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There seems to be an appetite debate about this issue, not just here at TTAC but in the industry as a whole. Just look the philosophical divide between the “One Ford” strategy and Volkswagen’s 2011 Jetta strategy. So instead of filling up the Jetta review comments with this debate, let’s have it out… right here, right now.
84 Comments on “Ask The Best And Brightest: How Much Do European Cars Need To Be Changed For The US Market?...”
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CUPHOLDERS baby, CUPHOLDERS
Put me down for “nothing changed but added cupholders”.
Whenever a European vehicle is brought over to North America, the marketing/main selling point is the European heritage and driving experience.
Then I read the reviews and see “the company decided to re-tune the suspension and tweak the steering for American tastes. Also this awesome feature isn’t going to be offered here even optionally- .” That’s BS. If I wanted an American-style car I’d shop for one.
I’m not interested in the vehicular equivalent of The Olive Garden.
To be fair… There’s some difference in tastes obviously. Europeans except a base Golf to have 80hp, summer tires and a manual transmission. Americans want twice the power, an automatic and a trunk. Therefore America gets stuff like torque converter automatics and naturally aspirated engines, which Europeans don’t in Golfs and Jettas.
Does the Cruze really have a better interior? All I see in the pictures is hard plastic with a bit of cloth on it. European reviews have not saud lots of kind things about the Cruze’s interior materials…
What ajla said.
It’s more than a philosophical issues if the US and Canada are set with different safety/emissions standards combined with the dealer structure. Otherwise VW could sell 1.4L Polo GTIs in addition to decontented Jettas. They wouldn’t have to import many and the price may preclude a lot of sales, but at least there would be a an opportunity for some sales.
But on the philosophical side, the idea that nothing is worth doing unless it’s done on a massive scale is our biggest limit on freedom of choice in cars (in particular transmissions).
Canada actually now accepts cars that meet *either* US *or* European bumper standards. If the US only accepted the European bumper standards, too, we would see a substantial increase in European models here.
Well, the seats certainly need to be changed…
see –
http://www.littlepaul.com/funny/paris.html
Good catch!
Yeah, it’s more than cupholders. First, the speedo has to read miles per hour. I rented a car with Canadian plates and only when the cars whizzed by on the highway did I notice the KMH. The MPH readings were too small to be useful so forget the dual readings gauges.
Next, all capacities must be in even quarts and gallons. Three of my last five oil changes, I had to take the car back to siphon out the excess.
Third, the nuts and bolts should be as close as possible to American SAE sizes. There should be no need to buy a set of metric tools.
Fourth, safety doesn’t matter much anymore, since neither the US nor Euro test protocol is better, just different. Cars are much safer today, and learning defensive driving makes you safer than the add-ons.
Finally, emissions are miniscule compared to the ’60s. I’m not willing to pay for that last 2% improvement, it’s not cost effective. Besides, global warming is a crock, but we may need to keep putting out some greenhouse gasses to keep the next ice age from hitting too soon.
Or, you know, Americans could adopt the metric system, like the rest of the world.
I can tell who doesn’t wrench. Most modern cars(American included)have metric fasteners already.
@CanadianRevolver: Except that every Canadian I’ve met speaks in terms of ‘miles’ for distance, unless they’re dumbing down to my level. :)
Congress passed the Metric Conversion Act of 1975, which was signed by Gerald Ford on December 23, 1975. It’s not so much a matter of not adopting the metric system. The failure is more a matter of ambivalence and a political desire to “please everyone” by changing nothing.
American cars have been metric for years. Some carryover stuff stayed the “stupid” system but that is pretty much gone now. Obviously changing fasteners for different markets is about as useful an idea as using CO2 to combat an ice age, but full-unit capacities is a winner. I’ll also add that since CO2 emissions is not part of emission control, there is no merit in considering it as something that would have to change when shipping a European car here. Of course, scientific research is a crock if you don’t like the answer; Rush told me so.
Don’t change suspension settings, don’t make throttles hair-trigger sensitive, and don’t make changes based on preconceived notions of what Americans might want changed. Please, please keep a manual available as an option. DSGs and the like may post better times but who cares about tenths on the street. Safety and emission stuff is pretty much universal, but pedestrian standards is uglifying a lot of Euro stuff today. Seats have to fit the too-wide posterior of much of America. And decent size instruments please. While it is still a risk, I thing the premium smaller car’s time in the US may finally be here. But, sad to say, most cars are becoming cheaper in terms of detail and material. Take a careful look at cars parked around you. Walking the dog affords an opportunity to size up many makes and models. First to go it seems are the folding side view mirrors. Once standard on all but econo models, they have disappeared on many midsize makes. Prop rods are coming back into vogue…yuk.
Someone explain why wheel diameters are always in inches.
Actually, Congress authorized the metric system in 1866 and defined the “customary” units in terms of the metric units in 1874.
Wheel diameter is STILL measured in inches.
@gslippy
I don’t know if it’s my demographic (I’m under 30), but very few people I know use miles (and most of them are over 50).
When someone tells me a distance in miles I have to do the conversion to make sense of it.
I’m with Canadian Revolver on this one, older Canucks use miles, pounds etc and the younger always use kilometers and kilograms.
We straddle both systems really, distance is meters or kilometers, height is in feet or inches and weight is usually in pounds but meters and kilograms is becoming more popular.
And we don’t say “I’ll have 946 ml of beer”, nor do we say “Give him a centimeter and he’ll take a kilometer”, it just doesn’t sound right.
Canada has had the metric system since 1977-78 so it takes a while to purge out the old system, but it is happening.
Relevant to this debate is what Americans are willing to PAY for a European car contented like it would appear in Europe.
VW cheapened the US Jetta interior to meet a price point. If they hadn’t gotten the impression there was no market for that quality level at that price point, I doubt they’d have bothered to “de-content” it just for us.
So, if the Jetta had a blue oval on it, like the Euro Escort will, and with build materials that are at or above class level, will we be willing to pay $20k for it, instead of $16k? Will we be looking for cash on the hood?
“Relevant to this debate is what Americans are willing to PAY for a European car contented like it would appear in Europe.”
Exactly, the basic point is that the idea of the “Premium Small Car” is still a non-starter in the U.S.
Americans love value, so I think if the next Focus is able to deliver that Euro driving experience + interior design at an American Focus price, they will have a winner. However if they don’t have the necessary features to command the base prices they will have a failure. My hope is that through economies of scale, the premiums they will charge for the car in Europe + China will help offset the thinner profit margins here…
I think the Focus is very important because it will be a gateway for many people into Ford, either after a hiatus or for the first time. Better to lock the market down and build a customer base than to throw away an opportunity to save costs (like Volkswagen seems to be doing).
Too many automakers mistake value for cheap and decontented. The problem is, you lose your core customers hoping to make it up in volume. Never works.
For me, the only worthwhile change would be to improve reliability. It’s the major reason I bought an Infiniti rather than an Audi, BMW or Porsche.
I’m too busy driving to use cup holders, Bluetooth or Ipod.
+1
I actually wouldn’t miss if cupholders dissapeared. I don’t own an ipod. Using BT phone is a pain since I have to take my hearing aid out before sticking the thing in my ear. I’ve never found a bluetooth headset that compared to my ~ $150 ea custom made hearing aid molds…
+1 Also.
That and 4-valve heads, aluminum blocks, some kind of VVT, maybe Variable Intake, DI, Slushboxes that all have paddles or a respectable “Manual” mode, 4-wheel-disc brakes (AHEM, VW!).
The mileage should be at least 30.
Hopefully, a 4-door mid-size sedan would not weigh more than 3300lbs.
And because of our highways + onramps, as opposed to a lot of ‘Old-Town’-driving in Europe, the car should have approx a minimum ~0.05 Power/Weight Ratio.
The minimum tire sidewall height on the “Jr. Performance” cars, like a GLI should be 50-series. Anything lower than that, not on an M3/5 is going to get trashed on the crappy roads of the Northeast.
And not that I want it myself, but the American versions have to be a shade bigger, at least in terms of rear-seat legroom.
And cupholders.
Otherwise, keep the euro handling, steering, suspension, feel, innovation, styling, etc.
Some changes are absurd. In the Phaeton, they made the Euro LED rear amber turn signal lights flash red in the US.
You can’t say it was an aesthetic decision, since the units look exactly the same when off. And when on, the US-red flashing LEDs do not match the mirror amber flashers. So they did not improve the aesthetics… they worsened them!
Good point, I see many European companies wasting their money on changing the rear turning lights from amber to red. They don’t look any better and they are a safety concern. There is a reason European regulations specify amber all around.
Oddly enough, the US allows either amber or red for turn signals. So, there is no regulatory reason to make that change. I prefer amber because the statistics say they are more effective as signal indicators than red ones are … as long as the driver uses the *)(*&) things!
John, I’m with you on amber signals (and people using them). Red rear turn signals makes as much sense as white front turn signals.
But- there are some car buying Americans who feel equally strong about red rear turn signals.
This brought up the interesting rhetoric question. The engineer at BMW North America explained the decision behind the “American” taillamps (combined red turn and brake signals) on the BMW 5-Series (E39) station wagons.
Even though NHTSA permitted the amber turn signal indicators, the “tiny” indicators on BMW E39 station wagons did NOT meet the minimium size requirement.
However, a 2008 U.S. study by NHTSA (the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) suggests vehicles with amber rear signals rather than red ones are up to 28% less likely to be involved in certain kinds of collisions, and a 2009 NHTSA study determined there is a significant overall safety benefit to amber rather than red rear turn signals.
http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#docketDetail?R=NHTSA-2009-0095
NHTSA has put out the notice of rule-making proposal whether to mandate the amber turn signal indicators. Many of feedbacks were overwhelmingly in favour of amber turn signal indicators with many of them screaming to mandate right away.
Personally I would only require systems to be changed to US standard measurements and meet the federal safety standards with some exceptions: headlamps and 5mph bumper standards. If we really wanted to go all out and make the world a better place, we should harmonise our regulations and testing procedure with the EU.
Okay, let me throw in a few data points, from a guy I know who used to work at Lotus, for the USA homologation of the Lotus Elise a while back. To meet USA specs a huge amount of engineering work was needed: 9 months to redesign the car (including drivetrain, which took most of the work), 10 months to do new tools, 8 months for durability and performance testing, 6 months validation, and 2 months pre-production builds. These were total times needed, run a lot in parallel — not serially — so don’t add them all up for total calendar time, which in fact was 16 months start to finish.
Other fun facts: 1,200 hours on the dynomometer; over 500,000 miles of on-the-road or virtual testing, for evaporative and exhaust emissions; ride & handling, climate, crash, pavement, low-speed durability (2 x 45,000 miles), high-speed durability (30,000), hot test in Arizona, cold test in Sweden, (America generally having greater climate extremes than say the UK…),alpine climb/descend at Nurburgring, wind tunnel, brakes, NVH (noise vibration harshness).
This all added about 150 pounds of weight versus the EU version.
He guessed this all cost $20-$40 mm. I don’t know the split between what HAD to be done for the USA (regulatory) and what they WANTED to do for the USA (e.g. adapt the suspension for our potholes), but he thought it was maybe 70/30. A lot of it is really dumb stuff, like European windshield wiper cover regulations using different calculations than USA regs, etc. And for a lot of stuff even if the USA reg is not substantially different from the EU reg you often have to repeat the test anyway.
Anyway, that might give you some idea of total “must do” costs.
Now as to the “should do” costs(like expanding the EU cupholders for our Big Gulps), beats me, you guys can still argue that one!
He guessed this all cost $20-$40 mm….
A lot of it is really dumb stuff, like European windshield wiper cover regulations using different calculations than USA regs, etc. And for a lot of stuff even if the USA reg is not substantially different from the EU reg you often have to repeat the test anyway.
Good stuff.
Do you have a feel for costs going the other way?
What’s the damage for certifying the average Corvette for Euro use?
Glenn,
Unfortunately, the Can/Should debate is probably moot. Any hopes for harmonization of occupant protection and emissions regs through the Fed/NHTSA were crushed in the congressional reaction to the Toyota SUA deal.
I”m for as little changes as possible. I’ll go with cupholders and converting from metric to english. I’d even go one step further, I’d adopt Euro NCAP safety standards and open up our market to ANY European or Asian car that can meet this international standard.
For the record, you want your units converted to US customary units not “English” units.
England uses British Imperial units (many of which share their names with US units but are in fact different). We also increasingly use the metric system here for… well pretty much everything except speed and distances between places (distance to junctions, heights etc. are increasingly shifting to metric) so you’d probably be just as confused – if not more – if auto makers shipped you cars whose gauges read in “English” as if they just shipped ’em metric!
These are mostly general guidelines for any car, not just imported versions of European cars.
Good cupholders are a must. A versatile cupholder can also be a cell phone holder, iPod holder, and sunglass holder.
Don’t bother bringing the base model engines over. Nobody in the US will buy a 1.4 liter non-turbo Golf. Make everything available with a decent automatic (6-speed auto or DSG).
If you soften the standard suspension for the bad roads in the US, make the native version available as a no-cost option.
If you offer a diesel engine in Europe, offer one in the US, as well.
Don’t make the rear turn signals red just because the US regulations (stupidly) allow it and many idiots in the US don’t understand how to use turn signals.
In order to be competitive, a vehicle sold in the US should generally have standard seatback pockets or nets on the backs of the front seats, cruise control, lighted vanity mirrors, an MP3 CD player *and* USB and auxiliary audio inputs, stability control, and auto up/down power windows. Nissan, Mazda, Toyota, Lexus, and Infiniti are leading the way with keyless ignition systems, so you’d better plan to have that soon, as well.
Don’t delete features from year to year or from one generation of a vehicle to another. See various GM models (particularly from 2000-2004), the Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique, Dodge Intrepid, and Jeep Grand Cherokee for examples of what NOT to do.
If you have a somewhat-unique feature that makes sense (like GM’s switch from a steering column ignition to a dashboard ignition in the 1998 Malibu), make them standard across your entire model lineup instead of hemming and hawing about what to do with it.
If you have a somewhat-unique feature that makes sense (like GM’s switch from a steering column ignition to a dashboard ignition in the 1998 Malibu), make them standard across your entire model lineup instead of hemming and hawing about what to do with it.
(segfault’s comment)^2
One of the most maddening things about driving rental vehicles is figuring out exactly how the controls are laid out. I can live with knowing that, for instance, Ford vehicles will not fully match control configurations from other manufacturers. What I cannot stand is when different vehicles from the same manufacturer have wildly different control layouts. In my rental experience, Chrysler has been a consistent offender in this area.
I’ve given up looking for trunk release buttons/levers on rental cars — it’s simply ridiculous. I just get out and use either the remote or the key (if there is no remote).
And sadly most non-European cars don’t allow you to open the trunk without some sort of a key, even if the doors are unlocked.
+1
And while you’re at it, standardize that on the wiper stalk, pressing the stalk upward increases the speed of the wipers, not pressing it downward. There is no other control on the vehicle for which pressing downward increases rather than decreases something (brake/accelerator movements are foreward/backward, not up/down). Just because everyone has come to expect it that way because that’s how it is on the “best selling car in America,” the Toyota Camry, doesn’t mean that’s the way it should be.
The product availability in the US is fine with a few exceptions. It’s a result of American regulations and American market tastes.
American enthusiasts might SAY they want a 1.1L Fiat Panda, but that vehicle will not sell here. And if it did, the public would start screaming when they see a “60 Minutes” special on alleged safety problems with tiny cars. TTAC is that Americans want the market they have.
The Tato Nano is an extreme example of how unpalatable a foreign car would be to the American market in its current form. Its safety, performance, and comfort don’t fit this market. To do so would be to drive the price up to $8k. At that point, you may as well buy a Hyundai Accent with some pedigree.
While I doubt many American enthusiasts lament the lack of 1 liter and below engines, almost everyone would love more diesel availability, especially in smaller trucks and SUVs. I had a Mitsubishi Montero (Pajero and Shogun elsewhere) that I absolutely loved. The only reason I traded it was because it guzzled premium fuel and with my commute at the time I was spending close to $400 a month in gas alone. If Mitsu had offered that vehicle with a nice fuel sipping diesel like they do elsewhere in the world, I’d probably still be driving it.
That video is further proof that just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should.
Steps the U.S. must do in order to achieve automotive world peace:
1) Abolish FMVSS and adopt EU standards for lighting, impact protection, etc. Perform Euro NCAP testing.
2) Raise standards, testing, and cost for obtaining a driver’s licence dramatically.
3) Make some subset of the interstate highway unlimited-speed (Montana???).
4) Allow foreign manufacturers to import cars here which comply with EU standards with no changes other than a dual-unit or switchable-units speedometer/odometer. Or just be smart and adopt the metric system for roads.
5) Let automobile manufacturers flood the markets with a plethora of choices of manual-shift, diesel-engined, rear-wheel-drive wagons.
On a more serious note, the comments above re: “round” capacities in quarts/litres… none of my last four cars (a mix of VW and BMW) have had engine oil, transmission, fuel, coolant, or windshield washer fluid capacities that were round numbers in English units and I’ve managed just fine. Most of those weren’t even “round” capacities in metric units, either!
1) I’m pretty sure the US/Canada is still a larger market than all of the EU, so why don’t the EU just adopt our standards?
2) This has nothing to do with vehicle availability. I certainly don’t want a license to cost more, and while I’m not necessarily against making the test a bit more difficult, we don’t need to go overboard.
3) Montana no longer has unlimited speed highways, the state caved to the feds in exchange for getting federal highway money.
4) It makes sense that vehicles that pass the standards of other developed nations should be able to import/export freely. As for the Metric system thing, I guess the US is outnumbered there and we can’t expect the rest of the world to adopt our system, but the logistics of converting the US to metric are so ridiculously unwieldy that it will never happen.
5) No one is forbidding any automaker from making RWD vehicles or wagons, and I’d certainly love to see more of the latter. As far as diesels go, the problem is California, who feels they somehow have the right to dictate emissions laws for the rest of the country. Get rid of our ridiculous particulate emissions and NOx level standards, bring the good diesel fuel here, and we’re golden.
California only has the right to set standards for in state new vehicle purchases. Many other states have chosen to adopt California’s standards, but that doesn’t mean California has in some way leveraged those states into doing so.
@NulloModo
“As for the Metric system thing, I guess the US is outnumbered there and we can’t expect the rest of the world to adopt our system”
We are really outnumbered, one of three countries not using the metric system which, btw, is officially called the International System.
The “standard” system is not ours. We got it from the Brits.
From Wikipedia (about US):
“The country retains United States customary units, constituted largely by British imperial units such as yards, miles, and degrees Fahrenheit. Distinct units include the U.S. gallon and pint volume measurements. The United States is one of three countries, along with Burma and Liberia, that has not officially adopted the metric system. However, metric units are increasingly used in science, medicine, and many industrial fields.”
@NulloModo-
“1) I’m pretty sure the US/Canada is still a larger market than all of the EU, so why don’t the EU just adopt our standards?”
a) With the exception of a few niche high-performance models like the Corvette, I don’t exactly hear the rest of the world clamoring to get American cars exported there. However, there does seem to be a lot of desire in the U.S. among those who care about cars and don’t see them merely as appliances to have European cars imported here.
b) For a background of other reasons I’ll not enumerate here, I suggest you refer to the section entitled “Regulatory Comparison” of the wikipedia article on NHTSA. This statement illustrates it pretty well: “Other lighting-related lags attributed to cost-effectiveness regulations selectively obeyed by NHTSA are evident in American regulations; for example, virtually every country in the world has since at least the early 1970s required rear turn signals to emit amber light so they can immediately be discerned from adjacent red brake lamps. U.S. regulations still permit rear turn signals to emit red light, citing the same cost-effectiveness regulations.” In other words, U.S. safety standards are not necessarily authored with any objective regard for absolute safety of vehicles, but rather, in response to heavy lobbying by domestic car manufacturers. Look what it’s gotten us: red turn signals to save a few pennies on every vehicle produced, those horrendous automated seatbelts in the ’90s, and the requirement to use sealed-beam headlamps long after the rest of the world were using those of the replaceable-bulb variety.
John –
I guess my issue with CA is that they know they are such a large market that by enacting their own rules as they do that they are going to force the automakers to bend their products for the whole nation to what CA wants. I’d like to see an automaker go the other way and release a car specifically for sale only in non-CA emissions states.
Lucian –
I know the system originally came from the English, but I always feel a bit odd calling it the English System or the Imperial System as England, at least for the most part, no longer uses it. I’m not anti-metric, and it does make a lot of sense for science and engineering as it makes the math much much easier working all in base 10.
I can just see what would happen if the US tried to adopt it – there would be a huge debate and shouting match over whether or not it was constitutionally legal for the federal government to make the decision for the whole country, some states would adopt the system, others wouldn’t, there would be years of planning and fighting about how to role the system out, and in the end we’d end up with a splintered system of weights and measures in this country, have going metric, half staying English, and you’d have the ridiculous sort of situation we have today with Daylight Savings Time where certain counties out in the midwest don’t even acknowledge it.
I think the problem with adopting metric in the U.S. is it’s too easy to ignore the ongoing costs of _not_ adopting it. I’ve worked with both systems day-to-day (buying food, gasoline, etc.), “wrenched” cars with either system, and got an engineering degree where I had to learn equal amounts of book knowledge in each system.
IMHO, in the long run I think the juice is worth the squeeze. (Juice in mL, not fl oz.)
@NulloModo-
“1) I’m pretty sure the US/Canada is still a larger market than all of the EU, so why don’t the EU just adopt our standards?”
No, it isn’t, EU market is larger by more than 30%.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/first-sales-numbers-for-june/
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/europe-in-june-2010-back-to-the-new-normal/
@NullModo,
Not to mention that Australia, China, Japan, Russia, and many more countries have increasingly abandoned their own automotive regulations and adopted more and more of ECE regulations. US and Canada are only countries that require their own automotive regulations.
In 2000, Canada was this close in abandoning its CMVSS, which is almost a mirror-image of US FMVSS, for the full ECE regulations. The Big Three threatened with economic sanctions by moving their Canadian production to the USA should Canada move toward ECE regulations.
Montana DID NOT abolish the unlimited speed limit due to the pressure from the Feds. It was due to that stupid driver who challenged the “reasonable and prudent speed limit” as being vague and too broadly interpreted. Montana Supreme Court declared “reasonable and prudent” unconsitutional. Consequently, the Montana leglislature imposed the speed limit of 75mph.
When I owned the Buick and Chevrolet cars (from the 1980s), I serviced those cars myself and had never used the US tools. I am not sure what is the fuss about the US and metric system in the cars.
+1 oliver twist on Montana speed limits. Here’s the gory detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States#Montana
Not saying what they SHOULD do but from observation hers is what they have been doing:
Step one: Remove Diesel Engine and small displacement gas engine from options list.
Step two: Increase weight by 200Kg
Step Three: Add Cupholders and larger seats.
Step Four: Tack on ugly DOT-compliant side and tail lights.
Step Five: Ugly up the overall profile somehow.
Step Six: Jack up the price.
Step Seven: Complain that we don’t buy them, since after all, we begged for one here JUST LIKE THE EURO VERSION!
VWOA also does other odd things. Nothing like a manual 4 door Golf for a decent price remains in the VW lineup; closest are the $24205 Golf TDI and the $25060 GTI.
Just got told this by a VW dealer. There are no manual 4 door Golfs. Really? I believed him, and you endorsed the idea. The $24K for a manual 4 door Golf is steep, even if it is a diesel…
It’s hard to blame VW for that – I’ve read on the “Ask a Salesman” thread on VWVortex that base 4-door Golf manuals were lot queens. About half of GTI and TDI drivers like a stick shift, so they are still available.
Just send all the station wagons over here and I’ll be happy.
Here is what I believe are the criteria for a European car to succeed here.
1) U.S. proportions. Specifically it can’t be a skinny car like a Passat or Malibu. They do not look right to us, and give up interior space without any benefit due to our wide roads here.
2) A good automatic transmission.
3) Competitive power-trains. for example..I’ve yet to experience a Euro turbo 4 that is as satisfying as competitors V6 engines. The engine must match up well with an AT.
4) Yes, cup holders…. and a nice center console with armrest too.
Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volvo and Mini have done just fine selling US market cars with relatively minimal changes from their EU market baselines. All of the worlds exotic and super luxury cars start life in the EU.
There are a few other vehicles which are substantially the same in both markets such as the Honda Fit/Jazz, the Nissan Versa and the Acura TSX (nee Honda Accord in the EU).
Personally I think VW is engaging in a bit of snobbish Germanic arrogance when they blame the primitive buyers of the US for not having the good sense to pay what VW would like them to pay for it’s obviously superior products. VW has repeatedly shot itself in the foot in the US market with terrible after sale support and reliability nightmare vehicles. VW has added to the nightmare by having an array of Oh So Special VW Approved motor oils without the use of which they tell customers to forget the warranty. VW of America and the parent company have done an absolutely horrible job on the product and support side of selling in the US market. VW’s horrific sales results in recently years are not the fault of ignorant consumers who aren’t willing to pay what Germany says they should be paying for Mexican built cars.
US consumers are not to blame for the Routan.
US consumers are not to blame for absurdities like the W8 Passat or the Phaeton.
US consumers are not to blame for the coil pack nightmares and the ham handed way VW dealt with it.
US consumers are not to blame for the massive engine sludge problems in turbo-4 powered Passats. VW messed that one up all by itself with a four quart sump, tiny oil filter and 10,000 mile recommended oil change intervals while originally saying that any off the shelf consumer motor oil was suitable for the job.
Volkswagen has repeatedly blown it in the US by its own decisions, not thanks to the ignorance of US buyers. Now VW’s answer to dismal sales results is the further cheapening of the product. What possible reason do US buyers have to take yet another chance on VW?
I thought the Versa was a gussied up Logan. What’s the EU version of the Versa?
VW has added to the nightmare by having an array of Oh So Special VW Approved motor oils without the use of which they tell customers to forget the warranty.
This modus operandi is not exclusive of VW. Fiat also does so with their Selenia motor oils.
I think the same applies to other euro brands. Also servicing HAS to be done at their stealerships, because they’re the only ones with the galactic tools needed to fix them.
The Peugeot based cars we assemble have very shade tree mechanic “friendly” torx bolts everywhere.
Huh? – Torx bolts are a brilliant design. Higher torque limit than an allen bolt, less clearance required than a hex bolt, plus the bolt locates on the tool, which makes handling the smaller panel scew sizes much easier.
Besides, any ‘shade tree mechanic’ who doesn’t own a set of torx bits probably shouldn’t be messing around with a modern vehicle anyway.
The short wheelbase version of the Renault/Nissan B platform is used on these vehicles:
– Renault Clio III
– Renault Twingo II
– Renault Modus
– Nissan Micra/March III (the one that just got replaced)
– Nissan Cube
The long wheelbase version is used on the Nissan Versa/Tiida, Note, Juke and NV200 commercial van.
A modified version is used by Dacia (Sandero/Logan/Duster).
@dr.Nick
It’s called the Nissan Tiida, although the Tiida, Micra, Note, Logan, etc. are all related.
@NulloModo
The EU is now a larger market than the US with a total turnover of 6 trillion dollars a day. Not sure what happens if you combine the US with Canada though.
To be honest Europeans simply don’t like American cars. They go for the European designed Ford’s and Vauxhall’s but not cars like Cadillac’s.
Cars like the Ford Flex and Lincoln cheese grater (or whatever you call that ridiculous car) will never sell here because the styling is totally out of step with Europe.
Until they get exposed to American size cars and engines in a cheap gasoline country.
Then, you’ll see how much they prefer their underpowered cars.
With regards to Metric and Canada, people like a lot of us “oldies” grew up with the Imperial system from the United Kingdom, now that we have gone Metric we oldies have to change and adjust and it’s a big thing really, also Canadian Vehicles have to have Day time running lights, again adapted for Safety from European Manufactures. Gasoline is sold in Litres, makes Gasoline look that not expensive I suspect, as well as Highways are marked in Metric as well just like most Countries in Europe except the UK, In the UK Petrol(Gasoline) is also sold in Litres and as someone said Your dash board Speed is also Metric, I sort doubt that the USA will ever change, in the UK there is a movement for Highways to change to the same way we have here as well as every where else, would be better for people like us that sometime visit the UK and have to learn how to drive on the other side of the Road, especially as the UK becomes more European, Truck traffic from Europe has many problems right now driving in Britain.
Err sorry incorrect. The UK uses a mix of imperial & SI units. In the UK roads are in metric (mph, yards etc) fuel is sold in ltrs
@Geo Levecque
“In the UK Petrol(Gasoline) is also sold in Litres and as someone said Your dash board Speed is also Metric”
Not entirely true. Yes, there is a KMH scale on the speedometer, but the bigger (and more clearly labelled) one is still MPH.
@colin42
“In the UK roads are in metric (mph, yards etc)”
I’m guessing this is a mistake, but just to clarify, we use imperial on the motorways, not metric.
To add further confusion, petrol is sold by the litre, but fuel economy figures are stated by mp(Imp)g, not litres per 100km.
There was a strong movement (insert your own “faeces” based joke here) by the EU to metricise the UK. But only recently, the EU threw the towel in and said “They’ll give us access to their markets, waters and resources, but they won’t give up the imperial system!”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988521.stm
Simply harmonize all the standards (lighting, safety, emissions, etc.) so that all USA/Canada and European cars can be sold on both continents. The cost for introducing a vehicle from one market to another will be reduced to shipping, marketing, and product support. Actual sales will describe what consumers want on both sides of the pond. The truth will out.
Emissions are the hardest part, I think. To do that would require a new bureaucracy that includes the Europeans, Feds, and CARB, plus a redo of the 1965 Clean Air Act that gave CARB its special status. I don’t see any of this happening until utter calamity strikes with the federal government essentially collapsing under the weight of its own debt and the US wakes up to the reality of a less vaunted spot in the international pecking order.
People buy cars to suit their environments and the European car environment can be different to our own having less space and greater tax incentives for smaller cars.
Having said that, the answer to your question is “Depends on what car”. Larger cars like the Audi A8, BMW 5 and even C class don’t need much in the way of adaption as the formula of space and big engines fit perfectly into the US market. However, some of their smaller cars are clearly lost in translation. Just like the Mustang and F150 will never make it big in Europe, many of Europe’s smaller offering make no sense here. For example the small station wagon – it makes sense in Europe as it is the only way to get space and practicality while her in the US you can just buy a CUV or SUV and get even more space and utility for much the same money. Likewise with super hot hatches – why spend $30K+ on a hatch when you can get a 370Z or some serious American muscle for that kind of money?
Here is something I didn’t see yet. I was always curious why the Ford E150 Van has a minimum displacement of 4.9l I6 and Ford Europe Vans of similar size have minimums of about 2.5l I4. I asked a Brit friend working in the U.S. with exposure to both programs for an explanation and he answered as follows:
In the U.S. the company specification and customer expectation is that a vehicle must go up Eisenhower Pass West of Denver, a 6% grade I believe, at 50-70 MPH (exact detail probably a trade secret) without over-temping the exhaust or the radiator.
In Europe the corresponding specification and customer expectation is “get to the top of the hill”.
This accounts for why small, underpowered vehicles are not generally imported into the U.S. Part of the rationalization may be that in the U.S. a lot of people live in proximity to such grades / altitudes, or maybe it is just a learned expecation.
The Chevy Volt will be the first U.S. car to push these limits in that the battery will be dead well before the hill is crested and then it will be a very under-powered gasoline engine.
Uhhh, my ’82 Volvo could climb a 6% grade, at 70-75mph, in fifth gear, without overheating. It had a 2.1L engine and the fuel economy gearing (about 3,000rpm at 75mph). Of course it was maxed out going up a grade like that and this was a lot closer to sea level than Denver is. I could downshift to fourth and maybe get up to 80 :)
I suspect the unwritten expectation is 80mph towing a 10,000 pound boat up that pass or similar long grades in the Appalachians :)
Can anyone elaborate on the specific differences between NA and EU bumper regulations? All I know is that they’re incompatible. Is it size, MPH rating, width, depth?
I would say simplify the designs in order to lower maintenance costs. I have owned two Volkswagen Jettas in recent years (a 2003 GLS and an 2006 TDI). I loved these cars and never had any major problems with them. What I could not live with, and what drove me from VW to Honda, was VW’s insane maintenance costs. $300+ to service the DSG, $500-$1,000+ for the timing belt replacement, etc. Granted these items are not serviced often, but regardless of the maintenance schedule, a VW shouldn’t cost more to maintain than any other comparatively priced car.
I would suggest that US swallows its pride and start adopting the ECE regulations. That would save the domestic manufacturers by able to move the vehicles whenever and wherever the “spontaneous” demand is.
When the fuel price spiked, it takes about 12-16 months to homologate the smaller vehicles for the US market. By time they are ready, the fuel price is lowered so much that the American consumers forgot them and snap up the larger vehicles.
Americans don’t have many choices when it comes to the vehicles, motors, and gearboxes as well as the trim levels. Due to the high cost of homologation for the US market, the importers must selectively choose whatever they think would sell the most in the US.
I would like to see the decent headlamp designs. No, I am not talking about the styles. I am talking about the output and performance. I refuse to hire the Ford vehicles in the US on basis that American Ford vehicles have the WORST peforming headlamps in the world!
A set of side turn signal repeaters (the ones on the fenders behind the front wheels or in the external mirror housing).
It’ll probably never happen in the U.S, but as a Canadian I’d like to see Canada follow our NAFTA partner Mexico and allow both Euro AND North America safety-spec’d vehicles. They can get the best of both! Look at the Ford Mexico site. They sell the US Fusion and the US Edge along with the Euro Focus and Euro Ranger. The US Ranger is the neglected, 12 year old afterthought whereas the Euro one is new for 2010.
Having one standard for the US & Canada and one for everywhere else simply means we don’t get anywhere near the same sort of selection of brands and vehicles sold everywhere else, so our domestic market doesn’t have to be as competitive as they would be elsewhere. Granted, there may not be a whole lot of people interested in a Tata in the US or Canada, but why not let the market decide that?
I wish we had at least the option to buy some of the new wagons or minivans sold in Europe, like a Mazda 6 wagon, Accord wagon or Ford Mondeo wagon, or even a Ford Galaxy.
It’s pretty debatable which standard is better–the North American model seems to have higher safety standards for bumpers but the Euro has higher standards for lighting (I can’t believe the domestic market still allows red turning signals here, as well as not requiring the side repeaters). I wish they’d pick the best of both as a universal standard but it’s so much more about politics than safety these days. So until then, allow both. I don’t read a lot about mass confusion on the roads of Mexico because (gasp!) they allow both!
I think American consumers want European cars to retain good properties like excellent suspension tuning, efficient packaging, high quality interiors, and timeless/conservative styling while minimizing the differences from American market cars that cost money and time.
The high volume engine option should run on 87 octane gasoline. A good automatic transmission option is necessary to achieve high sales volume, but a good manual is a potential selling point. Bonus points for automated manuals like the Volkswagen DSG for the automatic option. High performance all season tires fit the US rapid weather changes better than dedicated summer and winter tires for daily driver cars. The gas tank should fill from the left side of the car. Engineer for long service intervals because any event that takes their car off the road causes major stress for American consumers.
Most Americans prefer a contrasting neutral lighter color in the car interior color scheme, not Johnny Cash all black. To sell in the hot Southern states, tint the glass dark and keep the interior light. Don’t even think about trying to sell a car with burn your skin vinyl seating surfaces. Either use real leather or woven cloth. Air conditioning is necessary both to handle extreme heat and to remove moisture. Cupholders should be able to hold 32oz plastic drink cups.
All they really NEED are detuned engines to run on 87 octane, and an extra 3 inches of suspension travel to deal with the the busted-up US highway system.
I don’t understand the point of this exercise. The Japanese and Koreans already make nice cars for the US market – sometimes making them right here at home. Why bother importing unreliable stuff from Europe?
Re: The Metric System.
“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesman and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do.”
The only thing European car makers need to do to improve their fortunes here is to offer a no-excuses, 100,000 mile bumper to bumper (yes that includes the power window regulators, VW) warranty.
There are just too many horror stories out there that sum up to: you should never own a Euro car out of warranty. And sometimes not even in warranty. And by no-excuses warranty, that implies stories better not pop up all over about “Bad gas” excuses or other foot dragging.
The people who are in their target demographic now were either:
1. raised on Detroit crap in the 70s and 80s, then discovered Honda and Toyota and ain’t going back, or
2. were raised on Honda and Toyota and refuse to conceive of owning a car that isn’t stone reliable.
And I don’t think the Euros have yet learned that in the age of the internet, it’s harder to get away with screwing your customers and keeping your reputation.
Lots of people including me really like European cars but would never buy one on the terms currently offered because of the reputation their reliability and dealer networks have earned. In this country we prize reliability and a hassle-free ownership experience in our cars over most other attributes. We apparently prize it more than others do, given VW’s widespread popularity outside the U.S.