I remember when a 15 year old car was as wore out as an old mop. Rust. Electric gremlins. Dark oils and brownish fluids spewing out of nearly every seal and gasket. When the auctions had a car that was nearly old enough to drive itself, it was usually already smoking (out of the tailpipe)… and drinking (it’s own oil and coolant). The jalopies that came from the bad old days of the 1980’s almost always left a puddle of ‘remembrance’ which you had to be careful not to step on when looking at the next elderly statesman. A run of old cars would result in a nice white cloud above everyone’s head and a post-auction headache for yours truly. It was a nasty smelly world not too long ago.. but now…
Old cars are becoming so good that nobody wants the new stuff. The overwhelming number of cars made in the 2000’s can now easily last at least 15 years with ‘average’ care. Think about some of the worst cars made over the past decade. The Chevy Aveo? Sure it’s got enough plastic and low pedigree to make John Edwards and the late Tammy Faye Baker proud. But the thing can easily run past the 200k mark if you simply keep the maintenance up. The late Metro, Cavalier, Neon, and early 2000’s Focus were often synonymous with the acronym POS. But you know what? An awful lot of them are still on the road and enabling their owners to enjoy dirt cheap tranpsort. As basic transportation they hit a quality/cost equilibrum that no new car can equal.
Now I’m sure I ticked off a few of the folks who use these as commuter scooters. So let’s go look at some of the more rare and defunct vehicles still sadly haunting our landscape. The Daewoos of the early 2000’s were so terrible (anyone remember the Daewood Lanos?) that they probably represent the last of the disposable breed. Hyundais? The Elantras and Accents from 10+ years ago are doing surprisingly well. The Kias from that time? Not so much. Certain Saabs, Land Rovers, and anything with the Chrysler 2.7L, Northstar Engine, or a Boxster engine will likely have trouble hitting the 200k mark.
But that composes maybe 3% of the entire auto market at most. Most minivans may require a tranny replacement at some point. Those can hurt but their not fatal. Then you have the differential whines on Jeeps (which most people ignore). The Honda V6’s with auto trannies that perform an expensive hari-kari along with their hybrid CVT transmissions. Certain Toyota engines had engine sludge issues. I can pretty much find a fault or two with every manufacturer. But that still doesn’t change the big picture of car ownership.
It’s getting cheaper. Way cheaper. So much cheaper that I can see a day when the average $3000 car bought by a non-enthusiast will be expected to last another seven years. When we get to that point… you may very well see a lot of public transit systems close up shop. I’m not saying this as a matter of politics or ideology. It’s just the economics of it all. Yes there are a ton of wild cards and black swans to be considered. But ten years of overproduction and cheap credit have yielded an extreme oversupply of cars that can simply endure through the years.
Def agree with Steven here. We have a 1997 Nissan Quest bought brand new with 185,000 miles. No major problems ever, though the tranny might go at around 200k. The other car, a 2000 Pontiac Grand Am is at 125,000 with the 4 cylinder engine. No major problems there, though the rotors go early and the damn turn signal sound stays on too long sometimes. Steven any experience with the durability of either of these models?
I think the avg American gets a new car every 6 years. I gotta think this number is shortening as leasing get more prevalent.
Our economy is 70% consumer spending now. Imagine how that number changes if people bought what they need rather than what they were marketed
50k for a Audi A4, ok…
I don’t think the average American is quite that affluent. There are 225 million Americans over 18, and only 8-12 million retail auto sales each year.
At best only around 1/4 of American adults could be buying a new car in any given 6-year span. The rest are settling for “new to me.”
The age of the average vehicle on the road has been increasing for quite some time, in spite of leasing becoming more common. So a car may lose its first owner at the 2-4 year mark, but stays on the road longer.
I like leases when they have a lot of manufacturer incentives behind them. I’d love to keep a car for a decade and bank the difference, but in practice, I’ve not been able to do it.
I’m with you Lang. Can’t wait to get that admin job so I can get a well cared for luxury car under 100,000 and see how right Lang is by pontificating the 15 to 20 years of service theory.
Just bought a 2003 Taurus with the 24 valve engine. 160k miles, full service history, leather interior, decent paint….2800 bucks.
If it lasts 2 years…I’ll be happy, but we plan to keep it as a 3rd car as long as it doesn’t start to eat parts for as long as it runs.
Just bought 2001 Taurus SE, with 12-valve and (128,000km) 80,000 miles for $2,000. Wonder how long will tranny last?
I’m with Mr. Lang here. Like I have said a couple of times on other threads, I’m puttting his convincing theory to the test. Even though I do feel the pangs of getting something new. Some new cars are veery attractive. As any of you who read what I right on this post know, i’m a Fiat guy. And the new Uno, next year’s new Palio, and even this year’s revamped Punto (which has got rid of a very old and bad GM engine and got new engines more in tune with its Italian heritage) pull at my heartstrings. But whenever that gets too strong just repeat Mr. Lang’s name like a mantra. That’ll keep your resolve up.
It works for me!
“…. Boxster engine will likely have trouble hitting the 200k mark.”
I take it you are calling out Porsche here?
There is nothing inherently unreliable about the Boxster layout. Millions of satisfied Subaru owners will attest to their longevity. The Subaru 2.2L H4 lasted to 180k with my adolescent self flogging it heartily.
Ian, I don’t believe he’s calling out the “boxer” layout—he’s calling out the Porsche Boxster, specifically.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wild-ass-rumor-of-the-day-porsche-boxster-engine-failures/
While the air-cooled boxer sixes of Porsches past were as reliable as wood-burning stoves, for the most part, there seems to be a good deal of evidence that the first gen Boxster and the 996-era 911 of similar vintage are more prone to very un-Porsche-like engine grenading than one might expect. The actual attrition rate may or may not be as high as believed, but even the most generous and forgiving (to Porsche) examination of the problems experienced by 986 and 996 owners would seem to suggest some obvious and significant results of Porsche’s cost-cutting (read: corner-cutting) measures in the mid to late 90s.
Shame really, because I was actively shopping the first-generation 3.2 litre Boxster S as soon as good examples could be had at or below twenty grand, and I don’t mind saying that I got more than a little bit gun-shy after hearing the first hand experiences of original owners.
Every water-cooled Porsche ever made, with a sole exception to be detailed below, is an irredeemable piece of shit. I should know, because I own two of ’em right now.
The exception is any Turbo or GT3 with the “good” engine that shares more with the GT1 than anything else.
The public transport sector will close up shop… then open up again when gas hits $20 a gallon.
It’s remarkable (Toyota sludge excepted) how many cheap cars nowadays can hit the high mileage marks and keep on going. We used to be amazed when old Sentras and Civics did it… but now it’s become the norm rather than the exception.
Surprising note on the Aveo… know anything about Suzuki Forenzas? Because from feedback from a lot of owners, those are about as finicky as Daewoos of old.
So true! Through careful driving and good maintenance, we’ve taken a Ford Aerostar (!), Chrysler New Yorker (!), and Saab 9000 to over 250,000 miles. We currently have a 1995 Saab 900 that’s well on its way.
I should note that all of those, with the exception of the 900, were automatics. None of them were even recommended when they were new!
Lang’s argument makes sense to me … to a point. If there’s a glut of fairly durable vehicles out there and many people are anxious about spending money on a new car, that points in an obvious direction: No return anytime soon to record-breaking new vehicles sales in the US.
I don’t know if I’d go as far as to predict that this will result in the closing of public transit. That assumes there is no variance in why people use it. For example, I know some folks who take transit to work because they’d rather spend the time reading rather than fighting stop-and-go freeway traffic. I know others who take the local bus because their employer offers free passes — and either charges for on-site parking or you have to fight to find a space.
I’m not afraid to buy a used car from the 1980s. Have been using a 1989 Civic as my daily driver for six years now. Bought it for $2,200 with 100,000 miles on it. Have spent around $1,200 per year on maintenance and repairs. That may be higher than an early 2000s car but the purchase price was quite a bit lower and I like this Civic better than the newer ones.
“The Honda V6’s with auto trannies that perform an expensive hari-kari along with their hybrid CVT transmissions.”
I have a 2002 V6 with 4 speed auto. Should I expect trouble. What should I do prophylactically — Regular maintenance is a given.
You might – look up any of the info on the Acura TL tranny issues. Honda extended the warranty on some of them, they were failing so regularly. And they wouldn’t let dealers rebuild them – they had them ship back to Japan for rebuild.
Good friend of mine just traded in her 2004 Odyssey for a 2010 because the tranny went bye bye (and cloth seats + messy kid = impossible to clean interior plus A/C and stereo with a mind of its own).
“What should I do prophylactically…”
Wear protection.
Most of the Honda transmission problems (at least in sedans) were with the 5-speed/V-6 combination.
“What should I do prophylactically…”
Wear protection.
-Especially when the tranny “blows”. Could get messy…
Robert, the Honda B7XA 4 speed automatic used on 1998-2002 V6 Accord has no replaceable filters. The only thing you can do proactively is change the transmission fluid regularly and possibly add an external filter and transmission cooler. I hear that some of the early Honda 5 speed automatics have similar issues. The internal metal screen will gradually clog up and kill the transmission. However, the pan has a drain plug which makes ATF drain and replace a fairly easy DIY job. One B7XA warning sign is a really slow response when you shift from reverse to drive. If it starts slipping, the end is near.
Since the B7XA appears to have an inherent design problem, you can’t find a “good” one at a junkyard. I just had one rebuilt at 115k miles. Only worth it because the rest of the car is in excellent shape. I was really tempted to do an automatic to manual conversion, but the required parts are hard to get.
I pushed a late 80’s K car past the 250K mark with just basic maintenance. It was very reliable, but when it needed repair, parts were cheap and it was easy to work on. Which brings me to my concern with today’s cars: They are so complex that they are very expensive to repair and diagnostics are out of the realm of most DIYers. Couple that with high depreciation and a lot of cars will hit the yard early due to a costly repair. On the cheap end, does it make sense to put a new transmission into a 10 year old Taurus with 130K on it? Not likely, but the car with that repair is certainly capable of another 70K or more. On the big bucks end, how many four figure electronic repairs will that 10 year old Mercedes get? Without question modern cars are certainly capable of a quarter of a million miles with basic care but will they get the chance?
One other issue is loss of the knowledge and tools to work on older cars that have some electronic complexity. As an example I had some difficulty getting a wrench to investigate the ABS light on my old station car. Seems the wrench no longer had the diagnostic equipment to check the computer. If that can happen with a garden variety make, what will happen with the more rare stuff?
@golden: You bring up some great points. I have cars that I’m familiar with, or have bought later models of older cars, because of the familiarity.
But when I look at my wife’s 2009 Pontiac, I see very little that I could service myself. Admittedly, I said the same thing 10-15 years ago when that generation of cars hit the street. But with the way these newer cars are constructed, will me or my trusty independent mechanic be able to work on these cars? I don’t know for sure.
As for putting a tranny in a 130,000 mile Taurus, it’s a judgment call. Individual circumstances dictate those decisions. I probably would, but know that I would keep the car until it absolutely died. If $1500 or $2000 this month will keep me out of car payments for another year or two, hell yes.
I like cars, I just don’t like paying for them…
The flip side is that diagnostic tools are getting pretty good, particularly on post 1996 cars with the “sky-is-falling” OBDII diagnostics in place.
Most of the routine things which need doing on modern vehicles are still well within the capabilities of a good DIY person. I know, because I do it myself most of the time. Routine brake work and suspension work have changed very little over the past 20 years. Timing belt jobs are tedious, but not really hard.
Today we also have the huge advantage of the information available on the ‘net. Twenty years ago if you were facing a strange problem with your vehicle, you had to hit the books and/or try to get information out of people who worked on that type car day in and day out. Now with the help of google and enthusiasts forums you can find out about the nuances of just about every vehicle imaginable. There may well be a YouTube video up of someone fixing your exact problem.
So, I don’t buy the “modern cars are too hard to work on yourself” argument.
John: Your points are quite valid. Today’s DIY guy has a host of help that was not available 20 years ago. Basic items, even those that have become more complicated, can be handled by a competent wrench turner. I maintain and repair my cars myself, so I do understand what you mean. However, as cars age, it will be the major mechanical failure (most likely transmission) or electrical/electronic/emission/CEL illumination issues (likely to be intermittents) that destroy your trust in the vehicle or leave you on the Brooklyn Bridge one too many times.
Take that tedious timing belt that you mentioned. If you were working on a typical FWD car from the eighties, you could have that completed in half a day, no problem. Special tools would likely be limited to the Torx type of socket to get the crank pulley off. Fast forward to today. That job is going to be an all day affair because you have so much stuff to remove just to get to the belt. Then you realize that you don’t have a certain socket or tool to get it all off. Which sucks because you were sure you were covered because you have the factory “Special Service Tool” X,Y, and Z which you ordered on the internet. You were even smart enough to get the aftermarket tool to hold the cam sprockets. If you have a few cars, no big deal, off to the store you go. But in the end, your done. All of Saturday spent with maybe your son/daughter/dog watching you for an hour.
Now, what happens with intermittent failures? Diagnostics on these can be a bear. I receive most of the trade publications (Motor Age, Motor, etc) and the stories in there on troublehsootong are amazing. A pro shop with all the tools and online support like ALLDATA can spend a full day or more on these. And they have at least a limited ability to swap parts.
So, it can be done, but because of the time factor, and the tool investment, it simply might not be as economic to do so. depending on what is wrong. I also strongly suspect the newest cars are even less friendly to work on. Dipsticks a disappearing, sealed for life stuff, using electronics mindlessly, etc. I won’t go as far as to say that the manufacturers are designing cars to be stealership serviceable only, but we are reaching a point where manufacturers are limiting what is available to the aftermarket (yes, that’s you BMW).
I suspect you get a good feeling out of fixing your own stuff. I fully understand because I am the same way. That is why I laugh when the “clean hands” people spew about reliability and durability. How can you know when you never put more than 80K on your car and don’t even know where the hood release is?
John and golden2, count me in too.
In the last 20 years, all around serviceability and ease of routine maintenance has gradually been becoming a non priority. I’m convinced that a lot of engineers have never gotten their hands dirty, but they got into the profession because someone in their highschool told them they were good at math and science…
Volvo 240 timing belt change by me- 1 hour, and the first t-belt I ever did. Volvo 850- 4 hours (probably could have pulled it off in half that time if I had to do it again). Why? There was a lot of stuff in the way! Oil change on a Toyota 3.3L V6- the filter is under the exhaust manifold (!!! wtf?) and there is a plastic engine splash pan in the way. I have to either remove the splash pan or pry it out of the way to replace the oil filter. The car has a 5,000 mile change interval because of the specter of 1990s sludging issues (there would be a lot less sludging if the filter wasn’t designed in such a stupid location.) GM blazed this trail thirty years ago with their FWD V6s remove-engine-mounts-and-jack-up-engine-to-change-rear-spark-plugs nonsense.
On the other hand, I can’t deny these economical, reliable, durable “cockroaches of the road.” Those engineers are doing a lot of things right… a whole lot of things.
Most of the routine things which need doing on modern vehicles are still well within the capabilities of a good DIY person.
John raises a good point. If you could work on your ’72 Dodge Monaco back in the day then you can certainly work on your ’04 Honda Accord now. It’s all a matter of educating and familiarizing yourself with the newer configuration of vehicles. Cars still have pretty much the same basic DNA as they did many years ago.
I have several high mileage GM alleged sh!tboxes that are supposed to fall apart three days after the warranty expires, but never have. Rust will finally get a couple of them off the road, but the cars mechanically are still sound.
The first one is a 150,000+ mile 1995 Pontiac Sunfire GT with the 2.3 Quad4 motor and the Isuzu 5 speed tranny. I bought this as a project car for my kid, but decided she was interested in other things, so I kept it as a commuter. The young man who owned the car before I did abused it pretty badly before I bought it, I’ve spent more money fixing damaged things than common sense told me I should have. But I like that size and style of car, it gets good fuel mileage and with the spare set of rims and tires, I can go autocrossing if I so desire.
The next one is a 247,000 mile 1997 Chevy Cavalier 2.2 OHV with 4spd autobox. The 2.2 pushrod motor will take all kinds of abuse as long as you change the oil regularly and swap out the old Dex Cool for the newer compatible red antifreeze. The 4T40 trannies are about indestructible, unless you neglect a leaking seal, (ask me how I know) even then it’s about $1200 for a tranny swap. This thing still has it’s original hoses, no leaks. The AC died a few years back and I haven’t fixed it, probably never will. Basically, keep up on the regular maintenance, and this cockroach of the roads will serve you well.
My kid has the son of cockroach of the roads, a 2004 Pontiac Sunfire with 2.2 Ecotec and 4T40 tranny. The Eco puts out a lot more power (+25 HP) than the 2.2 pushrod motor and gets better gas mileage, too. GM heavily revised the J-bodies for 2003 and improved everything on them. The car has 115,000 miles on it, and with regular and preventative maintenance, I could see this thing hitting 300,000 miles.
These cars are paid for, generally have low insurance, repair and theft rates, get good gas mileage and allow me to spend money in other places I deem more important. How cool is that?
It’s the rare American who buys a new car because they “need” it. They’re just bored with life and think a new car will make them feel better. And it works, until the new car smell wears off and they realize they’re staring at another 6 years of payments.
I too have a ‘cockroach’ of the road, I’ve got 270,000 miles on my 1995 Explorer and aside from heater cores, radiators, and head gaskets (going on 3 of each issue) it’s been pretty darn trouble free. I did toss a rebuilt $2200 transmission at it, at age 11, with 225,000 miles on the original 4R55E. I’ve owned it for 9 years and bought it with 100,000 miles on it. If it wasnt for the fact Im just sick of looking at it, I’d probably go to 300,000 miles with just regular oil changes. I still take it on major road trips and it still gets 18mpg in town and will nail 23mpg, and sometimes gets as high as 29 on the road.
About the only 80s cars I’ll steer clear of are the ones with the feedback carburetors. I’ll either convert them to fuel injection if I can, or I’ll take all the electronic brains out of it and swap in a conventional carb if the electronic carb is acting funky. When they work, they work pretty well, we had an 84 Olds 88 that would get 20mpg in town and 25 on the highway, with a 307 V8 and a 4 barrel carb.
Good heavens mate, if 3 head gaskets, 3 radiators, 3 heater cores and a transmission is your idea of “pretty darned trouble free”, I would hate to know what your idea of a lemon is!
I ran an ’87 Volvo 740 to 315K and it needed routine maintenance (as in brakes, suspension bits, and tires) and an A/C compressor. Engine never apart, no transmission issues and it was the infamous ZF4hp22. Still ran like a clock at around 400K when the person I sold it to retired it due to rust. Ditto an ’84 VW Jetta GLI, that one did need an alternator and a fuel pump in 350K. Still had the original radiator and A/C charge.
I will say this – while certainly there is NO question that the cheapest way to move yourself from place to place is some basically reliable fully-depreciated beater (I recommend a rust-free ’98 Corolla), what’s the fun in that? I bought well-maintained older European cars for many years and got excellent service from them doing most all the work myself to keep them in excellent shape. BUT, last year I bought a new Saab in the left-over ’08 blow-out sale. For ~$14K off MSRP. Sure is nice to have a car I don’t have to think about. It just works, I don’t even have to change the oil myself for the first three years. Gives me more time to play with my two Alfa Romeos. And modern cars really are sooo much nicer on a roadtrip. Quiet, smooth, nice toys to play with. Worth ever single penny.
Somebody has to buy new so y’all have good used cars to buy. You can thank me a couple years down the road when I buy my new European-delivery 3-series Wagon and sell the Saab.
Absolutely agree; with just a moderate amount of due diligence on the particular vehicle in question, one can find all kinds of $2000-5000 cars out there that have a whole lot of reasonably trouble free life left in them. There are some rules that make this easier:
1. Choose Panther platform cars. There’s a reason all the taxi companies use them.
2. In general, buy American. Depreciation is your friend in this market.
3. Go for Panther platform cars.
4. Avoid anything German.
5. One caveat about pre-1994 or so cars is the cost of dealing with an R-12 A/C system that has lost its cool.
6. Did I mention Panther platform cars? Like the ’92 Town Car I bought for $2700 in 2004, needing only a set of shocks, I kept it 4 years and then sold it to a friend who still drives it.
In this regard I don’t know what leads credit-challenged car buyers to put $2000-3000 down on a high-mileage Taurus or Saturn, and sign onto a high interest loan for another $7000 (total price approaching 2 times the NADA of the car), with monthly payments over $300 at high interest, when for the same cash outlay they could get a good car a couple of years older and have $300/month to put toward upkeep if they need it.
+1 for Panther cars. I bought a wonderful 2005 Crown Vic from a state auction for about $3500 a few months back. It’s roomy, handles surprisingly well, has very acceptable power, and most of all -feels nearly brand new. Steering is tight, brakes are great, good tires, alignment, etc.
As you can tell, I’m head-over heels in love with it which I credit to my childhood interest with my grandparent’s ’92 & ’95 Town Cars.
Panthers rock.
It’s the truth. I work at a quicklube center, and I get to see a fair representation of cars, day in and out.
The cars that come in with overall highest mileage aren’t Japanese, German, or Swedish. They are Fords. Explorers, mostly, in the 200-300k range. The panther body with the most is a ’93 Town Car with 406k at its last service. Sure the odd Toyota pickup comes in with 500k, and ONE guy has a 240DL with 300k(it idles like a can of rocks) but generally these are maintenance fanatics, not average joes.
Sure, other companies make good cars, but it would seem nobody keeps them or drives them enough to exploit this, except Ford owners.
I never thought I would like Fords, ever. Then I got one. An awful, neglected, a 200k 94 Taurus that had been in 5 major accidents as a beater….yet, the electrics worked, as did the air, no squeaks or rattles, and soooo comfortable to drive. Best 163 dollars I ever spent.
Repairing broken car air conditioning may actually be a fairly good DIY job if one is careful to keep air and moisture out of the system. I think mineral oil/R-12 systems have a longer life, but both old mineral oil/R-12 and early PAG oil/R-134a systems are due for compressor and dryer replacement sometime in their 2nd decade. Lots of unbolting and bolting, but not many special tools required for this step. Once the manual labor is done, you either pay someone else to pull a vacuum and recharge with refrigerant or get help from other DIYers. Successfully used a homemade vacuum pump built from a discarded freezer compressor and a borrowed manifold gauge set.
+1 for Panther Platform in any version EXCEPT for prior LEO vehicles. Please people, avoid those cars like the plague. All other Panther platform incarnations are a no-brainer. If you like RWD V8’s, that is.
@Mad: I would agree with most of your post, but I guess I had a bad Panther, and it turned me off forever from Fords in general.
I bought a 1991 Grand Marquis back in 2001 thinking this was a good buy, since this was a car I could work on myself, having grown up with these cars.
Wrong. I definitely worked on the car myself, quite often. The motor leaked oil incessantly, identifying and repairing all of the leaks took a solid two years to complete, and then the valve cover gaskets started leaking again! The trans shifted horribly, the power accessories died, those were not inexpensive to repair and rather time consuming to do so. I still have special “Ford” sockets that I only ever used on that car, one for the front brakes, another to remove/install a thermostat or something. It’s been so long, that I’m starting to forget what all I had to do on that car, but it was quite a bit. I have many more stories, but don’t want to regale you with them. I still have $75+ of tools that I will never use on another car, but I’m too cheap to throw away.
Long story short, I almost had more money wrapped up in three years on that car than I did my Mercury Topaz, but both were POS’s. I eventually gave it to a local charity that fixes cars up and sells them to folks at a discounted price. Much to my horror, a guy several blocks away bought my old GrandMa, I never dared asked him how it ran, as I was afraid he would strangle me!
I can only assume the newer ones are better than that generation of Panther. If anybody asks, I usually tell them a nice lightly used Buick will do fine as cheap used wheels.
Well, I guess that depends on where you live. Here, in Edmonton, not many cars make it to their teens. The vast majority of cars I see were made at least in the early 2000s. The climate can be tough on cars; a lot of new cars were bought during the decade’s oil boom. But bad driving habits and neglect are also a major contributor: do you really need to put it to the metal every time you take off? All in all, I wouldn’t consider a locally registered used car that is more than 5 years old.
Running an Aveo past 200K is like having beans, rice, and tap water for dinner every night. Why not spend a little more on something you actually enjoy (if you have the means)?
It is only money after all.
@John Horner: Right on.
I once bemoaned the increasing electronics on cars… but it’s actually pretty nice. No more distributor to open up and clean out… no finicky mechanical injection or fiddly carburetion… have a problem with your car? Scan it for codes… pop out one $50 sensor and pop a new one in. Finished. Aside from broken transmission parts from hard driving (drag racing is hell on synchros… no matter what year of car you’ve got…), I’ve had very few problems on my new cars that I can’t fix myself.
Exactly right Niky and John. A good scanner and All-Data DIY and I’m good to go!
“…have a problem with your car? Scan it for codes… pop out one $50 sensor and pop a new one in. Finished…”
Except when there is no CEL illuminated, or no code stored and yet the car runs poorly. Then what? Or you simply change the suspected sensor but the CEL remains on. Or the new part gets killed by some fault that took out the original? Sure, a simple swap may fix a good percentage of problems, but plenty of times not. Often, mechanical problems will manifest themselves with codes being set, but there is no electronic problem, only a mechanical one. The ability to use a ‘scope and produce waveforms of the various systems that you need to check and the knowledge of what proper outputs look like become critical for these difficult diagnostic jobs. And that is simply not within the ability of most DIY guys. So, to simplify modern vehicle repair as you have done is just not realistic.
Then learn how to use an oscilloscope. Or get on the internets and ask people in your car club what failure or combination of failures can produce the same symptoms.
Car’s PCV a problem area? It’s on the internet. Poor oil pump tolerances causing increased oil consumption? It’s on the internet. How-to’s for checking vacuum leaks? They’re on the internet.
If I’d had this much tech support at my fingertips back when I had my previous car, I probably wouldn’t have busted as many knuckles or chucked the vehicle entirely.
Yes, there are some problems that are difficult to diagnose. But I’ll take an occassionally wonky idle after 50,000 miles that can be fixed by replacing an electric motor over the pain of choking and retuning a carburetor every few thousand miles anyday, thank you.
“…But I’ll take an occassionally wonky idle after 50,000 miles that can be fixed by replacing an electric motor over the pain of choking and retuning a carburetor every few thousand miles anyday, thank you…”
Where did I say that I would like to see carb, points, or primative mechanical systems? One of main reasons cars (or at least engines) last as long as they do is because of the precision afforded by electronic feedback fuel control systems. I have no problem with that and I would never want to go back to the old days. As an electrical engineer, I appreciate what electronics can do for you. However, as good as forums and brand enthusiast sites are, there is a big difference between reading how-to and looking at that fat bundle of wires and trying to figure which wire the forum guy is talking about. Most DIY guys don’t know how to use a ‘scope, let alone own one. If you are at ease with all the required test equipment and have made the considerable investment, good for you. But to reduce diagnostics and modern car repair to code reading and parts swapping is just plain inaccurate. And like it or not, the ranks of the DIY has been dropping for years. BTW, I do own a ‘scope and I do know how to use it…
Good for you, because I don’t! Well… I understand how to read a scope, but I don’t have one of my own. Truth… the complication of modern electronic systems presents a higher hurdle for starting level DIYers, but people adapt… those who still want to get their hands dirty need to acquire a different set of skills (though encrypted systems like Nissan now uses are frustrations for everyone).
Those who don’t… they have to pay more for repairs, but those repairs come less often.
I bought my ’95 black LeBaron GTC convertible three years ago with 60k on the clock. Replaced a timing belt at 80k (and water pump). Change the earl every 3k. A few trips in for routine maintenance, and it runs as smooth as a cloud, at 104k.
I’ve bought used. I’ve bought new. I’ve never owned a car older than this one (that wasn’t one foot from the scrap yard). It has a home in my garage. Gets darn near 30 mpg. And, it’s paid for. I see no reason to shop around for something else. With routine maintenance, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to coax 200k out of it, even in the harsh Iowa climate. Maybe it will fall apart tomorrow, but you can’t take those three trouble-free years away.
Keep a stash of munny handy. Unless it has been corrected, all of them have a lurking fault that has nothing to do with the “Usual” Trans problems the A604 automatic suffers.
One of the Gearsets having to do with 3rd develops stress cracks and eventually breaks off its shaft! The problem was fixed in 1996.
The parts department guy rolled is eyes, looked at me and said “that was never a problem.” I said- “Yes it was, and it happened. I am not your piece of shit son in law, don’t talk to me like that.”
With that I plucked up a trans solenoid pack gasket for a friend’s dead Caravan(what else?)
I tell you this, as you still have time.
My GTC, also a 1995, a was a showroom perfect white one. It broke at 106k. I was very attached to that car.
I had 1990 LeBaron convertible with the A604. I bought it with 98,000 on the clock and sold it with 198,000 (actually it just crawled over the 199 mark). The early A604’s were a the real problem. By 1995 they had solved the biggest issues with them. Just make sure you use the right fluid (ATF+3 or ATF+4). The +3 was what the car required, +4 is what they make nowadays. The are backward compatible but not forward. So you can use +4 fluid in tranny requiring +3. If you use the wrong fluid (like many people did) it will kill it. Most A604’s did not self destruct. In actuality the Japanese motor in the LeBaron was more of a problem (badly designed valve guide seals that were later corrected).
My wife drives one of the aforementioned cars from the article — a 2000 Plymouth neon (first year POST head gasket issues). It had the tranny replaced at 75k (IIRC) prior to us taking ownership and the little 3 speed wonder has worked pretty flawlessly. Outside of wear parts (brakes, struts, tires, oil…I’m probably forgetting some), it really hasn’t had many problems. The trunk lock broke. We enter the trunk from the back seat. For a 2 person family with no child-seat this really doesn’t matter. > 50% of the time my wife drives alone & uses the back seat as the trunk. The outside drivers mirror adjustment thing no longer works. I think we had the door-handle fixed once IIRC…It eats a quart of oil every 1000 so we toss in 2-3 quarts between oil changes. We had a spark plug replaced once…
Power seats? Nothing to break as this is a low end car.
Power windows ? same
Heated seats ? same
AC? Still works. We had it recharged once.
Battery? Same battery that came with it at 125k in 2005. We are about to pass 189k.
Rust? Some on the lower part of one rear door. Otherwise rust-free.
It starts up even when its -10F out gets my wife to work and gets her home. She’s never been stranded.
Cars are getting more reliable, no doubt, at least initially.
I wonder about the newer ones’ ability to go 15 – 20 years, though, because they’re also becoming much less “maintainable.” Hidden PCV valves, spark plug replacements that first require the removal of the manifold, filters buried in transmissions that are also sealed “for life,” and so forth, all will necessarily lead people to provide less than “average” maintenance as the maintenance price approaches that of the value of the car. I think cars are approaching disposable status again, after only a few years of having long life expectancies.
If I had one wish it would be for a drain plug in new cars’ auto transmission torque converters, a common feature in older cars. It would be great to be able to change all the old transmission fluid at once along with the filter and maybe stretch the useful life of the second-most expensive part on today’s cars. I’d rather have that than Bluetooth…
Jaywalker, with an R drill bit and 1/8×27 NPT tap you could put that drain plug in your torque converter. I wouldn’t recommend it though :)
Oh my old Cadillac Deville’s. My pre-northstar beauties live on and their solid, if not quirky 4.9s 4t60e trannies. 121000 for the car, 150+ for the motor and tranny that came off my older totaled, and so dearly beloved gray 91 Deville. Yea, I must sound like a masochist, but hey, I can still outrun, out accelerate, and for most of the local ricers to bite my custom made dual exhaust. Amazing the kind of roaches the right kind of GM cars can be. I routinely see caddy’s like mine with the 4.5 and 4.9 hovering the 200k mark and still running on ebay, craig’s list, and down the street. Rust is what kills them here in the rust belt.
For all their two decades of decontenting, powertrains were the one thing GM got right. Of course there was my in-laws’ ’78 Grand Am whose metric tranny puked, and got replaced with a TH350. And don’t get me started on Cross-Fire Injection, V-8-6-4 or Dex-Cool…but “the right kind” of GM cars live on and on and on…
Anything with a 3.8L V6 also qualifies. Those engines will typically outlast the car they’re in and they don’t need much maintenance either. One currently sits in my 94 Eighty Eight with a recent 120k on the clock. Other than the need for a new AC compressor, it needs nothing but oil and fuel.
Some businesses are importing a lot of 15+ year old cars, trucks and vans from Japan. See ’em all over the place these days.
Cheap and durable cars don’t solve the global pollution issues and peak oil. Mass transit is inherently far more efficient.
As the owner of a 20 year-old car, I don’t see why even older cars can’t be kept in nice shape. If the engines are too “dirty”, just subsidize replacing the engines rather than offer incentives to scrap the cars.
As for the “economy” depending on car sales, part of the problem is that many valuable commodities are given no value by our economic system, and waste never creates wealth. If you agree that there’s more to life than operating cars, then the private car is a huge drain on North America’s wealth.
+1 for John Horner’s comment that the Internet makes it far easier to maintain cars. This includes sourcing affordable replacements for $500 proprietary headlight clusters.
“Mass transit is inherently far more efficient.”
^ I’m gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on this one. I commute from Aurora to Waukegan(Just outside Chicago)~3x week. I can get there and back for 15 bucks in gas and it takes a little over an hour each way -or- I can take the Metra and a bus or two and it costs ~25 bucks round trip and takes damn near 4 hours each way. Please explain to me the “inherent efficiency” of Metra. I think I speak for many(most?)people when I say I’d rather sit in my cockroach-all $900 worth of it-(1997 Sunfire Gt-just rolled 210k)and listen to wscr and drink my DD iced coffee while cruising up and down 294 at 70mph than sit on a stinky Metra for hours with stinky people eating stinky food.
I understand what you mean. What I meant was that the resources needed to move a person from one given point to another, using trains or even buses, is far less than what’s needed to do the same thing using cars. Similarly, bicycles are the most efficient means of transportation.
But this doesn’t mean you won’t get wet on a bicycle or have to wait an hour for a transit bus.
The solution is that if everyone spent half as much per year on transit as they do on their cars (roughly $10,000 per year, and ignoring externalities such as pollution), we could have such good transit systems they’d make much car use seem very unpleasant by comparison. But in my neck of the woods, we average only about $400 per person per year for transit. Transit doesn’t suck because of the underlying technology. It sucks because we don’t spend bugger-all on it. And WE are responsible because we ate up the car manufacturer’s advertising. Nobody was around to saturate our media with attractive imagery about using sleek fast effective transit systems.
So I get back around to saying that traveling by car is inherently inefficient and therefore wasteful, and ultimately waste does not make wealth.
My wife’s 2001 Malibu is just over 240k miles right now, and still going up about 35k a year.
It needed a head gasket twice in one year thanks to the first garage screwing up the repair, and the A/C might be finally dying(which is likely a simple fix), but it’s been a good car.. put new brakes on it every year and new tires every couple, and it keeps going. Wish the gas milage was better though.
In response to golden2husky;
It’s not just that some diagnostics are difficult, though that’s a good point. Some of us just reach a stage in life where we don’t feel like spending all day Saturday stooped over in the engine bay of a car.
I still do repairs on my Ranger, but I’ve decided not to do anything on my wife’s CR-V. We just take it to the dealer for it’s appointed maintenance. It’s costly, that’s for sure. It’s also done right (something I can’t always guarantee if I do it myself) and done in less than a day – so the car isn’t sitting idle because I didn’t have a tool and the parts store is closed.
My garage is free of 1 gallon plastic milk jugs filled with dirty oil/atf/coolant, etc.
And I don’t have to spend my Saturday under a car. Instead I can spend it on a ladder, putting on a new roof, or replacing soffit and fascia, or putting in a new door, or residing the garage ….. (will there ever be a free Saturday?)
@Dynamic: Yes, me too. At one time I loved playing driveway mechanic, but nowadays, it’s just a pain in the a$$. Well, in my case, a pain in the back.
Frankly, I just want to turn the freakin’ key and go. I have a good indy mechanic and I’m usually pretty good at diagnosing my own symptoms, so I don’t get too many surprises when I do have to take it in to him.
Of course, for the last 12 years, I’ve been dealing with two children and all the attendant stuff that goes along with it, recitals, sports events, field trips, Scouts, soccer, sleepovers, visits to Grandma, all that stuff…
Now that the younger is entering her senior year, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. However it IS the oncoming train, as my wife has suddenly decided *WE* (notice it’s *WE*, not her) should repaint the downstairs, re-do the landscaping, etc…
Maybe I’ll just put one of the cockroaches of the road up on some jackstands and slide underneath it for a little shut-eye. Just when I thought it was safe to go back into the water…
Happy 4th of July to everyone.