Jay writes:
I’m spoiled.
I’ve been blessed to drive three BMW 3-Series over the past several years (BMW employee leases). I’ve been spoiled by their comfort, performance, and quality. Now I’m out of the car industry and my lease is going up. I’m looking to buy a car for $17K or less and build up my investment portfolio. I plan on driving the wheels off this car, so I would like to like it at least a little.
Needs: I drive a lot for work. It’s important to me to be comfortable on a 3 hour drive. At the same time I don’t want to feel like I’m driving on top of a beach ball (ex. Toyota Camry, Avalon). Reliability, driving comfort, and minimal road noise are paramount. Safety is a no brainer. Don’t feel like being the recipient of a plastic hip because I wanted to save a couple grand.
I’ve looked at everything under the sun: Accords to Xterras, Acuras to Volkswagens. Jetta TDI’s were a strong front runner, but I have a hard time feeling good about them knowing they have less than stellar reliability according to TrueDelta.
Accords are reliable but have carried the reputation of having excessive road noise and questionable long trip comfort. Xterras looked to be a winner till I calculated the gas bill ($300/month). Acura TSX and TL’s are looking strong right now but really peak out the ol’ budget. In addition, my car biz friends, as well as TTAC’s recent post indicate that current prices are greatly inflated, and its worth waiting a month or two.
I’m a little overwhelmed. What are your thoughts? I’m going to go take an aspirin.
Thanks for your help.
Steve replies:
I think you have an incurable case of automotive optimism. $17k for a new TDI? Perhaps if the Euro becomes the next Russian Ruble you may have a shot at it. But for now… No! Nein! Nyet! VW’s shareholders would March eastward to Warsaw and try to make it 3 out of 5 before that ever happens.
There is a ridiculous assortment of new vehicles out there for $17k. Most aren’t nearly as good a deal as a one year old version of the same exact vehicle with less than 10,000 miles. But you want ‘new’ so I won’t argue.
Then again I can’t help you with the specifics either. You have to go out and find what’s best for you. I would encourage a vehicle at the tail end of it’s model run. These vehicles ‘tend’ to have better build quality and many of the TSB related issues of the early run vehicles are resolved.
They are also usually a bit more discounted in the marketplace than their flashy and fashionable alternatives. The Versa’s, tC’s, and Focii of 2010 are already heavy on the incentives.. and all can be had for $17k. I think each one is well suited to the types of folks that end up buying them. Would it make an aspiring Yuppie happy? Perhaps.
My top picks? For the near-new it’s hard to beat a well-made hybrid on the dollars and cents scale. But my math involves at least a 12 year / 150k ownership period, and I’m not even taking into account the ‘beater’ factor. For daily transportation with a wink to comfort anything short of an Aveo would do. The Mazda 6 may be a good alternative. The Hyundai Sonata may be a good alternative. The 43rd variation of the Subaru Impreza may even be slightly be better than the 67th version of the Toyota Corolla. In the end, so long as you avoid leasing you should be okay.
Sajeev replies:
Your choice of cars with that budget makes a used car the only way to go. That’s because 17-grand will get you a heavily incentivized stripper Camry, Sonata or Fusion, or a middle of the road Civic, Corolla, etc. Then again, you’d have a lot of fun with a brand new Ford Fiesta at that price ceiling. If that’s what you really want.
Otherwise, it’s time to look used. I’d stick with a cheap and cheerful mainstream product, but with all the toys: leather, chrome, V6, etc. Luckily for you, I can make this decision fairly easily, as I helped a “DINK” acquaintance of mine try out family sedans to replace an E39 BMW 540i. They loved the performance of the 2009+ Mazda6, far and away their favorite. And I’d expect the same from you.
In the end, I scored them a great deal on another 5-er, a CPO unit. That’s not in your future, so put a 2009 Mazda6 with leather and low miles on your short list.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder.
Yeah, if you want it to handle well, go drive Mazdas and see what you like. You might even be able to score a CPO Mazdaspeed 3 on that budget or an older and rarer Mazdaspeed 6. If you just want an entertaining commuter vehicle, Fiesta hatch, loaded up.
Maybe I’m missing something, where did he say he wanted new?
I like the Acura TSX if you can afford it.
This segment is called New or Used!
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/new-or-used-the-incredible-exploding-family-edition/
Welcome to TTAC’s latest feature “New or Used?” In this series, your car-buying questions will become a battleground between the forces of the used-car market (as represented by our in-house auction specialist Steve Lang) and the new-car market (as represented by Mr Sajeev Mehta of Piston Slap fame)
“There is a ridiculous assortment of new vehicles out there for $17k. Most aren’t nearly as good a deal as a one year old version of the same exact vehicle with less than 10,000 miles. But you want ‘new’ so I won’t argue.”
Says right there that he wanted “new” but I just don’t see that…
Just making sure the man is getting the best answers he can get!
I agree – there’s nothing in the original question that says he wants “new”.
Steve &/or Sajeev decided to put the question into the new or used category, but Jay never went there. Thus, I think the tone of the answers are a bit askew, especially Steve’s.
You might, if you’re wanting a fun on the cheap new car with decent handling, look at a Hyundai Accent SE 5 speed. Not the GS or the other versions, they’re less sporting. Decent shifter, sunroof, great stereo, sport suspension, 116 mph top end, etc. for less than your $17,000 barrier plus a 5 year 100,000 mile warranty. The hatch body in a discreet color guarantees less harassment from Uncle LEO and can be wound up to a satisfying 1 mph per horsepower easily. YMMV with the auto, stick is the way to go. I found the handling to be very reminiscent of the 1st generation VW GTI from 1982.
Does the SE get the B&M shifter standard with the stick? YEE HAA!
I am sorry, but I cannot for the life of me think of the words, “Hyundai Accent” and “fun” in the same sentence, having been in an Accent rental more than once. It made hopping in my Fit a very pleasurable experience, indeed.
$17k will get a nice Fit Sport, however, and that is a fun car. And it is a Honda, not a Hyundai.
It has the B&M shifter and IIRC a strut tower brace can be added as well. As far as not being able to ‘visualize’ a Hyundai as being fun, Volkswagen made the GTI fun to drive despite making the Beetle and the pedestrian Rabbit, it sure made a lot of Top 10 lists and gathered a very loyal following. Think ‘surprising sport hatch’ and give it a try. Hyundai’s build quality is pretty darned good for what you spend, and he has a $17,000 limit.
Sorry, but there are no intersting $17k new cars. You can, however, find a nice low-mileage BMW 328i sedan for that price.
Twotone
My nephew is a BMW technician. He informs me that owning a BMW out of warranty is not a wise move.
I believe he wanted to build up his investment portfolio, which pretty much eliminates all German cars for anyone who is not a weekend mechanic. Camcordonata is the way to go, either new or slightly used.
My Occam’s Razor blade tends to be a little dull at time, but what about:
3-4 year old BMW 3-series off lease?
Too obvious?
I have a 2006 TSX with a stick and navigation, and it has been reliable, frugal, and fun to drive (the engine and stick are slick). However, depending on the road surface, it is not what I would describe as quiet. It’s not so loud that you can’t just turn on the radio, but if you want a sound depravation chamber, it is not.
Honda cars are lighter and more lithe than all of their competition. They also have less sound insulation.
The new 2011 Optima should be out soon. That probably means lots of 2010’s at really good prices.
You can buy 3 or 4 Crown Victorias in excellent shape for $17k. Those should get you about a million miles total with minimal repairs.
I know this is not the norm, but it is my experience. Stay with a 3 series. You are undoubtedly bit by the performance, etc. We have Honda’s and BMW’s and in my reversed universe the BMW’s beat the Honda’s at every mark including cost of ownership. Due to a growing family, old house, work, and lack of time we are driving the wheels off of a Honda Element and e46 325iT. The BMW is cheaper to fix, easier to fix, has not needed to be fixed and still drives like new at 90k. The Honda is complex (I cant even find a Honda guy who wants to mess with the struts), costly to repair (check engine light and limp mode) and a rattle trap. Both cars have the same mileage and are 03’s and cost the same when purchased $17k (yes the Honda was younger but the mileage was the same). So I recommend a pre-owned 3 series with a stick, drive it like a Camry and enjoy.
Steve and Sajeev,
My apologies if I gave the impression I was looking new. Ludicrous! I was looking for used or CPO cars. :o)
Jay
Practical questions
1) Do you need bluetooth / handsfree in the car?
2) Do you carry multiple passengers / clients in the car? (i.e. do you need a real backseat)
3) How important is mileage vs safety / luxury? Do you need 30 mpg on the freeway?
4) Weather conditions?
Couple of ideas
1) 2005-2007 TL – great technology, good reliability, mediocre leather
2) 2005-2007 TSX – small but tighter than the TL
3) 1998-2005 GS300 – luxurious, safe, comfortable, gas pig
I lean towards an older well-kept near lux Japanese auto over a newer but lower spec vehicle
As someone who made a similar move several years ago, I wish you luck. I’ve owned five Bimmers (including an E46 M3) and when I left my last job, our finances dictated a more cost-effective mode of transportation. I drove a lot of cars in the same range that you’re in. My philosophy is to buy used, less than 2 years old and 30k miles, drive until around 100k miles. In my experience it gets you most of the new car ownership experience without the massive depreciation hit on the front end and allows you to avoid (most) of the long-term “stuff is wearing out” maintenance and mechanical woes.
I ended up with an ’07 Mazdaspeed6. It has its quirks (narrow powerband), but has also been an entertaining, reliable car for the last year and a half. I got a great deal on it from the original owner (friend of a friend) who had a failing business, needed cash and was fortunate enough to own the car outright.
My aunt just purchased the newer Mazda6 and I agree with Sajeev. For the money, it’s a tough one to beat for the enthusiast on a budget.
I’m surprised the Subaru Legacy GT hasn’t been mentioned. Very safe, very reliable as far as I know, much faster and better to drive than any Accord or Sonata, and ’07 or ’08 examples with reasonable miles are right in that $17K range.
Volvo S80/S60 is a great value in the used market. Fairly reliable, eminently comfortable (some of the best seats in the industry). You can probably get a 2005-2006 with decent miles for 17k.
“Most aren’t nearly as good a deal as a one year old version of the same exact vehicle with less than 10,000 miles. ”
Where do you find that? I just checked the CPO price on my 2008 GTI that I bought new. With 32k on it it’s 22,333 CPO I paid 24,500 new. Where do you find all these deals on 1 year old used cars? Most aren’t even discounted at all vs. the new price after rebates.
jmo–I’m with you. I don’t think there is much value to be found in a 1-2 year old used car with 10k miles on it, when compared to the discounts, better financing, and full warranty coverage on new vehicles. This is not true for all categories, but for midsize sedans I think it is. I just bought a brand new 2010 Malibu, fully loaded 4-cyl (leather, bluetooth, sunroof, etc.) for $22,800. Sticker was $28,600. The car had 9 miles on it. A CPO Malibu, 2009, optioned to the same level is around $20k-$21k in most instances. There is a $3k savings maybe, but the mileage difference, additional warranty coverage, better financing and piece of mind on the new model negates that, in my opinion.
People pay much closer to the asking price on used cars than on new, in general. I think Sajeev’s advice on the new Mazda 6 is great advice, and they are selling so poorly that I’m sure the dealer will give you a great deal on a brand new one.
Seems to me that most clean used, 1-2 year old cars sell at too high a ratio relative to their expected remaining life.
A simple rule being that if a car is half way along to it’s expected end-of-life of X00,000 miles (less marginal residual value), than it should cost somewhat less than half the price of the same car new with zero miles on the odometer.
The primary reason the used car price should be proportionally lower (than a new car of the same model and features) is that one can never fully know the used car’s condition (hidden problems).
Add in the new car benefits of being able to select your desired options, color, as well quality enhancements the manufacturer learned from latter production.
Some used car prices remind me of people who try to sell 1 year used items (electronics, skis, whatever) for a few % less than what new costs. No thanks, I don’t care how well you took care of it, I’ll buy new rather then enable what amounts to you having made use of that item for a very low ‘rental’ rate for 1 year.
Try Ebay.. or any non-CPO, non-Carmax vehicle on Autotrader. Many vehicles are overproduced and inevitably the dealer networks can’t handle the inventory .
Certain public auto auctions will have a few during the course of the year. Also credit unions, finance companies, and banks can opt to sell directly to the public. I’ve seen hundreds of repos over the years with fewer than 10,000 miles on them. A few dozen had fewer than 1,000 miles.
There are also plenty of fleet lease companies, rental firms, and even the leftover demos from the dealerships.
http://www.phharval.com/home/services/asset-management/used-vehicle-marketing/464#ga
I strongly prefer the fleet lease programs over the CPO’s because I know specifically what has been done it, and what needs to be done, without having to pay for the bogus premium.
Good luck.
A 3-year Acura TL should fit the bill nicely. If you’re a manual transmission fan those can be found with a bit of hunting.
first-generation Acura TSX with a manual transmission, low mileage.
+ will run with a minimum of issues for basically eternity, fun to drive but won’t get you tickets, best transaxle shifter ever, beautifully crafted interior, subtle but attractive styling
-smaller than USM accord, takes 93… uhh…
this is what you need.
If you’re willing to buy an Accord, you should at least test drive a Toyota Camry SE. Firmer suspension and better appearance with many used SE rental cars to choose from. I hear that aftermarket upgrade to leather is fairly common.
A friend bought a VW Jetta with a manual and 2.5 liter 5 cylinder “tractor” engine. Worth checking to see if reliability is better for this basic drivetrain. Fun car for the money.
As far as new goes, your best bet would be: Ford Fiesta, Honda Fit, Kia Soul. The Honda and Kia have more room but are pretty noisy on the highway, the Fiesta has less road noise and better interior materials (and gas mileage). A base Mazda3 may also be doable in this price range; they’re probably the closest thing to a 3-series you’ll find under 20 grand. But you’d be looking at a stripper model; if you’re willing to consider 1- or 2-year-old used examples you should be able to snag a higher-end model, maybe even the Mazdaspeed.
An early-run 2010 Ford Fusion would also be a good choice, though I doubt the V6 is going for much under $20k yet.
I drove a mini recently, and it wasn’t really uncomfortable on the highway. I suggest looking into a used one. Also On the highway, I don’t find myself needing too much power, and really dynamics matter more. I’ve driven an E90 328 and it might actually have too much handling and power. I used 5 series may just be the car your looking for. Pretty reliable and refined. imo
” I suggest looking into a used one”
A used mini?!!? With the sky high resale value and the piss poor reliablity how is that ever going to be a good deal?
I’m almost certainly just wasting bandwith here, but check out a Cadillac DTS “Performance” with the Magnetic Ride Control system or a Lincoln MKZ (that’s the mid-size one).
I’ll go ajla one better in wasting bandwith…
CPO Saturn Aura XR. A guy I work with lost his previous job, came to work for us. BMW’s lease was up, needed a set of wheels fast. Found an ’08 Aura with all of the toys he wanted for ~ $16.5K (this was last year). I was surprised when he showed up with the car, I didn’t expect him to go slumming with us domestic fans. Seems happy with his purchase, AFAIK no major repairs/issues with the car.
Aw, heck. Forget your BMW experience. Forget twisty handling – your 3 hour drives sound like freeway miles. Forget fun. Forget liking the car. You’re in the market for a used here-to-there appliance with comfortable seats. Get a Buick.