Ken writes:
I’m hoping the Best and Brightest (is that trademarked?) can help out on a dilemma I have: to upgrade or trade in.
About a year ago we purchased a certified used 2008 Lincoln MKZ AWD. It was bought to replace a very different car my wife previously drove – a 2004 Mazda RX-8. The Mazda was a blast – but was starting to get unreliable and with a longer commute and New England winters a different car was needed. On paper the Lincoln fit the bill. It checked all the boxes: price, maintenance costs, reliability, and features.
But specs and numbers don’t always translate into the real world and the love of my life is experiencing buyer’s remorse. The car has been reliable and does have many features, but it lacks character and soul. Sure the RX-8’s engine would flood every so often and the heat worked intermittently, but when it was running she loved driving that thing.
Granted the MKZ and the RX-8 are two completely different animals, but is there anything I can do to fix this car up for her? It seems like her biggest gripe is the car’s handling followed by its acceleration. It’s been hard finding tuning support for the MKZ. I’ve done some research and found a company called Steeda Autosports that specializes in Ford Fusion AWD parts that have some interchangeability with the MKZ. (Mostly suspension parts.)
So here are my questions:
Should I upgrade the car for her? And if so with a few thousand dollars could I get it to handle better and a little more power?
Upgrading handling: 1) Should I start with just the springs ($250) or 2) Should I get the full kit: shocks, spring, and sway bars ($650)?
Upgrading the engine: 1) A CAI seems a good place to start – but I can’t find one anywhere.
Or should we trade the car in and get a used 3-series AWD or Lexus IS250 AWD that she liked, but were more expense and had less features. (Though ultimately she probably would have enjoyed driving more.)
Steve answers:
No. I wouldn’t spend another penny. You have gone from an all out sports car to two tons of luxury with a moderate sport bent. So give yourself time to adjust in the decompression chamber that is your daily driver. It takes time to sink into the ‘feel’ of any vehicle, and a lot of the mythical personality issues in the beginning go away in due time.
Ford spends an insane amount of money (hundreds of millions) developing the right feel for your car. That’s not saying that your tastes are the same as Ford’s engineers. But throwing money at trying to make the Lincoln into an RX-8 in drag this early in the game would be pointless. If I were you, I would keep everything as it is.
Sajeev answers:
Ever driven a Mazdaspeed6, or just a regular Mazda 6? Did you like it? Then forget what my esteemed colleague says. Steve is no fun at all, because the Lincoln MKZ can mimic its superior Japanese brother for a few bucks from the bank. And provide the mid-luxury appointments never available from Mazda. It’s a win-win, sort of. But don’t take my word for it, because people with Zephyrs already went to Mazda dealers to find the truth.
For handling, do a solid and use the bars from an AWD Speed6 on your MKZ AWD. From that thread, it’s a safe bet that the difference in sizing is a few millimeters, making a significant difference without turning the Lincoln into a crude coil-over hack job. Poke around the Mazda forums, you’ll probably find a Speed6 guy selling his bars in a misguided(?) attempt at faster lap times. Add slightly more aggressive semi-metallic brake pads and see what happens. Then go nuts with Bilstein or Koni struts if you like your progress. And then stop, because you can’t polish a turd.
Now to the powertrain: you need a real tune on the computer. Thanks to a friend of mine who is a whiz with SCT stuff, I found out that the Ford 3.5 responds well to aftermarket re-flashes, mostly from transmission parameters tweaked to speed up down/up shifts. A good tuner takes things like the MAF’s (mass-air flow sensor) transfer function in account: optimizing a car for performance over efficiency, even removing misguided attempts at driver safety (torque management). And you might see 10-20 extra horses too, like a certain somebody saw in a previously discussed Lincoln product. I’m serious, especially if you have 93 octane fuel in your state.
Can you have your cake and eat it too? Nope. But making an MKZ into less of a watered-down Mazda and more of the sporty Lincoln LS V6–it was supposed to replace–is a no brainer, for less than $1000. Anti-swaybars and an SCT computer tune are where you start. If that’s what you really want.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder.
Ken —
Listen to Steve on this one, for the sake of your marriage.
Life is way too short to drive something you don’t like. Every day will remind you that you don’t like it, and eventually resentment will set in. This is not good for a marriage. Ask my mom — her (ex) husband forced her to sell her beloved 1972 MGBGT because, well it wasn’t really reliable, for a brand new, just off the lot, 1984 Chevy Camaro. With the 305/auto trannie, natch.
That car started every day, was actually relatively fast for the day, and actually got better gas milage than the MG. No matter, it was a sore point every day.
Commit to shopping for a lightly used car that your love loves. Even if it results in a little less $$ in your pocket, it will be worth it. Trust me on this.
Ken, a woman who cares about cars is a rare and wonderful find. Keep her happy!
Wouldn’t any engine modifications void the warranty? Seems a shame to pay extra for CPO then void the coverage…
If your dealership is lined with douchebags, return the computer to a stock tune before taking it in. Takes all of 10 minutes, just plug the tuner in, push a few buttons, drink a coffee and come back.
Sajeev,
That’s not very moral now is it? Seems like one could call it fraud. Maybe you think it’s ok to defraud an entity because they are large and impersonal – but it’s still wrong.
Here’s the thing: an intelligent tune isn’t fraud. It won’t mess with the air/fuel ratios enough to cause any damage. ZERO, especially during the warranty period. Maybe a tuned car will have more engine wear after 150,000 miles, but I seriously doubt it.
It is fine, but you don’t want to give a dealer reason to hassle you. It’s like K&N filters, I’ve had a couple of dealers tell me that they “could” cause warranty concerns, but they’ve never seen it. And intelligently oiled K&N filter causes no problems. The same applies here.
” A good tuner takes things like the MAF’s (mass-air flow sensor) transfer function in account: optimizing a car for performance over efficiency, even removing misguided attempts at driver safety (torque management).”
I would think interfering with the torque management system could result in the transmission, CV joints, steering rack, etc. experiencing stresses they were not necessarily engineered to handle.
I don’t get it. Torque management is constrained to the dulling electronic throttle inputs, and retarding timing to make for a smoother feel. We’re not talking about a 100-shot of Nitrous, not by a long shot. THAT would strain a driveline.
<i>I don’t get it. Torque management is constrained to the dulling electronic throttle inputs, and retarding timing to make for a smoother feel. We’re not talking about a 100-shot of Nitrous, not by a long shot. THAT would strain a driveline.</i>
I work in IT and the vendors are always saying – it will only run on Red Hat 4.1.2. The customer will call up and say everything is all f-ed up. You’ll check and they moved it to Red Hat 5. Um, we told you it only runs on 4.1.2. “But…but…but it should work!!” the customers will say. Well, it doesn’t seem to be working now does it?
I have no patients for armchair engineers trying to defraud someone because “We’re not talking about a 100-shot of Nitrous, not by a long shot.”
Really?
Armchair engineering? I don’t think so. And don’t see why you’d get bent out of shape by my last comment.
I work in IT and I hot rod cars. Your correlation between IT software and electronic engine tuning is very much invalid. People have been reprogramming cars since the mid-80s, and Ford’s EEC-IV and EEC-V systems work disturbingly well with parameter changes for years and hundreds of thousands of miles. And that’s just what I’ve learned from the 15 years of EFI modding sitting in my garage, but any car forum is gonna agree with that.
And as far as EFI reprogramming having enough power to upset a car’s mechanical threshold(s)…once again, this isn’t a shot of NOS. Sorry, can’t think of a better example, but NOS will break stuff. Engine tuning? Not if you understand air fuel ratios.
Wait…I did find an exception: forced induction cars. Its possible to break a powertrain with a computer tweaking a turbo, or a computer+pulley tweak on a supercharger. GTIs, Terminator Cobras, etc…especially with a loose cannon behind the wheel.
But a Lincoln MKZ and this family at the helm? Not likely.
Lay off sajeev, guy. I would be more worried, if I were you, of buying a car that was Baruthed in a test drive before you got it. It seems you are ok with some of the electronic throttles that back out of the power in some situations when you have your foot pinned on the gas…unacceptable.
Follow Sajeev’s advice or go get a Lincoln LS V8 from a retirement community.
Nightmare to fix, not reliable. Would you expect anything less from a de-contented, cheaper, Jaguar?
i have to agree that the LS V8 is a very poor car. yes, it was fast and yes it was decently luxurious. however, my sister had one and from the get-go there were transmission problems (among other things i can’t specifically remember)
The quickest, cheapest, and easiest way to improve handling is upgrading your tires. It’s all about the contact patch…you can swap out all the Mazda stuff you want, but if you keep the all-season touring meats on there, it won’t make a bit of difference. You might also want to try stainless steel brake lines. They’re relatively cheap and improve brake feel noticably.
+1.
I got rid of the sh*tty Michelin hx mxm on my Sonata for a set of Kumho ASXs and then when they wore out a set Eagle GTs. Not a summer tires, but both were still admirable in the snow and surprisingly tenacious in the dry.
Isn’t she bugged by the boring and plastic-icky interior?
I was only once in an MKZ (about 2 years old) last year, after having been in a colleague’s then new Acura TSX, and I was amazed how crap the Lincoln interior was in comparison (on the plus side, the MKZ’s steering was not nearly as heavy, twitchy-nervous, and lacking in on-center feel, as the steering I experienced in the TSX…)
p.s. The quickest, cheapest, and easiest way to improve the interior is to drive the car at night.
btw, I was thinking about this experience again, and I think I was especially shocked by the MKZ’s antiquated-looking passenger airbag door, and the really cheap door trim….
If you are not upside down on the car, I would get something else. My creed is that trying to turn a car into something it is not already usually means you got the wrong car. Furthermore, none of the mods you make are likely to be recoverably at resale or might even hurt resale. And if she is like my wife, there is more than a passing chance that you will make these mods and she still won’t like the car
The real hurdle for you is that there is nothing quite like the RX-8 on the market. You can find plenty of cars that can out hustle the RX-8, but VERY few than can equal its handling. Might want to look at a MazdaSpeed6, there might be some good used ones available for a reasonable price. Another even sportier option might be an Audi TTS, I think they come with AWD. A third possibility would be a BMW 335 ix. None of these cars will handle as well as your RX-8, but they will handle well, have more power than the RX-8 and offer AWD to boot.
Good luck
You may want to check out a new or nearly new Mazda6 with the V6 3.7. It’s not available with AWD but you can invest in a set of spare wheels with winter tires. This setup might do better in the snow than AWD with all seasons.
No question…trade it in! Here’s the deal:
Steve says, essentially, that you bought the wrong car for what your wife really wants. He’s right. A MKZ isn’t a sports car and never will be. It isn’t even a sport sedan, although it could be made into one if you throw enough $$ at it.
And that’s the problem – and the slippery slope – to which Sajeev is egging you onto. He’s right that there’s lots of cool mods you could throw at your Lincoln. The problem is there’s no end to the mods you could throw at your Lincoln in your vain attempt to turn it into an M3 or RS4. Or even a 335i or S4.
Just thicker sway bars and an ECU reflash probably ain’t gonna do the trick. And realize you could end up voiding your warranty as a result of certain mods – almost guaranteed if you do a ECU reflash – and be forever stuck with higher gas bills for pumping premium fuel into the tank. At the end of it you’ll wonder why you just didn’t go out and buy the real deal Beemer or Audi.
Search your gearhead soul and do the math. Otherwise, you could well find yourself at the short end of the financial stick with a car that rides like crap with no warranty, and that still doesn’t “do it” for you or your wife.
Not being a fan of modifications, I’d either go with Steve’s advice or do an about-turn and trade the car in on something more palatable. If you wanted to stick with FoMoCo, I’d recommend searching out a manual-equipped Lincoln LS V6. Difficult to find, but interesting and not that bad to drive. That doesn’t tick the reliability box, however…
You’ve got the wrong car. If you put money down to customize it, it may lower the resale value for your car, and you’ve got now less money for the used Lexus or BMW or whatever car that she may end up wanting if the upgrades don’t satisfy. I say go for a different car she really loves, but make sure it’s not just an impulsive buy.
My 2 cents!
Everything listed here retains a stock look, and selling the modified bits is easy.
How about this? If he takes my advice and hates it, I will buy the SCT programmer from him and use it for one of my projects. Win and win.
This appears to a cautionary tale with the lessons:
1) Take the test drive seriously
2) Test drive multiple cars
and
3) Know thy self!
Listen to Steve. It won’t work.
Sorry to go off topic, but I believe “The Best and Brightest” was the term David Halberstam used to describe President Kennedy’s advisors on the Vietnam War.
Was that before McNamara got all teary-eyed and apologized? (He may have f-up on ‘nam policy, but he did make a good-call, profit-wise on the ’60 T-bird and he got the Falcon right.)
Yes, Halberstam wrote his book before McNamara apologized.
Tuning should only be done to a car that you already like to make it better. I don’t think you can tune a car you don’t like into one you do without spending ridiculous amounts. The main problem is you will never get the money back you spend on tuning, so you really better love the car to spend that money. Otherwise you’re just throwing good money after bad. I say trade it.
“Tuning should only be done to a car that you already like to make it better. I don’t think you can tune a car you don’t like into one you do without spending ridiculous amounts. ”
A sound principle which is all too frequently forgotten.
Hey guys! I’m Ken… Thanks for the comments and thanks to Sajeev for posting! (Never even thought about the Speed6 parts – though we did look at the car. All are manuals and not what she wants for a DD.)
There’s some hate on mods over here. At the end of the day if we can put a little bit of money in it and make it more enjoyable for her its a car we’ll keep for a long time. She knows its not an RX-8 – but would tuning an MKZ to handle better be good money after bad?
Some good comments here too – esp. on just being married / keeping your partner happy. I’m a little new to this (4 months in!)
I’ll have my wife take a look at this thread later too.
Thanks all.
“There’s some hate on mods over here.”
I don’t see that at all, it’s just that an MKZ cannot be modded into an RX8 competitor without spending way more than the car is worth.
I think success modding a car really depends who you are. It sounds like you are open to it, maybe have some experience, so you are probably fine.
I wouldn’t recommend mods to just anyone, most people aren’t willing to take the risk of warranty issues, or dissatisfaction with the part (especially if you have to pay someone to put it on and take it back off), breaking stuff or needing more parts for the parts etc.
With that said, I admit I have more mods on my WRX than I can remember off the top of my head.
My advice for the suspension, first try sway bars. If that isn’t enough look into shocks and springs, do not buy one without the other, shock damping is really critical to ride and handling. Preferably you could find a matched set. And be careful, spring manufacturers are compelled by strong marketing forces to create springs that “lower” your car, you have to make sure to buy stuff from a manufacturer tilted toward function over form.
I’m with Steve.
If you mod this thing, you’ll just have an MKZ with a clunky ride. Lipstick on a pig.
Why not buy something that the factory intended to be fun to drive? Don’t buy Mazda6 parts, buy a Mazda6! Or a Subaru, Mazda3, Civic Si, VW GTI, etc.
I don’t get it. RX-8 to Lincoln? What did your wife want? What does she want now? I’d give her the closest thing your budget can buy. Unless she has some particular affection for the MKZ, and truly thinks that some adjustments to its dynamics would maximize her utility (economist’s jargon for giving her the most life satisfaction for the money), the two of you should check True Delta and Consumer Reports for repair data on cars that appeal to her, and then do some test driving. Could be your Friday night date for the next couple of months.
My guess is that your wife knows what she doesn’t want, which is this car. What she really wants is yet to be determined (by her). Unless she is pushing for AWD, I would not focus on that. I lived for years in NE and they know about plowing in areas like Boston or further north. Wait for the plows to come thru and drive sanely and you will be fine. In fact you might even be better off that way. Always amused me that most of the cars stranded on the side of the road after a bad snow storm were invariably SUVS driven by people who thought AWD substituted for common sense driving in bad weather conditions.
Jeffer is correct: The Best and the Brightest was the title of Halberstam’s book about Kennedy’s advisers, including Robert McNamara, who had previously been pres of Ford.
Note too that Halberstam did not use the term “The Best and the Brightest” as praise. His long but gripping book showed how the “power elites” around Kennedy and then Johnson led the United States into the Vietnam war. Investigative reporting at its best.
The elite educations, pompous world views, and lack of street smarts of the best and the brightest led them to decide to send more common men to die in the jungle for nothing. Halberstam’s book is a tale of arrogance, insular thinking, and mutually sustained delusions. Nothing best or brightest about that, except in irony as Halberstam used the term.
Halberstam’s book on the car industry — The Reckoning — is a great one too. It’s dated now, but still better than anything about the car industry written since. Too bad Halberstam is dead now. Killed in a car crash.
If you want to mod:
1. tires
2. struts
3. sway bars (Sajeev’s Speed6 idea is a good one)
4. remove some sound deadening material
5. reflash
___________________________
If you want to replace (enjoyable, automatic, and AWD seems to be the main criteria here):
1. Subaru Legacy GT
2. Infiniti M or G
3. Cadillac CTS
4. BMW 3-series
5. Acura RDX SH-AWD
I personally like the IS250, but if she thinks the MKZ is too slow, the Lexus won’t be any improvement.
No sedan handles remotely as well as the RX-8, and suspension mods aren’t going to change this.
This said, Lincoln offers an optional sport suspension on the car. I’m not sure which model year it was first offered. But it definitely removes the float and even makes the ride overly harsh for this sort of car in my opinion (you’ll find my review on TTAC). The parts might cost less than those for the MS6, and are tuned for the car.
Going to a Lexus IS 250 certainly won’t fix complaints about acceleration. I’m actually surprised she finds the car inadequate in this department, as it’s fairly quick and a match for any non-M non-turbo 3.
If cost is an issue, buy a used vehicle. Not sure if an auto tranny is what is needed, if so, consider an Infiniti G35X or a Subie Legacy GT. Either one will provide decent reliability/maintenance costs<AWD for winter driving, and some focus on “sportiness” that might be missing with the MKZ. If you can do a stick, buy something German if you’re willing to pay more for maintenence.
Wacky idea, but, given the likely depreciation hit on trading in the Lincoln and given the resale value of used RX8s, why not keep the Lincoln until the wheels fall off, and pick up a used RX8 for a toy when you need a fix of the driving experience only it can provide?
As for reliability, my 7 year old RX8 (stored winters) has been great. I’ve never flooded it (it’s really not hard to avoid, I’m always baffled by people who complain about that) and everything works. In fact, at the moment, of my current fleet of 4 street vehicles, it’s been by far the most reliable over the last year.
+1 on this (as long as it is a 6MT). Just make sure to find one that has been meticulously maintained (especially plugs every 30K miles).
“Or should we trade the car in and get a used 3-series AWD or Lexus IS250 AWD that she liked, but were more expense and had less features. (Though ultimately she probably would have enjoyed driving more.)”
I’d say this is the answer right here. Life’s too short, get what you really want.
I’m going to suggest something really crazy: Sell the Lincoln and find an ’06+ RX-8 *and* a cheap used DD (suggestions, Sajeev?). You can pick up the 8 for a song and she can drive it to put the smile back on her face when needed.
If I were to recommend another RX-8, it would be ’09 or later. The car got a major mechanical refresh that year
True, but not as cheap. ’06 saw some mechanical fixes too from the earlier models and can be found easily for under $13K.
Ken
I could swear that my Buddy in PA bought your wife’s RX8. It’s 2004 Red with about 40K miles on it when he got it in late summer of 2008. The power seat button on the driver seat is missing the nob and the heat control works only when it wants to – sometimes lower is hotter. Also, there were times the car starts choking right after it starts, and you floor it to see a big cloud of white smoke came out of the rear end. Some records of the previous owner in the glove compartment reveal the previous owner being a lady lives in Boston!!
I would suggest your friend look at doing coils/plugs/wires to address the starting issue. In reality they should probably be done every 20K miles although if you follow the Mazda service intervals you might still have the original set in there (the coils are located on top of the very hot engine and tend to cook. Rotary engines eat plugs like candy. I buy them buy the case for my 2nd Gen RX7 track car). Might as well do the wires while you’ve got it all unplugged.
Not hard to do your self, and pretty cheap if bought online (probably $300 for all the parts from somebody like MazMart) and avoid the dealership like the plague.
Sell the Lincoln as-is and buy a gently used BMW 3/5 Series with manual transmission.
Twotone
IHMO, going from an AWD sedan to another AWD sedan would not be a good solution. If you want to fix this problem, you need to go from AWD to RWD.
BMW 3-series (preferably E46) comes to mind.
There are Lincolns worth tinkering with.
The MKZ is not one of them.
Save your money or if you have a hole burning in your pocket trase it in for something else
Get out of the Lincoln while you still can. It was, is and always will be a turd you can’t polish. The E46 is a great car, IF you find an example that was well maintained, and not tracked. Check the various BMW boards on what to look for. They are not perfect, but they are a lot of fun. Life IS too short to drive a POS that you don’t like.
I recommend getting a CPO 3-series….preferably a 335i. It’s the car out there that most closely blends the best aspects of your Lincoln and your Mazda. Arguably, it’s the best handling under $50k sedan out there. Make sure to get the sport package. The 335i will blow the doors off the RX-8, power wise, too. The 335d is almost as fun and gets awesome highway mileage.
2nd choice would be an Audi A4 variant, then either a G37, CTS, or IS350.
I agree with the wisdom that you should only mod a car that you already like. You’re going to spend a few thousand to turn a boring commuter car into a boring commuter car with less body roll and a hard ride. Still boring.
If you want reliability, some luxury, and some fun, the Infiniti G in coupe or sedan guise is where its at. Both are now available with AWD if that’s important. Both will blow the doors off an IS250. The 3 series and A4 are more rewarding, but bring more risk.
The one reliable, affordable sports car alternative to the RX-8 I can think of is the Honda S2000.
Hmmm….
First of all, I agree with so many B&B above and am confused by the switch from the one to the other.
Last, I would agree with Steve…give it a little time. IF you suddenly realize you are starting to like the feel, then start to look into the modifications.
I always did like this car, and the Mazda6, other than its dash…flat and un-Lincoln like.
One final point.
Exactly how much warranty is left, if any?
I also agree with the worries about the warrantee. Not very many really want to keep putting things back to stock before every dealer visit.
If there’s none left, reflash away!
3 series CPO, get the 328i, (x if you really need AWD) plenty of power, (especially with a manual) almost as reliable as a Honda, and as to handling, braking, steering and refinement…well… once you go to Der Vaterland nothing else really compares…least expensive route to go. If your Lady (who obviously appreciates an excellent handling rwd automobile) doesn’t have issues with “douches in BMW’s” she will love it.
I’m with Sajeev on this one.
The MKZ/Zephyr/Fusion is on a pulled and slightyly stretched CD platform based on the Mazda6 so finding go-fast parts that fit the MKZ shouldn’t be a stretch. Yes, as Sajeev says, you really can’t tune a turd to be an all out (RX8-esque) racer when it came from the factory as a turd (and really, who buys a Lincoln for that purpose?) BUT you can make it a little sharper, a little faster and a little more enjoyable to drive in reclaiming some of that MazdaSpeed spirit. Personally, I’d leave the engine upgrades alone, or keep them to the bare minimum.
In case anyone is still following or looking for Lincoln parts and comes across this…
We went with Sajeev’s sugestions. Searched MazdaSpeed6 forums (and some AWD Fusion forums) and found that the rear sway bar is compatible between all the cars. Bought a Whiteline aftermarket that the Mazda guys seem to like and its really done a good job at reducing body roll in the MKZ. Also threw on a front strut brace from Steeda for the hell of it. There were mixed reviews but they’re cheap and easy to put on.
Next is that tune you were talking about Sajeev.