Once upon a time, the Maximum one declared that bringing diesels to the United States would only be possible by the use of urea. You know, the stuff that is is the main nitrogen-containing substance in the urine of mammals. Which can also reduce the NOx from diesel exhaust. Using urea would allow diesels to meet Tier II Bin 5 standards. The Maximum one further decreed that the extra cost of this after treatment system would make diesels prohibitively expensive. (Unless the driver uses man-made urea, but let’s not even go there.) Then, he mentioned the California standards which were way tougher than Tier II Bin 5. This would effectively kill diesels in the US as they wouldn’t be 50 state compliant. Then Volkswagen introduced the TDI Jetta which was 50 state compliant. What made this extra special was that Volkswagen did it without using any urea after treatment. Something which Bob Lutz said wasn’t possible. There was a diesel hurdle that was gone. Who else could be bringing diesels to the United States?
Would you have guessed the French? Auto Trader reports that Peugeot has released details of their new Diesel Hybrid Crossover, the Peugeot 3008. It will emit just 99g/km of “nasty” CO2, which is the same as a first generation Volkswagen Polo Bluemotion. A car several size classes below the 3008. Because of this low CO2 output, the 3008 diesel hybrid will be exempt from UK car tax. A very good selling point. The powertrain will generate 200bhp (163 coming from the diesel engine and 37 from the electric motor) and 369lb/ft of torque. This amount of pulling power is more than a BMW M3 and an Audi RS5. It’ll also come with an electric only mode, four wheel drive and a sport function for faster gear changes. As for the fuel economy figures, you’ll get, according to Peugeot, 62 miles per US gallon. Not bad for a 5 seater CUV.
Now I doubt Peugeot Citroen will set up shop in North America just to sell this car. But what’s to stop Mitsubishi re-badging them and selling them there? They could do with some extra sales…
Rebadge it as a Mitsu, throw in a manual and keep the price reasonable, and I’d certainly consider it to haul my two dogs and sundry camping gear around in…but I’m probably one in a million and not nearly enough to make a business case for.
+1 (although replace “dogs” with “spawn”)
I’ve given up all hope on being able to buy a practical efficient car in the US. I wonder if I can fly to Europe, buy something used, and bring it home? I’ll have to look into the regulations on that sort of thing. There must be a way to get around the oppressive US regulations.
There is – Make sure it’s over 25 years old!
I wonder, is it possible to import such a vehicle? I’d certainly buy this over a Volt, Leaf, or any other hybrid there currently is in America.
Looks pretty damn good to me, especially since nobody in the U.S. sells a reasonably-priced diesel vehicle that’s suitable for “hauling the boys off to the university.”
The main barrier is cost. If it can save enough in fuel cost to cover both the price premium of the diesel engine plus expensive fuel and the hybrid battery, then it’s really interesting. Just bought regular unleaded for $2.439/gallon vs. $2.859/gallon for diesel at the same station.
I bet that Nissan would have the best shot at bringing European diesel engines to a market skeptical about European car maintenance costs. Combine a mainstream North American/Asian free market car like the Altima, a European diesel engine, and a really long power train warranty and you have a winner.
Assuming a 30 mpg car vs. this with 15K miles/yr and your prices:
Gas: $1220/yr
Diesel: $692/yr
So, we have a nearly halved savings in fuel, and diesels are typically a couple grand more. Thus around 3ish years the so-called premium is gone by fuel alone.
Diesels cost more because they’re more expensive to make than gas engines. Just like BMWs cost more because they’re made with better quality parts.
This argument of cost is always only applied when we’re talking about diesels/hybrids vs. gas cars. And there’s no reason for it, since people are very willing to pay for good gas mileage. The Prius sells well because of its economy and function, and the Jetta TDI sells like hotcakes. You’re also not accounting for any externality offsetting by buying a highly efficient car, and the desires of the folks who would purchase one based on wanting to decrease their carbon emissions. Desire trumps cost, and the premium isn’t that much in the first place.
The so called premium is bogus anyway. Yes, it costs more, but the cars depreciate less. Also, by the nature of diesels they last longer just by their general construction. Win/win all around.
The argument doesn’t hold water. It’s just a justification for anti-diesel bias.
Mitsubishi Expo Hybrid! Sounds good.
Same fuel economy/emissions as the current Golf Bluemotion — still somewhat smaller, but does not need a hybrid setup to achieve the same economy. (The new Polo Bluemotion is 12% more efficient than the Golf.)
Still the performance potential of the 3008 does look appealing …
What i don’t understand is why they didn’t use the 1.6 (109 hp?) diesel engine. People who buy hybrids want the best fuel economy and therefore don’t probably care about 200 hp – especially with the low end torque of the electric motor.
A quick search of the 3008 shows the non hybrid 163 bhp version gets euro combined fuel economy of 35.6 mpg(us) whilst the 1.6 109 bhp gets 46 mpg(us) so a simple cal would suggest that a 1.6 hybrid would have got ~ 73 mpg(us)
I always thought the PSA – Mitsubishi tie up made sense but as that’s not happening (currently) don’t hold your breath for any Peugeot based models in the US
Agreed. I just don’t get manufacturers on this one. They all have diesels, they know its possible to make compliant ones, yet they go unreleased. Want a business case? Look at VW. One of the few really good reasons to buy a Jetta over the competition is the diesel. And people do.
I believe the Euro test cycle is a bit more optimistic than the US version, so the same vehicle in the US might be rated with significantly lower fuel economy – maybe 45 mpg? Whatever it would actually be, that would be a nice offering.
But diesel sales in the US have been hampered by several factors:
– pollution regulation
– good performance from cheap gasoline engines
– bad past offerings (Oldsmobile diesel, weakling Rabbits, expensive Mercedes)
– fuel availability
– reputation, reputation, reputation.
Peugeot has a nice car there, but a snowball’s chance of selling it in the US.
With Fiat’s re-entry in the US, I’d like to see the 500 offered with one of the diesels they have in Europe.
“Then Volkswagen introduced the TDI Jetta which was 50 state compliant. What made this extra special was that Volkswagen did it without using any urea after treatment.”
The unfortunate thing that also happened in that process is VW’s new TDIs can not be run on BioDiesel blends above 5%. Ironically killing the easiest path to reduced NOX emissions in the process.
As for Maximum Bob… Had GM had viable Diesel products in their portfolio Lutz would have been singing the praises of oelmotoren rather than damning them. He was merely being GM’s PR mouthpiece and not speaking as an engineer. The fact that VW & Peugeot proved him wrong should come as no surprise to anyone, least of all the community here at TTAC.
I own a 2009 Jetta TDI, and it is fitted with a NOx catalyst. I imagine that’s probably the “harder” path than biodiesel technically?
I confess ignorance, mostly, about diesel and biodiesel, but haven’t I been hearing that biodiesel has a substantial carbon footprint in its production? And wouldn’t this also generate NOx? Would it not outweigh the NOx benefit out of the car’s tailpipe in the end?
For whatever it’s worth, I bought mine thanks to CFC and generous tax benefits. Take away those incentives and I don’t know that I’d have gone the diesel or hybrid route.
dingram01: Vastly simplified, VW’s solution to reducing NOx without using urea is to trap it in a filter in the exhaust system, then actually inject fuel into this filter to create a secondary explosion to burn off the NOx. BioDiesel doesn’t burn off as easily and clogs the filter, causing the TDI to go into “limp mode”. Again, that is a vast oversimplification but is essentially the issue in a nutshell.
BioDiesel’s NOx output is directly tied to the type of vegetable oils used in its production. Some have higher NOx than petroleum Diesel, but most have significantly less, including some that are close to zero.
As for carbon footprint, BioDiesel’s is zero as it is using present day carbon sources, rather than ones buried hundreds of millions of years ago.
The California Air Resources Board moves the goalposts every few years in a bid to keep Diesel out of cars. Ironically BioDiesel is being mandated for use in non-Automotive applications such as shipping, trucking, and power generation precisely because of its ability to reduce NOx, while Automotive applications are being discouraged at the same time. Government through Unintended Consequences seems to be the California Way! Why we let this fundamentally broken state wag the dog of this industry boggles my mind.
“As for carbon footprint, BioDiesel’s is zero as it is using present day carbon sources, rather than ones buried hundreds of millions of years ago.”
My point (and what I’ve been hearing) is that you cannot truly credit biodiesel as a zero-footprint fuel, because its production (i.e., farming, refining, transport, etc.) require fossil fuel, and thus the attendant carbon output.
If one were to produce biodiesel using ONLY biodiesel to support its production, then as I understand it this would consume most of the product, leaving little as available fuel. But this is the internet, and I am ready to hear that my “sources” are off the mark.
Of course, this really is the topic for another thread…apologies everybody for the thread creep!
Speaking of urea, I discovered yesterday that Advance Auto Parts sells a gallon of “Diesel Exhaust Fluid” for about $8. So for anyone driving a vehicle with an SCR system that requires urea refills, I imagine that might work unless the manufacturers require their special urea to be the only urea used. And it’s probably a lot cheaper than your unfriendly local stealership.
And I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again: If a car company clues in and starts offering a minivan type vehicle with an efficient diesel engine at a reasonable price, they’ll sell every one they can make. I don’t understand why it still hasn’t happened. They could be throwing TDIs in the Routans in Windsor and actually sell Routans, but VW apparently hasn’t clued in on that fact yet!
There are standards on urea concentration (32.5% urea – 67.5% water) no matter what Manufactures tell you all purchased urea meets these standards and is the same
http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/MB10033.pdf
The DEF you purchase should state and display the certification of the American Petroleum Institute(API), German Institute of Standardization DIN70700, the International Organization for Standardization ISO 22241-1, and meet AUS – 32 specifications. This will ensure the proper purity and concentration (32.5%) of urea.
Isn’t this the weird new through-the-road hybrid system too? While that seems like an elegant, simple idea, I can’t wait to see if it actually works in the real world….
Also, getting a lot of CR-Z in that snout
Most Euro hatchbacks are going to get a similar snout thanks to Euro NCAP pedestrian safety requirements.
These requirements are voluntary… but they are also the most comprehensive and politically supported in the EU.
For reference, just ask the Chinese how easy it is to sell cars there with a low NCAP safety rating.
I’m thrilled. I like driving. I like using as little fuel as possible doing it. And except for a very few entries, diesels have not been targeted to the enthusiast market. The VW current genetation Golf pretty much IS the nortable exception. I saw a TDI in the showroom yesterday, it is a slick package. If I could get all the good handling stuff in an electric hybrid, so much the better. Around here in the NE, one spends most driving time at 5 mnh or less anyway. Occasionally, I get some sport time in. I’d like to have a car that does both well AND gets 62 mph.
Peugeot makes outstanding diesels. Toyota has worked with them for close to a decade now and I believe Peugeot has remained their top source across the board for diesel related ventures.
It’s an amazingly interesting company. One of these days I will delve deep into the blood, guts and gore that are Peugeot. I’ve had six of their vehicles and frequented the vectorbd site for years.
If the Euro found it’s happy medium in parity with the US dollar, and if they ever got serious about entering North America, I would consider forking up a six figure sum to get one of their dealerships.
But the chances of Peugeot coming stateside and building their own dealer network, along with a stable Euro, is probably less than 5%.
Renault has already been a success here via their Nissan partner. I don’t see Peugeot following them unless they can find a partner here with long-term stability. That won’t be Mitsubishi.
Steven, I would love to hear what you have to say about the blood, guts, and gore that are Peugeot. For being the 5th largest automaker in the workd (according to a recent TTAC post) they are a mystery (or a joke) to most american consumers. If the 3008 primes demand for Peugeot in the US, I’m all for it
Me like torque. Drop this engine in the Ranger, add optional paddle shifts and I’m buying one tomorrow! Tow my boat on weekends and zip around getting FIVE times the mileage of the my V8 Dakota during the week? It sounds too good to be true… so I’m sure it will never, ever happen.
This one is going to be expensive. Just go over to the Peugeot website to see that they basically mated the electric battery engine to their top of the line motor. This is basically their halo hybrid for the elite moneyed set. It is probably a good business decision by Peugeot, and not really an ecological one. If they wanted to get even better milage they could have offered this with any of their smaller engines already offered in the 3008.
I think they will eventually do this when the economics work out. And that’s why I find the solution of a through the road hybrid a relatively good one. It gives you 4WD which many people want, and the electric motor is independent of the IC engine so they can be developed rather independently. However there was some debate on the Autobloggreen forums if the “through the road” hybrid design is as good as the Prius or Volt designs.
Peugeot gave unofficial but numerous hints that they’ll price the hybrid model with a 15% premium over the corresponding diesel.
With the current prices, for EUR 30.000 you have a top spec 163hp 3008 HDI 2.0 Automatic.
With the hybrid, 34-35k will buy you 25% increase in power, 40% increase in pull, 30% improvement in fuel economy, AWD mode for those ski trips, significant reduction in taxes (a couple of hundreds of EUR per year), state subsidies for ecologically friendly vehicles, and, if applicable and depending on country, reduction in special taxes on company cars.
All this taken into account, the price premium does not look excessive.
They took the most powerful engine, instead of 1.6 HDI 110hp unit, and the top package (leather etc) for the simple reason that it will allow to absorb the cost of mechanics on the high margin options in the first months of production. I have no doubt whatsoever that the lower power version will be there soon.
At last, a hybrid w/a diesel engine, which of course is the same power train as most US railroad locomotives. All it needs is flanged wheels.
Does it shut off at idle like the gas-electrics do?
This car has a “Start/Stop” feature.
If GM had any brains, they would change the need to have the driver pee in slot from a disadvantage to a feature.
“Tired of getting out of your car after drinking that Big Gulp? Now you do your business at 80mph without ever lifting your butt of the seat!”
7-11 could co-sponsor.
+1 Now there’s a little American couch potato know-how at work.
It boggles the mind that VWoA won’t allow the TDI Tiguan over here. I know that they are a BoFI but really, how often do you have to be hit over the head to push one of the few advantages that you company seems to hold over anyone else in this market?
Very weird. I’d look at that Peugeot in a minute if they ever came to Canada. Won’t hold my breath though.
There must be a way to get around the oppressive US regulations. I’d like to have a car that does both well AND gets 62 mph. I have no doubt whatsoever that the lower power version will be there soon.
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