Raymond writes:
I have been trying to find a site that finds the right car/truck./CUV based on a needs checklist. I have had no luck finding this. The option I am most looking for is flat folding front passenger seat in a wagon type vehicle. I sometimes deliver furniture and draperies in my interior design business but mostly it is my daily driver. My next car needs to hold a 6′ ladder, too.
My Vue has been a great car for work, recreation and as a daily driver, but it is getting old. I ordered my Vue with the CVT transmission after reading that the CVT was the next best thing. I have since heard and read the the discontinued GM CVT was very problematic. The CVT has recently started slipping and my 100K warranty has expired.
I really hate car shopping (which may be why I bought 3 Saturns over the last 15 years – easy shopping/ordering/buying). I stopped at a Kia dealer close to my home and was hounded from the minute I got out of my car. Kia is now off my list for that (and none of their vehicles offer flat fold front passenger seats).
Thank you!
Steve Answers:
More than welcome Raymond. Before you throw your money into a $20,000+ rathole, I’ll let you in on a secret.
The CVT on that Vue may not be nearly as expensive as you think. GM has fessed up to the fact that this part is defective and has at least offered some form of compensation. This is more than what I can say for those unfortunate souls that bought a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid CVT. Those poor folks get to see Insight owners enjoy 150k warranties for the same defective CVT’s while the Civic faithful get the proverbial shaft. Speaking of which..,
I would first contact GM and figure out my options. Be nice. Be aggressive. Be persistent. Be creative. But most of all be a pest. I would figure out the best deal that can be made before going forward with any decision.
If you decide to go near-new… I would opt for the discountus maximus! A minivan that is being discontinued and has a good reliability record. My number one would be a two year old Hyundai Entourage with 30k. But those aren’t the end all, cure all for a van. Not even close.
In fact, minivans are practically interchangeable when it comes to ride and comfort. They all do it well these days. I personally like the last year of the Chrysler minivans (2007), the unpopular last gen Fords (insanely cheap at the auctions), and even the Entourage’s twin sister Kia Sedona. The Sienna and Odyssey have unimpressive reliability so I would opt for a steeply discount competitor that can arguably offer better reliability.
Sajeev Answers:
Raymond, you’re a loyal Saturn buyer for all the right reasons. Your personification of brand loyalty is why TTAC (incessantly) points out the value of branding. That said, too bad about Saturn.
Then again, as a typical cunjoos Indian, Saturn’s lack of value from a product and pricing standpoint means you can do better. But you’re flying solo, and no one-stop shopping website helps you find a fold-flat front seat. Edmunds.com covers granular details like rear seat armrests, but your needs are only important to you. That’s life. And even if Edmunds had you covered, odds are the check boxes will say “being researched” for the next 12 months.
It’s time to get the answers via dealership visits. And be a tough guy with the sales people: go ahead and say, “I’m gone if you don’t have a wagon/CUV with a fold flat front seat.”
The Truth hurts. That said, this is a moot point. I’m with Steve: your business demands a Minivan. Pick up a Saturn Relay for almost nothing and enjoy the last remnants of the brand that once treated you so well.
If you don’t want a minivan (the most practical choice) then maybe a 2005 and up Nissan Xterra would work. Not terribly expensive, front seat folds flat (as do back seats), and a roof rack for the ladder if you need to put it up there. There are aftermarket attachments for the roof rack to hold a ladder if you want to invest some money. Gas mileage is a little over 20mpg in mixed driving. Good acceleration and pretty good build quality. Other than that, not sure many things outside minivans with flat folding front seats.
I cant believe you used cunjoos. This post will be saved forever lol.
I Googled cunjoos and this is now the first hit. Wow.
Not to toot my own horn, but I rule. :)
As much as it makes me want to vomit it sounds like a Dodge Journey would fulfill your needs in the size and flexibility departments. It has a fold flat passenger seat in the SXT and I’m sure you could steal one right now. Questionable reliability might make good use of the 5/100 powertrain but you could do worse… maybe. At the very least it’s worth a test drive so you can find out if the vehicle could work for you and exactly how motivated dealers are to move in stock units.
Geez, don’t oversell it or anything.
No it’s NOT worth a test drive. That thing makes a Minivan look like an AMG Benz.
Ha. They’re not terrible, they’re just blase… and hit or miss when it comes to reliability. It’s a very functional vehicle that has a decent amount of space and features considering the price point. Reasonable fuel economy for its ability, “good looking” in a boring, homely, pseudo “soulful” sort of way and you can probably steal them right now. I don’t care for the vehicle but I’m not naive enough to think that swapped, boosted, gutted and caged eg hatchbacks or rebadged accords are the only two acceptable vehicles in the world. I would never buy one but it is a modern vehicle that, regardless of where it stands in comparison reliability wise to current offerings, is head and shoulders above most vehicles available fifteen years ago in most objective categories. Dude has some unique needs he needs satisfied by an inexpensive, functional vehicle and I can’t think of any sensible offering in the almost new/new category in the 20k ballpark that will give him the features and capabilities the Journey will.
they drove a first gen vue… a Journey is certainly no worse than that.
Lightly used they are also an absolute steal and versatile.
Ditto a PT cruiser as well… reliable and dirt cheap. Other than an element where can you find a small car that has flip foldable and removeable seats.
““good looking” in a boring, homely, pseudo “soulful” sort of way”
You write this after looking at the picture of the Vue above? The Journey is much more modern looking than that. The reliability is decent (Chrysler’s reliability has been on the upswing but don’t tell anybody here that) and with discounts you might be able to swing a V6 model with the 6 speed transmission for what you would pay for a Honda 4 cylinder.
You write this after looking at the picture of the Vue above? The Journey is much more modern looking than that. The reliability is decent (Chrysler’s reliability has been on the upswing but don’t tell anybody here that) and with discounts you might be able to swing a V6 model with the 6 speed transmission for what you would pay for a Honda 4 cylinder.
IMO the Journey is just doing an impression of a good looking car, something about it just doesn’t work. Big wheels, big fender flares, aggressive grille… these things usually add up to a good looking vehicle. In this case it just doesn’t do it for me.
As far as reliability goes I (obviously) haven’t had an ownership experience with the vehicle but 09 versions score very poorly on truedelta. I think the strength of the Journey is in the price point and the functionality of its interior and nothing more. And that’s okay.
Honda Element – it opens up to give you a huge cavernous storage space and seats fold up to the side and completely out of the way (though they do create blind spots). No CVT in them just a good ole 4 speed automatic with the 2.4 liter i-vtec motor. Mid 20’s mpg and it gets up to speed decently with good handling.
If not then an Scion Xb which will get you good mileage though I doubt a 6′ ladder will fit inside of it without removing the front at. There is also the a post rental fleet Caravans which are a dime a dozen and pretty reliable for their price.
2nd vote for an Element. Nothing like a hose-out interior
Element’s definitely worth a look. Your ladder will fit, drives nice, almost 30 mpg highway if you keep your speed down. And until 2010 you could get a 5-speed, if that matters. But you’d probably get a better deal on a minivan.
Yup. Seems like I keep recommending the Element for different things, but that’s because it’s so useful. If you’re looking for a long, flat surface, the seats all fold down into a bed. The back seats fold up the the sides or come all the way out in about 30 seconds each. I’ve hauled a metric crapload of stuff in mine – far more than you would expect from the exterior dimensions. 6 ft ladder? No problem. 20-ft extension ladder? you’ll need a bunjee cord to hold the gate shut, but it won’t stick out too far. I haul a 32 ft extension ladder in mine fairly regularly. I recline the front passenger seat all the way, put one end up on the dash, and secure the other end with a couple of bunjee cords. Couches, dressers, and other big things fit just fine too.
But let’s get one thing straight: DON’T EVER HOSE IT OUT! That’s a big, expensive myth and will cause a lot of problems down the road. Sweep it out, use a leaf blower, mop it if you want, but it’s not set up to drain gallons of water and the mold and rust will forever taunt you if spray it with a hose.
You can’t hose out an Element – it’s a myth. IIRC Honda never said you could or should do it…so don’t do it. You can blow it out with a leaf blower (I’ve done that before) and wipe it down with a wet rag.
I don’t know of anyone getting 30mpg even in the 2wd model…They aren’t all that light weight and with a bread box shape not very slippery in drag. I used to own one and loved it but needed something that could tow 6k lbs which pretty much eliminated it from consideration.
The Element is pretty nice. I don’t see why so many people buy CR-Vs if they have to have a small Honda crossover given how well packaged the Element is. The interior is definitely designed to be rugged over plush, but they are comfortable enough, not irritatingly slow, and get decent gas mileage.
Mine’s an AWD 5-speed and I can get 27-28 mpg at 60-65 mph running 10% ethanol. I expect I could just scrape 30 on pure gas, if I could find it. The thing is a brick, so mpg drops rapidly the faster you go.
I’m gonna vote for a Prius. Fold-flat front seat, good cargo room, Saturn-like buyer demographic, and good economy. Free financing and a $22k transaction price thanks to Pedalgate.
I just threw up in my mouth. A Prius? Really?
All good suggestions, and if I owned a six foot ladder to practice with I’d go check if It will fit in my suggestion.
Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix first gen. Good depreciation, available AWD, solid 34mpg in the FWD version. So lightweight if you got stuck in the snow, someone could push you out. Front seat folds flat and even has built in power outlet in the dash for your laptop or what not.
Wasn’t the engine/trans in the 04-05 Vue a Honda 3.5L V6? What year/engine came with a CVT?
Redline version only got the Honda V-6.
No, I’ve sold non-redline 04-05 Vues with the Honda V6. The Redline came with that engine as well, but only in FWD and with bigger wheels and ground effects, etc.
The 4 cyl models of 04-05 were a GM 2.2L I think, and were available with AWD, though I haven’t seen many of them. Usually the 4 cyl models were FWD, for a lower sale price, making them perfect for bad-credit financing deals.
How about another Vue on the used market? Get the 5-speed manual 4 cylinder. You will find low mileage ones for dirrrrrt cheap…I lost an eBay bid last year on one that had 57k miles, an 05′ I think, good shape, went for $5k.
I always thought the original Vue (like the image above) was a unique and attractive design. Too bad the interior materials were so horrendously cheap
Or the front wheel could break off
http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/gm/saturn_vue.htm
I drive a 2.2 4 cylinder Vue with the 5-speed trans. I really like it (save for the cheep interior). This is the first American car I’ve owned. I get 24-26 MPG around town and 30 on the interstate!! (if you keep the cruse on at 70). It isn’t an absolute thrill to drive and it doesn’t have that Japanese fit, feel, and finish but it’s bigger than a RAV4 or a CRV and is ever bit as competent and enjoyable to use.
As long as you don’t feel like a clown driving it, check out a lightly used PT Cruiser. Lots of them coming out of rental fleets. Some of them have the front fold down seat. A very practical car to carry stuff. Should fit that ladder too.
Subaru Impreza.
The Ford Flex would be a great choice. It has tons of space and all of the seats (including the front passenger) fold flat. If you are looking to save some money go for a lightly used Taurus X, it has the same benefits and can be had at a great price.
I will second the recommendation for the Taurus X or Flex. And I’m not a Ford salesman.
We (reluctantly) purchased our first American car (Taurus X) because its content, safety ratings and space couldn’t be matched by other CUVs. It has proven to be 100% reliable in its first year in our family. The T-X and Flex have nearly identical interior layouts, so the choice between the two comes down to style. The T-X is conservative and somewhat goofy looking. The Flex is controversial; I love how it looks. My wife hated it – so we got the T-X. Naturally.
The only other significant difference is in interior material quality. The T-X has a healthy amount of rock hard, shiny plastic and some fit and finish issues. The Flex is better in that regard.
For the original poster’s needs, the fold-flat seats open up a ton of room in these spacious cars.
A Chevrolet Suburban sounds ideal for your needs. Make sure you order the big V-8, and the towing package.
I know it’s fashionable to bash the PT Cruiser these days, but the interior is completely foldable, the seats easily removable, and mine has been 100% reliable for 112K miles and counting. Plus they’re very cheap to buy. A year or so ago I heard them advertising them for $9998 on the radio. My ’01 Limited has good quality interior materials, but the newer ones seem cheaper inside. I don’t know what year the transition was made. Heck, I don’t know if they still make this car, even.
If you are willing to go used, the Malibu Maxx has a fold flat seat. With the back seats folded down as well, you can load an awful lot of stuff into it, including your ladder. They weren’t wildly popular, so you can get a good deal on one with reasonable miles.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
When the need for loading long items and a fold down front seat came up, my first thought was the Malibu Maxx. All of the seats fold down, the interior is very durable, and with the hatch, there isn’t much you can’t load easily in there. We had one on lease for a while, but gave it back to GM, now I’m sorry I did.
In the average week, we could carry my drum kit to gigs, my kids and friends and gear to all of our soccer games (and occasionally sleep in the thing, too!), lots of stuff from Home Depot, etc…
The other cars I would suggest looking at are a PT Cruiser, a HHR, or depending upon your budget the previous generation Equinox, which shares many of the same interior features as the Maxx.
A good used Taurus X/Freestyle (the name was changed to incriminate the innocent) can be a real sleeper deal. Stay away from the CVT versions though :).
The Freestyle was CVT only.
I’m pretty sure it’s a CVT with AWD only. 6-speed slushbox otherwise.
The Five Hundred/Montego did the CVT=AWD, 6A=FWD split, but I think the Freestyle was CVT no matter what.
Both Edmunds and MSN show the Freestyle as a CVT only, and I’ve personally never seen one with a 6-speed.
The CVT has the reputation of being more trouble free than the 6spd Aisin that was offered at the same time in the sedan models. My 05 Five Hundred CVT hasn’t had a problem except for a RPM wobble that a PCM reflash cured soon after new. I wouldn’t be scared of a Ford D3 CVT unless it had a clicky-clicky-clicky at idle.
From what I read, Ford specified Audi design for CVT – with metal band. Have not heard of many Audi CVT failures.
Sajeev –
All Freestyles had the CVT, regardless of drivetrain. The 6spd auto debuted with the Taurus X in ’08.
The biggest reason to take the Taurus X over the Freestyle is the engine. The old version of the 3.0 Duratec used in the Freestyle is reliable, but doesn’t have a ton of power to move that much vehicle. Going with the much more modern 3.5 liter in the Taurus X will give you a smoother, more powerful, and more enjoyable engine. Plus, with a Taurus X, you can find one with Sync, which is a great productivity tool for the on-the-go business owner.
I thought I saw a 6-spd Freestyle like I did the 500/Montego, but I guess not. You guys aren’t the B&B for no reason!
I know somebody who has a 2005 Freestyle. And, yes, he has had to have the CVT transmission replaced (out of warranty at significant cost (like four grand or something)).
I know I will get flamed and dissed until the proverbial bovines return to their domiciles for this….but….the MOST FLEXIBLE INTERIOR EVER.
One word……
AZTEK!
The Aztek was generally well regarded for its useful interior and innovative features. It was the styling that most people couldn’t get over.
I’ve read that the Aztek drivetrains had serious issues. But as the Edsel of the New Millennium (TM), it would be a so-uncool-it’s-cool choice.
But the Aztec’s powertrain was a 3.4ltr V6 and a four speed auto. A very similar powertrain was used in base model Impalas from 2000 to 2005 so parts should be cheap, save specific exterior/interior parts.
The Aztek was built on the GM “U” minivan platform, one of the worst platforms in modern GM history.
I had two Azteks (sequentially, not simultaneously) and the passenger front seat does not fold down. Otherwise, it has an incredibly useful interior. I liked the size of the shorty U-van, great for parking in the city, but not so small that you couldn’t get in and out of easily. The gas mileage was pretty good for something that tall. If you were OK with the styling, then better yet. With the split hatchback, it was a pain sometimes to reach in get something out of the back, most often had to open the bottom half to get stuff out. If it came with the slide out tray in the back, it wasn’t so bad. But sometimes, cargo loading was not the easiest thing to do.
The downsides are pretty steep. This car came with the Chinese 3.4 V6 which was not known for reliability (gasket issues), the a/c condenser was in a bad position and could be easily damaged by road debris, plus it wasn’t a very robust design either. I replaced two of them on one of my ‘Teks, thankfully, I had purchased the extended warranty. It was worth every penny. These problems, along with the wheel bearing issues and the deplorable U-van crash test results, I’m reluctant to recommend to anybody.
We loved ours, but the negatives outweighed the positives. The Malibu Maxx that replaced the last Aztek was a huge leap forward, in just about every aspect. If I could find an Aztek with very few options and the head gasket and wheel bearing issues resolved, I would buy one for me, maybe. I think I’d rather buy a Maxx, though.
For maximum utility at low operating expense, the Transit Connect seems worth a look. Ford says the cargo area is 74 inches long. Even better, it’s tall! MulloNodo, did you think the Connect would be too truck-ish for our Vue owner?
The transit is nice for a commercial vehicle, but I would shy away from recommending it to anyone for anything other than commercial purposes. The interior is all hard plastic and bare metal, and the rear leaf springs, while giving it a nice payload, don’t give it the most comfortable ride. It probably rides and drives better than any other commercial van on the market, but that is still a ways away from what most people expect in a personal daily driver.
How about a used Dodge Magnum? Couldn’t confirm that the front seat back will tip forward enough for the ladder. A Magnum can haul long cargo or haul people in relative comfort.
A Magnum I had rented didn’t have all that much space inside. It looked big on the outside but was quite small inside and the windows were so small (to give it cool looks I guess) it was hard to see out of. There is little vertical room in the Magnum even with the seats folded down.
To Steve’s reply…please don’t lump the Sienna in with the Odyssey. If the Entourage comes close (hard to tell, nobody bought ’em), I’ll eat my hat. I’m sure it wins as far as having the lowest auction price, but I do not get the impression our loyal reader is committed to buying used – in which case depreciation is a potential negative.
http://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability.php
First gen vibe or matrix or the newer one for more safety feature.(abs, 4 disk brake, esp, 6 airbags, onstar) The 2009 vibe front seat doesn’t fold flat; but it recline fully so it work just as well. I use that car to haul lots of stuff! (8′ foot Lumber, brand new dishwasher, bike…). The first gen has an openable window on the hatch and a roof rack…i would go first gen…i also always like the vue!
“The Sienna and Odyssey have unimpressive reliability so I would opt for a steeply discount competitor that can arguably offer better reliability.”
Citation needed with regards to competitors, particularly Korean competitors offering better reliability. They are arguably the worst in terms of reliability as far as minivans go. The 2007 Chryslers are OK but that’s about it for the American vans. See TueDelta above.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/type/2007/minivanvan/midsize/index.html?typeindex=T
vs.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/type/2007/minivanvan/large/index.html?typeindex=T
Throw in Honda’s terrible transmission issues, the Sienna’s tire and drivetrain issues, and the fact that the competition can be had about 5k less.
Satisfaction ratings are fairly even across the proverbial board. So why not save enough for a seven week road trip.
To Truckducken’s earlier point, and quite contradictory to Steve’s recommendations, truedelta.com information on Sienna, Odyssey, and Caravan reliability seems to indicate that the Sienna is the most reliable, then the Odyssey, then the Caravan, with what little data available showing the Hyundai nastily cleaning up the rear of the pack with the 2008 version earning a “most” repaired distinction.
Regarding Steve’s comment
“The Sienna and Odyssey have unimpressive reliability so I would opt for a steeply discount competitor that can arguably offer better reliability.”
Again using http://www.truedelta.com data, if you average the 2005-2008 model years “successful repair trips per 100” metric where a higher number= worse, Toyota’s gas pedal is jammed at reliable, with a predictable pecking order in its tracks:
Sienna: 27.5
Odyssy: 41.75
Caravan: 74.75
Entourage: 112(!)(***)
In other words, Steve, what are you basing your reliability remarks on?
I still don’t get all the hating on Minivans. So much bandwagoneering. I understand if its between a sports car and a minivan, but once you’ve thrown driving fun off the table (Matrix? Prius? Saturn F’ing VIEW?) really, why the hell not?
You’re not having fun driving a view, so why not grow a pair and not give a s___t about what all the sheeple, scared-into-their “ooh, I’m rugged”/fauxsurvivalist AWD-SUVs think of minivans? They’ll be the snarky conformist cowards rolling into the median in a snowstorm, and you’ll be the safe as hell individualist driving past with blizzacks on your van. ****
A big, comfy, reliable, 5 star safe, low 20’s MPG, 240-270HP with 140+ cubic feet of dry/locked storage space and 2 sliding doors and a hatch to get at it, and nobody can see past the estrogen/vasectomy barrier to the sunshine of supremely useful Minivan ownership. BAH!
***(so few made/bought/reported to T.D good data unavailable. Does this sound like a good idea from a “parts available” perspective in 5 years)
**** Yes, we all know some people need AWD vehicles for gen-u-wine offroadin’, etc. For the other 99% of us, not so much. For those afeared of snow, (although heavy FWD vehicles with blizzaks, and all the nannies are very good in snow) they do make an AWD Sienna.
Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe were the first cars I thought of when I read “fold-down front passenger seat.” But there are other good options if that doesn’t float your boat.
-Honda Element: an old design but still a useful one. Compared to most other current designs on the market it’s quite old, but that also means a higher likelihood of lower prices even when new.
-Scion xB: First gen is roomy but the bloated second-gen is absolutely cavernous; I could see furniture-hauling in that thing for sure.
-Nissan Cube: I think it’s smaller than the current xB but bigger than the old one. Worth a look, but it’s a new model so good luck finding a significantly lower price on the used market.
-Minivan: an obvious choice for good reasons, the Sienna or Odyssey will serve you best here (though going by fellswoop’s post the Sienna would be even more best).
How about an MPV like the Mazda 5?
I’d personally go for the Patriot over the Journey or PT Cruiser.
However, my first choice in your situation would go to the Torrent GXP or Equinox Sport.
Check out a used Honda Element, the front seat can fold down flat, the rear seats can be folded down, folded up against the inside of the passenger compartment or removed. It has a lot of usable interior space and the interior is very easy to clean out. I use mine to carry my Newfie(Newfoundland to you) to water trials and other events. They’re also quite reliable, I’ve got 110K on my 2004 with very few problems.
1994-1996 B-body/Caprice/Roadmaster station wagon, best haulers ever FTW.
+1! Forgot about those….as a VUE owner, he’s not GM averse, and these do rule…
If you don’t need four seats, get a Ford Ranger. OK, it’s not a wagon, but it can do a passable imitation of one if you add a shell.
I can’t believe all these replies and no one else has recommended the Chevy HHR. I think it fits your needs perfectly, either in regular format or the panel van. Front seats fold flat, you can fit a 6 ft ladder in there. I know some people think it is unattractive, but that’s only up to you to decide. I’ve also read that it is underpowered, but you can get the SS version. You can definitely find them used for a reasonably price and they return much better fuel economy than the PT Cruiser. So that is my number 1 recommendation.
I also agree with other posters who have suggested the Ford Taurus X/Ford Freestyle, and I have no problem with the Honda Element others have suggested. But don’t overlook the HHR
I went from a VUE to a Relay, and have been miserable ever since. The VUE was cool, the Relay isn’t. The VUE was a real Saturn with non-dent exterior, the Relay is just a Chevy with a Volvo front end. The VUE was reliable, the Relay isn’t. The VUE was fun to drive, the Relay isn’t.
Going from the VUE to the Relay even made my wife, who still kinda like the Relay, wish we still had the VUE. So even after a bunch of kids and the need for a minivan, both my wife and I would rather have kept the VUE and bought something else – NOT the Relay.
Yeah – the Relays are inexpensive on used car lots right now, because they are so damn worthless. We’re keeping the Relay until it falls apart, meaning we could trade it in anytime soon.
I will never – ever – own another minivan. I’m a proud parent, but a minivan is auto death shaped like a purse.
Since your not used to much, anything you choose will be an improvement!