Dan writes:
My detailer suggests giving my year-old (but 20k mile) midnight-blue 911 Carrera 4S car a polish and a paint sealant. Although my detailer assures me it is safe, words like ‘mild abrasive’ and the industrial metal-clad dual-orbit application machine do not sit well with me. I trust that my detailer knows what he is doing, but won’t it eventually grind out my clear coat, with successive polishes? How many polishes does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll? And what does it mean to polish surfaces that have a clear bra application?
Thanks very much, TTAC helped me picking S vs 4S, and I don’t want my baby done wrong.
Sajeev Answers:
Let me get this straight: you drive a one-year-old Porsche. It’s a Carrera 4S with a clear bra, mileage be damned. I’m gonna go waaay out on a limb and assume you have covered parking at home, maybe even at the office. I suspect your paint job is fairly shiny as it sits right now: making it physically impossible to need a polishing compound. This porker is just too new!
This is where everyone should pause for a moment…and realize that people truly, honestly suck. This detailer is in 100% up-sell mode, and there’s a chance his offer might shorten your paint’s lifespan. Dan nailed it, there’s no need to surgically operate (i.e. metal-clad dual-orbit application machine) when a deep tissue massage accomplishes the same thing. And couldn’t we all go for a massage right about now?
No matter, here’s a good rule: never “cut” paint unless there is heavy oxidation from long term exposure to the elements, paint transfer from another object, or severe scratches that can’t be filled in with a wax. And paint sealants, while effective, aren’t significantly better than the old fashioned, semi-annual, wax ‘n buff. Plus, I suspect it costs far, far more.
That said, your car is likely in need of a wax of either a synthetic polymer (6-12 months) or carnauba (deeper shine, 3-6 months) variety. As we all learned from Piston Slap’s trip to Turtle Wax’s Corporate HQ, you have better alternatives. Don’t jump to more aggressive actions, do the easy and most obvious thing first: wash and wax the car.
Bonus! A Piston Slap Nugget of Wisdom:
I hope your detailer knows to NOT put anything on the clear bra, lest it gets burned by friction caused by a buffer (or hand towel) and turn chalky/rough to the touch. But if he has the stones to offer you polish/sealant on a car that’s–relative to other cars discussed in the Piston Slap series–lived a charmed life, all bets are off.
Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com
Sajeev- In defense of the detailer, this car could very well use a polish. Nearly every new car (especially onces of darker colors) are delivered from the dealership with scratches and swirl marks all over them. A proper polish would remove all of these imperfections while a solid wax or sealant would protect the car for years to come.
Todays clearcoats can stand up to many polishes when the detailer is using the proper product and technique. I would suggest that Dan finds a highly reputable detailer (somebody in the local Porsche chapter could likely recommend one) and have him/her take a good look at your car. A knowledgeable and experienced detailer will recommend a solution after actually taking a look at your vehicle.
Those are very good points, though I normally see nothing but stunning paintjobs at Porsche dealers. And you tend to stare at these cars a fair bit on the lot. Judging by his tone, I wonder if Dan really sees that as a problem. If so, he is better served by a more conservative route.
Contrarian’s comment below about clay bar is also a good option.
I agree with Fugue. Even paint that looks perfect in direct sunlight can include scratches/swirls that are masked with fillers – and that is typically what you find at dealers. To REMOVE scratches/swirls you need to use an abrasive – how severe it is depends on the condition of the paint.
Light scratches and swirls are easily filled with a glaze or a wax that has glazing properties to it.
Maybe I’m just lucky, but I can remove most swirl marks with run of the mill carnauba waxes on my light gray car. Black and dark blue will be harder, depending on the vehicle’s condition.
You can hide small scratches with glaze and wax, but you can only remove them by buffing. You can also add swirls by buffing improperly. The correct answer in this case depends on how particular the Porsche owner is, and what the detailer’s work looks like. Proper car wash technique is essential to keeping a newly polished car scratch free.
“I would suggest that Dan finds a highly reputable detailer (somebody in the local Porsche chapter could likely recommend one) and have him/her take a good look at your car.”
I think any detailer would come out with pretty much the same solution as what the dealer suggested. Well, price-wise anyways, as detailers are also in perpetual up-sell mode.
Having worked at a detailing shop for 3 years as a youth I can tell you that whenever we saw a fancy car with a book-smart driver pull in, prices usually went up, and they bought EVERYTHING. (wax, shampoo, leather treatment, etc.) They were also good tippers, as I recall…
Kudos to Dan for at least asking before blindly agreeing with his dealer’s suggested course of action. I would recommend what others have already stated: start with a good wash and a good wax, and see if that cures the issue, if indeed an issue exists… then go further if need be.
Fugue: I’m the original poster. A little twist on my ‘new’ car. I picked it up in Zuffenhausen on July 21 last year, and proceeded to put 17,286 miles on it in three months touring Europe. It’s now up to 29,717 miles. I’m thinking that was in mind when my detailer (home neighbor across the street, who has done this professionally form his shop for about a year now) suggested the polish. Also, if I recall correctly, he actually advocated a paint sealant, but that suggested a need to get the surface “perfect” first and that meant a polish.
Oh, and: http://web.mac.com/stepheda/Grand_Tour_2009/Grand_Tour_2009_Index.html
I would suggest a clay bar treartment, only then if it has visible swirls or scatched. Otherwise save hundreds and wax it with a top notch product.
I love clay bar treatments but they won’t do a thing for swirls/scratches. Matter of fact, they typically cause some minor marring/scratches. Clay bar treatments remove surface contamination and give you the mirror-smooth finish; scratches are beneath the surface and, IMHO, need to polished out. The other alternative is to use a product containing fillers which will hide the scratches for a limited period of time.
Contrarian: I’m the original poster, thanks for the reply. I know all about clay bar. I had that done to my 2002 silver Boxster. Made the car really really smooth and I believe keeps it clean in the dusty Texan environs where I live. The dust doesn’t “stick” as well.
The question I guess I have now is, what does clay baring mean with a clear bra? I got that on the front of the car: the whole hood, whole fenders to the door gap, and the bumper too after the plate holes were plugged and the thing re-painted. I got this clear bra extensive treatment after a run-in with a flying soda can on the interstate. WHACK. Made a one-inch super-gouge down to the grey primer. I believe a clear bra would have helped. PLUS, after 29k miles, especially in the Dallas area which is a continuous construction zone, I had a million rock chips. Guhh.
OK, back on the question: what does clay bar mean for a clear bra?
He needs one of those US$ 11K super car washes.
Paint thickness measurement included.
I’m with Sajeev. If the paint looks glossy and feels smooth to the touch, then I’d just give it a nice wax, possibly even an expensive wax treatment. If it’s a bit rough, then clay bar it, if it has some swirls then I could see having the swirls taken care of before the wax job. What he is proposing would make me cringe as well. How much was he asking for this job?
Alex, I’m the original poster. When part of an overall detail job, $250.
What would make someone NOT a typical 911 owner? The only people I have ever seen driving 911s are old, OLD men. A 911 (particularly a convertible one) seems to me to be the perfect mid-life crisis car.
The local PCA chapter has a membership skewed toward the older crowd, but there are also plenty of 911 drivers who are younger (30’s and even 20’s) and we even have our share of women driving 911’s. There is no “typical” 911 owner.
I’ve already polished my silver, 40k mile 07 335i twice. I use Poorboys Swirl Remover (ssr 2.5 and ssr1), which have very light cutting power. I follow up with Klasse All-in-one and Klasse High Gloss Sealant Glaze.
The prior owner left it somewhat swirled, so I polished it once last summer, and once this summer and have it looking pretty good now. The paint looks deeper. That said, I accidently overheated some paint on this ridge on one of the mirrors and chipped it. Need to be careful on plastic parts with sharp edges- they generate a lot of heat and don’t conduct it away very fast. No biggie though- I was about to take the bumper in for painting to repair some rock chips and curb rash anyway, so I’ll just have ’em paint the mirror cover at the same time.
Anyway, the car looks much better now, but both polishings took me all day. I’ll probably go a few years before polishing again.
So, if your car has noticible swirls (and it probably will, being a darker color), you’ll see improvement by polishing it, and your paint will stand up to quite a few polishings in its life. Your car won’t last forever, so you might as well have it looking spectacular.
That said, if don’t really have much in the way of swirls, don’t polish it.
carve: Thanks for the input; I’m the original poster. Yeah.. I think I’ll stick with normal wash & wax for a good while and once/if I see some dulling, I’ll do the polishing then. And some clay bar along the way. You try that? Wow. Really effective.
It’s a 911. Cover up the paint swirls with some big magnetic numbers and get it out on the track.
So you can get your ass handed to you…
Hey Porschespeed, your anti-911 trolling is getting boring.
Dude. I know what you mean. I intend to go out to the driving school in Alabama at some point too. Anyone out the been there?
And DUDE, I took my car on the Nordschleife, no kidding. I picked it up in Germany. Big goofball me, I only took four laps total. Total goofball. But maybe in a couple years from now, I’m shipping the car BACK, and going to make a vacation of lapping the Nordschleife over and over again. And I’m gonna see if I can break my 178 mph top-speed on the autobahn. oh yeah
Hey Vaujot,
I could not care less if you find my anti-911 rants boring. I know I’m right. Just like every Porsche engineer under the age of 70.
I’m gonna give the gift/gist of ‘Logic101’ here…
How many racecars are fitted in a RE config?
How many Porsches are now fitted with a RE config?
Simply put, if it worked, it would be the standard. RE doesn’t work, therefore everyone avoids it in droves.
Posts on car detailing:
Where obsessive compulsives, anal retentives, product (wax, soap, polish, clay, lather, rinse repeat) fan boys and internet tough guys clean, write, polish, photograph, post, shill and fight.
Instead of drive.
Are there OCD postings on homemakers’ bulletin boards boasting about how clean their floors are?
Again, a classic TTAC comment and the ones near it sum it all up nicely.
(And yes, I realize the irony of being that guy that tries to end yet another pointless debate by linking to an old post. At least I didn’t post about how the search engine could have avoided all of this in the first place.)
Nicely done.
I use whatever wax is in the garage for the 11 year old AMG in Virginia, and it still looks brand new. Meguiar’s detailer takes the leaf stains off easily, when we leave it outside (seldom).
My Florida cars, even the red ones just get the detailer. I notice no difference in paint condition.
Unless he takes it through the automatic car wash each week, any fine scratches and swirls are likely in the minor/filler glaze category.
If it is swirled to the point where it looks nasty in the sunshine and you want the swirls polished out, get references from an independent detailer. This might only be needed every 2-3 years –if– it’s carefully washed by hand.
And if that is still worrisome, just drive fast enough nobody can see the swirls.
PickupMan: Thanks for the reply, I’m the original poster. I’ve never ever put my babies through an autowash. I’ve washed them myself, but, mostly and lately, gotten my detailer to do it. So while there are swirls, it’s not noticeable. The only idea behind the polishing, originally, is to make the paint surface ‘perfect’ before applying paint sealant.
Try Collinite.
Google the name and you’ll find lot’s of happy campers with this relatively unknown carnauba (exceptionally long lasting for a carnauba).
A year-old Porsche that has been pampered probably doesn’t need a cut polish. Easy test is to run finger nails gently on the skyward surfaces. If many tiny bumps are felt (or heard), that is a sign that urban pollution (and metal dust from brake pads) has begun to etch the clearcoat. If this is the case, then a clay bar is the preferred method to remove the zits with least damage to paint. Follow by a hand polishing with a very mild swirl- remover polish. The Porsche is small and polishing it by hand is more like carressing it!
For a couple hundred bucks, you can get the Porter Cable 7424 (?) polisher and all the polishing pads (eshine.com) and remove all the swirl marks yourself easily without causing any damage. I did my black 911S with this set up and the results were simply amazing.
It’s been my experience that after waxing your car with any polish, the car pretty much looks the same. There’s a definite difference between the way carnauba reflects light compared to a synthetic, but I prefer the latter because they just last longer. I’ll get about 8-10 weeks out of any carnauba product, versus say 16-20 weeks out of NuFinish, 20-25 weeks out of Black Magic, and 20-40 weeks out of Turtle Wax Ice paste.
I despise polish products that have little to no cleaning power. It means adding a cleaning product first before you can apply the wax, and I find all-in-one products to produce the same result for less effort. If was entering a concours competition, I would go for those 3 step carnauba products.
I’m currently using Autoglym Super Resin polish. I haven’t used it long enough to know if it’s durable or not, but it is easy to remove and has acceptable cleaning.
As an update, Super Resin lasted only 8 weeks in my climate, while Ice Paste is still going strong after 20 weeks. So much for synthetic durability. I’m switching back.
I think Dan should have his car waxed when HE notices, independent of any third party input or suggestion, that it looks faded or dull. Dealers are very good at selling stuff people don’t need because that’s where most of the money is.
Just drive the thing and hose it off once in a while. I’ve actually had very good luck with the no-brush high-pressure washes at gas stations. I started using them to wash the underside of my cars after DOT salts the roads, but they make the rest of the car look pretty good also.
I’m not going to deny that an exquisitely detailed car, especially a dark one, is a thing of beauty. But if Dan were one of the people who really cared he would have already clay-barred and waxed his car a dozen times by now.
findude: I’m the original poster. I wasn’t referring to if I should wax the car, but if I should polish the car. With the dual-orbit machine and the “mild abrasive”
Actually my Porsche service rep, when I inquired, said it was mostly the heat generated that resulted in the polishing effect, that it helped ‘fill in’ micro-swirl scratches i.e. softening the clear coat.
Adopt a Zen-like life philosophy and never have the least concern about shiny chemical covered surfaces upon thine conveyance again.
The “100 year rule” is eminently applicable here.
The odds of anyone caring or even knowing about your conveyance’s external reflective surfaces a century from now are so negligible, so remote, that any concern or care about the subject now is futile and unworthy of even a nonosecond worth of concern.
But everybody knows the worth of my opinion.
One of the few areas in life where negative numbers apply to the crotchety shanty dweller.
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Dan,
Here’s what I did: Get yourself a Meguiars G110v2 polisher from Amazon $150, a couple of finishing pads $20, Meguiars cleaner carnuba wax $12 and a Mothers clay bar kit. After washing and claying the car, use the DA buffer and the cleaner wax to bring it to a mirror finish. You need nothing harsher unless somebody ruined your finish. I have 3 cars to do, I do them every 6 months, and the machine has already payed for itself. Google G110v2 review, and you will find all you need to know. Do NOT use a regular buffer, it takes many years to learn not to burn paint.
I’d never take a power tool to any car. I once saw a brand new 560 SL, black, on a summer day. The swirls from the buffer were almost like those foil imprints on the back of your credit card. I looked at the owner, who made an “I know” look.
Having a 2003 car with no garage, I wash gently with BMW car shampoo (funny german translated label a plus), and wax with Meguiars Carnauba. Use old but clean towels, with no dryer cloths. Turn frequently, and replace as needed.
Wax each panel alone, twice…the second coat should take next to no wax.
Don’t over wax- and don’t obsess. My pretty blue car is still pretty. Keep it clean, do it yourself, and enjoy the day. Detailer ? I’d as soon pay someone to button my shirt for a new car. Now, if you are dealing with an old car with old paint, then this guy would be worth every cent.
A recently waxed car has a 25 hp gain. I read it on the internet so I know it is true.
But it’s only 10hp at the wheels. Tragic.
speedlaw: Thanks for the input (I’m the original poster), but, plainly, it’s just a pain to do all that work when I can just pay someone. Like mowing the grass. Screw that!
That’s because he used an orbital buffer. Bad move. You need to use a DA with rotation. You will not believe the results. MUCH better results than by hand, and far easier too. I will never go back to hand waxing.
What’s a “DA with rotation”?
Tootsie Pop.
A 1 year old Porsche should not have swirl marks, unless you frequent automatic scrubby car washes I suppose.
My new cars have never needed more than a good claying and a wax. Even brand new the paint will have some contaminants that the clay can take off while being the absolute least abrasive way to do it. You can have your detailer do that, or just do it yourself. The nice thing about clay and a carnauba wax is that you don’t need any power tools to do it, just some pads and microfiber cloths.
I’ve perused the car detailing boards, long enough to see what works well but I got out quick before I got sucked into the lifestyle.
A basic clay, Mothers is fine and there are better ones on the internets, and some Collinite 845 wax is all you need.
I thought I destroyed the paint on my WRX when I overheated my brakes at Thunderbolt and got melted pad flakes all over it. Took me about 4 hours with the clay, then wash and wax and it looked like new again. The amount of polishing to fix that would have taken the clear coat away.
BTW I have clayed and waxed my clear bra and it has worked out just fine so far.
There is a place between detail overkill and not washing your car at all. Just stick with basic proven stuff, don’t experiment, and get on with your life.
Power 6 writes: “BTW I have clayed and waxed my clear bra and it has worked out just fine so far.
There is a place between detail overkill and not washing your car at all. Just stick with basic proven stuff, don’t experiment, and get on with your life.”
Best reply. And glad to hear claying a clear bra is “ok”. Thanks!
Sajeev: Thanks for the reply. You’re right, I park it in a garage at home, but the parking lot at work is open in the bright hot-ass Texan sky. It reached 104 degrees today. I too was thinking the paint might be too new for a polish, but the rationale from my detailer was that the paint sealant would be beneficial in the long term, and that it would be better to put that on top of a polishing.
Normally I would peg my detailer in up-sell mode; however, in this case this is a guy with whom I’ve had an acquaintance for some year: he is my neighbor across the street. He’s been doing this professionally at his shop for about a year, and freelanced mobile detailing before that.
You’re right, that it didn’t seem right to “cut” the paint with a polish if it didn’t LOOK like it needed it. But my detailer, knowing I like the bee-yoo-tiful midnight blue metallic, and have notices swirls when I had the Porsche dealership “detail” my car, said that with a polish the surface would POP and then be the right time to have long-term protection with the paint sealant. I could be wrong but I believe he was trying to be responsive to what I was wanting.
There is one spot on the car where he had already polished: my car got egged on the right rear. Not quite what you think: it had some white/yolk dribbling on it, no eggshells. But it was clearly egginess. Like a passing bird crapped out an egg. And even thought I found it in less than an hour and washed it with water and my fingertip, you can still see it drip shape. So my detailer polished in that area, so now it is much harder to see. The etching was too deep for the polish to take care of all of it – and the detailer didn’t push it. But it is much better.
On the point of the clear bra – my Porsche service rep says I can treat the clear bra as if it was paint, for example, with waxing. So you are saying that is not true for polishing? How about clay bar on a clear bra? I got that done on my un-clear-bra’d 2002 silver Boxster and WOW that makes the surface so smooth.