If German cars had a stellar reputation for reliability, Lexus would not be where it is today. TrueDelta’s latest Car Reliability Survey results, based on owner experiences through the end of March 2010, provide some evidence that a corner has been turned, but other evidence that work remains to be done.
Two years ago the current Mercedes C-Class had a relatively trouble-free launch, and in the latest results the 2008 is better than average. Nearly three-quarters of owners haven’t had a single repair in the past year.
The redesigned-for-2010 Mercedes E-Class appears poised to go down the same path. TrueDelta’s first reliability stat for the car, 56 repair trips per 100 cars per year, is very close to the average for all 2010 cars. For an all-new car with above-average complexity this is quite good. It’s also far better than the record compiled by the make’s SUVs.
Initial stats for the new MkVI Volkswagen Golf, GTI, and Jetta SportWagen are mixed. Gas-powered 2010s barely managed an “about average” score (74, lower is better) while the diesel-powered TDIs, plagued by faulty O2 sensors, scored considerably worse than the average (143). Both scores are considerably worse than those for the 2008 and 2009 model year cars.
TrueDelta also has its first stats for the 2010 Ford Taurus. With a reported repair frequency of 73 repair trips per 100 cars per year, the redesigned sedan has, like the gas MkVI VWs, barely managed an “about average” score. The related Ford Flex and Lincoln MKS had similar scores a year ago, and have since improved. The second model year of the Flex scores a “better than average” 25.
In February TrueDelta reported a “worse than average” initial reliability statistic for the new 2010 Chevrolet Equinox and GMC Terrain. Though only three months have passed, this score has improved dramatically from 94 to an “about average” 48. This suggests that GM quickly identified early glitches and rapidly implemented fixes for them.
Will the new VWs improve like the Equinox and Terrain have? With prompt quarterly updates, TrueDelta’s Car Reliability Survey will continue to track these and hundreds of other cars well ahead of other sources. Full results: Car Reliability Survey results
Participants in the survey receive full access to the results for free. The more car owners participate, the better the information TrueDelta can provide.
Is it true what I have heard quoted “the least reliable cars of today are as or more reliable than the most reliable cars of 15 years ago”? I think a bigger issue is that dealers often suck at fixing issues that do crop up, especially with electronics.
My ’08 Saab 9-3SC has been essentially flawless over 1.5yrs and 19K miles. One dodgy sunroof switch fixed at the first service. I’m a TD participant with the car.
Only if you don’t count the BMW 335 which seems to have the reliability of a 70s Italian exotic.
I don’t know about least > most, but the difference compared to 20+ years ago is large.
Fuel pumps in the _35 BMWs are certainly prone to failure. It looks like once you get a good one, though, you’re set. With the 2007s the repair frequency of the 335 is virtually identical to that of the 328. I’ve reported on this before, so I didn’t include it in this piece.
One note on the article: it refers to the E-Class sedan, not the coupe pictured. But since both the C-Class on which the coupe is based and the E-Class sedan are doing fairly well, no reason to think otherwise with the E Coupe.
Do you track repair rates vs. age or mileage? If so, how do the statistics look one, two or three years out (or 10k, 20k, 30k miles)?
Thanks!
Twotone
Only age so far. And I haven’t yet tried to analyze how the same cars do over time. I’d like to do both, but need larger sample sizes (mileage varies more than age, and as variance goes up so does the needed sample size).
Also only so many hours in the day. In the future we’ll have additional stats.
…the diesel-powered TDIs, plagued by faulty O2 sensors, scored considerably worse than the average
But that’s not possible! Nothing ever goes wrong with diesel-powered cars! They’re simple, yet incredibly robust!
(yes, I’m being a twerp)
(being equally twerpy)
Diesel engine is fine, it’s the sensor that is the problem
But seriously was the O2 a subject of a recall or did it actually fail. Recalls may be annoying but it doesn’t mean that a particular vehicle has a problem. I am surprised that Karesh didn’t mention the effect of the DSG recall in the TDIs reliability numbers
My point was that people always hold up diesel as some kind of mechanical Adonis that never, ever goes awry simply because it has a stouter block.
When was the last time you had a block crack on a modern car?
I actually like diesel powerplants, but diesel fans need to understand that the costs of keeping the car does not begin and end with the bottom half of the engine.
Recalls are not included in this or any other reliability survey I’m aware of. A recall should actually improve a car’s score, because it will pre-emptively replace a part prone to failure. Audi is currently doing this with ignition coils in a large number of older cars.
Michael:
Thanks for the info.
“When was the last time you had a block crack on a modern car?”
Just Google “Honda Civic cracked blocks”. There’s a real problem out there with 2006 and newer Civic engines. Someone didn’t do their structural engineering properly.
The “it runs forever” reputation of diesel engines is based, I think, on two things: inter-city trucks, powered by diesels and assumed to go hundreds of thousands of miles with nary a repair and the Mercedes automotive diesels of the 1980s — the 2.4 liter 4-cylinder and the 3 liter 5-cylinder (in normally aspirated and turbocharged versions) which, when properly oiled, run a very, very long time.
I know, my future son-in-law who lives in Los Angeles drives a 240D with a 4-speed manual and loves it, even though it maxes out at 65 mph.
Needless to say, those engines are decades behind the current generation of diesels, which perform better (in terms of HP/liter and smoking) but are much more complex.
And, of course, there are the examples of the bad diesels of the 1980s that people also remember: the “dieselized” gasoline engines used in the VW Rabbit diesel, the Audi 5000 diesel, the Volvo diesel (built by VW, IIRC) and, the GM diesel used by Oldsmobile.
@psarhjinian
I’ve owned or regularly driven 7 vehicles bought new or near new since 1979, all of them (including the current ones) driven at least 90,000 miles and none sold before 100K. One Chevy, one Ford, three Toyotas, a Volvo and a Subaru.
None has had (or ever needed) any engine work other than scheduled timing belt replacements. With semi-reasonable maintenance, gasoline engines are a strong point of modern cars.
Modern diesels have at least as complicated a fuel injection system as modern gasoline engine cars. However, they still have no ignition system to go wrong, though of course you can have issues with the glow plugs on occasion. Durability is a wash, I expect ANY decent quality modern engine to far outlast the body it is bolted to and the electronics bolted on it, provided it is maintained properly. Note that I say “properly” which is no longer the same as the manufacturers recommended schedule in many cases. As Steve Miller of Roundel always says, “funny how BMWs suddenly didn’t need maintenance once BMW started paying for it”.
I like modern diesels for the simple reason that they give adequate performance with exceptional fuel economy. Or in the case of a BMW 335d, exceptional performance with adequate fuel economy. Torque rules.
@PatrickJ – I consider 150K miles nicely broken in. I’ve had several Volvos with over 300K miles, a 250K mile Saab, and currently have a 200K Saab, and have had numerous other European cars with >150K miles. Non were particularly troublesome once brought up to my standards of maintenance. I fully expect any car I buy new to last as long as I care to bother to keep it, with minimal fuss.
Modern diesels are very complicated. Not only are the injector systems more complex than petrol engines , but even the flywheels are complicated.”Dual mass” flywheels are commonly failing on diesel cars used for lots of city driving. Turbochargers are lasting only 50k miles on many BMW and Renault diesels.European diesel cars are now being fitted with particulate filters to clean-up the exhaust and these are causing more problems.
psarhjinian
+1
That was aimed at me.
I will take my punishment like a man…with scotch.
I wonder, however, if the European diesels have the same problems inferred to here.
Is this a result of trying to build diesels for the American restrictions?
@krhodes1
I’ll do most anything to a house, but don’t enjoy turning wrenches on cars and am not all that good at it.
As a long-distance driver having to pay market rates for labor in a high-cost urban area, I’m ready to move on at 125K. With the need to start keeping spare cars beyond that point, I’m not convinced that I’m spending significant extra money by doing that.
OK, diesel knockers, let’s establish a few things.
1. Diesel injection systems are more complex than MOST gas engines; although my 2009 TDI has an extremely high operating pressure and attendant complexities related thereto, there are a number of direct injection gas engines that have a very similar fuel injection system, and very high pressures as well.
1b. Plenty of gas engines also have dual-mass flywheels and every other piece of technojunk fitted to modern diesels, except DPFs.
1c. There have NOT been a lot of problems in Europe, let alone here, with DPFs. Lots of hyperbole by the anti-diesel crowd, no supporting statistics.
2. I don’t think anyone I know has ever suggested that diesels are by default longer-lived or more durable than any other engine. “Everyone always” holds up diesels as a mechanical Adonis, Psar? I think not. What, did your mother run off with a diesel when you were kid?
3. Interesting to see that O2 sensors have been a common issue. I hang out at tdiclub.com, and have only seen a few mentions of that particular issue. Of course that site is not peopled by the general population of TDI owners, so that shows you how “real world” enthusiast sites are. The big scary issue there is the possibility of high pressure fuel pump failures, which VW rectifies by replacing the ENTIRE fuel system for, oh, about ten grand. Initially VW was blaming these incidents on contaminated fuel, but recently it seems they’re covering them under warranty more frequently. Not a large sample there, but it is indeed a frightening specter.
To summarize, I don’t hear diesel “fan-boys” blindly claiming that modern diesels have any default advantages over gasoline engines, other than fuel efficiency (which is tempered by the fact that a gallon of diesel requires more oil than a gallon of gas). What I do hear in Psar’s comment is a heaping helping of something like the “I hate Prius drivers” animosity we so often see here in comments.
For my part, I went for this TDI over a Prius during the Cash For Clunkers extravaganza last summer, because it maximized my incentive benefit without driving like a paper airplane. I’ll see how it goes for me (so far, zero problems and a nice DSG warranty extension), and will consider whether to sell or trade depending on how trustworthy I consider it towards the end of my warranty.
In the meantime, please stop putting words in the mouths of supposed “fanboys” just because you have something against them for some reason.
Michael- It would be cool if you could somehow get a feeling for the performance of the dealerships. Something like: did the dealership fix the vehicle on the first trip…
Even if the Vee-Dubs had above-average reliability, I’d still be hesitant to purchase one because I hear nightmare stories about VW dealerships.
The problem here is once again sample size. If we assume that competence varies from dealership to dealership and even mechanic to mechanic rather than being fairly uniform within a brand, and this seems quite likely, then you’d need a relatively large sample size to accurately measure it. I’d love to, as failed repairs are a major source of frustration.
“If German cars had a stellar reputation for reliability, Lexus would not be where it is today.”
While this statement is somewhat true, it discounts (ha!) the fact that a significant price differential at MSRP is also what allowed Lexus to make inroads into the luxury market.
And where is Lexus?
Nowhere in Europe.
The durability of diesels are well documented.
The most obvious reason for this are that diesels runs with lower rpm, and have better low end torque, so you don´t have to rev to 6000rpm to get away fast.
You can find a dieselcar with problems of course, but not more so than with petrolcars.
In Europe there are BIG tax incentives to buy diesel cars. Fleet cars are mostly diesel. Lexus does not make diesel engines , so Lexus sales suffer accordingly. You can buy the small Lexus with a diesel engine , but this is a Toyota engine and not really suitable for a Lexus.
Electrical gremlins and German cars go together like peanut butter and jelly.
Thanks, Michael. I’m not knocking your reviews of sporty luxobarges, they are quite entertaining, but this is the real stuff.
I’m a little surprised about the VWs. My ’08 GTI has been virtually bulletproof, and I don’t drive Miss Daisy when I’m behind the wheel. It’s too bad to see such a slip.
As noted in the article, the 2008 and 2009 compact VWs have required very few repairs. Problem is, it doesn’t take much to produce a blip these days. I report the actual repair frequencies–one repair trip per car per year is nearly double the average. So if a new car has a single problem that affects a high percentage of cars, you’re there.
The great majority of problems are minor. Wind noise has been a common problem with the new GTI. And replacing an O2 sensor isn’t a big deal.
My ’06 TDI is at 280,000 km now. It has been fine. Not perfect (I’ve had to fix a few little things over the years), but at this mileage, better than any other vehicle I’ve owned. Wheel bearings were the only expensive repair – it needed all four corners at 200,000 +/- 20,000 km. But, I tow a trailer with this car, and that probably doesn’t help matters.
Original (dual-mass) clutch, original turbo, original alternator, original battery. Mine doesn’t have the super fancy and complex emission control systems that the new ones have … I knew that was coming at the time, and intentionally bought ahead of that so I wouldn’t be one of the guinea pigs.
I know, my future son-in-law who lives in Los Angeles drives a 240D with a 4-speed manual and loves it, even though it maxes out at 65 mph.
My recent one had 300,000 miles, i changed oil and add Bitron oil
treatment http://echo.naturelinesolutions.com/product_engine.html
I was able to open her up to 83 MPH just abit shy under 85.
The initial pick up off the line is totally Escargot pace or Glacial shifting.
I end up selling it before it gave me Ulcers.
Now I got a couple of Turbo 300, is OK still not going to win a stop light Grand Prix, at least u can have enuf power to get some irate tailgaters off your derriere.
No need to say the electronics in a modern day diesel, even a 86 Merc dsl 300 has a few elec control/feedback that constantly communicate with the Mother ship in Stuttgart.
Once your had these controls u’re at the mercy of these Gizmos.
I think electronic components have Military grade and comm grade, Mil G probably costs more.
or look at the Tach amp in these Merc turbo dsl, they’re pretty tough but after so many yrs the solder joint could come undone and cause intermittent non open circuit. I onces opened one up all I did was to wiggle the wiring and it worked again.
The TDIs in the survey do have a very high average odometer reading. For example, it’s already 150k for the 2003s. For reasons obvious when you think about it, people who drive a lot are more likely to buy a TDI.
It would be helpful, Michael, if you provided standard errors or confidence limits for your reported statistics. The small sample sizes require this.
The amount of information I currently provide with the results generates a fair number of complaints. Many people are looking for less rather than more. I used to provide confidence intervals, and the standard errors are actually in the results table in the database, but they confused a lot of people. A solution might be to somehow layer the information on the site–I need a really good designer.
There is also the question of how to appropriately calculate the standard errors. Currently the the formula I use assumes that cars are the relevant unit. Combine this with the interval values for individual cars (0, 1, 2 repairs trips) and the tendency of the results to cluster around a half, and you necessarily get large standard errors, since every single car is distant from the average and so contributes substantially to the calculated error.
It might make more sense to treat individual months or quarters as the relevant unit, but I haven’t further explored this.
I notice Audi is missing from the article as well as all the comments. Any ideas on how the A4 is doing compared to the Merc and the BMW?