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Where is Lincoln on this list? You included the Hyundai Genesis on both this and the Large/Premium list so obviously a vehicle can straddle the categories.
The MKZ would, btw, take 5th place, with the MKS taking 9th, so it isn’t as if they were deleted for lack of sales. The MKS is every bit as much a luxury car as the DTS, and quite a bit more of one than the Genesis.
The Town Car should also be up there, it would be in 10th place.
LOL I don’t know how much Ford pays you, but you certainly EARN EVERY PENNY OF IT.
You’re more virulently pro-Ford than my xenophobic Ford fanboy Uncles are…and I own more Ford stock than they do!
#1 I think we can see that the breaking point for a luxury vehicle is between $45K and $60K.
#2 I think the only reason the Jag XJ didn’t sell better was because of the low availability right now as they are made in England and shipped over… http://www.epinions.com/content_512392400516
#3 i don’t consider the Lincoln Town Car or the MKZ to be true luxury cars. They have a luxury price…but the overall cars are ho hum.
The MKS is only better because of the amount of gadgets. If not for all that available stuff, the MKS without Ecoboost would probably lose to a Maxima. In fact, the Infiniti M37, especially at its price, is a better made car than the MKS is. http://www.epinions.com/content_510359473796
I vaguely remember the deVille selling over 100,000 units a year during the 90’s, so that’s a lot of market share Cadillac has given up.
Compared to sales of the fullsize 7, A8, LS, and S, I’d almost consider the DTS sales to be a success. However, I’m betting they’re heavily subsidized to move the outdated metal, so I doubt they’re that profitable.
I don’t think it’s fanboyish to ask why a legitimate player in this field is not being represented.
As I said, the criteria can’t be ‘cars that aren’t on other lists’ because the Genesis is on other lists. It can’t be ‘no FWD cars’ because the DTS, RL, and S80 are on the list. The MKS is bigger than an E-class, XF, A6, STS, and others here, so size isn’t keeping it off. Brand name snobbery doesn’t apply either because Hyundai, Acura, and Volvo are all represented. Finally, sales numbers wouldn’t work to exclude it either as it would be more than halfway up the list, so where is the MKS?
DTS sales I don’t think are subsidized to any extent, the leasing definitely isn’t. When my mother wanted to lease a new DTS two months ago her dealer told her it would cost twice as much a month as her current DTS did. From $600 to $1,200 and that was at the GM supplier price level. Although she doesn’t like it as well as her DTS she’s driving a new Lexus ES 350. She testdrove the CTS but liked the Lexus better. She had driven deVilles and DTS’s for decades. Nice job GM.
Lincoln should be on this list (even though I don’t like any of their current models).
The Lexus ES 350 should be on this list too if the CTS is.
WTF, Ed? So you unilaterally decided to demote Lincoln out of the luxury car ranks, but promote a freakin’ Hyundai?
Please . . . enlighten us with your rationale. Why are MKS and Towncar excluded from this list?
Actually the MKZ should be on this list too if the CTS is on it.
MKS and Towncar numbers are in the Large/Premium segment… but for comparison, the MKS sold 1,029 in June, 7,649 in the first half of 2010. Towncar sold 1,010 in June, and 6,491 in the first half of 2010. That puts them both about on-par with the S-Class and 7-Series in terms of volume.
I’ll admit that at least the MKS should probably have been included in this segment… but my stock response is that segment analysis is, by definition, an inexact art. Find me the flawless segment, and I’ll be your friend for life. I was not trying to make some kind of point about Lincoln’s worth as a Luxury (rather than “Premium”) brand… but I personally consider the big Lincolns more fitting with the high end of the “Premium” market (price-wise) than the low end of the “Luxury” market. Besides, the “Premium/Large” segment included vehicles like the 3-Series and its competition… and who cross-shops an MKS with a 3-Series? Once again, we’re dealing with an imperfect science… and I’m about to abandon the computer for a long weekend, so it’s going to stay imperfect for now.
In any case, the numbers are there and you’re free to come to your own conclusions.
“Where is Lincoln on this list?”
The list is of LUXURY makes…not near luxury makes, or almost luxury, or half-hearted rebadges that are overpriced and under-delivering.
Ed,
That was a weak attempt to explain the MKS not being on this list.
You (or who ever designed the list) add the Volvo, GS, STS and A6, cars that compete directly with the MKS.
I guess I am confused as to the the list altogether.
If it can’t be understood or justified, why is it on TTAC?
It becomes meaningless.
Who designed it?
If not you, then why even provide it.
Just list car sales.
oh, poor little RL. I’m relying on those aweful sales to make you affordable in 4 or 5 years as a used buy.
At least they’re on the list.
Unlike Lincoln.
But then, we don’t count the Buick LaCrosse either, so that’s OK.
But really, Buick, Acura, and Lincoln belong in the “near-Luxury” / “low-buck lux” category.
I’m surprised the E-Class outsells everything else by such a large margin.
I’m not suprised the E-class outsells everyone by such a large margin at all. http://www.epinions.com/content_474159746692
#1 ITS A NEW MODEL.
#2 For the money, you get almost every gadget the S-class has at a cost almost $30,000 cheaper (if not more – depending on equipment)
#3 Regardless what you hear the pros say, the steering of the E-class is NOT TERRIBLE. No its not as communicative as a BMW, but people who buy a Benz aren’t buying BMW’s…they are buying E-CLASSES.
The E-class looks good, drives great and compared to my S550, its a far better value. Not as big a car, not as fuel thirsty and not as gaudy as the Sclass.
I do wish the E350 had as much interior fashion as the new M37, but nothing’s perfect.
Kinda shocking that the CTS is #2.
CTS offers plenty of luxury and style for a relatively low price. $37,000 up to $60,000+ for the CTS-V.
Just wait till the CTS Coupes start moving.
http://www.epinions.com/content_515761540740
So, the Genesis sales include the 20K 4cyl LEGO plastics interior Coupe. Does TTAC really consider that Luxury?
excellent observation. I don’t consider anything Hyundai makes to be “luxury” either. True Luxury carries a name badge that poorer people can’t afford.
In which case, that means Mercedes isn’t a true luxury brand, either. Sorry, but the days of only the rich being able to afford a Mercedes are long gone. Lots of middle income and upper-middle income people drive C- and E-Classes, thanks to generous lease deals.
That’s also what some people said about the original Lexus LS400. As it turns out, they were wrong.
carguy
what was wrong?
That Lexuses were safe? :P
“excellent observation. I don’t consider anything Hyundai makes to be “luxury” either. True Luxury carries a name badge that poorer people can’t afford.”
@bigtruckseries
I guess that means anything Mercedes makes isn’t “luxury” either considering that Mercedes makes the econobox A Class and B Class (the B Class is sold in Canada); and that the best selling E Class in Europe are sold w/ cloth or pleather seats and have rather anemic engines (aside from being one of the most popular livery/taxi vehicles in Europe); also, the Mercedes badge is affixed across many commercial grade TRUCKS across Europe.
And for that matter, I guess the Toyota Crown Majesta isn’t a luxury vehicle (despite it being positioned in Japan as an S Class competitor) either since it carries the wrong badge, as well as the the 1st 2 generations of the Lexus LS (since it was badged as a lowly Toyota Celsior in Japan).
I guess the Nissan President and Cima aren’t luxury vehicles (one previously sold here as the Infiniti Q) either, nor the Toyota Century – the FLAGSHIP of the Toyota/Lexus fleet and the only Toyota/Lexus model good enough for the royal family of Japan.
The USDM Acura TSX is a rebadged JDM/EU Accord, the Acura CSX (Canada) is basically a JDM Civic, the Infiniti G37 is basically the Nissan Skyline; the Lexus ES for a long time was basically a reskinned Camry; the Lexus LX is basically a reskinned Toyota Land Cruiser; etc.
And let’s not forget the BMW Isetta – a cheap (I mean really, really cheap) 3 or 4 wheeler bubble car that basically saved BMW from financial ruin back in the day.
And yes, the Genesis coupe is NOT a luxury vehicle; altho the 2G coupe reportedly is going upmarket to compete against the likes of the G37.
bd2
YOU OWE ME $400 for a new LCD Monitor because when you said the “toyota majesta was an S-class competitor”, MILK BLEW OUT OF MY NOSE AND MOUTH AS I CONVULSED in LAUGHTER.
The Majesta looks like GARBAGE.
…and your argument holds NO WATER.
I said “poorer people can’t afford it”.
Show me breakdown of the numbers of “working poor” worldwide and then show me how many of them OWN A MERCEDES BENZ.
and not some used, beat up Benz from 5 years or more ago… A NEW MODEL.
But I guarrantee many of them own HYUNDAI’s !!!
@bts
LMAO!!
Can’t believe you are actually using a car’s aesthetics/design as the basis for your argument (btw, the Crown Majesta is more bland like most of Toyota/Lexus’ lineup than really ugly).
Many people find the E Class, Bangle 7 Series and the new XJ to be aesthetically-challenged – that doesn’t make them any less luxury sedans.
Yeah, my argument holds “no water.”
From egmcartech…
http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/03/27/for-japan-only-2009-toyota-crown-majesta-unveiled/
“Toyota has launched the fifth-generation version of its Crown Majesta. What is the Crown Majesta and why have you never heard of it. Well, for one the Crown Majesta is only sold in Toyota’s home-market of Japan. The premium-LUXURY car is a full-size sedan similar to the BMW 7-Series and the Mercedes-Benz S-Class.
Toyota says it is hoping to sell 1,000 units of the 2009 Crown Majesta in Japan with prices starting at ¥6,100,000 ($62,289 USD).”
And not only that, when Toyota also had the Celsior sedan (aka LS400 and LS430), the Majesta Crown was actually regarded as being in a HIGHER classification than the Celsior/LS, but still lower than the limo-class Toyota Century.
As for Mercedes – the A and B Classes are basically economy models in Europe; and livery/taxi companies seem to have no problem filling their fleets w/ E Classes.
And as I had already stated, the BMW Isetta was about as cheap as one could get w/ an automobile.
Again, many lower income people own and have owned Toyotas – but that still doesn’t take away from the fact that the Toyota Crown models being luxury sedans, much less the Toyota Century which is at a class HIGHER than the Mercedes S Class/BMW 7 Series.
Same goes for the Nissan President and Cima.
Class over.
Cadillac CTS is a player!
Good for the CTS (sales should only increase w/ the coupe hitting dealer lots, joining the estate) – but keep in mind that the CTS is a bit of a “tweener” – originally an entry-lux level competitor (3 Series, C Class), albeit on the larger side a la the Infiniti G35/37.
Cadillac is trying to reposition the CTS as a mid-size luxury competitor, but that will mean the next-gen CTS will have to get bigger (the tiny rear seat leg-room kills the CTS).
Hyundai are certainly making a splash with the Genesis.
So do you consider the 20K Genesis 4cyl to be a luxury car?
Invisible: The coupe is counted with the sedan but makes up a small portion of the total sales. However, the Genesis sedan is a luxury vehicle and, like the Lexus LS400 was in the 90s, is a new player in the market that competitors ignore at their peril.
A splash? More like a thud. I have seen exactly one in the wild in the city of Chicago.
Massive fail, especially given that Hyundai refuses to say how many of the sedan have been sold.
Seems that they are suffering from VW-like delusions of grandeur.
So does anybody know how the current STS is selling compared to the FWD one it replaced? I’ve only seen 1 STS in this entire city of 20,000 with one Cadillac dealer. CTS on the other hand, I see one at every stoplight. All most as ubiquitous as Impalas it seems like sometimes.
I’ve found there’s more STS’s around than you’d think, but they’re not easy to pick out against the CTS at a distance, especually since the CTS’s redesign.
Personally, I quite like the STS. Mind you, I like the Lexus GS and both the first and second-generation Infinti Ms, so my opinion’s not worth much, commercially.
The HS shouldn’t be on this list..It is by no stretch of the imagination. I have sat in one and drive it briefly..No better than any modern Toy/Honda
Hi Edward,
Can you please explain why the DTS with 1,591 monthly and 9,014 year to date ranks lower on your chart than the S Class with 1,549 and 6,405 year to date?
Is this what’s called the perception gap?
Lexus has really lost the plot, eh? The S80 is outselling Lexus’ flagship LS?????
Cadillac has lost the plot as well. The CTS is doing ok, but the STS (Seville) and DTS (Deville) have gotten lost in the weeds.
The S80 is heavily, heavily discounted. The LS is not. It’s selling more or less in the same range as the 7-Series and S-Class, which is it’s actual competition.
What’s shameful is the GS. I like the car a lot, but I’ll admit that it’s not well-sorted for the market, and the sales (versus the 5/7/A6) show it.
Another example of “lost the plot” (or perhaps, “never picked up the plot”) is the Audi A8. Ouch.
“The CTS is doing ok, but the STS (Seville) and DTS (Deville) have gotten lost in the weeds.”
Both STS and DTS are headed for redesign/refresh/replace.