I’m in that odd camp of being both a Scion owner and a Scion hater. It has to do with their gen2 replacement models, which all arrive with a death wish. My scathing review/styling analysis of the gen2 xB launched a whole genre of reviews comparing it to various greasy foods. The current xD escaped my wrath; I just couldn’t be bothered. And both the current xB and xD are selling at one-third the level of their predecessors: the gen 1 xB sold at about a 5k/month clip in 2005-2006; the current xB is down to about 1700/month. The xD has dropped similarly from 2400/mo (xA) to 800/mo. And now it’s the tC’s turn.
All right, it’s a bit of a stretch. But that’s what comes to mind when I see that up swept C-pillar on the new tC, as well as its high belt line. As well as just the general boredom of it. The generic front end reminds me of so many cars from the late nineties, I can’t even put my finger on it. The interior looks equally uninspired, and hard as a rock. Why not call it what it is: a Corolla Coupe? I predict right here and now that the new tC will substantially undersell its predecessor.
And so what does Scion have in mind to keep/get its sales volumes up? How a bout a five-door variant of the tC? In a story at Ward’s, Scion VP Jack Hollis says that a 5-door is “possible”, explaining that Toyota’s MC platforms, which also underpins the Avensis and Lexus 250h, comes in sedan, hatch and wagon styles in Europe. Bring them on! It’s just what the youth of America is waiting for!
I sat in a Toyota iQ at the Toyota Megaweb in Odaiba and I really liked the space efficiency of it. Soon the iQ will be a Scion, and I will be strongly considering it as an even more maneuverable replacement for my tiny Civic hatch (in addition to a first-gen xB). That said, I don’t really see why the iQ has to be a Scion, save for the fact Scion doesn’t have anything else going on at the moment, and it would look a bit out of place in a showroom amongst all of Toyota’s currently massive offerings.
I was kinda miffed that iQ does not come with the sliding passenger door. But yeah, who didn’t sit in it in Odaiba… I also tried Rush for size, haha.
Yeah, the Rush/Terios is a nice little trucklet…what I imagine the RAV4 would be if it hadn’t grown in size every generation.
Yeah, I am very favorably impressed with the iQ, too. It sure makes the Smart look not-so-smart.
@Johnster
In the UK, the iQ is priced at approximately the same level as the Yaris (well, some GBP500 less). As for the US, Edmunds says it’s going to be $14.2k, versus $12k to $14.4k for the Yaris. Now, somebody please enlighten me as to who in the right mind will take the tiny, useless iQ over the much more practical Yaris. And also there are better (and cheaper) subcompacts than said Yaris…
If the iQ manages to have an instrument panel placed in front of the driver, as opposed to the center-mounted instruments of the Yaris, it will be much more pleasant to drive than a Yaris. And hopefully, Toyota will leave the 3-cylinder version of the iQ in Japan and Europe and just give North America the 4-cylinder version.
I suppose that some buyers will cross-shop the iQ and the Yaris, but I really think they’re going after 2 different segments.
Yaris buyers are probably more concerned with a low purchase price and low operating expenses. iQ buyers, not so much, although they don’t dislike those qualities. With the iQ it’s not about price.
The iQ will appeal to urban buyers looking for something hip and trendy that is easy to drive and park in cities. Those are the types of buyers Smart hoped to snag, but they were put off by the Smart’s under-powered 3-cylinder engine, weird transmission, awkward ride and handling and tales of unreliability (transmission, electrical, fuel injection, rattles). The iQ will probably also be purchased by buyers who are older and more well-to-do than Yaris buyers. (Not the demographic that Scion says they are going after, but a sale’s a sale.)
The problem with Scion is not the Scion. Rather, it is the generation in their 20s.
First of all, they have been slammed by the near depression economic conditions that continue to exist. Many in this age bracket either don’t have work or had to accept a job after college at a subpar pay level.
Second of all, the 20s generation seem not to see cars in the same way as people in their 40s do. The 20s generation are more interested in computer games, facebook, and iPhone 4 than the car. Personally, I know a few in that age bracket who have great jobs but drive clunkers with tons of miles on them. One told me they have no intention of spending tons of money on a car.
This possibllity should scare the car industry, foreign and domestic. It is possible, in about 10 years, the 20s generation will demand cheap cheap cars, and make an auto purchasing decision in the same way they decide on a washing machine. Hyundai may be the big winner here.
Scion has always said they’re targeting people in their 20s, but many of their earlier sales were to a much older demographic – people looking for value without bloat. I bought my 05 xB at age 42.
“Value without bloat” is now gone from Scion, which makes it very unappealing to shoppers of any demographic looking for those attributes.
But how do you target people in their 20’s? Don’t they wanna drive around in a BMW 3-series, just like everybody else?
Yup. 20 somethings don’t have the money, or just don’t care. Older folks are now too damn fat to fit in such a thing. The market for a car like that no longer exists.
Honda Fit was the vehicle of choice for the hipster crowd. It’s a living proof that you can target the 20s demographic. Simply put Toyota failed miserably at it, that’s all there is to it.
qslippy,
The things you see when you don’t have your camera at the ready…
The weekend before last I was out in Burgess Junction in the Bighorn Mountains of Wyoming and I saw a current-generation Scion xB pulling a chopped/customized Harley on a flatbed trailer. At a guess, I’d say this rig had come up out of Sturgis, SD (the Sturgis motorcyle event was winding down at that point). Whichever way it had come, the xB had dragged this Harley to above 8,000 feet.
Maybe the “bloat” added more utility.
@dhathewa: No doubt the gen-2 xB is stronger, but it still isn’t rated for towing, as far as I can tell. Having just crossed the country while towing a U-Haul behind a minivan, that xB you saw was performing an admirable feat, although probably at risk to his warranty.
The current xB is rated at 22/28 mpg. My gen-1 xB gets 28 mpg in city driving on a bad day, and it was rated at 31/34. If I needed another 50% in power, I’d opt for a different car than the new xB. Evidently many potential Scion buyers agree.
But how do you target people in their 20’s?
Give them easy credit and a low price, or at least low monthly payments. It works well for Kia, and worked a little too well for Mitsubishi.
@Pete Zaitcev, The Honda Fit only proves what I said about cars of the type — today it serves a tiny niche market that’s easily satisfied by one or two models. Honda produced 80,000 Fit models for the year 2009. Contrast that to the Ford Probe, 230,000 were built by Ford in the first model year. That same year, 1989, the Probe had competition from the Mazda MX-6, Acura Integra, Toyota Celica, Nissan 240, Mitsubishi Eclipse. These low, small sport coupes had a total production of about 1 million units in 1990. This market no longer exists. Young people, the primary target market of such cars, don’t have the cash. On the other hand, the average 40-something American land manatee can no longer fit in such a car.
PN: I’m in exactly the same camp, owning a gen-1 xB. I wouldn’t buy a Scion today. Hyundai/Kia or Nissan are much more appealing, IMO.
The new tC might be all-new, but it will be mistaken for the circa-2004 model all too readily.
The stance tell me more of first generation Renault Megane Coupe. Surprisingly not a hatchback. It has a tiny small mail slot of an opening in the rear.
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/2575/4781/31437390001_large.jpg
The problem with this car is style, Golf GTI, Mazda speed3 are hatchback, that’s how it should be, the tc can never decide if it’s a sedan or hatchback, it’s like half and half, not aggressive enough.
+1
Once again a Toyota design lacks proportion. The wheelbase is too long by –not knowing its length– 6 inches or so. They should have made this wretched beast a four-door sedan and called it a day.
I would actually have some interest in the tC if Toyota would just put either the 4GR-FSE or 2ZZ-GE under the hood.
Scion used to be about individualism – delivering something unique in the sub $20K market for the Playstation generation. The first gen xB delivered that but all subsequent products seemed way too conventional and Toyotafied to appeal to that demographic. Scion needs to let their designers take a little more risks if they want to be an edgy brand.
Toyota is about to launch Scion in Canada this fall:
http://www.scionnation.ca/
Should be interesting to see how that goes over…
Gen I xB owner here that would replace it with a Kia Soul if in the market. It seems that Toyota consulted current Scion owners when developing the Gen II’s and they apparently stated “bigger, more powerful and ugly.” Problem is that those current owners are no longer the coveted “20 somethings” anymore that Toyota should be chasing.
20 somethings were only worth chasing when they could get car loans.
Now that we have fallen back to reality and credit requires credibility again those 20 somethings are back in the used market which frankly they never should have left.
One and done but that one generation of Scions created a lot of interest and loyalty – to those cars but not to the company. My 1st gen Xb was totalled, bought another one used, would never buy a gen 2 Xb. I could see first generation Scions developing a (small) cult following over the years – count me in.
Paul, you are correct, each 2nd gen Scion has been a real dud. The new tC is as bad as the xB. They’ve ruined it. At this point Toyota should just dump Scion. Make the iQ a Toyota and call it a day.
This further indicates how the Japanese have really lost their design mojo. Hyundai/Kia are really in the driver’s seat.
Kia has Peter Schreyer as their design head, formerly of Audi. ‘Nuff said.
While I’m not crazy about the skin of the tC (I’m a proper hatch kind of guy), the changes made under the skin were all for the better. They gave it a 180hp 4banger that should move it quite well, the suspension was retuned to be sportier, and it, most importantly, now has a 6MT as standard.
We’re hitting on something here. The first-gen Scions were praised for being simple yet elegant in design, not unlike some of the more popular tech-gadgets like the iPhone. They were a hit.
The direction taken with the second-gen cars is just baffling. For an example of how you can evolve a product without losing its DNA, look at the Miata. The latest one is a little bigger, a little heavier, but still very much in keeping with the original concept. The new Scions lost the script somewhere.
That script landed in the Kia design studios. The Soul is what the second-gen xB should have been.
I guess TTAC is chock full of 40-something xB1 owners; add me to the list. Also, add me to the list of people who, if looking for a replacement, would eyeball the Kia Soul or Nissan Cube before even *considering* an xB2.
The Toyota bB, upon which the xB was created, has a second generation in Japan. I rather like it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2005_Toyota_bB_03.jpg
If THAT was the new xB, I would trade in in a heartbeat!
Scion reminds me quite a bit of Saturn. Started strong, with good product and marketing. Just like Saturn’s demise, Scion has the lame product, and marketing is nonexistent.
The end is nigh.
Well, +1 to everything eggsalad said. How can a car company MISS SO BIG on 2nd gen cars after successful launches? I’m ahead of some here and as a +50 I’m considering a first gen xB (being a current Mitsubishi Endeavor driver, I’m used to piloting fugly rides).
Scion should admit their mistake, kill the xB2 and import that bB2.
That bB2 has it wrong in 2 critical ways: first, the high waistline destroys the greenhouse effect and high visibility that was so welcome in the Xb1, second the enormous plastic front end plays right into one of the few weaknesses of the Xb1, the fragile paint job. Cant imagine what the front end of a darker color bB2 would look like after even 10,000 miles of highway driving
It took them 7 years to draw THAT????
More proof that Toyota is dead. What a joke.
Edmunds Inside Line drove the new tC recently, and they say that it doesn’t drive that well. It’s heavier than the old one, which was no lightweight itself (new tC is 3100 lbs). New engine makes it about as fast as a 2.5l Mazda3. I was interested when they announced a replacement for the tC, but I can cross this one off of the list now. Time to wait and see what the 2012 Civic Coupe will have to offer.
Hey, easy on the Datsun B210! I put three years of 130-miles/workday commuting in one of those. Spent most of the drive time with various screwdrivers trying to hunt down squeaks and rattles in the dash. The only time it failed was when I let the gas get too low and choked the fuel filter. But yes, it was ugly and uncomfortable.
The xB is a tragedy. I’ve had an ’05 since new, love it, but am at the other end of the age spectrum from Toyota’s target market. When we went to buy the xB, my SO’s kid was horrified, although he loves the thing now.
Being a 22 year old gen 2 xB owner, I feel I ought to respond.
First of all, I agree that the gen 2 xb is completely different from the gen 1 xb and I understand why it’s viewed by many as a dissapointment. Scion took a completely new direction with it, and perhaps it wasn’t deserving of the name plate. It’s way bigger, more powerful (and thirsty), and way more mainstream styling wise. That said, It’s still a 3,000 pound car with a 2.4L 4 cylinder. All of the overweight American bloat shenanigans need to be put into perspective. Yes, it gained 600 pounds, yes the engine grew by almost a liter, and yes the fuel economy took a 10+ mpg hit; but this is still a car hovering somewhere in the 10th or 20th percentile for curb weight and the 80th or 90th for fuel economy in the U.S. market. (These are extremely approximate numbers).
It stands completely alone in the market of large, powerful (a relative term), roomy vehicles that start at around $16,000. It’s easy to lump all of the $13,000-$25,000 cars into one price range, but in reality there’s a big leap for a lot of people my age from a $16,000 car to a $23,000 car.
Nothing else in this price range (at least in mid 2007) came with the same great combination of space, power, or fuel economy. You get tons of standard features: 6 airbags, lots of safety acronyms, 4 wheel disc brakes, ipod integration, a big engine, etc. which are rare for this price range. The fact that I could actually get a manual was icing on the cake. The surplus of power (again, relative) means I can tow my kart around on a small trailer with ease. My overall MPG average rarely dips below 28.
Today if I were shopping for a car I would likely choose a transit connect or maybe swing for a Honda element, but both are still quite a bit pricier ($4,000) so who knows. It still seems like every other $16,000 car is either much smaller, has a much smaller engine, or both.
+1. I think the xB’s big problem is that people hate it compared to the Gen 1 and don’t look at it on its own merits. One of my tasks during car show visits is to ignore preconceptions and sit in every car to answer the hypothetical “What would I buy?” Not only have I found that I didn’t care for most cars I thought I’d like, but one of the cars that ended up on my short list was the xB for all the reasons you listed. Add in the $1000 college grad rebate and the xB is also a ridiculously good deal – a friend got a 2010 xB stick shift for $14,500 + tax/tag a few weeks ago.
That said, I can’t defend the nose of the 2011 xB. What were they thinking?
Hyundai i30cw aka Elantra Touring? I’m sure there are other choices too.
Well as a owner of a 09 XB I have to say I am happy with my purchase as well.
I have just hit 30 and was looking for something a little different.
I cross shopped with the Soul , Cube, Element and even the elantra touring.
Our of all of them the Touring was the only one I liked as much or better than the XB.
It stands out, is comfortable, good gas mileage and can all about anything I need.
It is perfect for the price and almost perfect over all. The only thing I would add would be more higher end comforts.
That bB2 has it wrong in 2 critical ways: first, the high waistline destroys the greenhouse effect and high visibility that was so welcome in the Xb1, second the enormous plastic front end plays right into one of the few weaknesses of the Xb1, the fragile paint job. Cant imagine what the front end of a darker color bB2 would look like after even 10,000 miles of highway driving
Call me an outlier, but I actually think the current xD is the best-looking Scion to date, and one of the best-balanced economy cars in the market, when it comes to power, weight, space, fuel econ, and the advantages of being a hatchback. Perfect commuter runabout.
I have to agree on the xD, and at least they moved the IP to in front of the driver.
I personally would warm up to the xB if it had 1) power driver’s seat (necessity for me in any Toyota product), and 2) sunroof (necessity for me in any automobile).
While the gen I xB was very unique and pretty astounding when it arrived, no way in hell I’d want to play dance partner in an accident….
Am I the only one who thinks that a seventies’ Corolla hardtop looks better (certainly no worse) than the Scion tC? Toyota simply didn’t go far enough with the retro look.
I’d agree. I owned a 79 Corolla SR5 Liftback which was a great little car. It was nimble, got great fuel mileage and could hold a lot of stuff.
I’m not sure why people are so quick to dismiss the xD. It hasn’t exploded in mass, and it has Corolla bones that are about as sound as it gets in the low price field. Moving the speedometer and tach in front of the driver eliminates that one thing that kept earlier Scions off of my shopping list. I had a rental Corolla recently, and its fuel economy was impressive. I think it was a 4-speed automatic, but it returned 31 mpg while only touching the freeway once in 3 weeks. I wish I could say my Civic Si sedan does the same. It also towered over two Focus rentals I have recent experience with in every way. Since the xD combines this mechanical competence with what looks like a useful hatchback configuration, I’d think it would be a very good buy. I know I trust Toyota far more than Nissan to build a low priced car that is also inexpensive to own.
Why is it that Toyota has to copy everything GM has ever done, including its mistakes? Scion is Toyota’s Saturn. Starved of product and just good enough as “beige”, but yuk. They just keep getting more horrible too. Shame. Just axe the whole lot and sell it to Penske.
While I see your point about the Scion parallel to Saturn’s follow up products, Toyota certainly hasn’t copied all of GM’s errors. They only let the UAW bankrupt one plant, for example, and that was with GM’s help. The original Saturn was a dead end because GM spent a multiple of anyone else’s product budget to produce a car that was no better than average and had a number of flaws. GM could never hope to amortize their investment while delivering the new product needed to remain close to competitive. You can’t say that Toyota indulges themselves in large projects that cannot turn a profit no matter what happens in the market. If the early Prius wasn’t going to be a money maker, at least they knew that with market acceptance they had a plan to amortize their investment and use their growing knowledge base to make profitable products. They didn’t sell cars that burned customers for over 40 years. They don’t hold back availability of competitive drivetrain components to protect Lexus from Toyota, as GM still does when new platforms come out that are shared between divisions. They still understand that people are cross shopping Toyotas against Hondas instead of just against Lexuses, so they don’t do things like put 4-speed automatics in newly introduced Suburbans to make the Escalade seem special. Eventually the 6-speed made it down to the Suburban, but only after magazines compared 4-speed Tahoes and Suburbans to 6-speed Escalades and Yukon Denalis. They probably sold quite a few Sequoias for Toyota. Having worked as a service writer a couple years ago, I’d consider a Toyota product, which I wouldn’t do for a GM product. Toyota doesn’t currently offer anything that I’m in the market for, but I would look at a Toyota if I needed a pickup truck or if their rear wheel drive coupe project yields something light, naturally aspirated, and devoid of needless complexity.
After reading down through the comments, I’m a little surprised that I didn’t see one where someone actually LIKED this new tC. Personally, I think it looks better than the first model. Which might not be saying much. If it does look like any number of nineties cars, well at least they aren’t UGLY nineties cars. It’s anonymous, yes, but that might be perfect for some people. And it is a hatchback, right? I thought it was. And since people seem to shun hatchbacks in America for the most part (unless it’s an SUV or crossover), isn’t this maybe a better direction?
100% agreed that it’s really boring looking, but I drive a Cobalt. I know boring. I’d consider it, if I needed another car right now.
Is it me, or did the cars.com review damn the new tC with faint praise? They think it’s okay, but recommend shopping for a used first-gen model because the interior in the new one is suddenly low-rate. I’d avoid the second-gen model if the interior is like a Cobalt. Shame, because I was considering one… might as well see it in person, but this isn’t a good first impression.
http://www.cars.com/scion/tc/2011/reviews/?revid=56558
I’m 21, And that looks nice to me. Affordable with Toyota quality.
And one commenter said It perfectly when he said 20 somethings are not investing in expensive cars. Of my crowd of friends (we all make a minimum of $1,700 a month) the most expensive car among us is a 2005 Chrysler 300 that was just purchased this month. That was $15,000 and he really didn’t want to spend that much. I personally love my 97 accord and its 180,000 miles. Its reliable, safe and affordable in both insurance and its drinking habits. (26 mpg overall)
I used to be into speed and handling but after I nearly killed myself twice. I have learned that fun is more about who you spend your time with in the car and not the horse power or 0-60 time.
Looks like the 2011 Scion tC has the same awkward proportions of the BMW 318ti. Not Aztec or TL ugly, but not a positive either.
Maybe Scion should move back to being basic Toyotas with unique designs at a low starting price. A potential profit center would be to make it easy for Scion owners to buy accessories and upgrades over time as they can afford them. Making Scion simply a cheaped out Toyota misses the point.
The Gen 1 xB/bB wasn’t retro in looks, but it was just as impossible to redesign than the PT Cruiser, New Beetle, Fiat Nuovo 500, MINI, Dodge Challenger, Jeep Wrangler, Land Rover Defender, etc. How do you improve on its elemental cubist design? The answer is, you can’t, so you don’t.
For whatever reason, Toyota seems unable to design good-looking cars. Inside and outside. Maybe they have only engineers and no designers. Yeah, that must be it. Engineers care more about the functionality, not about how it looks. It’s hard to find more practical cars than Toyotas.
If the iQ manages to have an instrument panel placed in front of the driver, as opposed to the center-mounted instruments of the Yaris, it will be much more pleasant to drive than a Yaris. And hopefully, Toyota will leave the 3-cylinder version of the iQ in Japan and Europe and just give North America the 4-cylinder version.
I suppose that some buyers will cross-shop the iQ and the Yaris, but I really think they’re going after 2 different segments.
Yaris buyers are probably more concerned with a low purchase price and low operating expenses. iQ buyers, not so much, although they don’t dislike those qualities. With the iQ it’s not about price.
The iQ will appeal to urban buyers looking for something hip and trendy that is easy to drive and park in cities. Those are the types of buyers Smart hoped to snag, but they were put off by the Smart’s under-powered 3-cylinder engine, weird transmission, awkward ride and handling and tales of unreliability (transmission, electrical, fuel injection, rattles). The iQ will probably also be purchased by buyers who are older and more well-to-do than Yaris buyers. (Not the demographic that Scion says they are going after, but a sale’s a sale.)