TTAC reader JeremyR writes:
My trusty 20-plus-year-old Accord is getting a bit long in the tooth, and I’m starting to think about a replacement. While the car will be used primarily for commuting, I’d like to maximize the “fun to drive” quotient while respecting some other requirements:
* must have a manual transmission
* must be reasonably efficient (30mpg+ highway)
* must be reliable (though I don’t mind occasionally getting dirt under my fingernails doing some maintenance)
* must be able to seat four in reasonable comfort (the back seat should be adequate to transport two adults across town)
* should be a five-door hatch (but other configurations will be considered)
* should be under $10K (USD)
Obvious choices would be the Mazda Protege5 or Mazda3, or the occasional Honda Fit that wanders down into $10K territory. Ford Focuses (Foci?) are cheap and plentiful, although the repair history is spottier for some years than others. I’ve always liked the look of the Saturn Astra, but the reliability and availability of parts down the road scares me a bit. Then there’s the VW Golf, but the fabled reliability of out-of-warranty VW’s is downright scary. A MINI Cooper would probably peg the fun-to-drive meter (for this segment), and may even be worth the somewhat-cramped rear seat, but would an older MINI prove to be a money pit?
On the other hand: Just over the horizon, the Ford Fiesta and Mazda2 look promising, although I’d have to open my wallet a little wider for one. Decisions, decisions…
Sajeev Answers:
Your budget and fuel economy criteria keep you in the small displacement, hot hatch category. You know, if that genre still existed outside of the Mazda 3. Perhaps I’m not being generous, as the Focus, Lancer, Civic and maybe even the Corolla XRS are right up your alley. Maybe even the recently-released Lancer 5-door “Sportback” fits the bill, as new car incentives might get the actual purchase price close enough to your budget. Compact crossovers are worth a test drive, but I’m reaching even deeper for my pick: a totally mundane (yet still somewhat fun) Hyundai Elantra.
Sure, the Elantra doesn’t look very special, but is your current Honda a babe magnet? And taking advantage of Korean depreciation levels (while we can) means you get more car, a newer car, a car with a better warranty for the same coin. Might be hard to find with a stick, but it’ll be an fitting successor to your Accord.
Steve Answers:
Holy cow. Either I must be getting younger or Sajeev has an incurable case of the 30’s. The Elantra was at the very top of my list. Why? Well, it’s not easy to explain. It’s got the aspiring reliability of a Corolla. A fairly reasonable set of features and options to make it a good ride for the long haul. The five speed snicker in the middle. A pretty interesting GT version for the prior generation. Plus it will satisfy the four person itch you so brazenly desire.
But I don’t know… something’s missing. Hyundais until very recently have always struck me as a cheap Toyota with a more tinny feel to them. Mazdas I like. In fact, I may just have to say drive one of those. But there’s something missing in this mix. Something a bit more contemporary and versatile.
My choice would be the Nissan Versa S hatchback. The international Model T of modern times just strikes me as a more roomy, economical and pleasurable cruiser for the long-run than any of them. It’s a car you can haul people and stuff in. Get married. Have kids… and then keep running it until the next ice age. As it becomes older in the year 2020 or so, it should have plenty of cheap parts at the local auto recycling centers. Who knows? You may be one of those brilliant souls who only needs three cars for their entire lifetime.
As much as people bitch about the Renault-esque styling, I would think that it would really be the successor for the ‘too Japanese’ Accord of the late 80’s. Buy a two to three year old version and call me again when the real estate market recovers.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder.
The 1st gen Mazda 6 hatch with the 4 banger might fit your bill. It’s a fastbackish-style hatch as apposed to the more wagonesque variety, but still pretty commodious.
+1, with ridiculously bad resale value and decent reliability the 1st gen Mazda6 is a great buy for a DD that can still peg the fun-meter when equipped with a manny-tranny.
Even with the 4 banger, I don’t think you will see 30+ mpg on anything other than long trips, at least not while burning California’s reformulated ethanol. I average 20 mpg in mostly City driving upto 25 mpg on long trips within California. My mileage jumps by about 15% when I leave the state for Oregon and Idaho (where they still sell 100% gasoline at some stations all be it for 10% more than ethanol), as I do two or three times each year. While mine has the V6 with a manual, I believe you can only expect about a 20% improvement with a 4 banger under the hood.
Having said that, I love my car. I bought it in December 2004 and still love it today. And, really how improtant is the gas mileage of your vehicle? Let’s say you drive 20,000 miles each year and the price of $3.50 per gallon. If you have a car that averages 30 mpg, you’ll pay $2,300 dollars per year (670 gallons of gas). Average 27 mpg, as you can expect witht he Mazda6 4 banger and that cost “jumps” to $2,600 (740 gallons), an extra cost of $300 per year. Even with the V6 averaging 23 mpg, as I mine has averaged over 5 1/2 years of consistent tracking, the cost jumps to $3,040 (870 gallons) per year, an extra cost of $740 per year. I’m sorry, but do those costs frighten you away from a car that will be more reliable and more practical than a Mini Cooper and a heck of a lot more fun than a Hyundai or Versa?
That is more than I’d care to pay for gas, yes. I’m also predicting that I’ll still have the “next” car when the gas prices hit $4+ again.
Cars like the Honda Fit demonstrate that you don’t have to sacrifice fuel efficiency or reliability to get something that is fun to drive. Unfortunately, Fits are pretty new in the US, which puts them at the high side of what I’d like to pay.
I can attest to the less-than-wonderful gas mileage of the gen1 4-banger. Otherwise it’d be a blast…
Even at $5 per gallon the difference in fuel cost between 30 mpg, your threshold, and 27 mpg, what I would expect in mixed driving from a Mazda6 with the 2.3L I4, is only $350 per year at 20,000 miles per year. I’m just trying to put the benefit of increased fuel mileage in perspective. For me anyway, it ranks below handling, acceleration, and comfort.
But this stuff all adds up, and I can do a lot with 20-30 bucks a month. Since I already have a “fun” car, I’m willing to trade a little bit of fun for improved efficiency. Not so much that I would run out and buy a Prius, but 30 MPG (or better) seems quite attainable in this category.
Don’t overlook the 2002-2005 Honda Civic Si. No, it’s not a raging performance machine, but it has a free revving engine mated to a slick transmission in hatchback form. You can easily find an example with 50-60k miles for under $10k. It’s a 3 door, but otherwise fits the bill nicely.
I’m in the same situation as you, with more or less the same criteria. At the top of my list is a 1st gen Matrix XRS. You have to give up the 30 mpg, but you get a 6sp that is a lot of fun to drive if you’re willing to rev that little Yamaha workhorse that’s under the hood.
Get an even better deal with a Pontiac Vibe GT. I personally prefer it’s styling to the Matrix and you don’t pay the Toyota used car premium when you get a Vibe.
May I suggest a SAAB 900 (or 9-3)? I would recommend a 1998 non-turbo. Looks for one with meticulous service records.
They are head and shoulders above all these Mazdas and Hyundais. Including reliability wise.
Supremely comfortable, quiet, good handling, great brakes and terrific in snow. Enormous hatch. Will effortlessly cruise 130 mph all day long.
I second the older Saab recommendation. Our 1995 900S is a non-turbo with stick. It has 130,000 miles on it and runs like a charm. I’d also recommend a non-turbo version, there’s much less to worry about and it’s still a fun car. Avoid the troublesome V6.
The Mazda3 and Protege5 would also both seem to be good buys.
I might also consider a Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix, which feel bit noisy and unrefined but are also extremely practical and came with a stick.
I know I’ve said this on here before, but at my site http://studentwheels.wordpress.com/, we’ve reviewed a few of these cars.
Good luck!
In twenty years, my family has owned 24 Saabs. So you see I have some cred, right? I also do all my own work on them. I like them. The right ones anyway.
And yet, of all the cars on the planet, I can’t think of a worse recommendation than a 1994-2003 Saab 900/9-3. If you guys haven’t experienced a loss of oil pressure yet, wait for it. It is coming. Your balance shaft sprockets are GOING to disintegrate and send metal shards through your oil pump, scoring the pump and the timing cover, killing oil pressure and very soon your engine. The cure? More than the car’s worth.
The turbo version? Does the word “sludge” mean anything to you?
Don’t forget the other common issues such as failing control arm bushings, shocks, strut bearings, DI cassettes (where applicable) and the relative dearth of good Saab mechanics in most parts of the country.
Granted, you can pick up one of these cars for around $2k. But repairs will be frequent and usually in the $1k range.
Our poster’s original idea was to get OUT of a twenty-year-old car in any case.
My vote: stick with the 20-year-old car until it won’t move, or until the rust claims it.
I have owned 5 SAABs (dingram has me beat), all with turbos, and the turbo mechanicals have never been an issue from either a reliability or maintenance standpoint. The merits of an old used SAAB can be debated, but SAAB got the turbo thing down a while ago. I wouldn’t shy away from a good example of a turbo 900, if that’s the way you want to go.
Anyway, I think talkstoanimals has it right, above: Mazda 6 5-door hatch fits the bill, is fun to drive to boot, and massive depreciation means that your $10K limit is workable.
“In twenty years, my family has owned 24 Saabs.”
Sounds like a very good reason to avoid Saab to me…
Unless you’re like an eight car family or something.
I also thought you were looking for a SAAB, at least in the packaging.
I’d agree that moving from a 20+ year old accord to a 10 year + SAAB isn’t a great move. That being said, some of the fears are a bit too much.
Balance shafts disintegrating? Sludge (got with a t5 system, not the t7). Safety? go with a 9-3.
So it comes down to a 99 9-3. Improved safety, a t5. Turbo as well. probably about 3-5K, tops. A 10-11 year old car that can easily give you another five years.
A local swedish car shop (Called 2 Swedish Guys) always has a 5:1 ratio for Saab to Volvo. Go figure.
I would look for a low miles 1999-2002 Saab 9-3. I haven’t had dingram’s volume of experience but I’ve driven the fricking piss out of a few of these. You can fit just about anything you need in the hatch. You can get 30 mpg at 120 mph with the AC on. I also unfortunately have verified that they crash well.
I would also suggest a 1st gen Scion Xb, readily available with a manual transmission in the sub-10K range, huge back seat, super-reliable and fun to drive. May not suit your style but worth a look.
My data at TrueDelta.com suggest that the Elantras are good but not great back to the 2003 model year. The 2001s and 2002s appear to require a repair trip or two each year. Cannot yet say whether the 2003s are more solid, or only younger and will have just as many problems as the odometer approaches 100k.
I’m a fan of Mazda, but would not recommend the Mazda3 if you live where the roads are salted. These cars are prone to rust.
The Focus should be about average back to the 2002s. As with the Hyundai it’s unclear if the newer cars will hold up past 100k miles.
http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php
If he’s willing to wait another year, the next-gen Elantra is MUCH better-looking than the current, frumpy one. In fact, like all of Hyundai’s new products, it’s likely better in every way.
You appear to have missed the $10k limit.
The under 10k part obviates a new car.
Olser Saabs 900s and 9000s are OK, but they are almost as old as your Accord.
The 9-5 I had one my worst car for reliability evah. Horrible electrical problems, not wiring but the modules themselves. Most weren’t walk homes, but some were.
I’d look for another Honda.
If you were in Europe I’d say an Alfa 147 with a JTD engine.
In the US, I’d go with the Mazda3.
But there are other options: HHR for example.
If JeremyR likes Accords, I suggest that he ponies up for a used 1st gen. Acura TSX. It’s the best Accord available in the USA.
I would have said Fit in a second until that last line, under $10k. Ones at that price point, at least in So Cal are way too “used” to be worth it.
Get on Auto Trader or Car Max, input your criteria, and get a realisitic assesment of what you can get for $10K that fits your needs. You may be suprized (either happily or unhappily.)
@Partsunknown I don’t mean it as a dig at Lang and Sajeev, I simply feel the gentlemen’s criteria are rather broad (other than the manual transmission requirement.) Wait really broad criteria? Who else’s New or Used does that sound like? (all fingers pointing at me)
Well, jeez, if everyone did that, we wouldn’t need to rely on the sage advice of Lang and Sajeev.
Dan’s advice, while sound, is quite boring. Buying a car should be fun, mentally exhausting and personally insulting all at once.
That’s where Mehta + Lang come into play.
“Buying a car should be fun, mentally exhausting and personally insulting all at once.”
I have the names of a few dealers that could help him with the “mentally exhausting and personally insulting” part.
How are the criteria overly broad? I think just the criteria of “fun to drive,” “stick shift” and “seats four” narrow the field considerably. And while, as you suggest, many of these criteria can be filtered on in a simple AutoTrader search, “fun to drive” is a little more elusive.
Having said that, if I can be more specific in any area, I’d be happy to try to do so…
Dang tough crowd, tough crowd. I didn’t mean it as a personal afront, Amigo. Now that you bring up “Fun To Drive” the Nissan Altima has been very highly reguarded in that respect. A few reviews I’ve read have called it the most sporting family sedan available in base trim. A manual will be hard to find but the CVT has been well liked by most who have driven it. In my area (Southwestern United States) many CPO models can be had for 10 to 12Gs. They’re 4cyl CVT models but the base model seems nice and will certainly get 30mpg.
No offense taken. I haven’t really considered the Altima, as they seem to have become rather large over the years, but it sounds like it might be worth a second thought. We’ll see how rare those manuals really are…
Oh dear. You cannot replace a twenty-year-old Accord , because Accords went downhill after this model (until 2003 , but it was called an Acura TSX by then)
The Elantra and Versa are best avoided.Look at a Mazda 3 if a Mazda 6 is too big for you.
I thought that the next generation of Accords (1993-1997) after JeremyR’s were still pretty good. Accords did not go downhill until 1998, when Honda decided to turn the Accord into a Camry.
Agree as to the TSX (see my previous comment).
Actually mine was a 3G, ’86-’89. The 5G’s are well-regarded and, in my opinion, one of the best-looking Accord models.
How about a PT Cruiser? Volvo V40?
You’re already a Honda guy, get the Fit!
Friend of mine just replaced her 20 year old Accord with a manual transmission Fit.
If you keep it 20 years, the extra 6K will be long forgotten.
I’d bag the 5 door and look at an RSX. Folding a front seat is really not as big a deal as people think and how often do you really put people in back?
It’d be huge fun, reliable and you’d feel great driving it. Just find one that hasn’t been fart canned and hooned.
The base model RSX had extremely puny brakes, even by Honda standards. I was scared to drive mine until I upgraded the brake pads.
Hyundai Elantra TOURING (the short version of the European Hyundai i30) fits the bill perfectly, except maybe the $10k part. Another year or two should take care of that.
I would either keep the car til it dies. It saves money over time. Every time you have to do some maintenance or repair think of it as a car payment. Keep up on maintenance as it should be a good car for a long time. Also keep in mind that you know the previous owner of the car you have and how it was treated.
I owned a 2003 or 2004 Acura TSX sedan with the 6 speed. It was a beautiful car (got comments all the time) with great handling and a 6 speed tranny that other cars were measured by but few matched. It’s only drawback was that the engine was willing and had decent power / mpg but just lacked the power to make the car great.
The Elantra is neat looking and has gotten good press. I test drove one and wanted to like it, but found that the seating position was awkward, the engine was harsh above 3,000 rpm, and there is a perforated plastic piece on the interior door panels where there should be fabric, which really irked me.
Segfault – I drove an Elantra for two days and found the same problems you did. Plus the one I had, had a distinctive whine to it above 2k rpm.
I just rented an Elantra for a couple days. Great highway car, if the hills aren’t too steep, terrible everywhere else. The auto-tranny was definitely a big part of it’s problem, but I don’t think a 5-speed would help enough to make me want one.
Many of the cars require expensive servicing. For my bet the Corolla has a timing chain, longer service intervals than the elantra, civic, etc and has tops in reliability/mileage. No matter how I cut it, toyota seems to deliver the best motoring experience for the dollar.
Mazda uses a timing chain as well. At least on the V6, and I’m fairly certain on the 4 cylinder engines as well though it was over 5 years ago when I researched this prior to buying my Mazda6 with a V6.
$10k will buy a pretty nice ’05+ Saab 9-5. At that point (post 2003), the sludge issues were worked out; no major engine gotchas. And there are a ton of 5-speeds out there, since they tended to be bought by enthusiasts.
Okay, so I understand some of the comments that have been tossed about re. Saab reliability. Understandable, any car can cause you problems. More of a concern for me would be that fact that the first-gen 9-3 IS a very old design.
In response to the later comments, I really do like the idea of getting an Acura TSX, if you can find a good one for a good price, and if you’re willing to go without the hatch. I would also consider a manual 2003-2007 Honda Accord. Quite a nice car; far preferable to the new one in my view.
I’d avoid spending ten grand on a stripped-down brand-new Hyundai or Versa when, for the same money, you could get something a few years used but also much more enjoyable. It’s similarly basic, but I drove a 2006 Focus ZX3 not long ago (review here: http://studentwheels.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/focus-zx3/ ) and was pleasantly surprised. It was a fun little car, but, as you said, the repair history is occasionally a bit frightening for the Focus.
One other suggestion I have at the moment is the Subaru Forester (pre-2007 model.) It may be too much of a cross-over for you, and it isn’t as efficient as some models, but it’s nonetheless a well-built, bullet-proof car. I’m not sure if winter driving is an issue where you live or not, but it’s good on that front too. The Forester did come with a manual, although they’re tough-ish to find.
Where I live, ten large will buy you a 2004 Forester 2.5 XS with 75,000 miles on the clock. They hold their value well, that’s for sure.
Again, good luck!
Contrarian suggestion that all the fanboys will dismiss (which makes it a better deal for you $$$):
2008 Chevrolet Aveo5 LS with average miles. Under $10,000 at retail. All cars today that are reasonably well-maintained will serve you well. You’ll save enough on this one to buy some trick rims if your ego so demands. Downside: it might be difficult finding a manual transmission (but that goes for just about everything). Stay away from older Mazdas and Hondas: they’ve likely already been abused/modified by their teen owners. +1 on the Versa idea.
I know this is way outside of the box as there is no manual transmission available but You can get a 2005 Prius for about $10K now and they fit every other qualification you mentioned.
XX must have a manual transmission
^ very efficient
^ reliable
^ seats four in reasonable comfort
^ five-door hatch
?? should be under $10K (USD) (depends on your local market but it isn’t that hard to find a 2005 Prius with about 75K miles on it around $10K in my area.
Keep in mind dealers will drop a couple of grand off of the price of even a certified used Toyota without you even trying to get them to drop the price. All I did was test drive a Matrix and a Prius and tell them I’d like to think about it and they dropped the price on the prius 2 or 3 times in minutes before I left. I ended up buying elsewhere but it sure did show me the power of patience when dealing with auto pricing.
I suppose though that sort of behaviour exists at dealers when dealing with non Toyota used cars?
Prius is definitely a thought. The second-gen is considered a midsize car and gets full marks from Consumer Reports.
I have the ’05 xB. I paid $11k for a 22k mile example, last year. So it *should* fit the bill.
The caveat is if the buyer’s commute involves a lot of highway driving. The xB is geared for city driving. On my stickshift version, 80mph equals 4000 rpm. I find that annoyingly buzzy. Also, fuel economy takes a huge dive over 65mph – that’s the (lack of) aerodynamics.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the Suzuki SX4 yet. I have similar specs and it’s been on my radar since Jonny Liberman reviewed it on TTAC. You can easily get one certified preowned for under $10K.
Alas, no one mentions the SX4. That’s Suzuki’s biggest problem.
That said, the SX4 is closer to a true 1990 Accord replacement than today’s Civic would be, never mind the bloated 2010 Accord.
The SX4 might make for an interesting car mag comparo. But to purchase and own? Where are you going to buy one, and where are you going to get it serviced? Currently, there are a couple of manual transmission SX4 hatchbacks within 100 miles of Los Angeles for sale on autotrader. Here in the land of Japanese cars I cannot even tell you where the closest Suzuki dealer is. Will Suzuki even be selling cars in the US much longer?
You get it serviced wherever the hell you want to (warranty or not). A family member just got one of these for $12k with 10k miles on it (loaded 5-spd). It could use finishing (tires, slightly better damping), but it isn’t annoyingly bad out of the box, like most of the large volume alternatives already mentioned.
The Versa??? Strictly a highway car, and a real slob on back roads.
An Acura Integra in any guise should suit all your needs very well. Manuals abound, mid 30’s on the highway, bullet proof drivetrains, very roomy for driver and passenger (rear seats in either the 3dr or 4dr won’t kill anyone for an hour) and, contrary to popular belief, there are tons of unmodified cars on the market and all of them should be well under $10k. The hatch on the 3dr will fit just about anything with the rear seats folded and your rear seat passengers will be a little more comfortable in the 4dr. The more pedestrian LS and GS cars have more than enough power to have fun with but a stock, low mileage GS-R will make you smile every time you drive the car.
Gen1 Cadillac CTS. Doesn’t meet the 5-door criteria but I would say blows past everything else on your list. Will require a lighter foot to keep your average around 30MPG, but highway mileage should be no problem.
Will have to shop around to find one in your budget or hit an auction. Lots around 12k though, should be easy to talk down to 10-11k or so.
Best high depreciation car I can think of at the moment and better than any sh*tbox you can buy for that price.
May also try a used Impreza wagon. That will be tougher to locate in your budget in good condition. There is always an older Forrester which is built on the Impreza. Drive one before you write it off, you’ll be surprised how much different it drives than it looks if you haven’t driven one before.
As a former Mazda3 owner, I can’t say I recommend one if you want to do your own maintenance. You cannot even re-time the car if necessary without special dealer tools, which you cannot buy. My 2006 3 developed a bad valve stem leak at 66k miles. I drove it another year to 85k and traded in for a new WRX which was the car I wanted in the first place. Someone else can pay the dealer to fix it, not me, when I could do that easily myself if dealer tools were not required.
Other than that no problems with it other than a broken motor mount and the bolts from the power moonroof fell out from my stereo shaking them loose.
>Gen1 Cadillac CTS
I believe the qualifier of “reliable” scratches that out, at least the earlier model years. I think it was around the 07 MY that they stopped including an M67 in the rear diff.
Why would anyone replace a good Honda with a low-life SAAB? I would run, not walk, to the nearest Honda dealer for a replacement.
I’ll agree with Michael; my wife has a 2004 Mazda3 with 155,000 km. Great car to drive with decent reliability; the only problems have been wheel bearings. That said, we’ve noticed the car is definitely showing signs of rust in the rear fender and trunk lid – we are in Toronto.
Ten large will buy you a nice ’93 Volvo 240 wagon, plus all the upgrades you’d need to make it fun (sways, springs, shocks, manual transmission). Haul as many people as you need comfortably, plus lumber. Will still run forever. Easy to work on and great support community. But maybe a 240 is only my idea of fun to drive…
Don’t forget the carpet and upholstery funk which comes standard on such an old car. Not to mention high-priced Swedish parts and service. Besides, compared to late model cars Volvo 240s aren’t that safe and they’re not that fun to drive.
Honestly, I drove an Elantra sedan before I bought my Mazda 3, and the Elantra was one of the worst handling cars I’ve ever driven. The Sentra is another poor handling compact. I think that a used 5-door Mazda 3 fits your criteria perfectly. Also, the Suzuki SX4 and Subaru Impreza 5-doors.
Treat yourself to some real fun and get yourself a ’98 or ’99 M3 sedan. You can expect to put between $1k and $2k per year into it in maintenance and repairs, but you get classic good looks and style, a fair amount of luxury features, seating for 4 (plus pretty good storage capacity with fold-down rear seats), 28+ MPGs on the highway and low 20s in town, bulletproof reliability (things that commonly need fixing aren’t the sort of things that leave you stranded), and manual transmission. Super fun to drive. Drive it until it is 20 years old and go from there. Shouldn’t be hard at all to find a good example in the $9k to $10k range.
I’m driving a 2006 Mazda3 5 door hatch 2.3 liter, this is by far the most fun to drive car for the price.
Very reliable, 55k so far, 5 speed AT that is so good in doing what he thinks you want to do that most of the time I don’t use the manual mode.
Killer brakes and handling.
Cons:
Expensive tires, 205/50-17, hard suspension for city driving, so, so fuel economy, any Camry Accord or the new Sonata can do much better with fuel consumption but the big smile on your face after driving the Mazda will erase any memory of any other car in this category of compacts.
Lexus IS00 Sportcross. Yes they do exist. Super rare if nothing else.
Acura CL 3.2 – had a 6spd manual and can fit 4 in a pinch.
Mini Clubman if you can stretch the budget. Cooper S if you can’t.
But yeah, just get a Mazda3 and call it a day.
I’d second the Clubman, but they’ve only been around a couple years, finding one for 10 grand is probably impossible. The backseat in the ‘normal’ Cooper is a joke. I’d probably go Mazda3 and call it good.
I like the 1st-generation IS a lot, and I’m pretty sure they got around to adding a manual transmission at some point. I just think they could stand to be a little more fuel-miserly (we never got the 2.0-liter version in the USA).
The 90-93 Accord is a tough act to follow. I still miss my wife’s ’93 coupe. Honda was really at the top of thier game when these cars were designed. If you liked yours, why not try to find a ’93 wagon version? 10 grand should easily cover a creampuff, if you can find one, with plenty left over for any reconditioning needed. Un-riced or non-beat coupes and even sedans are getting tough to find but the wagons I have seen are generally nice examples, and I think the wagon was EX trim only. They even look decent for a wagon. Just a thought.
I’m glad I read the whole thread, because you’ve said exactly what I would have. I don’t know about the next couple of years, but in 1991 the wagon was available in EXR trim with a 5-speed manual. Somewhere there is a pristine, low-miles wagon, with that matchless 1991 EXR velour interior, waiting for a dedicated hunter to sleuth it out.
BTW, I have a babied 1991 EXR sedan, bought new, in this gray color:
http://image.motortrend.com/f/9479581/112_0708_06z+honda_accord_history+1991_honda_accord
…ain’t gonna be for sale anytime soon.
Yes, it has been twenty years, and if it were released again today it would still be a knockout.
The Toyota Matrix was available with the Celica engine and a 6-speed manual. Those go for about $8,000.
Have you ever seen one in the wild? All the peformance models (Vibe GT, Matrix XRS) that I’ve seen in person were automatics. Driving a base Vibe regularly like I do, I’ve always thought the high performance models would be interesting and fun to own. The chassis has huge potential.
I just checked Craigslist. There were three manual eqipped Martixes in my area. Only one came with the 6-speed. They’re not easy to find. XBs and 3s are easier to find with manuals.
Get yourself a 2003/4/5/6/7 Accord V6 with 6 speed manual tranny.
They’re a bit hard to find, but worth the search. They’re a LOT of
fun to drive, and will easily get you 30+ mpg highway.
Some interesting suggestions here…
A little more background: I “inherited” this 3rd-generation Accord, and even though our two-person family already had two cars, I kept it as a commuter. If I had been actually shopping for a car, it probably wouldn’t have been on my radar at all (among other things, it’s slushbox-equipped). But the price was right!
This Accord probably has quite a bit of life left in it, mechanically speaking. At 120K miles, it’s just reaching its stride–but the rust is starting to take hold, especially in the driver-side rocker panel. (The car was in an accident in a previous life, and apparently not repaired very well.) I could certainly hold on to it until it dies; it probably won’t rust to death for another few years at least. But it’s just not that much fun.
Now, I’m not looking for a hoonmobile; my other car is a Boxster, so I’m pretty well covered in that area. I also figure I’m taking on enough risk already in the expensive repairs department, although so far (52K miles) it hasn’t needed any. And my other other car is an Outback (mostly driven by my wife), so I don’t need anything too sensible, other than the ability to occasionally take some co-workers to lunch (and things of that sort). Incidentally, this doesn’t necessarily rule out two- or three-doors, as long as the back seat isn’t completely laughable.
The $10K limit is pretty arbitrary, but it seems that there’s enough out there below this price point that I shouldn’t need to spend more than that–unless the Fiesta or Mazda2 are that good. Anyway, while I’ve homed in on a few models, I figured the B&B would probably point out a few that I’ve overlooked.
And that you have! Thanks for that. Let’s have a look at some of the suggestions:
* Elantra: This definitely wasn’t on my radar. The Touring is a handsome enough vehicle, and not quite as mundane as the sedan (not that I necessarily mind mundane). I haven’t seen many reviews that give it high marks in the “fun to drive” category, but it at least warrants further research.
* Versa: These might be nice enough cars, but I just can’t get over the styling. While I don’t need a “chick magnet,” the look of the car has to appeal at least to me :-)
* Mazda6: Hadn’t considered this one either, as I considered the smaller 3 (and Protege) to be adequate. Still, another one I can look into.
* 2002-05 Civic Si: These seem to be great cars (if only that generation had been offered as a 5-door!) But given the popularity of these with the boy racer crowd, my primary concerns would be (1) finding one that hasn’t been hooned to death, and (2) the possibility of the car (or pieces thereof) being stolen. The Integra and RSX fall into this category as well.
* Saab (any model): We had a Saab 9000 a few years back. My wife loved that car (and I thought it was pretty decent too, other than the torque steer), but we didn’t love the repair bills that came along with it!
* xB: I had looked into this as well as its cousin the xA, but “fun to drive” didn’t seem to be in the lexicon of those who reviewed them.
* CTS: A great car, I’m sure, but probably just too large for my purposes.
Interesting that, so far, nobody has gone to bat for Volkswagen. Is their reliability really that indefensible?
Anyway, thanks again for the suggestions. It will probably be at least a few more months before I really get serious (and the old Honda will certainly keep running in the meantime!), and you’ve all given me some interesting alternatives to think about!
What makes the 3rd gen Integra so desirable to thieves is the fact that nearly every part on the car can be bolted onto/into any Civic from the 90’s. If the car is regularly unattended in public then your concern of theft is a legitimate one. I’d be less concerned with an ep3 Si or a base RSX. Both cars share the k20a3 and, while it’s possible to swap these into earlier gen gen Civics and Integras, it just doesn’t make sense; there are better b-series engines that are simply easier to steal. The point is that, because of the weaker engine and the fact that the parts don’t have any commonality with “lesser” Hondas, they really don’t get stolen. The car to stay away from would be an RSX Type-S, which sports the “hotter” k20a2 and k20z1 engines. If you find yourself seriously considering one of these cars there won’t be any trouble finding one that hasn’t been abused. They’re out there.
JeremyR, 1997+ 900 is likely to be FAR more reliable than your 9000. And yes, you will love it! Yes, a tiny percentage of early 900s had balance sprocket problems. However, overall they are very reliable and durable cars, easy to work on and parts are cheap and plentiful. Not that many hatchbacks are available in this market.
Another one I would mention is Subaru Impreza. Quite a bit less practical than SAAB 900 and far worse in snow in AWD form. However, they are very reliable. Small number of them were affected by rear wheel bearing failure and leaky head gaskets. They are well engineered cars. Best ones are early 90s models with front wheel drive. Most comfortable, most reliable and best in snow.
Oh stop it. I’m a big Saab fan, but come on.
Balance shaft issues affect almost all the non-turbo engines, eventually. No “tiny percentage” baloney, please. Turbos have close to 100% sludge rate.
Wanna love ’em, but been there too many times. There’s a reason you can buy them so inexpensively.
A post-2003 9-5 might be a safer bet, though, and would be a better car. Wagon form offers the cargo-carrying capacity and has decent sportiness as well. Still dirt cheap, but DI cassettes are getting more expensive and you can’t diagnose much without the Saab-specific Tech II tool.
My all-time favorite Saab is the 9000 range, but I can do all the work on those models myself with my eyes closed practically. If I had to pay a mechanic it would be less attractive.
Mazda RX-8 would fit better than anything I have seen mentioned. Well other than one little fly in the ointment…..you will need to buy twice the gas for it.
The back seat is more than a little cramped, no? That would be two strikes against it. They make a great sports car, though!
The back seat wasn’t cramped for me (6′) sitting behind my wife (6’1″) during test drives.
I’ve never been in an RX-8. I had no idea they were so commodious; they certainly don’t look that way from the outside. Bummer about the fuel consumption, though.
Yep, great fun if you like a high revving engine combined with beautiful handling. It just wasn’t quite right for us. By the way, I don’t know how comfortable the back seat would be on a long trip. I could see where the term cluastrophobic could be used as there is little visibility out the sides for anyone in the back seat. The seat itself was comfortable enough.
Accords don’t get replaced, they just rust into oblivion.
Look for an Elantra GT hatchback, available with decent miles way under $10K and there’s a few stick shifts around. 30MPG isn’t out of reach. Fits the bill pretty much spot on.
Or since you’re a Honda guy it seems, either a Fit or the aforementioned Civic Si hatch.
I’d go with the Astra. Parts availability be damned.
Well, that’s intriguing. What is it about the Astra that you would recommend it? (Mind you, I like the look of the car and am trying to find more reasons to like it!)
Dynamically, the Astra’s steering gives good feedback, the tires provide massive grip, and body roll is extremely well controlled.
More personally, I liked the industrial design theme of the interior, found the driver’s seat very comfortable, quickly got used to the clutch and shifter, and found the DIC display to be a nice feature for this class of car.
Well, that certainly sounds positive. Given that Astras are still fairly new, they’re on the high side of my price range, but I can keep my eyes open…
Nobody who has damned the previous gen Elantra seems to have ever set foot near one, so I’ll chime in. Having owned a ’03 Protege5 and still owning an ’03 Elantra GT, I’m voting myself as qualified to do a little comparo. :-)
Fun to drive: The Elantra is not particularly fun to drive. Although mine is a slushbox, I can’t see the five-speed as being much better. The P5 was waaaay more hoonable. The Elantra is a far superior highway cruiser though. Both cars were comfortable, but the Elantra gets the nod in comfort and ride, plus the highway gearing is much more relaxing to the ears.
Reliability: Both were pretty good. A few minor glitches (rear ABS Sensors were a regular maintenance item) on the P5, but it was sold at 80k. The Elantra has 155k and counting and has required only one major repair: a head gasket at 130k, which I did myself and wasn’t terribly difficult. Both are fairly DIY friendly cars.
Economy: Both the P5 (stick) and the GT (auto) got about 28 in mixed driving. A stick Elantra would probably get a few ticks more. The downfall to the P5 here was the screaming 5th gear ratio at highway speeds.
Comfort/etc: Both had excellent front seats and adequate rear room. The rear seat and cargo hold of the Hyundai are bigger. The Elantra can seat five in a pinch. Don’t think the P5 would have.
I really liked both of these cars but when the family grew and one had to go, it was the Protege. Which shocked even myself at the time, but for the long-haul the Hyundai was the easier car to live with, plus the Protege was worth more as a used car. When I hit a curvy road, I still wish I had it, but the other 95% of the time, the Elantra fits the bill nicely. Consider it. Biggest challenge will probably be finding one that’s been maintained properly.
One other idea – we have a Honda CRV with a manual transmission. Ours is a 1999 with 130,000 miles (first generation) and now our “spare” vehicle. But even after 11 years, its 2.0 liter 16 valve engine runs perfectly. Of course, nobody builds a manual transmission like Honda.
Basically, it gets close to 30 mpg, its fun and nimble to drive, its really good in bad weather due to the AWD (and manual transmission), and it is incredibly practical. Easily carries 4 or 5 adults, but with seats down can carry a sofa. And you’ve got to love the hidden picnic table and built-in cooler under the rear floor carpet.
Obviously not a hatchback, but the 2nd generation (2003 and up) is nice looking and should be in the $10k range. And you’re used to Honda stuff. I like the Fit, and the Mazda 3 (sister has one) – but the CRV has ALOT more room and AWD. Think how many CRV’s you see on the road every day. There must be a reason.
Good luck.
Within your budget & criteria, I would look for the cleanest 2004 Focus SVT you can find. They made a 5 door version if you can find one.
If you can’t find a SVT, find a later model focus with the 2.3 mazda engine and buy the SVT suspension for a few hundred bucks from your local ford dealer.
I guess I don’t know much, but three weeks ago I had the same requirements as JeremyR with a budget of $6000. My extensively researched choice? A 6th-gen (1998-02) Accord with a stick. I’ve found it to be lots of fun. Reliable, safe and really holds through corners with decent steering feel. Slick tranny and adequate power.
I’m surprised that nobody’s mentioned it, because several of the other cars mentioned were on my list. I couldn’t find a stick 6 in LA, or a 3 in my price range (10K would be admittedly different). TSXs are no where near that price around here. An 02-05 Civic Si would be fun, but I’d still take my 01 Accord.
Epilogue: After further vehicle and market research, I narrowed the field down to three finalists: Ford Focus, Honda Fit and Mazda3 (I can’t bring myself to write “Mazda Mazda3”). All offer engaging driving dynamics, good fuel economy and at least reasonable reliability in a five-door package. But in the end, I could only bring home one car.
Ultimately, the Fit got the nod. I found a 2007 (GD3) Sport in Vivid Blue Pearl, with 40K miles and change, for a bit under $11K–just a little over the $10K target I had set. While I probably would have been happy with any of these cars, the Fit has a slight edge in fuel economy, reliability and versatility.
An added bonus is that the Fit’s wheels fit the old Accord, which has assisted in troubleshooting an odd vibration that has appeared recently. Even though I had the Accord’s wheels rebalanced, I couldn’t entirely rule out the wheels as a factor. After an afternoon spent with a floor jack and a tire iron, now I can. But that just raises more questions…
I had a chance to get acquainted with the Fit on the drive home from Houston (some 1000 miles). While not Lexus-quiet, the Fit is quite livable on the freeway. Based on comments from others, I was a bit anxious about living with engine noise from running 3500+ RPM at 75+ MPH for hours on end, but I didn’t find the noise level objectionable by any means.
If I had to complain about something, it would be that the shifter, while quite precise, feels a bit light with rather long throws. Nothing that can’t be fixed with a short shifter and a nice, weighty shift knob…
Congratulations on the purchase! You’re going to have a long, rewarding and fun ownership experience. I will warn you that a short throw shifter can seriously truncate your transmission’s life though. They’re all the rage in the enthusiast community but for more make believe reasons than practical ones. Honda obviously designed every aspect of their transmissions, shift linkage and shifter very precisely for a reason. When you start fooling around with that geometry and start banging off shifts like a race car driver with a short (actually lengthened, as the part you don’t see underneath the car is longer than the stock unit) shifter you’re not giving the transmission enough time to respond and you’ll cause premature wear. It won’t be a problem today or tomorrow but it will catch up to you. This has been noticed and proven time and time again. A weighted knob will give you a more positive feeling throw with no ill effects if you must have a different feel. Good luck!