellar reliability of diesels is going to be reflected in the new, clean burn diesel era. The complexity of these diesels is magnitudes greater than the pre-2006 ones. Reading Euro sites and magazines, there have been costly repairs on the new generation of diesels over there, leaving people unhappy. Couple that with the likely low quality of some of our diesel fuel, and there may well be problems with diesels over here.
If I get a VW I’m staying away from the DSG (not a problem for you)- they haven’t gotten it sorted out and there’s all kinds of anecdotal evidence on the internets that the recall last year hasn’t settled things.
I was looking at a similar set of criteria a few months ago, and went with a used Outback XT. The turbo is sweet, it’s got wagon-practicality, good crash test scores (which you think about when you have a new baby), and they should be reasonably reliable. A surprise for me was that my insurance premiums are no higher than they were for my 10-year old, non-turbo wagon. The Subaru manual transmission doesn’t have the snickety-snick feel of a nice Honda, though.
That’s because Subaru’s 5 speed was built in caves by people who had yet to discover fire. The 6 speed is the only modern manual Subaru offers, and you can only get that on the STI or Legacy Spec B.
I was looking for similar things when I was looking for my first new car, and I ended up with a Honda Civic Si sedan. I was looking for something I could pay off quickly and keep for 10 years, and two years later, I’m still very happy with it. It’s got a slick 6-speed, it’s quick, it’s comfortable, friends never complain about the back seat, and while not a luxury car, it’s got a great stereo and a sunroof standard. I drive mostly highway, and I usually get between 26 and 29 MPG depending on how often I go into VTEC mode. I paid $20,100 for mine back in ’08, so it should fit in your budget.
Its not perfect. It’s got some minor interior rattles, the dash layout is polarizing, and other cars probably offer more performance for the same money, but overall the car is fun to drive and easy to own.
Subarus would fit your bill pretty well. The timing belt service can be a bit of a pain though. Their MTs sometimes feel vague and squishy, but $70 of aftermarket bushings will fix that. I did a lot of forum-reading on the E36 M3/4/5 (four door, five speed…nearly bought one with only 72k miles on it) and found out the’re generally better taken care of than equivalent Non-Ms, and are solid on the reliability/maintenance front once the major issues (water pump impeller) and the usual E36 maintenance is addressed. If it has aftermarket suspension, peek under the rear to make sure the swaybar hasn’t popped off it’s mounts, or for cracks.
E39s have a lot of small issues in general, regardless of whether you have a 528i or M5. Dead pixels in the readout, worn suspension, interior HVAC sensors gone bad, cooling system issues, etc. It wouldn’t stop the car from running, but it could be annoying or expensive.
What are older CTSVs going for nowadays? I’m sure you could get decent MPG out of one if you drove it gently and used skip-shift.
I just purchased a used one year old Jetta Wagon (non-TDI) with a stick having test drove a new Jetta Wagon TDI with a stick and I would highly recommend both. When looking for the used one I did come across a TDI version with a stick for $19k ($28k new as equipped) so it falls within your budget. The gas version can be significantly cheaper to purchase used since they start at $20k new.