In TTAC’s recent Chevrolet Cruze review, tced2 made a very interesting point:
Why does “globalization” always mean the work is done everywhere but America? Isn’t America on the “globe”?
Another interesting comment, this one from alexndr333:
So, welcome to 2010, Mr. Baruth, and watch as GM operates like the other big boys, pulling its international talents together to design, engineer and build a small car for us Americans.
I’ll stand by my previous statements here. My definition of an “American car” is one with major engineering input from the United States, assembled in the United States using a majority of United States-sourced parts. Anything else — whether we are talking Fiesta, Corolla, or Cruze — isn’t quite good enough. When I buy Allen-Edmonds shoes or a Hickey-Freeman suit, I expect full US assembly and I expect to be notified of non-US content in the product.
So, my question to the B&B is twofold. First: Are you interested in purchasing an “American car”? If so, what is the working definition you use for that phrase?
Does America include Canada?
Well, “America” does, and it includes Mexico as well. I’m using the rather provincial meaning of the term here, which is replaced on the Intarwebz by “USian”.
US/Canada/Mexico are North America and that is a regional trading block we should be working on establishing to be a strong partnership. Europe is now it’s own partnership of member nations and very strong due to that fact.
That aside, I see many imports with substantially more US content and final manufacturing than many of the products on the lot of the flag waving domestic dealer across the street. It also seems people draw the conclusion that made in America = made in UAW States.
I live in Canada and I avoid purchasing “American” as plague. I grew up worshiping everything American. However having lived next door to America for 25 years I now believe everything American is garbage, from their political system, their culture down to their screw-drivers. America can’t produce anything of value. America is like Russia, nearby which I lived for the first 20 years of my life. A country convinced of its greatness by nothing more than its self-delusion.
I wouldn’t buy an American car other than as a beater. For top quality products I look to Europe for reliable appliances I take Japan.
I’m in the same boat, but without the “everything American = crap” rhetoric. At this point, the only car I’d consider new that’s “American” — or at least made by an American company — is the Ford Fusion. Other than that, I’d rather drive European or Japanese iron.
For beaters, it’s whatever vehicle has a proven track record of dependability. A few American cars fit the bill, especially if they have near-indestructible motors like the Chevy 350 and 3800 V6 in them.
I always get a kick out of knuckleheads touting the quality of German or Japanese products as a reason to buy, for example, a BMW X5, Mercedes GL or ML, Honda Accord, etc. These products are all assembled in the U.S.
Making wild generalizations about the quality of products from one company or another based on the headquarters location is sort of a fool’s game these days.
“A country convinced of its greatness by nothing more than its self-delusion” Contrary to your assertion, delusion isn’t the only source of our feelings of greatness. We’ve actually accomplished a few things. Early on we kicked the British out of the country – twice. Later we went on to significantly contribute to Allied victory on -two- fronts in WWII, we weaponized the atom and invented the Internet. The U.S. is the birthplace of Marilyn Monroe, Angelina Jolie, Christina Hendricks, Jazz and Rap. Hollywood dominates filmed entertainment worldwide. The Men’s Ice Hockey Gold Medals in the 1960 and 1980 Olympics made us feel pretty proud of ourselves. We’re not perfect, but we’ve earned our inflated ego.
Don’t know what you are using as a basis for your judgments, but American tools are among the worlds finest. The same can be said for medical equipment, industrial equipment, high end electronics, aircraft, the list is endless. Fact is the only place where America is not competitive is in cost-sensitive consumer goods…and neither is Canada for the same reasons that America is not. As for cars, there are some great American cars, and some crappy ones. Ironically, the crappy ones were those built under Daimler…
American = anything made before 1972.
Twotone
I’m not as vociferous as ra_pro but “American” is not an asset.
It’s as simple as this: there’s nothing “un-American” about buying the best automobile available… and it’s not the consumer’s fault that few (if any) of those cars are American. Blame that on the feds, the unions, the managers… take your pick.
How did your wife feel when you announced that you were divorcing her because she was no longer the most beautiful wife available? Did you explain to her that she should be mad at the health care industry for not inventing a cure for aging?
Is your favorite baseball team at any given time the one that is currently winning?
Buying foreign products isn’t un-American, but I think having pride in not buying American is as un-American as it gets.
No, it’s not.
It’s called ‘Consumer Choice’, or sometimes ‘The Competitive Market’, and is a part of what is usually termed ‘Capitalism’.
And that is as American as you can possibly get.
“using a majority of United States-sourced parts”
How could you tell? By law, the “domestic content” line on the window sticker includes parts sourced from Canada.
According to the law, how is the percentage of domestic content measured? Is based on dollar value of the parts, or are the parts simply counted without regard for complexity or value?
For me, “Mostly made of North American produced parts, and assembled in North America” is probably sufficient for me.
All other things being ballpark-similar, I’ll buy stuff (not just autos) that is made in the US/Canada/Mexico over others. There are other sunglasses that are nice, but I’m only likely to buy Oakleys. Too bad the bags they come with for storage are not also made in the US.
Hmm… my wife’s Oakleys are made in China.
I could not care less. I buy the car that best fits my needs, wants, and desires, where ever that car happens to be made. So far, no American car ever has. Nor any Asian car. But I am open-minded. If any American company comes out with a manual transmission sporty station wagon of medium-small size, reasonable price and decent build quality, I would certainly consider it. Until then, it is Swedish (formerly American-owned though) or German for me.
It annoys me to no end that I can’t buy a Ford, Chrysler or GM station wagon. The Ford Flex does not qualify, it’s just too big. BMW will not be bringing the new 5-series wagon to the U.S. I’m not anti-SUV, but it does annoy me that SUV’s (and those ridiculous cross-overs) are killing the market for station wagons. Is there even going to be a wagon version of the new Saab? What choices will you have left – A6, Passat, E-Class, V-70… It’s a short list.
The Cadillac wagon is a possibility if GM can bring up Cadillac’s projected reliability.
You might get a shot at a Regal wagon in the next two years.
Anyway, is the projected reliability of the CTS really any worse than that of Volvo and Mercedes? I know the CTS isn’t at the top, but I don’t think it’s the class bottom-feeder either.
You ever heard of Randolph Engineering company? USA, every single parts and labors is USA. The machines to make their sunglasses are made in USA, they made it themselves. Or say Seven for All Mankind (all of their jeans are USA made), not their shirts.
That’s the definition of Made in USA for me.
Every parts, labors, manufacturers, engineering, designs, and whatever else, should be made, conceived, engineered, and manufactured in USA.
I think the closest current car is Tesla Model S, the batteries are sourced from Panasonic though. Camaro made in Canada. Mustang is made in Flint, I believe, but most of their parts are from Mexico.
If the price is a bit more than the competitors but the product is good I wouldn’t mind forking over the extra dough. I thin Tesla Model S is the one for me, when I get my career going ^___^.
Isn’t the Tesla made in the UK?
Cadillac DTS and V8 Lucerne?
The Tesla S is a Lotus Elise -an English car – with another drivetrain. Which, as you pointed out correctly, is sourced from Asia. Nothing American going on there.
Writing this at a quarter til twelve is certainly going to be a bitch. But hell… I only have an auction to attend in the morning.
I want to be woken up by an all-american digital alarm clock at 11:00 AM and grab my very best 1970’s sized digital watch on the way to breakfast. Clothes are flannel, old rock concert T-shirt, jeans, and work boots along with some joints cleverly disguised as roll up smokes in my front pocket. I won’t smoke em’. Just like to have em’. Fits the image that Ben Hamper weaved so well in ‘Rivethead’.
Pancakes, bacon, eggs, toast, coffee, orange juice, and some Texas Pete hot sauce for breakfast while I watch the US of A drop a few tons of grade A uranium on that effervescent stinkhole between Afgahnistan and Pakistan (Osamastan?).
While conversing with my lovely wife and two kids over breakfast, we see ‘Breaking News’ on our all-American Zenith flat screen. It’s Bim Laden running naked along the prairie while army servicemen rattletale his bony ass. For those who don’t know what that is, take a towel, role it on opposite ends, and snap it with the goal of inflicting severe physical harm.
Kisses from wife and kids. My work buddies from the three adjoining houses get out at the same time with our solid aluminum lunch boxes and superman Thermoses, on the way to our ‘car’.
Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon looks more like a luxurious bad ass Dodge Magnum but with the best components in the world from stem to stern. Side made out of the best dead redwoods from the great state of California (now that all the illegals and deadbeats were kicked out). Interior made out of the finest and thickest dead cows in this great Republic. Big flat screens front and back. DVD player and internet. Small wet bar and enough speakers to hold your own rock concert. Back seats convert easily into lay-z boys and we can download any Youtube video on the planet.
Engine comes straight out of the Z06 (of course). Powertrain developed by Fisher Body. As we go on our way to our jobs, we see American factory after American factory turning out the absolute finest and most enduring products on God’s green Earth. Everything designed to last for at least 30 years and can easily be upgraded and updated if need be.
The workplace has no MBA’s, no union reps, no attorneys, and no snot assed HR personnel to tell us what to do. Just engineers and assembly teams who make up a specific portion of the vehicle and change positions every hour or so. Ironically enough, I’m describing the very same strategy Volvo used to build their trucks and 240’s.
Everything around us is American… even the entire world. The Europeans got too tired of their snooty leaders and PC ridden society and decided to become the ‘American union’. A country where everyone thankfully speaks English. A ‘free’ country with people who are so proud of their new way of life, that not even the French will admit they’re French. Germany changes their name to Pennsylvania. Italy is New Jersey… and the largest cities in Greece are named after Frank Zappa’s kids.
All the countries in the world are renamed in honor of American Presidents… except Jimmy Carter. Japan, Korea, and China are renamed Truman, Eisenhower, and William Howard Taft. It’s a beautiful world where rock n’ roll is played with real bands and real instruments and the only opportunities for pop divas are as a waitress at Waffle House and cosmetology school.
The four hour work day is highly productive as classic Jimmy Hendrix and Doors blasts through the speakers. All vehicles are customized with whatever we think sells… which always does. Think of a chopper shop with an army of robots and some ‘bad ass’ welding and fitting tools. There is no pressure for output. Everything magically gets done in due time.
Then I wake up and realize that America will eventually whore itself out to the politicians and the Chinese government. Damn! It was fun while it lasted.
Eesh… this is a tough one. I’ll bet you get a dozen different answers before this thread is exhausted.
An easy answer would be: what flag flies over the manufacturer’s company HQ. By this definition, GM and Ford are still “American”. Chrysler, not so much. Meh.
Another possible angle: who actually owns the company that makes and/or sells a vehicle? What’s the real breakdown of stockholders by nationality? Putting aside the recent bailouts (which, truth be told, I feel pretty agnostic about), who really owns Ford and GM? USians? The Saudis? The Chinese? I will defer to others on the specific answer to this, but I’ll bet using this definition won’t provide any clarity, either.
Now, using “country of origin” for parts and final assembly as a possible definition… yikes, talk about cognitive dissonance! Asian cars with more domestic content than American marques… Korean cars rebranded as Chevrolets… Brazilian engines, Chinese electronics, Turkish delivery vans… my head hurts just thinking about it. So, no help there.
I grew up in Michigan in the very heart of the industry, and there was more than a little goodwill and sentimentality still lurking within me for the American car. But, it seems to me that the very companies that would benefit from that sentimentality are doing their damnedest to sell us all out to the PRC, not just in motor vehicles but in every other consumer good you can name. I have to say, that fact has pretty much killed the sentimentality.
Of any domestic, Ford is the only one that does anything at all for me so far as that good old USian feeling… and most of the current vehicles I’d like from them are built in Mexico. Sigh.
So, the answer to the question for me is… I’ll be damned if I know.
I am often left with the feeling that, to my dismay, nationality is increasingly a game for chumps. Corporate feudalism is where it’s at, my friends.
Meantime, I’ll guess I’ll just keep driving my 30-year-old Volvos and my Econoline… for what it’s worth, at least I know where the hell they came from.
Why so much emphasis on point of manufacture? Are ipods and nike sneakers not considered American products despite their overseas production?
If a company, founded and headquartered in America, using capital from primarily American investors (especially now-but let’s leave the bailout aside), and guided (assuming) mostly by American executives, is able to assemble and market a car, regardless of the way in which said company chooses to do so, I would consider it American. To the extent that it even matters anymore.
“Are ipods and nike sneakers not considered American products despite their overseas production?”
I don’t think most people would think that. I consider Nike and Apple to be American companies that produce a majority (maybe it’s nearly all) of their products overseas. I give them credit for having large U.S. employee bases for non-production functions (design, marketing, engineering, etc.) but I know their products aren’t made in the U.S.
I usually don’t care about where my stuff is made, as long as the quality is there. It’s a world where Braun is American (Proctor & Gamble), McIntosh Laboratories is Japanese (D&M), Jaguar is Indian (Tata), and Mark Levinson has nothing to do with Mark Levinson (Harman International).
Allen Edmonds is an interesting story though. I’m a sucker for their made-in-America marketing. The market for welted dress shoes died off as the customers died off during the 60’s to 80’s, but they seem to have carved out great niche compared to, say, Church’s, John Lobb, or Regal Shoes.
I am interested in purchasing the best product at the best price, no matter where it is made. I could never understand why people would limit themselves to “I only buy X brand” or “I only buy stuff made in X country;” it just seems foolish to me to not want the best. It must be a generational thing, I usually notice this type of attitude with my parents generation. (Although us younger people will do that with brands, noticeably the Apple sheeple.)
Your definition is kind of close to that of a ‘Swiss watch’.
No. Whatever appelation is used, I wouldn’t be interested in buying an ‘American car’ (well, I live in Canada, but I wouldn’t be looking for a Canadian-made car, either). Instead, I’d be interested in getting myself an ‘honest car’, one that is sold based on its merits, not an illusion of something ethereal. I don’t want to pay for an illusion of economic patriotism the same way I don’t want to pay for an illusion of safety or status or anything. Why? Because selling illusions is always manipulative, which makes buying illusions plain stupid.
I just want something that is not made by adversarial union labor. I don’t really care where that union is located. I’d buy a car designed in the US and produced in the US, provided it wasn’t built by people who care more about their entitlements than their product.
Try something Chinese then. The Peoples’ Committe seems pretty hot on squashing any attempts by the workers to organise unions.
To be “American” a car must be assembled in the US or Canada using 75% or higher percentage of parts from the US or Canada. The styling and engineering should also be tailored primarily to a customer in the United States. The Toyota Camry is more accurately called an American car than a Japanese car because it is not only made in America from domestic parts, but it would make no sense for the Japanese home market.
The Chevrolet Cruze has the potential, in my opinion, to be called an American car even though it’s a badge engineered version of the Daewoo Lacetti. Because Korean and American car tastes are at least somewhat aligned, the resulting car doesn’t look out of place in the US. It’s not a tall, narrow hatchback. If American customer demand keeps the Lordstown factory busy cranking out small sedans in large numbers, I’m willing to call it American.
I think the definition has more to do with which nation sees the most benefit from the purchase. If you follow the money around then it tends to make the case for the thinking that it doesn’t matter if you “buy American.”
The engineering, design, sales, marketing, and G&A groups for Detroit are mostly in Detroit. As such, buying a car from the Detroit-3 tends to give these Americans jobs, and they return the favor by spending their money eating at American diners or visiting American attractions.
The globalization of supply chain and manufacturing means that most Toyota, VW, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, etc are employing Americans to provide parts and assemble the vehicle. So for these facets it tends to be a wash, but the per-vehicle variable profit goes back to Japan or Germany to be spent paying out salaried Yen and Euros to a large group of people.
One often-overlooked component is that the Japanese and Korean companies continue to plow a large deal of their investment dollars back into the USA, while Ford and GM continue to invest in other countries with cheaper labor. This basically nets out any real differences in terms of where the money is going.
I suppose if you had to pick a “worst case,” then buying BMWs and Mercedes (those not made in the USA) tends to be the most offensive thing to do. The fewest number of Americans benefit during the sale, and there isn’t much investment in American workers by BMW. Although some Americans benefit may when these cars visit mechanic over and over and over again.
But one thing is for sure, the logic that “it’s a global economy so it doesn’t matter” is not a sentiment often shared by people else ware in this world. If you go to China/Taiwan/Japan/Korea you’ll find a huge number of people who feel compelled to “buy Asian.” There’s a reason companies like Proton, GAZ, Dongfeng, etc exist. There are customers out there that want vehicles they perceive to be the product of their local citizens. Yes there are people who buy off-brands, but by and large there is a greater feeling of supporting their locale even though Chrysler, Ford, GM build vehicles locally in Europe, China, and other pacific rim countries.
Many (self declared?) intelligent people in America are quick to say how there is no reasonable expectation of patriotism in regards to automobiles. This is usually a rationalization (whether it’s logically valid is immaterial) that they form because they view “buy American” as an ignorant way to think. Ultimately it puts “American” companies at a disadvantage given that people in other countries continue to purchase vehicles with a sense of patriotism – thus having a tendency to avoid American cars. And you follow that with Americans who don’t care to buy American because they’ve rationalized their decision to go global with their car-buying decision.
England is probably the closest comparison with America in that they don’t hold patriotism as a relevant factor with their autos… but they also don’t have any major automakers anymore. I think they simply reached the point of “patriotism is overrated if it means buying a sucky car” long before the American audience reached that point.
What about BMW’s facility in Spartanburg which cranks out Z4s and X5s for export? Or MB’s facilities in Mississippi where they’re talking about doing the same with the C-Class?
Unlike Honda or Toyota these companies don’t do a heck of a lot of engineering in the US though, I’ll give you that.
“This is usually a rationalization (whether it’s logically valid is immaterial) that they form because they [American highbrows] view ‘buy American’ as an ignorant way to think”
Well, I remember I once went to a ‘buy American’ Website. For all US-assembled vehicles, they indicated the percentage of ‘US/Canadian content’ and that of ‘Mexican content’. So, talking about NAFTA and stuff, we apparently got two kinds of content: a desirable white content (white meat?) and an admixture of some undesirable brown content. Well, regardless of how rational it is, I’d hate to be lumped with those particular ‘buy American’ people who use a criterion like this.
Kind of reminds me of what I once saw while driving from Atlanta to Mobile, AL. I stopped for gas somewhere near the GA-AL border. A septic tank service truck pulled in. A sign on the truck stated that (a) the company was proudly American-owned since 19XX, and (b) it was a family business. Don’t remember the name of the company, but it something real common, like, say, Roger’s. But it was apparent that the two or three guys who came with the truck were Mexicans. Probably members of the extended family, I remember I joked.
A good and clear analysis of the subject in question. I can wholly testify to your last paragraph.
I am British, and I guess you could call me patriotic as I was a career soldier who dodged bullets for Queen and Country in three different conflicts.
The last British made car I bought was areound 1986. Some things just involve too much risk to ever repeat.
@holydonut:
A good and clear analysis of the subject in question. I can completely testify to your last paragraph.
I am British, and I guess you could call me patriotic as I was a career soldier who dodged bullets for Queen and Country in three different conflicts.
The last British made car I bought was areound 1986. Some things just involve too much risk to ever repeat.
The country of origin IS important, if the connections to that country is one of the main selling points. The punters had a hard time accepting the Saab 9-2X and 9-7X as “true” Saabs, because they were so obviously not “born from jets”. A true Saab or Volvo has to have scandinavian origins, or otherwise, what’s the point? People are buying those cars on the notion that those Swedes know how to build cars that are durable under bad conditions. Without that notion, the cars whole raison d´etre disappears. Would Tata be able of selling ANY Jaguars or Range Rovers, if they shipped the entire production line back to India? Would anyone still believe in vorsprung durch technic, if German engineers stopped making sense and let the french slap their cars together?
And yes, in that line of thought, there are a place in peoples hearts for cars that are truly and intrinsically American. The problem is, if not even GM recognizes that asset, and just lets their American brand be tarnished by sub-par products, what can you do? Remember, GM uses the Chevrolet brand to sell Daewoo cars in the whole of Europe, a 700 million people market. And Daewoo has not a single bit or piece that can be thought of as intrinsically American. Counter-intuitive and counter-productive. The receipt for disaster.
In fact, Volvo and Saab are the prefect example of the kind of illusion I was talking about (see above). Suppose Geely completes its acquisition of Volvo Cars and then decides to re-style and re-brand those cars as Geely. Are they going to find any buyers in the US? Hardly. I don’t want to offend any Swedes here – I really don’t – but, judged on their own merits, the cars Volvo makes today are rather mediocre and Saabs are even worse. So, buying a Volvo or Saab, you’re basically buying an illusion of the car’s “Scandinavian origins” or it having been “born from jets”.
Yeah, but how much of Swedeness may apply, before the car turns into something that is not intrinsically scandinavian? If it’s not owned by Swedes, not designed or even built in Sweden, is it still a Swedish car? A Toyota Camry or Daewoo Lacetti may be built anywhere in the world, those cars are appliances. Their main sellingpoint is not their country of origin. But if American car companies are trying to convince people that their “american” cars are american, when they are not, then something is turned upside down. Especially so when “foreign” car companies are selling cars in the US that are designed, engineered and built by Americans.
I will have to go with the HQ Flag.
Also the vehicle should be designed for the US market. Nothing less than a V6 maybe(?).
P.S. I am Greek, and I live in Greece. I love the US way of life. We all live in delusion anyway.
“American car” is about a philosophy, not a country of manufacture nor a source of parts. There are but a few left:
Ford: Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, Town Car. Mustang.
GM: Camaro. Corvette. CTS.
Chrysler: 300. Charger. Challenger.
These days, the “American car” is almost an anachronism. Americans over a certain age still love them, but most of the rest of Americans have moved on.
I was born and raised in an “American car” family. I am a union member, but not UAW. I have no need for an “American car”, nor do I have any desire for one.
…i can’t speak to anything else in your list, but at the very least, the camaro was engineered in australia and built in canada…
…you have a valid point about the american car as genre, though, irrelevant of its countries of design, production, or ownership…i’d even go one further to include the body-on-frame pickup trunk in that same list: it’s by far the most popular and american passenger car on our roads…
If some mystical American “philosophy” is what you’re going by, then what about the F-150, the Silverado, every Jeep product, full size vans, big Cadillacs and every other product that either currently doesn’t sell well in foreign markets and/or never would? Mercedes developed the ML primarily for the U.S. market, so I guess that qualifies. The Accord and Camry as produced in the U.S. were designed specifically for the U.S. and are not sold outside North America, so add them to the list. The “mystical philosophy” made in America list is actually pretty long.
BTW, out of the ten cars you list, seven are assembled in Canada. You really should have picked better examples.
The thing is, the “Buy American” slogan is jingoism masquerading as patriotism, used as a shortcut to justify a reason for buying when all other logical reasons have lost.
Not the “best in class”? Best value? Best engineered? How about best value? Best designed? Cheapest? Largest? Smallest? Best mileage? No? Ok, how about Buy American!
It’s exactly like the “Buy Union Made” campaign in the ’30s. And as essentially meaningless. Empty slogans that can’t stand up to scrutiny.
The Emperor has no clothes.
Jack, I hate to put it to you, but if you insist on a car “with major engineering input from the United States, assembled in the United States using a majority of United States-sourced parts,” then you’ll soon walk.
I see you already left yourself “major” loopholes. You will be hard pressed to find a true blue American car. And if I tell you how parts from China can turn into “American” parts when supposedly “semi-finished” goods are inserted in a housing and a box, you will cry. And we don’t want that.
As far as “Buy American” goes, there is a reason why most multinational brands have carefully separated themselves from any national label. People buy a product, not a country. As not-so-Dimwit correctly remarks, once a company plays the patriotism card, it’s a sign that they are desperate, out of options, and soon dead.
In any case, the numbers speak for themselves: In the first six months of 2010, the “foreign” brands (no matter where the cars were built) held a market share of 54 percent, whereas the “American brands” ( no matter where the cars were built) were in the 46 percent minority. In politics, they would call that a “landslide” these days …
All Jeeps are as close to American as you can get, except for the ones with a Hemi (Hemis are built in Mexico).
All Engineered at Auburn Hills, MI
Grand Cherokee, Ass’ed at Jefferson North – Detroit, Engine – V6 Trenton Michigan, Trans – Kokomo Indiana, Axles – I think Detroit Axle soon to be Marysvile Mich.
Wrangler, Ass’ed at Toledo North, engines and trans USA built.
Liberty, Ass’ed at Toledo North, engines and trans – USA built.
Jeep is at the very bottom of most reliability charts. Not a good endorsement of U.S. quality of design and manufacture.
I suppose you’re considering only parts content and assembly, not where they were engineered. The 2011 GC will be on a M-B M-class platform.
+1 krhodes1. All the rest of this is just so much hyperbole. America (GM) can’t figure out how to build a small car, so everybody bitches. GM then leverages its international arms and uses their expertise to engineer a small car, everybody still bitches. It became obvious long ago that for most on this website there is nothing that GM can or will do, short of C7 liquidation, to make you happy.
For the record I drive an ’03 Jetta TDI. I have a long commute and chose the best tool for the job. Period. While my last few cars have been VW’s, if this particular vehicle were a GM product or something from Japan I still would have purchased it.
«I drive an ‘03 Jetta TDI. I have a long commute and chose the best tool for the job. Period. While my last few cars have been VW’s, if this particular vehicle were a GM product or something from Japan I still would have purchased it»
Yeah, but you couldn’t, because US co’s can’t make half-decent small diesels. Period.
True, and therein lies the rub. Like much of the Cruze design and engineering, GM has good small Diesels elsewhere in the world. They’ve decided to go the “Eco” route for their high-mileage model instead of trying to certify one of their oil burners. It will be interesting to see how that works out because at one point GM claimed that the Cruze would get 40MPG highway, full stop. Not some tricked out model, but the Cruze.
All other things being equal, I have a domestic preference.
But “all other things” includes “confidence.” I don’t yet feel equal confidence.
The cars I currently drive were all made in Japan, probably from 0% US content; they’ve served me very well. I’ve invested the money I saved in college educations and stocks of American companies that I think have a bright future.
Eh, whatever. Go pick the Japanese parts off your Harley and see if it runs.
People forgot that the Chevrolet Chevette was significantly Opel in its shared origins with the Kadette. Yet, it was crappy. And then there was the Pontiac Lemans that was a Korean-made crumplezone waiting to happen.
Let’s hope GM finally got it right after 30-some years.
Hence the reason for the huge downfall of American manufacturing. I suppose if GM (and Ford and Chrysler, for that matter) had continued to build desireable cars that ran with the reliability of a Honda and the driving pleasure of a BMW, then this discussion would be largely academic. It’s sad to see the “American” style car disappear into a sea of blandness. I, for one, would love nothing more than to see GM and Ford (heck, even Chrysler despite it’s Italian ownership) storm back and design/build cars right here in America, with largely American content to a buying public that actually wants them. And what would be wrong with that? Does that make me dimwitted for wishing America better than it has been? The 80s and 90s were tough to find love for US nameplated cars, and it showed as my family moved away from the Mercury(s) that we owned and towards Toyota. Despite our deep patriotism (my father was a 27 year veteran of the US Army), it became hard to justify spending so much on a car that you weren’t sure would last for 8 to 10 years (the average that my parents kept cars ran closer to 10-13 years). I have the same dream that Mr. Lang has, but I’m not holding my breath that it’ll happen any time soon…
Currently own British, German, and Japanese-assembled vehicles. There wasn’t anything “local made” that fit what I needed or wanted, so I imported.
Now, if I ever had the need for a minivan or CUV (or compact or midsize sedan… but I like hatches way more than sedans), I’d give the Toyota Sienna, Highlander, Rav4, Camry, Venza, and Corolla/Matrix a hard look. A plant 5 miles down the road provides engines and/or transmissions for those models and I personally know quite a few people that work there. The plant employs 1200 or so people, so it is quite the asset to my local economy.
@WaftableTorque
“I usually don’t care about where my stuff is made, as long as the quality is there. It’s a world where Braun is American (Proctor & Gamble), McIntosh Laboratories is Japanese (D&M), Jaguar is Indian (Tata), and Mark Levinson has nothing to do with Mark Levinson (Harman International).”
Actually, high-end audio is one of the few areas where US companies still design and build some of the best products in the world. The Canadians, British, French, Germans and Swedes also make great stuff (and of course Denmark is an absolute powerhouse), but it’s quite easy to build a system designed and built in the US by independent US companies that can challenge anything from anywhere.
You certainly can’t say that about Lincoln or Cadillac.
Bring back the Buick Lesabre. Now there’s an American car that Baruth is sure to love!
One of the reasons for the lackluster US economy is the fact that we are not manufacturing enough in this country anymore. That fact alone will always have me rooting for US manufacturers. But the fact is we have two VWs in the driveway because the wife and I decided those were the best cars for us at the time of purchase. I hope that the next time we purchase a new car that a US headquartered company is building something in NA that I’d like to buy. Everything else being equal, I will choose to keep the money here.
I’m in the same exact boat. Would like to buy American but right now we have two Volkswagens in the driveway (and an old one in the garage, but that is more of a cross to bear than a lifestyle choice).
Ethan Allen furniture is made in China
So we should all consider Apple products not American? Last I checked Apple was an American company that has their wares assembled in China. That doesn’t magically mean the iPod or iPad are products of a Chinese company, they are American. Just as Coke is an American creation brewed in many different countries.
Autos aren’t really different. Ford and GM produce automobiles worldwide. The Cruze is a GM product though it is Korean at it’s heart. Just as the Fiesta is a Ford product, which benefits Ford with each sale which is an American company, though it was concieved and engineered in Germany and assembled in Mexico.
“So we should all consider Apple products not American?” Um, yeah. Apple is a domestic company selling foreign manufactured products.
My definition of “American Car” would be similar to Jack’s, although there aren’t many such cars left – just as there are very few Japanese, Swedish, or British cars by the same definition.
I would buy an “American Car” that appealed to me, but many wouldn’t, probably because:
-There have been all sorts of sub par American cars built over the past 35 years.
-Anti American sentiment. Jack can’t stand the American where “it is necessary to stand in a long line, remove one’s belt, and grovel before security personnel just to enter the area beneath the (Gageway) Arch”, I suspect many other’s feel the same way.
For me I’ll include Canada and Mexico as places of assembly for American Headquartered companies, or I too fear I’ll soon be walking. For my father the only thing that matters is company headquarters, for him GM, Ford, and Chrysler are American. I know it’s foolish in this modern world but for simplicties sake I’ll use that one too.
Although given that I buy used, I don’t know if country of orgin matters so much.
+1 on buying used.
I’m in the same camp as the many on this site who state that I’ll take the car and somebody else can have the depreciation. I’m too young to buy new and wouldn’t want to anyway. I had my very brief foray into Honda only, but got bored and now I have a Pontiac. I know my Grand Prix has been bashed on the site before, but we know what opinions are like. I like it and it was fairly cheap considering it was 4 years old with 70k. It was had for under $10k before I bought the extended warranty. Say what you will about EWs, but it is a used car and I don’t want to take chances.
The last car that I bought, also 4 years old used (an 03 Accord LX) was $13k before EW.
Buy American may have a nice patriotic(if simplistic) ring to it, but anymore what exactly is American? A long time ago(in the 50’s and 60’s)all the domestic automobile design and assembly was done in the USA-until their quality began to head south and Americans began buying foreign vehicles because of their superior reliability and quality. As the foreign automakers have built assembly plants in the United States many of the parts are manufactured in this country-and in many cases the domestic (read American) content is as high or higher than than that of the so-called domestic automakers. I drive a Honda Element which I believe was designed in the U.S., all parts were domestically built except for the transmission, which was built in Japan-which raises an interesting question-is it domestic or foreign?
62.5% = the “magic bogey”
Reading many of the posted points and counterpoints are good but the issue at hand is in the math. NAFTA content is a tricky (sleep inducing) issue. A vehicle’s material must reach 62.5% overall to be seen as being produced within the NAFTA region (USA/Canada/Mexico) and be exempt from paying import penalties. Ignore the chicken tax for the time being on import trucks.
The materials themselves are where the math becomes fuzzy. Each assembly component must be reviewed individually to determine the NAFTA (domestic) content and the rules for being domestic are not black and white. Example: German steel = seen as NAFTA product? You betcha! Surprisingly it is, give thanks to politicians and lobby groups. Electronic components made entirely in the USA and sent to China for assembly, are these NAFTA compliant? Nope, not even close. Finished PCB boards from China regardless of source origin of components are not. The Harmonized Tariff Schedule codes (HTS codes) for calculating content are a maze of confusion and loopholes. Adding to the muddy subject, come components regardless of origin are considered domestic as a result of the HTS codes, try to figure that one out.
When you see the % on the window sticker 75% Domestic, 25% Foreign; keep the HTS codes and 62.5% in mind. Of the 75% domestic a significant portion could be foreign sourced but the % of content from foreign regions is either less than 62.5% or the foreign sourced material is considered NAFTA (i.e. domestic) via a HTS loophole.
Quoting a colleague, the window sticker %’s are not worth the paper they are printed on without knowing the details. I tend to agree.
Grew up in good ol’ Detroit, Michigan U.S.A. Went to Mumford High School. Remember Eddie Murphy’s Beverly Hills Cop T-shirt? Lived, ate and breathed American cars.
I recommend American cars to bargain-hunting friends, but used only. Terrible quality and steep depreciation makes buying new prohibitive, stupid even. My new cars are Made in Japan.
I didn’t leave them, they left me. Get misty when I hear Dinah Shore sing “See the U.S.A. in your Chevrolet.” Would love to buy American again, but they have to get a whole lot better.
I think Dimwit makes a great point. “Buy American” seems like desperation.
As for me, I fall into the “best car for my needs, regardless of label/country of origin”. After buying foreign nameplates exclusively for years, we bought a Taurus X because it met our needs better than any other competing CUV/wagon. Period. Ironically, it was named one of the Top 10 “Most American Cars” by Newsweek (I think).
The fact that “What is an American car?” is even a viable question means that the answer is meaningless. You could drive yourself insane breaking down parts content and profit flows.
Not only am I interested in buying an “American” car, I did so in January. Though, if he’s read my email, Sajeev can probably tell you how that’s working out for me right now.
Anyhow, the definition I used for an American car was 1) profits go to a company based in the U.S.; 2) at least 50.1% North American parts content on the Monroney (NA having to serve as a proxy for “U.S.” since the parts content doesn’t seperate out parts made in Mexico and Canada from those in the U.S.); 3) assembled in the U.S.
I wanted to buy an “American” car for two reasons. First, I had never bought American before but had always said that when they made a car I wanted and that fit my budget and needs, I would buy one. So I made good on that oath. Second, I do think there’s something to the idea that the squeezing of the American middle class is part of what led to our current fiscal and economic woes. Buying a car that met my three criteria seemed to be a responsible decision, though I would never argue that buying something that doesn’t meet those criteria is irresponsible. I see it as a matter of preference, not of some moral or patriotic duty.
bottom line: No significant passenger car basic platform engineering has taken place in the US in over a decade. In fact, the only unibody that I know of with a PLATFORM engineered here is the Grand Cherokee. By that standard, If you want an American-sourced vehicle, buy a truck
BTW, totally unrelated, kudos to anyone who buys a Hickey-Freeman suit. They’re of such high quality that a judge felt he could bring suit against a dry cleaner for several million dollars for loosing the pants to such a, er, suit. http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LegalCenter/story?id=3119381&page=1
(Full disclosure – I grew up in Rochester, NY, H-F’s home town and I still know people who work there. So my interest in their continued existence is hardly impartial.)
Hickey-Freeman makes a quality product, but it shouldn’t be surprising to learn that it is owned by a British Private Equity firm and an Indian textile firm.
a) The 2012 Focus, on looks alone
b) Tricky.
First, it’s the flag over the HQ. (Google Halliburton for a laugh)
Then, it would have to be 1)Designed here 2)Engineered here 3)Assembled here and 4)51+% of all materials would have their point of origin here.
->So: Basically Impossible.
In a globalized economy, we’re reduced to the Flag over the HQ.
And as @dhathewa remarked, the reverb benefits Can Not Possibly be written off.
Everything goes/comes around/back if the traffic-cop is free.
I save money on cars+maintenance, so I invest/speculate more at ETrade, buy more leather kilts from Jonathan Davis, etc. etc. via the Money-Multiplier based on my Marginal Rate of Saving.
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c) I would note that this country was founded by people using the principles of The Enlightenment philosophers.
It would be fair to argue that “Meritocracy” would be one of them.
So, I think that buying the best bang-for-buck reliable product you can would be a very American behavior indeed.
Slavish “patriotism” to the point of buying domestic even when it’s garbage seems like a distinctly Old-World idea. (Russia, parts of France, Italy, etc.)
And if Ralph Emerson would’ve pooh-poohed it, so will I.
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d) +100,000 To @Steven Lang
+10 to @Bertel Schmitt
+1 to @CJinSD, @holydonut, @dhathewa
“…Slavish “patriotism” to the point of buying domestic even when it’s garbage seems like a distinctly Old-World idea. (Russia, parts of France, Italy, etc.)…”
That is absolutely true. But, how many people simply dismiss the American nameplate out of hand. I’m willing to bet most owners of Toyotas and Hondas are not even willing to look beyond their habitual brand purchases. And that is a shame. I am definitely not a Buy American type, but I am a big believer in “Try American”…
“->So: Basically Impossible.”
No, not really. Lots of Ford and GM products fit your criteria including the F-150, Silverado, Econoline, Escape, Ranger, Colorado, Corvette, DTS and others. All are designed and assembled in the U.S. by U.S. headquartered companies using 75% or more domestic parts.
Look – being a longtime Global Supply Chain Manager – there are only a few strong manufacturers of automotove commodities. Good examples of this are castings/brakes components, piston manufacturers, DVD systems, electric motors, glass, seating suppliers. Purchasing managers and agents are tasked with finding the best cost part that meets the spec. Just ask any purchasing agent in the auto industry where they purchase hardware, light assemblies, stereos, etc. The Friday morning Cost Strategy meetings at GM must be bummer for these folks “What are you doing to reduce your commodity costs by 5% next year?” Well, we are now going to get our fasteners from a supplier in China….
As stated numerous times here – “Sourced in the USA” can mean many different things – for example I purchased parts from a USA based company in Portland, OR. They imported parts from Singapore, paid for the shipping and import taxes/duties. They stocked these in their warehouse and sold them under the USA company name with legit headquarters in the USA. Is this part sourced in the USA or is it an imported part? The line is blurry on this.
Most casting and rubber products are rarely made in the USA due to the immense power, safety and pollution requirements here. Parts and assemblies that can be shipped tightly are usually made overseas….e.g. ever see how IKEA stuff is packed? When I worked for a major boat builder, the seat covers and sewn products were made in other countries, but the foam was made here as it was mostly air – no one wants to ship air. Is this seat made in the USA? The frame was and foam was made here, with the hardware, slide mech assembly, and the seat covers made in China. I’ll never forget visiting a sunglass manufacturing company in Xiamen, China. Most major lines were there: Vuarnet, Oakley, etc. This company was very clean, had great quality and all the required equipment. The choice for Vuarnet and Oakley was obvious.
My point is this – there are no borders when it comes to sourcing. A supplier can bury the true origin and genesis of the parts if you want to as long as they can trace the parts if something goes bad. I don’t think it really matters, as long as the engineering and quality is designed into the parts initally and also into the final product. Then follow this with quality systems that are in place during the manufacturing process.
Blob
A question like this is pointless, yet sure to attract posts in record numbers. The perfect illustration of the old adage: Opinions are like … everybody has one, and they all stink.
The US Ford Escort was a piece of crap until Ford bit the bullet in 1991 and based it on a Mazda platform. Do I feel bad that Ford financing was able to get her out of an upside-down lease and put her in a reliable, comfortable car at a time when Mazda wouldn’t even talk to her? Hell no.
Many Asian auto companies have design studios in the US and Europe, as well as factories. “American car” is really becoming a meaningless term. That said, if I were looking at two competing models with similar specs, and one was primarily designed and built in the US, I’d lean that way. But it’s awful low on my list of qualifications.
Ford or GM.
That’s it.
The rest is semantics.
Just because you assemble a Japanese car in the US, doesn’t make it American. There are very few Mexicans assembling Fords who believe Fords are Mexican. The question doesn’t even come up in other countries. Do you believe Japanese buyers are asking this question? Do you believe that South Koreans are asking this question?
Of course they are not, because it is a stupid question. What do they drive? Cars from their country of course. They wouldn’t imagine driving anything else. They are too smart to fall for PR crap about that.
We have millions of Americans justifying their auto purchase by means other than nationality. This comes at OUR loss. We get screwed repeatedly because of it. Every Toyota, Honda, BMW, Hyundai, and Nissan should include a trunkful of American pink slips laying off your neighbors. Do you care about this? No, you selfish morons. As long as you got yours, right?
I believe in the global market when the global market is an equal playing field. It isn’t. We’ve opened our gates and exported our jobs and allowed imported vehicles to replace our domestic manufacturing to the point where we can’t go back, and we can’t go forward because the other countries cannot or will not allow a level playing field.
So we are now down to 2, one of which filed bankruptsy last year. Both manufacturers make excellent vehicles. You want to keep your dollars here? You can easily do so and have a great vehicle at the same time. You don’t care? Then go ahead and line up at the unemployment office with your neighbors.
VD – I’ll make you a deal. You walk in to the Marysville, Ohio plant where my 2010 Accord was built, and repeat that simplistic, neanderthal rant to the guys on the factory floor and I’ll pay your hospital bills.
Time to trot out this post I did a while back.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/todays-avante-is-tomorrows-elantra/#comment-1641977
Toyota and its vendors pay some of my bills, not the so called American companies that have all abandoned California. I rent homes to Toyota engineering and marketing families who work in Torrance, California, USA. I drive a Toyota Tundra that was designed in California and assembled in Indiana with 85% US/Canada parts content according to the sticker. The Dodge Ram I looked at was Mexican made with only 60% US/Canada parts content. So, the Tundra is more “American” than the Ram by my definition.
I have a strong bias against China for my own political reasons, but it is impossible to live a normal life without buying Chinese products. I do try hard to buy from the US, Canada, Latin America, Eurozone, or any part of Asia except the PRC, and in that order.
A large number of my neighbors build engines and transmissions for Toyota. Every time I turn around Toyota is donating to my community, too. They just dropped $100,000 or so on a pool at the local YMCA. They donate to the mountain bike races and the 5K runs that I do. They donated $1mil to the medical school my brother is attending in WV. So, Toyotas for me, I suppose.
It also helps that my 4Runner is a great vehicle. I wouldn’t hesitate to buy another Toyota.
Just as dropping the atomic bomb cost 200k lives, but saved perhaps a million, so buying ‘foreign’ may actually save American jobs.
TTAC is that you can’t buy an “American” car today, nor may it be best to do so.
Here’s why: The economy is not closed. If you purchase a foreign nameplate to save money or reduce repair bills, you will spend the savings elsewhere, which is money redirected into the local economy. Likewise, if you are car-poor because you bought “American”, you won’t have any discretionary income to spend elsewhere. This costs jobs.
I’m a flag-waver, too, but that does not translate into supporting overpriced UAW labor, or being stuck with a poor-quality vehicle that costs so much to maintain that I can’t spend money elsewhere.
My Mazda 6 was assembled in Flat Rock, Michigan. I wouldn’t have bought it if it hadn’t been assembled in the USA. But who knows where the parts came from, and frankly, I don’t care.
Anyway, the Mazda 6 was the closest vehicle I could find to what I wanted in a car — not quite exactly what I wanted, because no such vehicle is currently offered by any manufacturer, but close. Really close. And so I don’t care who engineered it.
Moreover, it wasn’t a piece of GM junk that depreciated with incredible speed as soon as it was driven off the lot, a car which has had the quality engineered out of it by GM’s managers and technical staff.
So, my question to the B&B is twofold. First: Are you interested in purchasing an “American car”? If so, what is the working definition you use for that phrase?
Yes, I’m interested in an American car – for the same reasons I’m interested in an American toaster, shoes, basketballs, tents, boats, ….. the more we produce here, the more jobs there are here and the more money that circulates in our own economy.
That said, a car must be reliable, and for a long time, it wasn’t really possible to buy a reliable class competitive car built here. I believe that has changed – and the Cruze appears to be a good example.
We’ve been long time Honda buyers, and they’ve been very good cars for us, but I think trying a Ford or GM car (couldn’t give me a Chrysler) is only a small risk these days. IOWs, I’m ready to give America a second chance. No flag waving, no patriotism (I’m a vet, I don’t need to prove anything) just economic common sense. I’m better off if my neighbors have jobs.
My definition of an American car is about the same as yours Jack – designed/engineered here, assembled here, using parts made here.
But I realize it’s a sliding scale. I’m probably not going to find something that passes every test. Even if I do, it has to be a vehicle that I’d want – I’m not in the market for a Jeep, or anything Jeep-like.
IMO the Cruze is more American than the Fusion. It creates (or at least preserves) more jobs than does a car built in Mexico. I live in MI, and I care more about folks in Ohio than I do about folks in Mexico. Bloods thicker than water.
1st choice- company headquartered in the US- built in the US
2nd choice- company headquartered in the US- built in foreign country
3rd choice- foreign company- US built
4th choice- foreign company- foreign built
2 is a better choice over 3 because only ~11% of the money spent/made on a product is in manufacturing. 89% or so is spent/made on designing, engineering, marketing, R&D and administration.
Plus the US based companies pay more taxes.
The trick is knowing the companies that are American. Hellmann’s mayonnaise, Dove soap, Stouffer’s meals, Breyer’s Ice Cream- All foreign
Luckily as Americans, we actually have choice. To buy whatever we want, live where we want, say what we want, and do what we want. So, what difference does it make where the car was built, sourced, engineered, or designed. Spend your money on the vehicle that best suits your needs regardless of where it comes from if coming from one place even makes sense. But don’t ever..ever..get satisfied in your choice as doing the right thing because it was right for America because it keeps some American jobs or because it rewards a superior foreign product so you’ll spend less on maintenance and free up that money to spend on other things. The logic wormhole on rewarding one entity or punishing another entity because of your purchase of a specific vehicle flies in the face of the unfathomable, unbalanced, vertigo inducing economics of regulations, tariffs, subsidies, quotas, trade pacts, corporate ownership, taxes, election cycles, and of course greed.
I think the nationality of a car is given mostly by the country, philosophy and conditions for which it was designed. In this globalized world, all the things Mr. Baruth is requesting is near impossible.
However you can see an American car and see how different is from a car designed outside the US. Examples:
Dodge Neon. A compact car that is different from what an European or Japanese equivalent would be. Sadly, they replaced it with the POS Caliber, and soon with some Fiat derived car. And it had: space, fuel economy, style (the cab forward was latter copied by Honda) and nice handling if we can believe was has been written about it.
Chevrolet Impala. As much as I don’t like it being FWD, I can accept the fact that moving from RWD to FWD was produced by “evolution”. Again, you won’t be able to find a similar car outside US.
ANY Full-size pick-up truck/BOF full size SUV: Do I need to explain?
Chrysler Minivans: Those things are bigger and more comfortable than say a Lancia Phedra (which is comfortable too) or a Renault Space. If you compare it with a Toyota Previa, you’ll see the difference in philosophies there too.
Heavy duty trucks: COE designs are rather rare in US. Very popular and diffused in the rest of the world. Even Hino had to make a truck with a front end, I guess, to sell them.
I’m not from the US, but usually try to purchase made in Venezuela goods as far as I can. Of course, I will not buy crap just because is made here. Two weeks ago I was at the supermarket and people was choosing imported cheese like the local made one was the plague (there was even one brand made by a government owned company). I purchased the local product, because it was good. Also because I help support those factories. I even try to purchase products made in my local town or state (even knowing how full of FAIL these places are) to support these people.
Every time one person purchases one of the cars we assemble, they pay MY salary, and not the one from a Brazilian, Mexican or another country engineer. At least on the assembly side. And hence, I try to do my best so the product we produce has good quality and our customers are satisfied.
Soon I’m moving to Oz (inshallah) and I’ve made a commitment to myself in purchasing a local engineered and assembled car. I like the Commodore and hopefully will be able to get a V8 version new before this “green” hysteria bans “popular” priced V8 cars from the market. And plan to do so on as many products as possible (as done here).
Mr Baruth, purchasing your “dream” car will be next to impossible. However you can still purchase a US engineered car, from a US company with mostly US components, since all of them still have in the market a lot of examples. You may have to get to a compromise on the site of assembly.
I can’t figure out what an “American” car is, so I don’t try. Everyone has a different answer, and some will even try to rationalize why a built-in-Ohio Cruze is “American” whereas a built-in-Ohio Accord is not.
A company doesn’t earn my business merely due to the flag that flies above their headquarters. I buy what best suits my needs, regardless of label. Over the years this has included “American” cars built in the US or Canada, “Japanese” cars built in the US or Japan, a Swedish car built in Sweden, and “German” cars built in Hungary or Finland. My next car might be a Japanese built in Japan or perhaps an “American” built in Mexico.
As a software developer, I am all too familiar with the reality of jobs in my industry being “offshored.” But I don’t expect customers to give me their business simply because of my nationality. If my competitors–many of which are based in “low-cost” countries–can do the same job more cost-effectively, I wouldn’t expect to keep the job for long. Consequently, I need to continuously improve, to ensure that I am adding value over the competition. I expect that the automakers should behave no differently.