TTAC Commentator Windswords writes:
My co-worker told me the other day that her daughters brand new 2009 Honda CRV (11,000 miles) was making a noise. Her daughter described it as a “chirping” sound. Thinking it had something to do with the belts I told her to see the dealer about it. She later told me that the dealer found the car was low on oil. As a matter of fact the car was 2.5 qts low. The car has the 1.6L 4-pot motor which takes (according to her) 5 qts. The car had just had the oil changed at the same dealership. They gave it another (complimentary) oil change and made sure it was filled this time. The noise is gone. The engine light did not come on during this episode.
What concerns me is that the engine ran for a period of time with only half the oil capacity. Her daughter uses it to go to school, driving 30 miles round trip of mixed driving occasionally going 40-50 mph. By my estimation she put about 150 miles on the car in this condition. Two questions; 1) Did any long term damage occur and 2) what should my co-worker do about it? I suggested that she get the dealer to pay for an extended warranty to cover the engine after the manufacturer’s warranty ends and get rid of the vehicle after either warranty expires. What do you and the Best and Brightest think?
Sajeev Answers:
What should they do? They should get a gun and several lawyers on retainer. (Lose the gun and stick with the lawyers if you don’t live in Texas, pardner.) But on a more serious note: I’m quite pissed at this series of events. And so should your co-worker and her daughter.
Why is my answer to the second question so, uh, impassioned? Because I cannot give you fair answer on question numero uno. So I assume the worst. Perhaps that motor will develop valve lifter or timing chain rattle after crossing the next 80,000 miles or so? Or maybe nothing will happen.
But new cars aren’t cheap, and people aren’t supposed to play games with a motor’s lifespan. And what might be minor engine wear right now can be far, far worse 5+ years later. So an extended warranty is pointless if the car is a long-term family member. The only salvation is a new motor: I’d fight for a new HoMoCo longblock and nothing less. Tell the dealer what you want, then politely tell them you’re filing for arbitration at the courthouse immediately after their initial “go pound sand” remarks.
Moral of the story? Actions have consequences, but you may not realize the extent of damage until it’s far too late to do anything about it.
(Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com)
I’m surprised, very surprised, that there was not either an oil level warning or an oil pressure warning for this type of situation. On a 2009 vehicle? Pathetic.
If it’s like many modern cars, it simply has an oil pressure switch which turns the light off when 4-6 PSI of pressure is achieved. No real need for a true oil pressure sender when there isn’t a proper gauge. Even then, some cars with a oil pressure gauge still have a simple switch and the computer simply puts the gauge somewhere in the middle to keep the customer happy and unconcerned. Blame overly anal people nitpicking gauge fluctuations for these “idiot lights with a needle”.
It’s also probably rare for relatively inexpensive mass-market cars to have an oil level sensor as those too add more cost to the product.
Yeah for a 5qt capacity unit loosing half it’s oil, shouldn’t there be a warning light of some kind?
I have a 1998 Audi that warns me that I’m down one quart [out of 8!].
Honda can’t manage the same technology 11 years later? Is it possible she had a light but ignored it? If Honda can prove that, her claims won’t go far.
Maybe the dealer did screw up. Maybe the young driver (assumed by “school” missed the idiot light. No way to tell or prove.
Since the odds of a new engine (IMO) are slim to none without bulletproof evidence of dealer screw-up, best bet is to drive it until a potential problem appears, then trade it in to same dealer.
I bet daughter will be tired of the car a l-o-n-g before problems show.
This is why I always check my oil level after every oil change (and tire pressures after every rotation).
Twotone
I learned the hard way to check lug nuts too. Drove about 100 yards away from the service bay before realizing the horrible wobble was a set of hand tightened lugs on my left front. Luckily no damage and the tech was able to come out to the street with a hand jack and my tire iron to tighten things up.
Trust but verify!
Dealers always brag about being “factory trained”, but in reality they are idiots.
What should they do? They should get a gun and several lawyers on retainer.
+1
There are no if’s, and’s or but’s here: this is where you get small-claims involved. They screwed up an oil change, there may be damage to the motor, and you have just had your car devalued. There is all sorts of precedent for this.
I don’t think you’d be able to sue for a new vehicle or engine, but you should be able to get the dealer to spring for an extended (lifetime?) powertrain warranty (with specific instructions written in and agreed-to by Honda and the dealer), and/or a carte-blanche agreement to pay for any engine-related failure in the future and/or a cash award or escrow that you can bank against such a failure.
Give them the options, let them pick, but let them know that you expect something and that it would be easier for all involved to agree without having to go to court. Before you sign, get whatever they give you reviewed by a lawyer for obvious loopholes.
As long as the lawyer’s review doesn’t cost more than the benefit they give you.
I agree on the small claims. Running a motor “low” (versus out of) oil is a funny thing. It may run fine now, but the even may have simulated 50k miles or more of wear on the internals. I say bring the car back and demand something appropriate or take it to small claims. Don’t let it slide!
I would go straight to the service manager with a verbal and written request of a new engine OR warranted coverage for all things oil related for 250,000 miles. I say “oil related” because oil on modern day cars does so much more than lubricate the engine. It’s used for piston cooling, valve timing solenoids, among other items besides lube.
One of the most underrated places for going is the OWNER of the dealership or the manufacturer’s 1-800 number.
http://automobiles.honda.com/information/customer-relations.aspx
In this day of Toyota having the shine worn off of it’s golden reputation, Honda will make this right, I can assure you.
BTW, folks, this is yet another glarring reason why I do my OWN basic maint.
I agree with the idea of complaining to American Honda. They seem to be responsive when their reputation for quality is on the line. The tough part is making sure to have documentation of the problem of low oil and a chirping sound.
If it were my car, I’d want a long extended warranty instead of an engine swap. If the dealer can’t get fluid levels right, what are the odds that dealer screws up something else in this major repair? I’d worry that the dealership would take multiple tries and lots of time to replace the engine.
And most car companies would rake us over the coals were we to do our own oil changes and forget half the oil and then complain when the engine locked up.
A 1.6L in a CR-V? In the USA? I thought they were all 2.4L engines? My ’99 has a 2.0L (only engine the 1st Gen offered).
My CR-V holds four quarts total including the filter.
What Sajeev said, also pursue a Lemon law if your state has one
CRV should have a 2.4L I4. Not sure of the oil capacity, I would guess between 4 & 5 qts.
As others have mentioned, always, ALWAYS, check the work done by a mechanic. If you don’t know how … LEARN !!!
On the rare occasion I let someone else change my oil I check
oil level before leaving thier lot. I also re-torque lugs as soon as I get home.
Unfortunatly I’ve had to re-do work done wrong by careless mechanics so often that I never take a car to a shop for anything anymore if there is any way in the world I can do it myself. (except exhaust work … I hate that).
The straw for me was taking a 93 Civic in for a new timeing belt. After 4 tries the mechanic could not get the car running close to properly. It would idle, but you could not get over 30mph.
I also had one mechanic chane the oil … They put 6 qts into the engine !! (which was a 3qt 1.5L).
I would not even trust a Honda dealer to correctly install a new engine for this CRV.
If it were me, I’d get a lawyer and demand they take the car in trade for another vehicle of the same age & mileage, or adjust price for any difference. Let the dealership figure out what to do with the car afterward.
I feel the same way about garages especially the ones that don’t let customers into the shop! This past February I took my ’05 Civic into the Honda dealer for an oil change to take advantage of a coupon and because I had been ill for several weeks. Next morning when I pulled out of the garage there was a puddle of oil on the floor and after looking under the car I found the oil filter was loose. In my 30+ years of do-it-yourself oil changes I have never had a loose or leaking oil filter. I also discovered that 2 of the air filter box screws were gone and the oil level was down below the “add” mark. Next time I’ll wait and do it myself.
I agree with the low quality of mechanics in my experience as well. The tire stores that tighten my lug nuts to 150+ ft-lbs when the book calls for 90 ft-lbs. The mechanics that leave off alternator bracket bolts. The mechanics hired to replace parts that only do half the job. They replaced the part but none of the leaking seals requested to be replaced. Charged me $150 for a special order bearing that I sourced in TEN minutes for $20 from a bearing supply house (a/c compressor clutch bearing).
No I’ve had enough fun helping friends and family with their mechanics that I’ll ALWAYS do my own work as long as I am fit and able.
There is no substitute for checking your own fluids regularly, nor any excuse not to do so. New car, dashboard warning system, “trusted mechanic”, none of that cuts any ice when you realize one day you’ve been driving around with half your oil missing.
Hopefully the young lady has just learned this very expensive lesson.
More than low oil, I’d be worried about why a CR-V has a 1.6L engine!
As a lawyer, I have to differ from Sajeev to this extent: in most states, this won’t be a matter to take to arbitration. Fights against the manufacturer in a lemon law case are generally arbitrated; but issues regarding harm caused by dealer negligence need to be filed as a common law negligence case in court. You have to prove that the dealer was negligent, and the dealer’s negligence caused the harm. Implicit in this is that you have to prove the extent of the harm caused by the dealer.
As a practical matter, you will need to hire an expert, and have an expert examine the vehicle and write a report as to what is wrong with it, and what it will take to cure the problem. You should also make sure that this expert will be available to testify in court if necessary. Note that in common law negligence cases, in most states, if you win the case you will not receive your attorney fee in addition to your proven out-of-pocket damages. You may receive your expert-witness fee. Typically, in an out of court settlement with the dealer, you will not receive money for your expert witness fee either.
It might be hard to find an expert witness. You might pay the expert witness only to get an equivocal report. Because there is not an attorney fee remedy, you can expect that any attorney you hire is going to charge a retainer and probably an hourly fee, although at least part of that fee might be contingent. (One place to inquire about experts and other advice would be the model-specific “Townhall” message boards at Edmunds.com.)
The cheapest settlement for all concerned would be to swap out her 11,000 mile CRV with a like model that has a certified used warranty. That way you end up with a well-warranted car, that is less likely to have a ticking-time-bomb engine. Some other PDB gets the ticking time bomb. The sales tax consequences of the swap should be minimal.
If the dealer doesn’t offer the swap, I think the place to start would be public complaints, through forums such as the BBB, Angie’s List, and the various internet complaint sites such as ripoffreport,com, yelp.com, complaintstation.com, consumeraffairs.org, etc. The squeaky wheel can get the grease.
If the dealer does take it in trade, will they need to disclose the lack of oil caused by that dealer? I assume the answer is no, but it would be interesting to know…
Separate from the legal issues, if the low oil pressure light did not come on, I seriously doubt the motor was compromised given the gentle driving involved. As long as pressure was maintained, which 2.5 quarts should be sufficient to do so (or even less), it will likely be all right. But I understand the anxiety about it.
Based on my experiences, I agree with you. The engine is probably fine, and not worth jousting with windmills over. My Hondas all have dipsticks.
Normally, I would agree with you except for the fact she specifically mentioned a noise which suggests there was a friction/wear issue.
Plus, isn’t the standard Honda oil these days a 5W-20 grade? Seems awfully thin stuff to be running 2+ quarts low.
They should be justifiably upset but I don’t think it is going to be an easy win to get a new engine or car. They could be on the path to a long expensive legal battle that would at best, be a moral victory (assuming they eventually win.)
First question I’d want answered is what documentation do they have that proves the dealer under filled it. Don’t expect the dealer to make the same mistake of admission in court that they might have made when she picked the car up. You might want to see if you can get the error documented, get them to put it in writing if they already haven’t.
Once she left the dealer, she does leave open, for doubt what might have happened with the car in her ownership. This might seem absurd but it is what the defense will use to put doubt in the mind of court.
I would try to be nice first and ask for some type of extended warranty that would cover any engine wear as long as you plan to keep the car.
In the end, they might just have to chalk it up to experience. As others have noted. It is always a good idea to check a dealers work, fluid levels, bolts tightened, fill cap on…etc.
Fat chance you’ll get a new car or new engine. Regarding the legal route, see Conslaw’s post above. I highly doubt that she can prove any damges at this time. We are talking about damages that might surface years down the road, after the car is out of warrantee. I say take a hard stance in an effort to negotiate an extended warrantee.
An acquaintance of my family had an engine go once on a leased VW Jetta, because the dealership did an oil “change”.
They just neglected to put any new oil in.
.
Consider all the potential total costs of each path. Some depressing conclusions might turn out to be the cheapest.
You might just roast them on all possible internet forums & then walk in & show the owner the letters you’re about to send to the City/County/State Attorneys General + Prosecutors, FTC, Honda NA, and your local TV news station’s “Merchants screwing consumers” segment.
If you live near a big city, the last option could turn out to be quite a powerful weapon.
+Also: You might try Consumerist.com . They periodically have case-studies and advice on these things.
The correspondent’s unhappy experience is the very best argument for doing minimal car maintenance. Excessive servicing is needlessly costly and offers increased opportunity for catastrophic error.
Some owners assume their car requires the severe-use maintenance schedule, which typically involves more frequent fluid and filter changes than the normal-use schedule. It is really intended for vehicles that often tow or are regularly driven in demanding conditions, such as stop and go traffic or dusty areas. Most cars are well looked after with the normal schedule. The owner’s manual contains definitions and details. Always do enough to satisfy the warranty requirements.
After my car is serviced I stop on the nearest clean patch of asphalt and watch for fresh fluid deposits as I slowly back away. I check the oil and other fluid levels as soon as I get home. Alternately, I buy gas at a full service station and have the attendant check. In my view this simple precaution beats the hell out of trying to obtain compensation from a service agency for damage to an oil-starved engine.
It paid off once for me. The lube monkey did not replace the dipstick. Oil forced out of the dipstick tube bathed the engine compartment and was dripping onto the ground. The oil pressure light did not illuminate. Not knowing how much oil was left in the sump, I demanded the dealership tow the car in, notwithstanding their assurances it would be OK to drive. How could they possibly know that? I stood there while they drained the remaining oil into liter bottles. There was 3.5 liters left out of 4.5 so I figured the engine was OK. It was quite a mess. They changed the oil again, shampooed the engine, supplied a new dipstick and gave me several free oil change coupons. I didn’t go back.
The alternative is to navigate through court filings and months of cryptic proceedings before imperious government appointees, often failed politicians and party loyalists with no legal background, and judge-wannabe civil servants while cursing your bad luck and beating yourself up for not being more thorough in the first place. Success is not assured.
How refreshing to read replies unlike the typical tripe babbled by the typical brain-dead USA citizen whose typical knee-jerk uneducated implanted-via-indoctrination rhetoric typically consists of “sue ’em” with the expectation that the harmed party (well, the assumed harmed party) will attain their desires with minimal fuss and muss while incurring no expense and living happily ever after.
Some locales are decidedly more “consumer friendly” than others while ano9ther jurisdiction can be so business friendly that consumers are regularly spat upon with little to no recourse via the legal system.
It ain’t no justice system, amigos, it is a legal system designed from the get-go to maximize the wealth of those earning their living from the legal system designed, created, operated and maintained by those who basically own the system.
Sad but true yet thanks to the perpetual indoctrination of the masses here and everywhere in general, the populace remains convinced that the USA’s adversarial system is the only method to be used and one still regularly hears “The USA has the fairest bestest justice system in the world and it has to be true ’cause that’s what I heard and I just know it has to be that way ’cause we’re number one and if you don’t agree you just gotta’ be a damn Commie or terrorist or a pinko or shucks tarnation just sue the beestards and all will be okay.
When I confronted the Mighty GMC (peace be upon it) in a state extremely consumer unfriendly I knew I was in the right yet also knew the legal system was not a path to use to obtain satisfaction… that that route would only be handing wealth to a shyster and that even if I were to “win” the expense would far exceed the damages I had experienced… the allowed damages even though I lost thousands of dollars in “unallowable” damages via lost wages and other expenses.
Of course, being a part of the “right” group or cohort or socio-economic group or having the “proper” name (depending upon your area” and many other variables can have a great effect on a judicial outcome.
What is the adage about justice occurring in the halls thereof?
I agree with psarhjinian.
Problems from this won’t arise until waaay down the road when it’s too late to do anything about it. And if anything, any full blooded mechanic knows an early screw with a typical engine maintenance item (like 1/4 filling the oil) will no doubt cause long term damage. Something has to come out of it for the owner because the dealership screwed up.
Almost makes you want to drain all of the oil out of the engine, run it until it sounds like a sack of sea shells, then refill it and have it towed back to the dealer under warranty.
Of course, that would be dishonest…
I thought we all hated Cash For Clunkers?
Personally, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Damage may or may not have occurred, there’s no way to tell. I really don’t think you’d win a lawsuit from it and trying to get a new engine from the dealer will not happen. It’s a good lesson to learn. Never trust anyone to change your oil correctly or put on a tire. I have never once had a tire place put on a tire correctly. Always check the oil level when you get home and retorque those lug nuts.
Also, you can increase your chances of having your oil filter put on incorrectly by driving a distance to the oil change place. Try putting a filter on a hot engine and you will see what I mean. Some cars have the filters in better spots than others. Many will burn your arm trying to put it on. I suggest doing your oil changes yourself, but that’s me. At least check the dipstick and the ground for spots after an oil change.
Personally, I WOULD worry. I’ve owned two Hondas and a Nissan, and all three have been overfilled by oil change shops, because the volume is an odd number converted from liters, not exact quarts. As per rtt108, it can’t be a 1.6, it’s the 2.4 engine in the CR-V, and the capacity with a new filter is 4.4 quarts, not five.
I think Willman’s anecdote about a dealer forgetting to add oil is what happened. Somebody siphoned out 2.5 quarts of the old oil, replaced the filter and forget to add oil. They probably got it right the second time. The bad siphoning job saved the engine from seizing up, but running 150 miles, however gently, on less than two quarts of old oil probably shortened that engine’s life dramatically.
Whether the oil light came on is hard to tell. None of my sisters watched anything but the speedometer and the gas gauge, and sometimes not even that.
And sucking oil out of an engine is precisely why I wouldn’t let a lube mechanic change my oil. I want any debris and sludge out of the oil pan, not just sitting in a corner of the oil pan missed by the vacuum pump. I want somebody (me) to notice chunks or a silvery sheen to be noticed when the oil is drained so any problems that might need to be addressed is in a timely manner.
At least while your under warranty I think it makes sense to let the dealer do the oil changes. When I can get an oil change and tire rotation done on my wifes Chevy for $3o why bother doing it myself.
I’m not sure if a CRV has oil an pressure gage or not but as long as it ran the same oil pressure it always does it didn’t hurt that motor one bit.
And running an engine low on oil whose cylinder walls are lubed by splash would not be a bad thing? The bearings would not mind low oil levels in the sump as long as the pressure was maintained but the cylinders would mind.
If it were me, and the dealer was trying to be good sports, I would document with them the incident, and move on. If/when an oil-related issue rears its head, you can deal with it then. But asking for a new engine or car because some damage might have occurred is not gonna happen, at least at the dealers I’ve dealt with.
I know lots of folks have stories about how service stations have screwed up oil changes, but my guess is these guys make fewer mistakes than those of us who change our own oil. I change my oil in the warm months, but in January, am happy to let the guys at the local Valvoline do the work.
They have such a regimented, disciplined process — much better than my own — if I’m being honest.
On a preventative/mechanical note, if it won’t void the warranty, you could try throwing a can of liqui-moly MOS2 in the engine oil.
MOS2 particles I think bind particularly well to hot bits, so that bearing/journal in the head that was chirping might potentially be helped.
They sell it at many places, here’s 1 example: http://matrixsyntheticoils.com/store/product152.html .
-Also, don’t overfill the oil. You may have to drain the .4 qts that the moly occupies if your oil is already topped up.