Michael Jackson is overrated. There! I said it! You’d be surprised how much trouble that statement has got me into. Not that I’m a stranger to saying stuff that gets me into trouble. If were to say “I think the Rolling Stones” are overrated, most people would shrug and say “Fair enough”. If I were to say “The Beatles’ music isn’t seminal”, most people would say “To each their own”. But every time I say “Michael Jackson’s music all sounds the same and is overrated” people look at me, as if I’ve murdered their children. I just don’t understand this reaction. Why is Michael Jackson above criticism? I mean, Michael Jackson? Is it really THAT blasphemous to question the music of the Mr Jackson? Anyway, this isn’t “The Truth About Music”, it’s “The Truth About Cars”. And it’s this, quite frankly, lack of credulity which gave me inspiration for this weekend’s “Weekend Head Scratcher”.
What car, either currently on the market or in history, do you think is vastly overrated?
Do you shake your head in despair when you see people driving a Toyota Camry? Maybe your heart sinks when you see a Cadillac CTS? Or possibly you think people are wasting their money on a Porsche Boxster?
But don’t think that you can just post “Honda Accord” or whatever car you think and that’s the end of it. Put some thought behind it. We want to know what car you think is overrated, reasons why you think that and (if applicable) a suitable alternative. We don’t want to see baseless ranting (this isn’t YouTube); we want to read reasoned arguments. This is “The Truth About Cars”, not “Goobers Rant About Cars”. So come on, then. Vent your spleen. Strip the Emperor of his clothes.
I think the Porsche Cayenne (V6 model in partic.) is overrated. Makes me wonder why people would consider buying it. It is overpriced for the amount of features you get without any options. Most options you will deem are necessary then have to include in your purchase which will cost you a limb. If you strip the label “Porsche” from it, it’s just… boring. It’s German too.. not as everlasting as an Asian car. A tan interior makes me feel as if I am sitting in the middle of the Sahara. Things start to rattle. Every single thing runs on electricity.
I absolutely hate the ride. It is if I were riding on a ‘tightly coiled trampoline’ which throws me completely off of my seat into the air on speed bumps in my neighborhood. Mash the pedal to the floor and it’s nothing but noise. I only bear with the ride because I feel like a boss driving around town (my girlfriend’s car btw). Tiny bumps in the road are easily muted. Dips and speed bumps will smash your head on the roof.
Why would you opt for a S/Turbo/Turbo S with gigantic rims and low profile tires either. What’s it good for on the unpaved? I doubt you’d consider buying an SUV for strictly commuting which would be a waste because it’s a million dollar vehicle that gets 9mpg and it’s a sport utility vehicle for chrissakes. Go camping with it or something.
The only reason why I think people would buy a Porsche Cayenne is because they can easily afford it and they are just buying the name. Porsche. Waste of money. There are better options, unless you really love it so much you’re sticking your penis in the tailpipe before you go to sleep.
That last sentence was…disturbing.
And for all you teutonophile status slaves, the Cayenne isn’t even built in Germany – the factory is in Slovakia.
Porsche. Waste of money. There are better options, unless you really love it so much you’re sticking your penis in the tailpipe before you go to sleep.
I’m not being judgmental or anything, but at least let the exhaust system cool down or it’ll be the last car you try to know in the biblical sense.
It’s a fashion accessory. It’s like an expensive evening bag, on wheels.
It’s also proof that Porsche are cynical to a degree that is beyond the limit of human understanding.
Yes the Toyota Camry is overrated, the NEW Hyundai Sonata is waaaaay better in every way (including reliability) but because of Hyundai’s previous terrible models (every models actually), people just dont trust them anymore and just think Korean cars are just cheap and terrible. But not anymore Korean cars are now much improved and will soon one day beat the germans in every way. Mark my words. Own your new Koren cars with pride!
Please, don’t replace one overrated with an even more overrated.
The Sonata is weak in so many ways it silly how the press ignors it all ans continually speaks of its greatness.
From steering feel to cheap doors to a rotten interior…..this is the next overrated big thing.
TrailerTrash, I disagree. I had rental Sonata a couple months ago down in Atlanta. I was impressed with the interior (and the Bluetooth integration) and the way the car drove. For its intended purpose (not a performance car) it holds its own against the Camcordibu.
I spent a week in the new Sonata and drive the Camry (2011) a lot as part of my job. In my opinion, Sonata wins hands down in styling inside and out. While it is indeed an all around capable car and a huge step up from its predecessor, the drive train is sill a work in progress. The Hyundai four still feels and sounds pedestrian despite its newness and advertised horsepower. The 2011 Camry with the revised 4 is a much better unit with enough power to render a V6 moot for most applications and an honest 32-34 road mpg to boot. The Toyota drive train in the Sonata would be the deal. I hope they do a dramatic revision with the Camry’s look (the sooner the better) but the smooth power delivery of the new 4 with a 6spd. auto absolutely cannot be denied and will be obvious to anyone who drives both.
And your source for reliability info is?
It’s not possible for a car to have “way better” reliability than the Camry. I’ve got the only reliability data I’m aware of for the 2011 Sonata, and it’s looking average so far. We won’t have solid stats until November, though.
http://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability.php
Again, we are talking about overrated, not crap cars.
The Sonata is not anything special, certainly not worth crowing about.
It’s engine is raspy, although great power.
It’s doors are crap.
It’s driving feels average, perhaps not even as good as the Camery.
No, it is NOT as firm and fun to drive as the Mazda6 or Honda.
Again, we are talking about overrated, and this is not worth the raves it has been getting.
The current Honda Accord which has strayed from it’s roots to the point where it is now the Honda Impala. So sad to see a nimble mid-size car become a Nimitz class ship of the fleet.
Yes, and Honda has regressed to putting a less-powerful four-banger in the base model. In the 1994-97 models, you had to get the EX to get the more powerful VTEC mill, with the 1998 redesign, only the base DX laced VTEC, and all of the 2003-2007 models had it. In 2008, you once again had to upgrade to an EX model in order to get a more powerful four-cylinder. This is progress?
The power curve of the EX motor is identical to the LX motor through 6500 rpm.
15 years ago the Vtec motor in the EX was a noticeably better daily driver. Today it doesn’t make the slightest difference for the kind of car the Accord is
Dan, your moniker suggests that you won’t take spelling criticism the wrong way. You want to use the possessive “its”rather than the contraction”it’s”. It’s a common spelling error.
Actually I was a social studies teacher who couldn’t spell worth a dang (and made common grammatical errors.) I praise the day that “spell check” and “grammar check” were invented and now have gotten to the point where I generally know when Microsoft is trying to steer me wrong. My ex-wife was a Language Arts teacher who was a stickler for grammar. This is one of several reasons she’s now my ex-wife.
I was simply making a blog post. Were I to write an article and submit it to “Ur-turn” I would go over it with a fine tooth comb. At around 6am Sunday morning, not so much.
Dan,
I won’t argue that the Accord has grown in size over its (see what I did there) last few iterations, but I can’t agree that it’s (!) overrated. An LX 5 speed manual sedan weighs just 3200 pounds – think about that. 3200 pounds for a modern, large sedan is almost miraculous. The LX base 4 cylinder has i-VTec, 177hp and a 7000 rpm redline. Double wishbone front suspension, multi link rear. Sublime steering. And you can get it with three pedals as God intended. It’s bigger, sure, but still crazy after all these years.
Dan + sideways 8.
Man, I miss Honda, or rather, what Honda used to be.
I’ll throw my own product under the bus: the Hyundai Tucson. Everyone likes the idea of the Tucson – stylish, sporty, high tech. But customers who drive it back to back with the Santa Fe end up buying the Santa Fe because of the smoother, quieter ride, more room, better visibility, and, with incentives, lower price.
I think most modern cars are really overrated, compared to most cars from the 80’s they are a lot heavier, and therefore not much faster or economical than they used to be. And the comfort and passive safety demands of modern cars are just beyond silly in my eyes.
So you think the fact they are safer, bigger, more comfortable, more reliable, and aren’t a whole lot more faster and economical makes them overrated?
What the hell does a car have to do to make you happy?
Especially since safety doesn’t sell. They tried that in ’56….
I don’t mind cars being safe or comfortable or reliable, but I can live with a car that won’t survive a nuclear blast, and can’t suppress the sound of one. To me most ‘new’ cars feel a bit like playing Gran Turismo on Playstation without the ‘force-feedback controller’ and the sound turned off, especially at anything close to legal speeds. I don’t need a car that can take any turn at 120mph , and can stop faster than the driver behind you can react. And i certainly don’t need 1000lbs of hard plastics… The 80’s was the last time we saw actual vinyl covering foamed cardboard that gave a certain feel of actual craftmanship even in mid-level and cheap cars (not counting japanese or american cars that started the plastic mayhem allready in the 70’s. Luckily I live in Europe (Norway to be precise) so we have loads of fairly decent used cars to choose from yet.
If you adjust for inflation many cars are getting cheaper. That explains some of the shift toward plastics. I beg to differ on the performance level, you had to spend a lot of money in the 80s/90s to get the type of performance I got with my 09 WRX, and even then most of the equals were more cramped sports car than useful hatchback.
I’ve done the calculations, the ’02 WRX which is not nearly as well equipped as my 09 WRX premium went for more money back in the day. Drop down to the base WRX and you get more than you ever did for less money.
Not that it is a good thing, I would have gladly paid more money for my car if Subaru had put in a vinyl covered dash and doors. But the market doesn’t agree with me so we have cheaper interiors…
I’ve always said the entire Toyota line is very highly overrated. There are other vehicles that are just as good and even better. Sure, I know the reason behind it, but if Toyota is so good, why do the have repair shops at the dealership stocked with Toyota parts?
Well, the dealers always had to order parts for my VW, and things on it broke all the time. So having a well stocked parts department doesn’t necessarily equate to an unreliable car.
Agreed. I moonlighted at a high volume used car lot in the early 90’s as a mechanic, and I can tell you Toyotas rep for reliability is more a product of the sales department than the actual vehicles; they lost my sales in ’86. Even certain GM rigs of the ’80s are more reliable.
There is nothing worse than an 80’s GM. You had one bad Toyota, we had 5 horrid GM’s in a row. Took my parents a LONG time to learn. Oh, 2 days after my dad got a 1991 Pontiac 6000(new) It had a no-start condition. I don’t think that car made it 3 years.
Overrated or overpriced? There is a difference. Sometimes both apply and the sedans from Toyota, Honda and Nissan certainly fall into that category.
I’m not sure about over-rated, but two of the most under-rated vehicles have to be the Suzuki SX4, and the Kia Soul. I have had the good fortune to have experienced both in the past few months, and both are spectacular values for their sticker prices.
German cars
BMW 3 series, particularly the M3 with the SMG. Oodles of horsepower? Yes, Fun to drive at or close to the limit? Duh. Fun to drive at 3/10ths, the way most people every day? Umm… no.
Most people have no idea of the handling limits of modern automobiles. They never exceed 1/10th. If they were to approach 2/10s, they would panic and run off the road.
Well then the M3 is totally boned. The transmission is clunky in auto mode and when you put it in reverse it feels like you’re backing up against the parking brake. Not in my opinion ready for prime time.
I really can’t say if the 3 is overrated because it is able to give so much more than the average idiot buying it will ever use, but what does bother me is any car that has a price range from 31K to 60K.
Now I don’t know about you, but it seems to me there should be several separate cars within this and still not be the “3”.
I’m going on my personal experience with several of the recent 3-series models. I’m not saying they are not nice; I’m saying they aren’t the end all, be all.
Trailer Trash –
I’m not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but it seems to me like there are several separate cars within the 3 series.
Not only do you have the Sedan, Coupe, Wagon, and Convertible variants, but BMW treats the 328i, 335i, and 335d all as different models. At the very least it should be easy to see that a M3 is a fundamentally different car than a 328i.
Nullomodo
No, not really…well…sort of.
But you help make my point. Sedan, Coupe, Wagon, and Convertible and every variable/engine/price all bunched into the”3″ series.
I am a little annoyed by this, really.
What IS a “3”????
Will the real “3” stand up!
If we remember all the bashing manufacturers get for platform sharing and we then praise BMW for this, it’s wrong.
The 3 series has more “models” than Jupiter does moons.
The BMW 3 Series is seriously overrated. Styling has long been schizophrenic (though better of late), the interiors are bland, almost dreary, the fit and finish is just a small bit better than the Japanese mass market sedans, the interior is tight, almost clautrophobic (the back seat is hell), the prices with appropriate add-ons are insulting, and reliability is rarely above average, sometimes below. Additionally, the cost of repairs outside warranty almost seems like a form of German revenge for having lost in war. Yes, they handle very well (though the ride with run-flats is iffy), and the engines are smooth (though if the same engines were in Toyotas, nobody would make much of a fuss). Winter weather is not your friend either unless you have all wheel drive, which not only is extra but degrades handling and mileage. Sure, if most of your life is spent on curvy, dry roads with no dawdlers in front of you, you’ve got your car. Otherwise, would you really be so much worse off with a Golf TDI, for instance? Not by my lights.
The 3 is overrated. I have not felt any of the chassis to feel as solid as I’d like. Perhaps its some of the tuning for handling, but every 3 seems to not really be a luxury car. From interiors to space to ride quality its not luxury, many are worst though. Many good traits in the cars, just want some more solid chassis/comfort and a better interior. The new 6 seems to be heading in the direction, too bad its Expensive, Force fed and heavy. Perhaps the next 3 will further address the issues like the E90 has to some degree.
Every current BMW. Weight and gadget creep run amok.
The Smart Car has to be one of the most over rated vehicles on the road. I once read that when compared to the Nissan Versa, that the Smart lost in every area (price, crash test, seating, HP, etc, and tied with MPG). On top of that you have a slow as molasses vehicle with a lousy transmission. So where exactly other than name is the “smart” in the Smart car?
Dumb car!
I guess I would agree that the Smart ForTwo isn’t much of a car, but overrated? Nobody thinks very highly of it, so I guess you can’t say it’s overrated.
You’re wrong about the Smart. If you live in an urban neighborhood like Boston’s Back Bay or any number of places where you’re fighting it out on a daily basis for scarce on-street parking, you’d appreciate a car as small as the Smart. It has its purpose and it’s certainly not for everyone. Depending on where you live in the US, there can be huge differences in the driving environment. What works in Dearborn may not work in the crowded streets of the Boston area or twisty roads in New Hampshire.
Honda Odyssey.
The powertrain is nice, but the rest of the vehicle is just as cheap and plasticky as my previous Chrysler vans. The controls and ergonomics aren’t particularly brilliant either. First among them being the Christmas tree gauge cluster that has too many lights and colors and isn’t smart enough to adjust its illumination to ambient light conditions. Next are the power sliding doors that halt and beep annoyingly if anyone touches the controls while the door is operating, even if the input was for the door to do what is was already doing. And finally, how about the remote locks that won’t lock the doors until the power sliding doors are done closing? Hey Honda, I have better things to do that stand around waiting for my doors to close. How hard is it to program your computer to acknowlege my lock command and then lock the doors after they are done closing? Oh, and don’t forget the road noise. And the suspension clunks.
Chrysler’s power sliding doors are much more intelligently implemented than the Honda’s IMO, and only magnify Honda’s failures here.
The only thing preventing my from buying another Chrysler product last time was their POS agricultural grade powertrains. With the new Pentastar motors, Chrysler deserves more respect.
I think people bought the odyssey. i.e. my family. because the last chrysler minivan we owned had a crap load of problems magically after the warranty went away, such as power brakes failing, the window defroster staying on when the car was off, draining the battery, problems with the hvac etc. I was around 7 years old and I knew that my families 92 dodge grand caravan was a p.o.s. We got the odyssey in 1999 and have over twice the miles on it without any major repairs or really any repairs at all. I now drive the odyssey and I frankly would not have any other car. And all your problems are related to the sliding doors which could be fixed by just buying the base model. You are also wrong about it not locking until the doors close, because you can hit the lock button while the doors are closing and it will lock once the doors close, you wont hear the beep, but it locks the doors.
alb-man: With a 99, I am surprised that you have not experienced the Honda transmission grenade. This problem has been pervasive, and unlike with the Chrysler trannys, cannot be avoided by careful maintenance. I am sorry that your family had such a bad experience with a 92 Caravan. I recently bought a high mileage 99 Town & Country and much prefer it to a friend’s 05 Odyssey. My Chrysler is quieter, tighter and has lots of nice small touches that are missing in the Ody. And mine has double the miles (197K) that his has. And before you call me prejudiced, my last minivan was a high mileage Gen1 (96) Odyssey that was fabulous, but a little small and offbeat. If the GenII Ody had the same genes, I would still be a fan. Alas, it does not.
I guess I would have a better time listing the most UNDERRATED.
Cars like the 2009 Ford Fivehundred/Taurus always seemed to me terribly underrated.
As far as overrated, I guess it would be the crossover of any maker.
If sitting high is the claim to fame, it’s a pretty weak one. Its a whole series based upon image and nothing more.
Given the driving benefits of a wagon or hatch verses a crossover, it’s almost embarrasing to be seen in one.
It screams: I Am Somebody With A Family But Need You To Still Think I Am Rugged Colorado Cool!
If you ask me, the most underrated car is the 05-09 Subaru Legacy GT. It’s a car that can stand toe to toe with any non M 3 Series, has a great interior, looks good, it’s fast and can easily be made faster, the handling is good and you can drive it every day in every weather.
The fact that these things didn’t fly off the shelves is proof that car guys lie through their teeth. Every time a company makes the sort of car enthusiasts say they want, it doesn’t sell.
hulk – I agree on the LGT; great car and great looking too, I always thought. Can’t lay the blame for sales volumes at enthusiasts’ feet though. Let’s face it, 99% of Americans are not car enthusiasts. Given Subaru’s small market share vis-a-vis Japan’s big three and the Legacy’s smaller interior, you can see why it would lag in the marketplace. That said, I’m sure Subaru sold every one they made.
Sorta OT, but spot on for MJ:
“…Did you know that Michael Jackson could sing?
It’s easy to forget that. He’s been busy for the last 30 years or so, first being a celebrity, then a sort of royal screwball, and then a kind of a carnival freak, then an Elephant Man wannabe, and finally John Wayne Gacy Light, or so it appears. But I assure you, I’ve heard it. He could sing.
Now you’re going to be angry with me dear reader, I’m sure of it. Because I’m going to point out that you’re mistaken if you thought he could sing because you bought “Off The Wall” and then “Thriller.” You loved his moonwalking, and overlooked his screeching falsetto, and Quincy Jones’ audio spackle distracted you from noticing that he couldn’t sing anymore. Not even a little.
Quincy Jones produced those records, and Quincy Jones is a very talented man. To a male kid growing up in the seventies, he was da man simply for marrying Peggy Lipton of the Mod Squad. Quincy warmed up by tinkering with Sinatra, after Sinatra had blown his voice out with poor method and booze and cigarettes and putting his head in ovens over Ava Gardener and couldn’t sing much anymore. Sinatra had gotten all the mileage he could from just sort of talking in a singsong way in a low register, with Nelson Riddle riding herd over the half a gross of string players sawing away behind him. Quincy coaxed one last blast of Brooklyn funk from ol’ Blue Eyes’ leather lungs by putting Count Basie behind him, and perhaps reminding him of what he used to be.
But Quincy’s magnum opus was fixing it so you didn’t notice that the greatest child soul singer, ever, couldn’t sing a lick anymore. Every bit of Quincy’s talents were needed to foist this future circus freak on the public, when the freak had nothing left in the tank but a visually disorienting dance step. And Quincy kept moving the musical cups around so you couldn’t find the little ball under the one marked “He can’t sing.” Because poor old Michael couldn’t sing a lick after his Adams Apple showed up….”
http://sippicancottage.blogspot.com/2006/04/did-you-know-that-michael-jackson.html
As far as cars go the 1957 Chevy is vastly over-rated. ’57 was a mistake of sorts, Chevy had planned to replace the “shoebox” but missed the deadline. In 1957 Chrysler cars soared, so much more advanced in style with “Suddenly it’s 1960!” looks and in technology with torqueflite and torsion-aire.
Too bad Chrysler’s brilliance led to shoddy build quality as demand soared greatly. Plymouth’s huge sales advance allowed the mundane Ford to outsell Chevy in ’57 – something Ford hadn’t done in decades. So the stopgap 1957 was actually a very bad year for Chevy but looks good today because its old design had better quality than the competition (both Ford and Chrysler) and the subsequent 1958 and 1959 Chevies were just so bad.
Hmm, I never thought of the ’57 Chevy that way. I was always partial to the ’55 anyway, as it was the paradigm shift and not nearly as gaudy.
+1 on the 57 Chevy. As a new car, it was an also-ran (to the extent that this was possible for a GM car in the 50s). Both Ford and Plymouth ran rings around it in style, size and performance. Regrettably, the Chevy’s one attribute was durability. While the smallblock V8 and the stovebolt 6 were not the best of the pack (the Plymouth takes the nod here) they were not the worst either (Hello, Ford Y block). But mainly, the Chevys stayed on the road while the Fords and Plymouths rusted to ore in most of the US. Add the horrible body issues of the too-hastily introduced Plymouths, the Chevys fame all comes from being the last man standing.
Since I don’t have a good answer for the real question, let me address the music part:
I consider Michael Jackson’s Off the Wall and Thriller albums to be among the top achievements of popular music, right there with some Beatles albums but let’s not enter the discussion of which Beatles album is better………..Revolver! /ducks
Edit: but as pointed above, Quincy Jones may have more to do with it than Michael.
It is a scientific fact that Revolver is the best album. Don’t worry…I got your back on this :)
At most, I’ll qualify that Revolver is the best *pop* album, with Exile on Main Street being the best *rock* album.
As for cars, the love affair with VW is a headscratcher. Interesting, well-handling vehciles, but the reliability is blech. Similar feelings towards Land Rover/Range Rover.
I hate to say this, because I personally love this car, but The Mercedes E-Class (any from the last 15 years or so) is overrated. I say this not because the car drives poorly but because of the shocking level of quality problems.
It may be overrated because when new it is a spectacular car to drive, but as it ages it becomes a serious headache for who ever owns it.
Sad, because I have a soft spot for these cars. Especially the late 90’s versions.
The W124 is sorta legendary, in a good way. Fifth Gear tried to kill one and they couldn’t. You can find that on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTedyrdAzV0&feature=related
The line is that Daimler had historically over-engineered the “E” but the Lexus price challenge led them to de-content and take cost out wherever they could. That showed up in lower quality and reliability in subsequent “E”‘s.
why have fifth gear why you can have TOP GEAR?
Very interesting Thornmark. So the W210 came out in 1996. This seems to be when it all fell apart (literally) for Mercedes.
I was just thinking that I would like to have one of these but doing so would be a bit like owning and old British car. Fun, but a full time job to keep the thing going.
Top Gear is overrated.
Any Panther platform car. Sorry fans, but the handling is like driving a water bed and the refinement is on par with body-on-frame SUVs of the late 90s.
Overrated in what fashion?
Something’s “rating” depends on the intended purpose of the purchaser. The vast majority of the market still wants a *DEAD-RELIABLE* (can’t place enough emphasis on this) appliance. This is why Camcord continues to dominate mid-sized sedan sales and why the Sonata is slowly creeping up – they lead the pack in this arena.
Most of the “enthusiast” gripes with Camcords come down to other aesthetics – handling, power, comfort, interior quality, exhaust note – that 99.9% of the population don’t give a remote shit about. And 99.9% of the population buys 99.9% of the cars.
So I make this point about Camcord’s being “overrated”: They are not overrated for their stated purpose, which is to keep Honda and Toyota in the money. Of course you don’t like them, enthusiasts: They’re not for you.
As for my vote, I give the nod to Chevrolet/GMC and Dodge pickups. Not nearly as reliable or durable as all their marketing suggests, and wholly undeserving of the fierce loyalty given to them by ignorant rednecks who’s diddy’s diddy’s diddy drove a Chevy so he does too. These people must think 50k tranny replacements are a normal part of vehicle ownership.
Ok I’ll be the first. As a brand, Toyota is overrated. For what they were once known, qualtiy, reliability etc has long been matched or surpassed by most other brands. And they’re BORING!
Why would someone choose an Avalon over a Maxima? A Corolla over a Civic? A Camry over an Impala? Yes, Impala! I recently spent 10 days in one and found it to be a comfortable, competent every day driver…and if possible, infinetly more entertaining than the dull as dishwater Camry.
There was a time they created interesting, fun to drive Celica’s, Supra’s et al. Toyota today equals bland, boring, and OVERRATED.
I have to agree with you here. I would include Lexus in this also.
Amen, brother! Toyota just needs to quietly go away…I could put wheels on my toaster and have a more reliable, funner to drive car.
I don’t think the Impala qualifies as entertaining. It excels at its intended purpose, which is a quiet, large car with a comfortable ride and no sporting pretensions.
The last Camry I drove was one of the 2002-06 models, and I thought the four-cylinder was noisy and the cabin not very well insulated especially given Toyota’s reputation for refinement. Maybe there was something wrong with the one I drove.
One of the cars in my stable is a 2004 Lexus IS 300, Sport Design Edition.
I may keep it forever, just so I can remember the very last fun to drive Toyota.
The original Fox platform based Ford Fairmont from 1978-1983, I had the basic 4 door 78 model version of this POS car from Ford.
I have heard some people say the platform was a very good platform and the Fairmont was a decent car, I have to beg difference, fitted with what was then a good, but outdated motor, the 200 CID inline 6 a decent but nothing fantastic automatic, conventional 3 box, boxy design but it was the whole execution of the model itself that left me wondering what Ford was thinking.
First off, the trunk in the 2 and 4 door sedans was much too shallow, a grocery bag (back before the rampant use of plastic bags) would get squashed by the trunk lid, the lid itself required a major slam to get it to latch, it leaked moisture inside, had very lackluster performance, could not get it to do a burn out if you tried due to being terribly chocked off, I think Ford had it worse than Chrysler (before lean burn) and Chevy in this regard for a few years, had weak heat, always had weak heat, could not power into a corner AT ALL without it wanting to plow straight ahead in the front, it just could not corner AT ALL and was anything but refined, even then, and it’s “economical” mileage as listed by I think CR was 13 City, 18 Hwy, um, yeah…
Anyway, I know the Fox platform went on to do much better than it was in that humble model and lasted until 2004-2006 before being retired but in the Fairmont, it was anything but great.
As for more current cars, I’d say the Camcord have gotten overrated, as had their respective marquees in general, at least here in the US. The Camry has always been just a car, even in its early days but the Accord was a sporty, bit larger and more upscale car from the Civic when it debuted as strictly a 3 door hatchback in 1976 and kept that sporty essence right up through the 1990-1993, 4th generation at least.
I had the 1988 4 door LX-I Accord sedan and by then even, it was loosing some of that sporting pretension thanks to being considerably heavier than the first 2 generations despite having something like 120HP through a 2.0L 4 and a slick shifting 5spd as its off the line punch was blunted somewhat due to that weight increase, but it was still sporty as its size was still allowing it to be fairly nimble and I found it a joy to drive down I-5 to LA back in 2002 all loaded down for a failed attempt to find work but sadly, it kept growing, especially after the 5th generation Accord and now it’s as big as a midsize car and has had it’s useful hatchback and wagon models stripped out of the line, true, the 5door hatch is the CUV Crosstour but still… I’ve not wanted an Accord once they ditched the wagon after 1997 and I lamented them ditching the 3 door hatch back in 1987.
Even the poor Civic has grown to the point now that it’s a compact and to me, I think has lost a lot of its sporty pretensions as well and has lost its hatch and wagon configurations and I now no longer want a Civic and had a blast with its 2nd gen 3door hatch, a 1983 Civic 1500DX with 5spd, all of 1500# or so curb weight, with a mere 63HP under the hood and that car was hella fun to drive, it had balls, it got me where I needed to go and gave me a shit eating grin just about every time I got in the damned thing, drove it madly for 6 years between 1992-1998 and it was pure driving pleasure, the Accord wasn’t quite as fun, but still a fun car in its own right.
Sadly, Honda and Toyota seem to have dumb ed down both models to be mere appliances and I wager neither have quite the stellar reliability/build quality of their past, but still plenty good by most standards.
The Ford Fusion and Chevy Malibu are grossly overrated these days. The Fusion may be reasonably trouble free when brand new, but I don’t know how anyone can test drive a new Accord or Camry and settle for one. The Fusion is the closest thing on the market today to an Aries or Reliant in terms of how cheap and old it feels compared to its Japanese contemporaries. The Malibu is a heavy, clumsy non-starter. It is still GM too, and the only people who take ‘this time its different’ at face value from GM were born last night or don’t understand what experience is for. The Porsche ‘911’ is grossly overrated too. It isn’t an accident. Porsche knows how to make magazine editors dance.
BTW, if anyone is really being constantly denigrated for not liking Jackson’s music, stop hanging out with NAMBLA. Even if his music didn’t mostly fester, there is no pop drivel that is worth listening to once you know the artist is a child molester.
there is no pop drivel that is worth listening to once you know the artist is a child molester.
Except we know no such thimg. He was convicted in the court of the media, not in a court of law. And he was too much of a child himself to be a monster. He didn’t fit the profile, either; his actually being a molester is like a bank robber wearing a striped uniform and a racoon facemask, and carrying a bag marked “$”. The simplest explanation is that he had a ton of money, acted just strange enough to make allegations cause a media sensation, and responded very badly + not that he was actually a predator.
Even if his music didn’t mostly fester, there is no pop drivel that is worth listening to once you know the artist is a child molester.
I agree with PeriSoft’s comments on this. Michael Jackson was strange. He arranged for his “wife” to have two children fathered by someone else. He seemed closest, for a while, to a chimpanzee. Even as an adult, he admitted that he liked children to sleep in his bed, and they often did. That is far from normal.
But that is also not a child molester. He doesn’t fit the pattern. Not even close. Comparing him to NAMBLA members is unfair.
As to his music, some like it, and some don’t. He was one of the most popular entertainers of his generation. Perhaps the most popular. He has a legitimate claim to his title of the king of pop.
Even if you choose to believe the words of an obvious freak over those of his victimS, I saw actual images of Jackson suspending his own store-bought toddler from the balcony of a hotel as a punishment. Congratulations on being exactly the sort of people who enabled him to victimize kids. Absolutely heinous.
Sammy B wins the musical portion of this discussion. He posts an absolute truth.
If “overrated” is defined as a triumph of marketing over substance, then I’d have to say the MINI Cooper takes the cake. When it comes to consumer products, overpriced = overrated. The customer ultimately sets the price, after all. Whatever it takes to move the metal becomes the price. By that metric, fun though it may be, the Cooper is defying gravity.
Agreed. I had a Mini for about a year as a weekend car, simply because I needed a 5 spd manual tranny fix every now and then. (Having one for a daily driver in L.A. is insanity…if it isn’t the freeway traffic, it’s the red lights every hundred feet.)
But in the Mini I could never find a comfortable driving position. It was as though one sits on the seat rather then in it. After one year, rather then renewing the registration I took it to Car Max and for a blessedly small loss.
The Audi A4 strikes me as incredibly overrated.
In 2005, I was looking for an AWD car with a manual with decent acceleration. The 1996-1999 A4 2.8 V6 Quattro with the 5-speed manual was in my price range, so I went down to the independent mechanic who serviced my Volvo 940SE (and also worked on VW and Audi) to see what the A4s of that generation were like.
After finding out about the control arm issue on the B5 A4 (if done at an independent mechanic, about $400 per control arm with labor- and the B5 has 12 control arms) I quickly reversed course and bought a Subaru Outback with a 5-speed manual.
More recently (earlier this year) I was looking for cars once again, and my top pick was the BMW 330i from the E46 generation. However, I looked at Audis as an alternative again. Once again, the forums quickly unearthed many repair woes. Water pump replacement that basically requires the front end of the car to come off. Many issues with the 2.0T engine on the 2005.5+ A4s (and the 1.8T’s much worse). Ended up getting a nice ’04 330i with a 6-speed manual.
I cannot understand how Audi has had so much market success in the USA with their horrendous reliability record. Clearly, they’re overrated.
I agree on any Audi. Since the 70s, Audi keeps having waves of success, only to crash and burn in a terrible maintenance/repair/reliablilty disaster. They are very appealing cars when new, but I prefer to admire my Audis from a distance – in someone else’s driveway.
I agree as well… yeah the top of the line A4 is a great car, but I drove a base 2009 A4 with the 2.0l and it was awful. A Honda Accord was nicer inside… and about $5000 less.
“Luxury SUVs” — a totally pointless vehicle.
“Sports sedans” — another overrate catagory. I saw a Aston Martin Rapide parked in Denver yesterday and it looked like an LA chop shop had its way with a DB9. The Porsche Panamera is in the same catagory.
Twotone
Dunno about that. My sti seems pretty sporty compared to a lot of coupes…
All the crossover, for faking to be real truck and costing ten grand more than a decent hatch. It really bugs me to see all the woman going crazy for those. Plus they use more fuel, block the vision of everybody else on the road and offer less usable space than a proper minivan. Die CUV!!!
Sam P: This is just my experience, for what it’s worth. I had a 2006 Audi A4 four cylinder and drove it 46,000 miles on a lease and had not one thing go wrong. Now I’m driving the equivalent 2009 model and did have to have the lower control arms replaced because of a dicey ride. Since then and until now, with 30,000 miles, again no problems. The current one gets 30mpg at a steady 80mph on the speedometer, and has been a pleasure to own. My only complaint is that the MMI is ridiculously complicated and for no good purpose. Other than that, it’s fast, handles well and is comfortable for any length trip. You are paying extra for the general level of finish and if the South Koreans duplicated it mechanically, it would probably sell for substantially less. But I don’t think anyone else currently has the awd sporty and luxurious car so down pat.
Jeff, I agree on how Audi’s mastered the concept of a sporty and luxurious AWD car. I just have read too many horror stories about Audi reliability on such forums as Audiworld.com. Sure, my E46 has its share of potential issues (no cooling system should fail at 60-80k miles, I replaced mine preemptively), but the out of pocket cost and DIY ease seems much easier to live with than the contemporary A4.
Sounds like you are doing the right thing as far as Audi ownership goes – owning the cars while they’re relatively new and under warranty and going to another one once the warranty expires.
Jeff, you’ve just proven Sam’s point. Unless it was involved in a collision a two year old car shouldn’t need control arms (or anything else)!
And even though my BMW needs new control arm bushings (probably do them at the time of the next oil change) it has 75k miles, tracks well with great handling, and the control arms themselves are not posing any problems.
@Sam P, the A4 control arms themselves were fine, too — it was the bushings that dried out and would produce horrendous squeaking sounds. So not much different there than your BMW, although they early A4 bushings generally went earlier than 75K.
The mid to late 1990s Ford Explorer.
Absolutely dreadful ride, abysmal gas mileage, and terribly slow. Yet almost every family on the block had one. Why?
Tough, reliable, excellent build quality, quiet, NEED I GO ON????????????
And I think you got the Explorer confused with the mid to late 90’s 4runner…
I had one. You are exactly right. Why the hell did I buy one? I cannot answer it myself .
…so many, urgh,… thoughts… urm,… no baseless ranting??!?only reasoned arguments?!, !=/0 DOES NOT COMPUTE!, german, merc, italian, 911, 43, 57, Old People, Hike!, Classicksad*%$^kbmmfgfgrrgrfgm, ARrrGH!
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The only car worth a damn is the <strike>one</strike> van you lost your virginity in during high school.
Everything else is an idolized, adolescent echo of that Countach the zen laws say you’re never supposed to meet in person.
And those Penis-Replacement vehicles never do you any good; the girls they attract, you’d never want, and they don’t increase your octane-rating in the sack.
drive a shiny Yugo and save your pennies for <a href=”http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=LY-7020″>maca</a>. -Besides, the smart-quirky girls are always more fun.
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PS: Comment-Entry is AJAX w/formatting UI; +also strips html codes. COMMENT-EDIT has no AJAX formatting controls on it, so you can’t seem to change/format it. Darn.
New Malibus, Camaros and Challengers. Oh, and every crossover on the market. My 2¢.
The Hyundai Genesis…either one.
They’re not bad cars. In fact they’re pretty good. Everyone is just so shocked that they’re Hyundais that they become massively overrated. In fact when you boil them down, they’re flawed and just a little better than average.
The AMC Pacer.
The entire “new GM” lineup. Same old problems, just with arguably better styling and (negligibly) slightly better initial quality.
This morning, I passed a rented Enclave (that was doing 60 in the left lane on I-25) that had its right-front fender misaligned with the passenger door, to the point the paint had rubbed away from the edge where the door made contact.
This is a supposed halo vehicle? A Lexus competitor? Please.
I swear I don’t go looking for these things — they are just a lot of examples out there, and nearly all of them still have rental barcodes on the doors.
Anything German, but especially Volkswagon and Daimler crap.
Acura. I do not understand why people buy these hideous, warmed over Hondas. The current Acura lineup consists of literally the ugliest cars on the road, and the interior design isn’t much better. You feel like you’re sitting in a giant boombox – acres of crappy plastic and shiny lights are NOT my idea of luxury. Nor are the gutless, torqueless, direct-injectionless V6s and 5-speed automatics.
Acura seems to be able to fool enough people into buying MDXs and TLs to stay in business, but even those people can’t be fooled into buying the miserable piece of crap that is the RL, despite the inexplicable rave reviews back when it was released. Hey Edmunds, care to explain why your darling AWD “sport” sedan sells 300 a month?
The Acura TSX.
It is exactly the same as the fully loaded much smaller European version of the Honda Accord. The only difference is the Honda Accord logos have been replaced with Acura TSX logos.
For this they charge more than a fully loaded full size American Honda Accord.
I just sold my Honda that I owned for 10 years. I really liked my Honda, so from time to time I would look at the Acuras and expect to be wowed. I was constantly underwhelmed, so I must agree with you. They do look like they were designed by committee.
Pretty much all new cars are overrated, but all new luxury cars and performance cars are especially so because they’re completely obsolete. Nearly any new car nowadays will deliver more performance than most people will ever use, and an Accord is almost 9/10ths as comfy as an S-class. Ours is a status-hungry “consumerist” society, so it’s just all about image for most people.
But God bless them, in the end it means affordable used cars with plenty of life left in them are common as dirt. Now that’s my idea of luxury — a car that was paid off the day I drove it home. Driving around in a car owned by a financing company is, to me, just about the epitome of stupid. It’s right up there with using credit to buy groceries.
As brands in general, I would say Toyotas and Hondas. Awkward styling, mediocre quality, and dull, dull, dull. Both makers have been on autopilot since the mid ’90s, relying on brand perception instead of continuing to build the innovative and inspiring cars they used to build.
My 2 cents:
Mercedes E320: soundproofing comparable to a Camry or RL but not an ES300 or Genesis.
Acura TSX (previous gen): 0-30mph in 4.5s in an automatic. A 4 cylinder Camry could spank this car in a drag race. Also, handling no better than a 1990 base model Mitsubishi Galant or Contour.
Lincoln LS: 4.0L V8 engine note unworthy of a John Deere, let alone a non-agricultural based car.
Any TDI Volkswagen: low sulphur fuel, check. Black particulate smoke on any model >2 years old, check.
Infiniti Q45: a great car, but wtf with the navigation system buttons? The LS430 had it right with the touch screen.
The Q45 is overrated? Doesn’t someone actually have to praise a car to put it in that category? By the time the Q45 got a nav system it was an also-ran liked by neither reviewers nor buyers.
Beelzebubtrigger:
I noticed your comment about the lower control arm replacements for my Audi, and I thought I might clarify. It seems that one maker of this part (I assume there were others) made a manufacturing error. I say this because my loaner car at the time the work was being done was the identical car to mine, same year, model, etc., and there was no problem whatever. (And I learned that that car never had the problem.) So this was a flawed part but seemingly not a design or engineering error. And it seems to me that Toyota, for example, has been guilty in recent times in all these areas (as have others). So I don’t hold this against the manufacturer since I’ve never owned any car that didn’t require some repair or replacement within the first three years (except for my last Audi!).
Jeff, thanks for clarifying about those control arms.
Still, I really don’t get the whole new car thing. Every five or six years I buy a used car, usually for $3500 or less. Typically I spend between $500 and $1500 to make it “right”, and then over the next five years I might have to spend another thousand on repairs (parts actually, since I usually do the work myself). So normally about $1250/year keeps me mobile with acceptable performance and comfort.
Interestingly enough, I find the safest bet for this strategy is to buy GM mid or full size cars, particularly the H bodies with the 3800. Parts are cheap and ubiquitous, and while they do definitely lack refinement and style they make up for it with durability and very low cost of ownership. They’re also pretty invisible to the police, as well as to thieves and vandals.
This is my strategy exactly with W-bodies.
1.Ford Mustang
2.Ford Mustang
3.Ford Mustang
4.Chevrolet Camaro
5. All Cadillacs
6. Land Rover Freelander
As a GM man, historically I would agree with your Mustang comments. But as an owner of a 2011 Mustang, I love it more every time I drive it. And it is a real value. A lot of car for $25 grand.
I thought we were supposed to give reason’s not just list models. Also, I think you may just not like modern muscle cars.
Older mustangs are overrated, but not the 1966 one I say last week, it was awesome (looking/designed)
Sam P, your mechanic has a significant markup, or doesn’t know much about A4s.
The control arms are a problem. However an entire set of good quality control arms can be purchased for less than $500. About 3 hours labor. I have worked on a few A4’s and have never had to replace “all” the control arms on any A4. My own A4 had (2) replaced in 170,000 miles.
It takes about 30 minutes to remove the front end of a 96-99 A4. It actually makes the timing belt service very easy. It sounds drastic but it’s not.
My Audi cost $300/ year maintenance over 10 years. Not bad at all.
The car of the year – The Chevy Vega!!!
I’m going to go with no on this one. The Vega and its various offspring have been so universally panned since that Car of the Year Award there is no way you can consider it to be overrated.
German cars in general, full stop. Unreliable, expensive to buy, expensive to repair, expensive to option up (BMW gives you vinyl standard on a $30,000+ car for fucks sake!)
They’re coasting on reputation. They may have been the gold standard in the early ’80s but times have changed and there are better luxury options out there.
welcome to 2010. $30,000 is jack shit to spend on a new car. i have no sympathy for someone whining about the features on a $30,000 new car. if you wanted to spend that on a used BMW, you could buy something like my ’06 M5, which a dealer is now offering in the low 30s. big fucking difference from the ridiculous prices that bmw wants for a new one.
(note: I will never buy another new car, until I’ve got more money than I know what to do with. i spent 3 years in the car business and that is the #1 lesson i learned)
The Subaru turbos, particularly the WRX and Legacy GT. I actually like these cars quite a bit and would probably have bought one if I wasn’t concerned about the reliability and costs of a turbo, getting 18MPG on premium gas and the insurance (at least on the WRX). But I often see them perceived as impossible to stop, ultra-reliable, all-weather, all-terrain, oh-so-hip-in-several-in-crowds super cars, but they aren’t quite all that. So, for me they’re Michael Jackson. I can see the appeal; I can see the skill involved, but the best? Let me throw some snow tires on a decade-old Honda, grab a Coltrane CD and take you for a ride.
It would have been easy to say the Camry, but I don’t think many people think of it as anything other than the well-put-together, competent but dull commuter it is. The Civic, however, has a lot of people who think it’s a supercar.
For the people saying the BMW 3-series: As an FYI, I may have once thought you have a point, but I test drove a 2006 328i the other night, as I was trying to figure out why I felt something was missing in a 2006 TSX I nearly bought. In short, my first experience driving a BMW wasn’t so much a test drive as an epiphany.
German cars in general, full stop. Unreliable, expensive to buy, expensive to repair, expensive to option up (BMW gives you vinyl standard on a $30,000+ car for f***s sake! Can you imaging the snickering that would take place if Cadillac or even Lexus did something like that?) They’re coasting on reputation. They may have been the gold standard in the early ’80s but times have changed and there are better luxury options out there, from Japan and, at least at the low end of the range, from Cadillac. You might call it a “reverse perception gap”, German cars are seen as good no matter what, look at what MB did in the ’90s.
Thanks for making us look at that pic Cammy; that may be the most hideous looking human being on the planet, you can’t be overrated when you’re not actually famous for doing anything however.
As far as my most overrated car, I would say the Toyota Carolla. Not that anyone out there really seems to be in love with the Carolla, just that they sell so damn many of them when there are other models in the same category that have at least a little bit of style or excitement. The Carolla is so devoid of any of these that there just seems to be a pall of misery that surrounds it. Every person I’ve ever seen get in or out of a Carolla has a look on there face like the just got diagnosed with cancer of the soul, poor bastards.
I also want to bring up the Aztec, certainly the most overrated car ever in terms of how awful it really is. This is the ugliest car ever made (the Russel Brand of cars maybe?) the car that killed Gm ect ect. Except in real life they really aren’t that ugly, so long as they aren’t that hideous yellow, and there are tons of them still running around with high miles, so they aren’t as unreliable as other infamous vehicles. I’ve known many GM employees who bought Aztecs with huge discounts due to fact they couldn’t move any (Im talking 13 grand out the door brand-new) and have never had any regrets about their purchase. While others who paid twice as much for a Blazer around the same time had the things fall apart on them before 75K miles.
C5 Corvette with the LS1 engine.
I never have felt that they had the necessary performance or quality to justify their $10K+ price premium over the F-bodies and supercharged SVT Mustang.
Comparing a C5 to an F-Body is like comparing an Accord to a Yugo. GM has done precious little right over the past 40 years, but the C5 is one of the positives.
The ’97-2004 Vette wasn’t just a revelation compared to the archaic C4; it was finally a legitimate contender to the world’s best sports cars. Too bad it was saddled to a company that still thought the Cavalier represented the pinnacle of mainstream automotive development.
Comparing a C5 to an F-Body is like comparing an Accord to a Yugo.
Geez, hyperbole much? I’d say its more like comparing an Accord with a TL.
I’m just calling it like I remember it here. I’ve driven a 2000 C5 manual convertible and a 1999 automatic coupe. I did not come away from either thinking that the car was the pinnacle of GM the way everyone thinks. The Z06 or lower-priced FRC might be different story, but I’ve never driven those.
Money no object the C5 wins, but you tell me, where did the basic C5 earn its $11K price premium over a GTO, WS6, or SVT Cobra? They should have topped out at $40K, not started there.
the only C5 I ever drove was a ’03 z06. i recall that the transmission and steering made it feel a lot like the dump truck that we use on my family’s farm. mind-bogglingly terrible car.
The Lexus ES; a larded up Camry with a $10k price premium and wicked torque steer. Fine for my grandma (who loves her bright red ’09), but for the 40-ish guys I usually see driving it, what the hell?
Toyota Corolla. Clearly a car living on its past reputation. It’s very rare that when in a car I actually prefer to be in the passenger seat, but this is one of those cars. A dreadful and uncomfortable car with exterior styling that redefines the word dull. I can’t understand how they sell so many of them.
I don’t get the Corolla hate. It’s very good at what it is supposed to be–cheap transportation. It’s dead reliable, has good fuel economy, good insurance rates, and so on. Yes, it’s anonyous, yes, it’s boring, but that’s what it is SUPPOSED to be! You can’t knock a car that fulfills its intended role, even if you happen not to like that role.
But let me second the Lexus ES. Tarted up FWD Carmy that gets pass, but the Lincoln MKZ or is dogpiled on all the time for being a “tarted up Fusion”, and less frequently the LaCrosse is for being a “{tarted up Malibu”. What the hell? They’re they same idea.
I’ll also add the new Hyundai Sonata. I understand it’s a real, genuine home run in terms of sales, but the more I look at it the more I think it’s the ugliest mid-sizer since the late ’90s Taurus. I predict it will not age well.
Have you driven the current version? I really found it to be that bad. The previous version, the only complain I had was a lack of a telescoping wheel. The current one has bad steering, bad throttle tip in, now outdated 4spd auto, bad seats (for me), and no style. P.S. I drive a Toyota and have no hate for the brand, but will never be a fanboy for inferior products. The 5 year old Civic is a much better car.
I admit I haven’t driven the current version, but I rented the previous generation several times and found it to be more than competent for what it was made for. And had a brief experience with the Chevy version of the Corolla before that–it was my Driver’s Ed car in high school.
A Civic, Focus, or Mazda3 can be had for similar money to a Corolla that will give similar efficiency, similar low insurance rates, and similar reliability, all while offering a lot more in the fun to drive category.
Porsche Boxster, or any water-cooled Porsche.
I owned a 2006 Porsche Boxster S for 2½ years, and then sold it and bought a Honda S2000. I sold the Boxster because of the looming problem of IMS (Intermediate Main Shaft, which is resulting in somewhere around 10%-20% of Boxster engines grenading and dying an early, and expensive, death – because of blatant cost-cutting). I personally am done with German cars, at least new(er) ones, pretty much anything German built since about the late 1990’s onward.
The Boxster was an absolute blast to drive, as are all Porsche cars. There’s nothing like a mid-engine car and its low polar moment of inertia for phenomenally neutral handling. But, while it was a lot of fun to drive, owning the Boxster was a different experience than a half hour test drive. It is a great combination of performance and luxury. However, Porsche has also done a fantastic job of marketing itself over the years. The company has set standards for skillful product placement. So many movies and television shows have Porsches in them whenever “upscale, affluent” lifestyles or “beautiful people” are depicted. Porsche itself now touts the “Porsche lifestyle” in their marketing, just like BMW. Their efforts have been phenomenally successful. Most people think “Porsche” when they think “upscale” car, or “upscale” lifestyle. Just like the cigarette advertising of the second half of this century, a whole generation – us – now has Porsche successfully branded on our psyches as the “it” car to have. Most people that are – or want to be – “upscale” want to have a Porsche (BMW has been even more aggressive with brand image marketing, maybe Porsche gets the silver medal to BMW’s gold in this regard).
For many years Porsches richly deserved that reputation. The 911, which started the whole legend, was for decades fun to drive, beautifully engineered, and reliable, the standard by which all others were judged. There has never been anything else like it. I’ve owned several air-cooled Porsches before the Boxster, starting with the 356. The last one I had was a 1990’s 964 series 911, one of the later air cooled ones, and will always regret selling it. Unfortunately (IMHO), Porsches today have morphed into a different animal. After years of aggressive marketing – and, even more distressingly, relentless cost-cutting – Porsche is focused only on maximizing profits.
Think about this: Porsche’s company mottos in the past used to be “Excellence is expected”, or “There is no substitute”. For the past 10 years, ever since the introduction of water cooled Porsches, the official company motto under the unfortunate Wiedeking reign was “The most profitable car company in the world”. The IMS issue is what you get when a company – and its CEO – are focused on maximizing short-term profit, no matter what.
If you take a close, critical, objective look at the Boxster, it is apparent that the company has gone through it with a fine toothed comb looking for ways to cut costs. Porsche even worked with Toyota to wring every last penny of costs out of their water-cooled cars. They clearly looked at everything and asked, “will people still buy it for the same price if we do this”? The Boxster doesn’t even have a limited slip differential, which is shameful in any sports car (but then, the mall profiling crowd will never know the difference). It even lacks an oil dipstick, instead using an electronic oil measuring system (might seem cool at first, but it’s a lot more straightforward, and reliable, to just pull out a dipstick and see the oil level and condition). Save $5 here and $10 there, the next thing you know, it’s $1,000 more profit per unit, an impressive accomplishment in the razor-thin margins of the automobile industry – and you’re on your way to becoming the ‘most profitable car company in the world’.
People may poke fun at crudeness of Mustangs or the rattles of a Hyundai, but even in a $12,000 Korean car you can reasonably expect the engine to last 100,000 miles if it is given a modicum of care. In this day and age, when reliability is expected, selling any car, especially a $60,000 one, where 10% to 20% of engines might fail at any time, without warning, is reprehensible and completely unacceptable. Think about how people would react if 10%-20% of Toyota or even GM engines would fail unpredictably. People would take to the streets with torches and pitchforks like the villagers heading for Frankenstein’s castle.
In addition to the appalling IMS design flaw, there were a few other things that ultimately I just couldn’t stand about the Boxster – which screamed of cost-cutting and brazen attempts to reach into my wallet and empty it – which is why I sold it –
1) The car is fragile. The seat leather was so cheap that every 4th or 5th time I drove the car I had to recondition the leather because it would wear through the dye. Buttons would break. Electrical components would fritz. The top was wearing holes through it (which might not have been tolerable if a replacement convertible top wasn’t $6,000).
2) You can’t see the engine. It’s in a sealed bay, accessible only from the bottom (peeking at it after spending a half-hour removing a panel under the top doesn’t count). Engine access in a mid-engine car is always tight (I’ve had mid engine cars before), but the Boxster is specifically designed to discourage owner access and force you to bring it to the dealer for everything, since the only way to get to the engine is on a lift and by removing the belly pan. Which results in…..
3) Maintenance costs are heart-stopping, and for no good reason. The Boxster was designed to make owners dependent on the dealer, and addicted to expensive – and not easily substituted – maintenance. Oil changes are $230. Brake rotors last about 15,000 miles. The final insult was when the dealer tried to shake me down for a $450 annual “comprehensive inspection”. When I asked why, they said that if I ever had a warranty claim – like, just maybe, IMS – they wouldn’t back it up unless they did this “annual inspection” to verify proper maintenance, no abuse, etc. Which means, the dealer wants a $450 yearly bribe just to honor the warranty the car came with. I guess the dealers are just following Wendelin Wiedeking’s example of vacuuming up owner’s money any way they can.
Where the Boxster was unreliable, the S2000 is a robust Honda. Where the Boxster was fragile the S2000 is well built. To the Boxster’s lack of engine access and outrageous maintenance costs the S2000 has the best engine access of any car I’ve owned in the past 10 years, and with simple, straightforward upkeep costs.
Overall, after owning both, the S2000 to me just feels like more of a true enthusiast’s car, while the Boxster has evolved into more of a car for posers, or for orthodontist’s mistresses (some posers might be too insecure to have an objective discussion about cars, but then, maybe the old joke about (some) Porsche owners and porcupines is true…. ). To me, the S2000 has similar performance, is much more reliable, and costs half as much. Every time I drive it I get a huge smile on my face, and can’t believe a car can be this much fun (in some ways even more “fun” than my 911, which was a fantastic but ‘serious’ car).
And, I don’t worry about a ticking time bomb of a design flaw in the S2000’s engine waiting to grenade itself without warning or provocation like the Boxster’s IMS Sword of Damocles hanging over the head of every owner.
I know many people consider it sacrilege for me to not unquestioningly worship at the altar of Porsche, and I’m sure I will no doubt be lambasted for my blasphemous comments. But, I’ve been to the top of the Porsche mountain, and while I loved my old 911, the Boxster just is not a Porsche from the “excellence is expected” school – it seems to be built by the same kind of people and mentality that brought us the current wonderful economy.
Porsche’s former CEO Wendelin Wiedeking, and his partner in crime ex-CFO Harald Härter, were at one point congratulated on their masterful and cunning, but also devious, scheme in which Porsche tried to acquire VW. Since hedge fund managers are among the lowest forms of life on Earth, some people thought that maybe Wiedeking and Härter should have gotten a medal for giving them a taste of what they have been doing to the rest of us. Well, now we all know how that worked out – a financial whip-saw which saw Porsche on the verge of bankruptcy, and then acquired by and now a part of VW (though it worked out just fine for Wiedeking, with his more than $100 million severance package).
These shenanigans showed where their heads were at. They were obsessed with profits at any and all costs. They were not focused on making great cars. Their priority was to come up with conniving tricks to make money. While in the short term profits were up 52%, we all saw how it backfired. And now, Porsche as an independent car company is no more. Maybe VW will straighten it back out, but in the meantime, I don’t want to be part of it and own a car built by those kind of people.
The fantasy is that Porsches are built by bespectacled engineers in leather aprons, lovingly assembling each engine by hand. While there may have been some kernel of truth to that image in the past, for the past decade the reality was Wiedeking and Härter with a spreadsheet looking for one more corner to cut to make another buck (or Euro, as the case may be) today.
Porsche owners can be very passionate about their cars. I used to be. That passion could easily become anger as owners realize they were duped. Wiedeking better look out his window to check for a crowd with torches and pitchforks on the horizon (though with his consolation prize, he’s no doubt safely ensconced somewhere out of the reach of the angry mobs).
Wait a minute…. I think I may have seen this movie before. Let me think…. Glorious past history… great cars that were the standard of the world, that people genuinely wanted to buy…. Dedication to engineering and quality…. Then, mushrooming egos, sacrificing quality for the sake of chasing more short-term profits, obsession with money, growing disregard for the product which ultimately led to buyers getting tired of being burned and walking away, and ultimately, ignominious and humiliating defeat. Isn’t this the same kind of myopic nonsense that got the American car manufacturers swirling down the porcelain bowl, with GM and Chrysler needing to be bailed out by us?
wow…
you had me at Porsche.
To be fair, Porsche engines are still assembled by hand, and many of the people doing it are wearing spectacles and aprons. :)
As a Boxster S owner, I don’t disagree with everything you’ve said, but the idea of the S2000 being any better has to be some sort of joke. My brother runs an S2000CR in the SCCA National Solo Series. The cars are notoriously fragile. The transmissions lose second gear with numbing regularity. The clutch delay valve often fails without warning, leading to an expensive unwarranted service. And the AP1 cars are starting to eat their motors.
Don’t forget that Honda has somehow managed to make a four-cylinder engine that, although it turns out six-cylinder power, also has six-cylinder weight. The S2K itself is less spacious for people and cargo than the Boxster while weighing about the same. The leather and interior plastics are even worse.
A great primer on why not to buy a Porcshe.
Over the years I’ve toyed with the idea of ordering a bespoke Boxster as a warm weather play thingie. I first heard of the IMS problem here on TTAC in 2007.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wild-ass-rumor-of-the-day-porsche-boxster-engine-failures/
But now I think that I’m done for Porsche. I will however give a glance at the S2000.
Just a point, but the S2000’s problems become epidemic only when the car is thrashed, while a Boxster’s running costs are apparent even on “secretary’s cars”.
Jack B.,
Did your bro. learn how to drive from you?
All BMWs and PORSCHE’s. MUSTANG. CORVETTE.
Absurdly overpriced across the board. Especially Porsche. $65000 for a COXSTER? That car should be low 30s. And ugly.
Cayenne is an obscenely priced Volkswagon.
Mustang GT, still a live axle rear end? Are you kidding me? But a real modern rear end on this car, it would be great. Maybe the best that America is capable of making.
Corvette. Made out of recycled pop bottles I think. An interior that would be bad on a Colbalt. The worst seats in the world. The styling is also seriously dated. And I have affection for Vettes.
“Agreed. I moonlighted at a high volume used car lot in the early 90′s as a mechanic, and I can tell you Toyotas rep for reliability is more a product of the sales department than the actual vehicles; they lost my sales in ’86. Even certain GM rigs of the ’80s are more reliable.”
What utter drivel! Have a look at this: http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/p/1948/10-cars-mechanics-hate
’57 Chevy. Well, I can’t say for sure, but I think the one my parents had was a POS–though in terms of reliability, better than the competition (Ford, Plymouth). Still, it was going geriatric by about 75k. And granted, it was a 210 wagon, but it lacked power and the handling was bad. I don’t even think it was a good looking car–although it wasn’t bad.
I agree with all of the BMW haters on here, even though we have an X5 in the garage. My better half refuses to drive anything else, and I’m constantly mystified by the allure of the overly complicated controls, the bizarre combination of limited offroad capability AND a punishing ride, and more plastic than the Rubbermaid aisle at your local discount store – with the exception of the hood/bonnet, the entire front clip is clad in urethane. And ill-fitting urethane, at that.
But then again, I’ve never thought that BMW and Porsche had any business trying to build CUVs…
My parents’ ’57 Chevy 210 wagon. Very little power. bad handling. the car went geriatric around 75k. We sold it at 102k, when we left for France for the year, but I suspect my parents wouldn’t have kept it much longer even if we’d stayed put. It was in bad shape. All that said, it was a hell of a lot more reliable than the ’57 Plymouth, and also did not suffer from the amazing body rot the Ply had (you could see the road through the floor when the thing was about 4 years old). But the Ply handled better, and had more power.
Anyway, the ’57 was legendary in family lore, but mistakenly so.
The 3 series is overrated. 42000 with no options in the 335i and you get a leatherette interior? what the heck is that?
Ok, maybe overrated is the wrong word. but overpriced? oh yeah,
Acura TSX.
Exactly the same as the much smaller European Honda Accord with only the name plates changed.
For that they charge more than a full size American Accord
Every current Ford product.
They are all severely over rated and they continually under deliver.
Incisive commentary, there. Do you have any more detail than, “ford is overrated because they under-deliver”? I mean…
Replace “Ford” with “General Motors” and it sounds more convincing.
I have some ideas for future questions – your favorite car you have owned and your least favorite. My least favorite car was the 2000 Toyota Camry. Both my wife and I HATED that car. I am another vote for the camry as the most overrated car.
This thread has made me all the happier with my ’99 Accord 2.4L 5 speed. It’s a terrific car. Very responsive engine–even if not the most powerful in the world, nice handling, very reliable even with 179k on the clock, good gas mileage. It may not be Mozart, but it IS Salieri to the Boxster’s Mozart.
The Terrain and Equinox. 10 years and 2.5 million Rav4s and CR-Vs later GM finally offers a somewhat competitive crossover and the line is so long people are paying sticker for them. Nuts to that.
Anything with a Lexus badge.
The most over-rated models as discussed on car forums: any non-Corolla or non-Camry offered as an alternative to the never-actually-explained ‘bland and boring’ critiques of Toyota.
The Mazda 3 would outsell the Camry if only the stupid buying public would realize how a great performer it is and that the space and refinement of the Camry are negatives(aka the Camry should emulate the WRX).
Why has no one mentioned the 2006 and up Honda Civic? I finally dumped my 06 last week(traded it in a Kia Soul…I hope this isn’t another mistake),as the leaking rear shock at 40,000 miles was the last straw!
Living with the fact that the motor was cast wrong(they will crack and start leaking anti-freeze),and if it’s out of warranty,one has the joy of fighting with Honda to fix it(even though Honda knows all about it),was getting too much!
Due to the rear suspension being designed wrong(another flaw Honda knows about,but will not recall,or fix,without a fight,once your warranty is over),the car would wander all over the road(much like driving a 75 LTD),and eat tires on a regular basis.
The interior plastic marks up so very easily,the transmission(automatic) always shifted funny in the cold weather,banging noises from the front end…..YIKES!!
I’m sorry to burst the Honda bubble,but these cars a JUNK!! (goggle troubles with 06 civics,and read all about it).
Now with this being said,I still enjoy my 05 Accord very much,but I doubt very much that I’ll ever buy another Honda product,which is too bad,as I have been a Honda owner ever since 1985(a CRX).
Well seeing that click and clack picked the honda odyssey, I wouldn’t take stock in everything they say. http://www.odysseytransmission.com/
Great question Cammy – monster page hits. Totally 100% agree with you though. What on earth do people see in Russell Brand? Neither attractive as a personality, wise, insightful or witty, he offers nothing to the world of comedy. Completely over-rated unfunnyman from Essex. Complete waste of hairspray IMO.
As to the car question, I’d just ask ‘overrated by whom’? Not something I tend to do. Realism is a great partner to sound judgement.
I’ll say the Nissan Sentra. The steering wants to return to the center position so much that it feels like you’re constantly turning the wheel against a spring. The throttle is touchy, and the brakes are touchy/grabby. I really dislike the driving feel.
To be OVERrated you have to be noticed in the first place. The Sentra is just a mediocre car.
Any Porsche with the PDK transmission. Maybe it’s great on the track, but it feels like a newbie driver in city driving and carefully keeps the engine out of the power band in auto mode.
The Nissan GT-R is the most overrated car on the planet currently…
reasons:
1) It’s a Nissan, who in his right mind pays that much (dealer mark up) for a Nissan?
I agree, the performances are great for the MSRP price, but factor in the total price after dealer mark up, brand equity, and you’ll be far better with a Porsche, corvette or even a slightly used ferrari.
2) some journalist called it Godzilla, and lo and behold the media gurus at Nissan could not get enough of it. daily news stories and tid-bits since its launch have accelerated its fall from grace. it was a phenomenon like 18 month ago, now it’s just a Nissan. whereas a 911, is still and always will be a 911…you can’t get a stronger brand recognition, even if you photocopied the whole car down to the nuts and bolts…
3)Nissan’s pompousness and stupid warranty policies. [listen kids, you all get a bunch of chewing gums when you come in to class in the morning, but it you chew them we will kick you out.] that is what the Launch Control hoopla in a Nissan GTR is all about, they give you an industry first option, and forbid you to use it…
4) a GT-R can only be fixed by a Nissan dealer, and gray imports are not fixed, serviced, repaired or even acknowledged even if the car is still under guarantee.
5)the interior: for such an expensive car, you’d think a bit more would go into the interior…
6)the GT-R is just a case of Nissan wanting to prove that Nissan can make a product as good as a 911 turbo but for less than half the price. their media blitz and marketing campaign failed to cement it as a sporting car icon, and the inflation of the price by dealers made a 911 turbo look like a steal…
I think the GT-R is the most overrated car in the past 10 years….the Toyota Prius comes in second place.
“Godzilla” Dates from the late 1980’s, when the Skyline GT-R mopped the floor in several racing series across the globe. It was responsible for putting an end to group A.
oh wait. It’s a car from japan therefore,
VW is easily the most overrated brand out there, most especially the GTI. I mean that thing is just plain and slow and it’s FWD (slower than even the “crappy” Cobalt SS). The interior plastics peel off after 2 to 3 years as well. Whoever thinks these things have good driving dynamics has never driven a Subaru or a BMW.
Corvette.
All GM’s really. The also have the most obnoxious fanboys.
Any new car.
If you can wait 2-4 years you can get very substantial savings on the car of your choice. Often about half the cost of new. Or 40% off new, anyway. Sometimes more -depends on brand/model.
It used to be that a car with 50k on the clock was half used up. Now I’d expect anything, even Chrysler products, to go 150k, or more. I don’t mean w/o repair – you have to be talking Honda to go 150K with only scheduled maintenance. And Hondas hold their value so they aren’t particularly good used car buys. But if you buy something 2 to 4 years old, you’ll never sink as much into repairs as you got in savings. At least it’s very unlikely.
Of course, if there weren’t people out there buying new ones, I suppose there would be no supply of cheap late model used cars with lots of life left in them.
I can get a Mustang convert. with at least 10 years of life in it for less than $15K.
Astonishing that no one has mentioned the Chrysler 300 and/or Dodge Charger. Very over-rated. Chrysler promised filet mignon and delivered horse meat…
The Camry and new Sonata own the overrated award for midsized sedans. Neither drives very well, despite receiving (popular press and owner) accolades. The Maxima should come in for some stick here as well, that transmission ruins an otherwise good car, and it doesn’t get called out for it nearly enough.
In the bigger class, I’d say the new Taurus is by far the overrated king. I’ve driven one now (not an SHO) and it was awful. Big, poor visibility, blah suspension, and yet it gets a lot of positive mention, much of it right here on TTAC. At least it has a decent interior, but still…
There are no overrated sports cars. :)
I have to say it’s refreshing to know that such an amazing variety of opinions and preferences can coexist in the commenter base of this web site. Another reason why TTAC has become my preferred source for automotive news, reviews, and commentary since I discovered it with the Camry accelerator teardown.
In my opinion, the most overrated vehicles are the current Acuras. An entire lineup of vehicles based on tarted up Honda platforms that themselves have become obese, dull vehicles that bear almost no resemblance whatsoever to the efficient, spirited Hondas of the ’80s and ’90s. If BMWs were once the “ultimate driving machine,” Acura had attempted to be the “ultimate gadget machine,” with an instrument panel filled with overly-bright lights, a center console so many buttons that it begins to resemble a jet cockpit. This might be one line that should adopt the “night mode” of Saabs to turn off all the distracting lights. However, they can’t even get the gadgetry right. Their once class-leading touch-screen navigation systems now lag behind those of other marques such as BMW which offers a vastly superior display with Google integration which no Acura has. All the while, Honda’s former engineering prowess which brought us such wonders as the CVCC has made all of one contribution: their “super-handling” AWD system which is nothing more than another gadget, a feeble attempt to give some response to those who demand something other than wrong-wheel-drive. Despite being far underpowered in comparison, a 328i managed to handliy beat out a TL with SH-AWD in a C&D test. Finally, the last nail in the coffin is the “aggressive” styling that Acura has adopted, I can only assume as an attempt to give visually an indication of sportiness or athleticism which the platforms that underly the body cladding just can’t deliver. Remember a Pontiac Grand Am of the late ’80s, early ’90s? Modern version. Alternatives? Well, if you want reliability or luxury, there’s Lexus. At least Lexus’ line-up of cars has the GS and LS which are unique designs not based on a Toyota product (at least not one available in the U.S.). If you want sport or, I hate to admit, gadgets, and are willing to pay for it, there’s BMW.
“I don’t need a car that can take any turn at 120mph , and can stop faster than the driver behind you can react.”
But that’s exactly what I want. And what makes the much-derided 3-series so appealing. Has BMW given in to consumer demands for bigger and bigger vehicles, etc.? Would I prefer an E46 to an E90? Yes and yes.
No car choice here but I say that Michelin tires are hugely overrated and overpriced. Especially by car safety wonks who will tell you if you buy a set of Yokohamas or Kumhos that your life is forfeit.
The new Ford Taurus…..A platform used by the S80, the Five Hundred, the rebadged Taurus and now an uglier bloated Taurus Ford tries to pass off as brand new.
A car that looks much worse in person than pictures. Gun slit windows, a “dent” in the rear fender and huge ass.