[Update: Ooops; I didn’t notice that Sajeev already has a post questioning these oils’ testing regime. In case you missed it, or just want the heads up before you join that discussion, here it is, in the less-controversial version]
Few subjects stir up more controversy than motor oil. Now it’s time for the latest perpetual changing of the current required new oil for new cars. AutoNews reports that GM, Ford and Chrysler are making the switch to a new generation of oils for their 2011 vehicles, known by their grading as GF-5, SN, or in GM’s case, Dexos 1. Be aware: using any oil other than one of these may void the powertrain warranty. (I might have thought GM would have retired the “Dex” moniker).
As usual, the new grade are designed to help engines run more efficiently, protect from wear, handle heat associated with turbocharging, and extend oil change intervals. The difference between GF-5 and Dexos? Testing. GF-5 is an American Petroleum Institute (API) testing protocol, while Dexos, a GM licensed-brand, uses parts of the European ACEA testing protocol. Dexos has to meet Mercedes’ as well as Opel’s requirements.
The new GF-5 oils are available in both conventional and synthetic formulations, but the Dexos1 is only made as a synthetic. There are already certain oils on the market that meet the new GF-5 and Dexos1 designation, like Pennzoil Platinum and Quaker State Ultimate Durability.
Longer oil change intervals are part of the equation. GM doesn’t give a specific interval recommendation other than the oil-monitor’s, or specific driving conditions. Ford says 10k mile intervals are now ok. Somebody please let Jiffy Lube in on this.
And it’s ok to new use the new oils in older cars, just in case you were wondering.
So let me get this straight. I refuse to buy (or rent) a GM car, so now the government is going to force me to buy Government Oil?
Silly me, I always thought my Amsoil was good enough.
No. You only have to use the dexos oil in GM cars, which you said you’re never going to buy. Other new cars use the GF-5 rated oil.
I expect that Amsoil will certify its oils to the newest GF-5/SN specification level. Considering past history, Amsoil will probably also market its oils as being “suitable for” Dexos applications without going through the hoops required to actually use the name. No worries, there is not a big bad government conspiracy to get you away from your beloved Amsoil.
Does it mean I have to get the oil changed at the GM/ford/Chryco Dealer? Or can other shops offer the same oil?
and will more than that one GM/ford/Chryco brand be allowed (like setting a standard and 10+ oil manufacturers can deliver the standard to keep prices down)
If the oil is proper the 10k changes shouldn’t be a problem. In Europe 2/year/ 20K mile is pretty standard nowadays. Yes I know, they don’t keep than cars as long as here since they have safety/emission checks that kick out the clunkers.
I’m doing the 7500 mile oil changes (or once a year whichever comes first) on my Mazdas as recommended by Mazda. the new hondas have 10K miles and oil wear indicator. So this isn’t really as revolutionary as it sounds. My old 98 Buick also had 7500 miles oil changes according to GM.
Of course, according to Jiffy Lube you should change oil every mile. And when you stop by there they’ll tel you you NEED to do another list of $ 500 items. Even if you flushed the coolant yesterday, you HAVE TO do it again or the car will explode. I always bring my cars to the OEM dealer. I went once in a non-dealer shop and got the whole list of hundreds of $ that I really need to have them replace. Never again…
Since several brands already sell these new approved versions, and more are coming, I would have to assume not, but keep a receipt or record to prove that’s what you used to be safe.
Dealers can be just as bad. Last time I went for an oil change at my dealer they told me:
Critical: Transmission oil found to be dirty
Critical: Brake fluid found to be contaminated
Critical: Coolant found to be diluted
Caution: Tires worn
Total charge for recommended maintenance in excess of $1200
When I asked how they tested the transmission fluid as I had recently changed this they said actually they don’t test it, they just go off the record of when it was last changed by them. As none of these items have actually reached the manufacturer change interval I decided it was time to leave and never go back.
@bludragon, I was about to quip how they might have determined your coolant was “diluted” since it is a closed system, but you hit the nail on the head by finishing with, “… it was time to leave and never go back.”
This looks like a new way for GM to scam the public make money. They will apparently license (for royalty fees of course) others to use the Dexos cetification.
Unfortunately this company specific lubricant things isn’t just a GM issue. Honda has a special spec from the Acura RDX. VW has special oil specifications for all of its vehicles. Almost every company has gone for proprietary branded transmission fluids. Oddly enough, until this move GM had been one of the leading companies for using industry standard lubricants.
Warranty Denial
I believe that NO dealer or manufacturer can cancel a warranty UNLESS they can prove what action(s) taken by the owner caused the failure of the manufacturer’s part.
In this case of oil/lubricants, the damage MUST be proven for denial of warranty.
This has been proven in court.
@ Trailer Trash
Dealer service departments can claim a muskrat took a dump in the oil fill tube after removing the cap. It’s up to you and your $350/hr attorney to prove that could not happen and even if it did, it did not cause the valve stem to break and a piston pound it through head.
Winning your case is a crap shoot because you are up against a group that knows far more angles than you ever will. Winning your case and getting reimbursed for your legal fees, which is what you need to break even, has long, long odds. You are showing up carrying a rock to a gunfight.
Show up making with the real nice with all your records carefully organized. Show them the maintenance log in the Owner’s manual (you DO keep it current, don’t you?) with receipts for all the parts and fluids matching work claimed. Pay the $40 for the two gallons (you only need 5.5 qts.) of 50/50 Honda-brand anti-freeze and tell yourself “its for the kids”. Be happy the Honda-brand brake fluid is only over-priced by 50%.
I can confirm the Honda prices you quote. I was given the dealer’s copy of a receipt once and saw that there was a 100% markup on the antifreeze I purchased. I’m not happy about that BUT in 207K miles I’ve only had to buy antifreeze three times. Twice for a flush and fill and once for a bad radiator. There is no excuse for their markup but then again I only have to buy it once every decade.
When I go to JiffyLube — which is only in winter when I don’t feel like getting under my car — I make sure I have an extra air filter in the car with me, and when they show me how dirty the air filter is, I smile and ask them to put in this new one I just happen to have. That tends to cut down on their up-sell efforts.
My Mazda dealer often has specials for $ 27. Regular price for oie + filter is $ 32 or so. I really don’t see the point trying to save $ 1 to go to Jiffy something or to do it myself.
when I had my Buick I had coolant, tranny fluid etc. replaced at GM dealer. For whatever reason I didn’t change the oil there and a week later went to the said Jiffy lube (or whatever that place was called) since they advertised a $ 10 off. this equaled $ 27… so it wasn’t cheaper than the Mazda dealer. After they changed my oil the guy showed me the computer screen where they looked up my car data and insisted I need to change tranny, coolant fluid etc. I told them that was done a week before at GM dealer. However, he still tried to tell me I needed to do it since his computer told him. He also said one of the 7 bulbs in the 3rd center-brake-light was broken and I get pulled over and get a ticket if they don’t replace it. (the bulb was the only valid thing to be replaced, but the light was functioning with the 6 remaining bulbs and here in WI cops don’t even seem to pull over people that don’t have lights at all)
Honestly, if I was a pushover I would have been intimidated and walked away with $ 500 less. Thank god I’m a mean German guy who doesn’t take orders :-)
@Sherborn: I used to do the same thing, but my injuries are making it harder and harder for me to get under the car, at least without using a lift. Some crap you just can’t reach, even with the car up on ramps or jack stands. However, after the few times I DID use Jiffy Lube, et al., and the rounded off drain plugs, the over priced air filters and my favorite, the oil filter installed WITHOUT a gasket – never again. And I never have.
Most of the GM dealers in my area have a “Fastlane” oil change service, done in less than 30 mins., and usually about $25 for oil, filter and top off all the fluids and the tires. I haven’t been to a Jiffy Lube in years, but I’m guessing they’re much higher than I remember…
@Herr: $27 is a special? The Pontiac (now Buick) dealer that I work with will do all of the stuff listed above, AND run the car through the on-site automated car wash, for 27 bucks. Everyday, including Saturdays until 1 PM. Gewöhnlich Deutschen sind gut mit Geld, ja?
Sister took mom’s car to one of the fast-lube joints that uses a pit instead of a lift (good grief!). They said the car had 3 years remaining on her 11 year old 5-year antifreeze.
Beware dealer service departments. A friend took her 3/4 ton 4WD GMC truck in for an oil change. It had ~65K miles on it. It got the bumper to bumper inspection. A few weeks later she went back for the tranny filter/tranny oil change and suddenly it needed $1300 worth of work. She had driven it ~500 miles in between and all of it coffee shop runs i.e. light duty.
She called their bluff and there were some mildly embarrassed mechanics standing around. They’d be fully embarrassed I suspect but they’d probably done this often enough that they don’t care anymore…
I’ll stick with driveway oil changes. Gives me a chance to inspect the car myself bumper to bumper and I’m CERTAIN that I have more experience than the grease-monkeys at Jiffylube.
joeaverage wrote, “Beware stealership service departments.”
Fixed it for you! :)
Another wonderful government effort in the automotive world that no one asked for, and isn’t needed in the slightest.
I detect a pattern forming…
1) If it’s broke, and the market has determined it should die, spend taxpayer money to “fix” it!
2) If it ain’t broke, go to step 1.
Most of these new EPA “approved” motor oils are a big step BACK in terms of reducing engine wear. If you use these reformulated oils in older engines (even with the same viscosity) it will cause SEVERE damage. The EPA made the motor oil manufacturers take out zinc and phosphorus out because it reduced life of the catalytic converter (never mind it also reduced the life of the engine). All of a sudden, people’s camshafts were getting ground down. I’d rather replace a catalytic converter a little sooner than drop a new motor in my car.
Many people now put “racing” oil in their cars (since that is outside the EPA’s jurisdiction), or oil made for diesel engines, it has more anti-wear additives. There’s also oil supplements you can buy and drop in the oil to help combat this.
The EPA doesn’t seem to care about the end consumer having an engine wearing out too soon. All I’m asking for is some common sense and a balanced approach.
Older engines with a push rod valve train really do benefit with some type of ZDDP additive or the use of Brad Penn Oil.
This is actually very interesting information, and does not surprise me: just like the recent dishwasher fiasco, where the new “green” stuff no longer properly cleans the dishes.
Me, I use only the stuff VW recommends, i.e., VW 505.01 and VW 502.00. Hopefully the EPA hasn’t gotten to them?
The ZDDP/camshaft wear for ancient engines issue has some reality to it, but has also been greatly overstated.
In modern applications, modern motor oils do a far better job than almost anything available 20 years ago did.
The EPA doesn’t seem to care about the end consumer having an engine wearing out too soon. All I’m asking for is some common sense and a balanced approach.
Modern oils and modern engines outlast the old ones, hands down, no contest. Yes, the lack of zinc does affect flat tappet engines, but lets be real. That is ancient stuff. I’m all for backwards compatability but at some point you have to know when to not let the past hold back the future.
“DEX” Now that’s enough to run for cover. What’s next, “Citation” trans fluid?
The EPA doesn’t seem to care about the end consumer having an engine wearing out too soon. All I’m asking for is some common sense and a balanced approach.
The average enviro-leftist degree holder at the EPA probably finds 4th grade multiplication a challenge – so you can basically forget any sort of rational cost / benefit analysis involving engineering and economics.
That said, most modern oils are superior to what was available – although, as noted, additives may be necessary. I’m more concerned about the prolonged effects of ethanol in older cars and (off topic) how water use regs will turn my quick morning shower into a frustrating 10 minute drizzle. /FoilHat
My point is, the EPA made the formulation changes WITHOUT warning people about the consequences. I happen to have owned one of these older styled engines, and used it as a daily driver. Never did I see an oil bottle warning me. The EPA once again did not do their homework.
Also, common sense tells you that if the newer oil formulations caused older engines to suddenly increase wear to the point it destroyed the engine, it would seem likely that ALL engines (even modern ones) would see more wear on them, even if it’s not as dramatic. ZDDP dramatically reduces engine wear and makes engines last longer, and the EPA has made manufacturers pull it out of their oil, all to protect a significantly less expensive catalytic converter.
I’d guess that to an EPA bureaucrat all cars and trucks older than ~5 years old are a nuisance. Get them off the road and crushed. See “Cash for Clunkers” which while primarily was intended to be a economic kick start in reality crushed alot of perfectly useful vehicles that were in some cases BETTER than what the poor could afford to drive daily. The UK did the same thing. See TopGearUK for an aerial picture.
I guess the EPA never figures in the environmental cost of replacing a vehicle versus TAKING CARE of the old vehicle you’ve already got.
For everyone that is not aware, changes in the oil compounds happen every few years. Its kind of like when the computer companies come out with the latest processing system and everyone changes over and adapts to use it. As a consumer you probably wont notice it.
Well, this explains all the new Castrol ads.
I’m surprised that this new standard didn’t happen earlier. I know that Ford and Honda have been requiring the use of 5-20w in their small engines for nearly a decade.
Memo to GM: You all have to be pretty tone deaf to put the word Dex in front of any of your products.
Another reason not to buy a GM car.
I tell ya, it’s almost like they’re trying to make people stay away from dealerships.
Maybe you missed the part where other manufactures are doing the same thing.
Other US-branded automakers, yes. And like it or not, Government Motors is the lightning rod for them.
This is what federal interference in Darwinian capitalism has wrought.
Is Dexos going to eat camshafts (or worse, main seals) like Dexcool ate the head gaskets on my dad’s truck, the neighbor’s Pontiac, my Uncle’s Northstar Caddy and our mechanic’s Buick fleet?
Thanks GM for another reason to make my generation disown you.
“…Ford and Chrysler”
I guess they’re actually not doing anything despite the article saying they’re doing the same thing as GM – otherwise, why would the commenters act like it’s only GM changing things?
Hey, you know what? I hear that GM kicks puppies, eats dolphins, and killed Jesus.
@Perisoft: I guess if you can’t say anything bad about GM on this board, then you can’t post here.
Many people on this board have some sort of reading comprehension disability.
What gets me is that I can’t tell whether people are pissed at GM for needing to be taken over by the government, or are pissed at the government for taking over GM (thus making them now pissed at GM too, by proxy). Did they hate GM all along and are petulant about its survival – and thus angry at the government for saving it? That seems like a shortsighted position given that GM’s demise would have taken out the rest of the US auto industry too.
I mean, why the obsession with the bailout? Everyone knows why it happened; it’s obvious that it was necessary (even competitors outright said so), and it’s clear that gov’t has no desire to remain in the car business.
-Then- people are angry about the government forcing bad decisions on GM… But the same people revel in GM’s -own- failures. And the same people who excoriate the government AND GM for failing to, say, have a good IPO, are the first to scream bloody murder about GM having an unfair advantage!
It’s all very bizarre. The only real conclusion I can draw is that a certain section of people have always detested the government and GM separately, and now they just get angry at anything in their paths without considering context.
Peri, geo… with respect, get over yourselves. Comprende?
And as for this…
“That seems like a shortsighted position given that GM’s demise would have taken out the rest of the US auto industry too.”
…there’s a wealth of informed thought and opinion out there to support the opposite.
@PeriSoft: In the US today, we have a tortured relationship with our government, one that I really can’t explain to folks who don’t live here and I’m not even convinced I totally understand myself. (and I was born here!) I think you have actually gotten to the truth of the matter in your conclusion of your previous post.
Perhaps we need to have a new fluids designation here–Tea Party Approved Oil–TPAO, (or Teabagger Paranoia Assured Oleic). Never mind that it’s API and ACEA that have set up the standards, apparently. Or that the motor oil companies may change their formulations on their own so long as it meets the standards. It’s all a conspiracy.
I can see the commercial for that…
“Tea Bag Motor Oil” is the only oil refined by true hard core conservatives. We use it to torture small animals and only vehicles that get less than 15 mpg are approved for using our product. Also, our motor oil is the only one to be endorsed by Sarah Palin. As you would expect.. the color of our oil is far lighter than Barack Obama.”
@Finfrock: “…there’s a wealth of informed thought and opinion out there to support the opposite.”
I wasn’t addressing the supplier issue with Perisoft. However, since you brought it up, citations please.
It’s called “Google,” geo. Do the legwork, you may be surprised what you learn! A little knowledge is a wonderful thing — definitely better than regurgitating the Government Motors/Obama administration line.
Personally, I’m not saying the death of GM wouldn’t have been a crisis… I just think it would have been a necessary hardship that would have paid greater dividends in the long run. Starting with the death of the UAW.
Imagine how much stronger remaining automakers would be without having to kowtow to that corrupt union. Instead, we give them car companies.
I’m lucky enough to have two local dealers (Honda/Toyota) who offer $9.95 oil changes every day. I can’t buy it that cheap. They also charge the same rate for other brands. Synthetic is naturally more. I wonder how much they will charge for the new stuff?
Almost Jake
If only people were as concerned about their ATF as they are about their oil…you know, because modern engine failures due to poor lubrication are pretty rare, but A/T failures utilizing manufacturer recommended maintenance schedules aren’t (Chrysler, Honda). Of course, GM/Ford/Chrysler don’t want you changing your own ATF…that’s why there is no drain plug (unlike Toyota or Honda).
Also, GM has always had it’s own oil standards…they just didn’t have the ridiculous “Dex-” prefix to it. As such, some mass-market oils didn’t “meet or exceed” their standard; Mobil1 5W20, believe it or not, did not meet 6094M. Of course the cynic my be inclined to believe that this had less to do w/a quality oil meeting a GM standard and more to do w/Mobil not wanting to pay GM to list the standard on their label. Note: Same thing goes for Ford…though to Ford’s credit, Motorcraft (Conoco-Phillips) 5W20 is widely available and all of CP’s other oils (Kendall GT-1, Union76, Honda factory fill, etc) meet the Ford Standard.
Mostly correct, though starting with the “SM”/GF-4 generation of oils the Ford 5W-20 standards were made part of the API requirements. You no longer need to search out Ford approved 5W-20.
@Sammy: FWIW, as you point out, EVERY manufacturer has their own standard for lubrication. In terms of ATF, Dexron has been around for longer than I can remember. I think the whole Dex-cool disaster may have ruined the Dex prefix, and when I see the name Dexos, I think of Greek olive oil. With a little Dex-cool in it. OTOH, GM recommends Mobil 1 for the Corvette motors and the two GM dealers I patronize use Mobil lubricants exclusively in their shops. I don’t know if that extends to all other GM dealers, but I think the two companies have a working relationship.
If nothing else, it seems they are only using one standard for the Dexos oil, to meet the European standard. What I want to know is if the European ACEA standards will be/have been adopted worldwide. If so, it makes sense to stick to meeting one standard, rather than list (and certify) many standards, even though they may be similar.
Out of curiosity’s sake, I began having the oil in our cars tested. I’ll eventually do this for my motorcycle as well. I’ve long held to synthetic oil, quality filters, and 10K change intervals. What the test results show, at least to me, is fascinating and a good way to either validate, or refute the logic behind my oil change intervals.
If anyone cares, I found the wear metals in my newer cars (less than 20K) to be much higher, therefore warranting more frequent changes (7500 or fewer miles). Evidently, engines are still breaking-in long after I realized.
For our older, well cared for engines, 10K mile oil change intervals appear to be fine.
Perhaps due to the experience through the years with all my old cars, I change the oil on every new car every first 1000 and the nest 3000 miles. After this I return to my 5 thousand miles schedule.
I use Wix or Prurolator 1 filters and Pennnzoil Platinum Full synthetic.
I have never trusted the sales person when told the engine is already broken in at the time of sale.
Oils with Boron Nitride and Molybdenum combination is FAR superior in terms of wear protection than high phosphorous oils of 10 years ago…Seems to me that the Dexos 1 standard is just GF-5 plus higher stay-in-grade ability which requires a lower-oxydizing/better base oil. Dexos 1 does not require synthetic oil only a highly-refined mineral oil.
I just want to say that the white, green, and red Sinclair logo is probably one of the best of all time. It still looks amazing today.
It’d never pass muster now – it’s not in Helvetica.
I’ve always enjoyed it…mostly because my dad has been with Sinclair Oil and the Holding family (also own Little America and Sun Valley) for a long time now.
Oil for engines is quite interesting to me, I’ve noticed on both a 90 Acura and our current 98 Acura that they both prefer Castrol. The 07 Subaru burns a little less with Valvoline. The old 84 Volvo could run on heavyweight, well until it couldn’t run anymore.
Can someone also please tell Toyota that 10,000 mile oil changes are OK! I really hate throwing away good oil every 5,000 miles just to preserve my warranty…
Toyota’s infamous engine sludge problems of several years ago made them go with a much more conservative recommendation.
Likewise Saab with the pre-2004 9-5. I got an ’05, but I’m still going to put synthetic in it every 5k… It’ll cost me, what, another 100 bucks a year if I drive a lot and have someone else do it?
There’s a local oil change place around here called Bruce’s Pit Stop. For a long time their sign said, “Take the iffy out of Jiffy!” … then it suddenly changed to “Take the iffy out!”. I decided to go there just because their sign was ballsy; it turns out that they did, as I suspected, get a nastygram from Jiffy Lube.
The sign also said you’d get ten bucks off if you said, “Take the iffy out”, which I duly did. I asked the gruff counter dude (who I think owned the place) if he’d really charge more if people didn’t mention the thing that was right on the sign, and he said, “Of course! It says on the sign! If you can’t bother to say it, no discount!”
He’s a pretty cool guy.
They did a pretty good job (to the extent that you can screw up an oil change). But they spotted a coolant leak, didn’t tell me to buy anything more from them, and chatted about cars. And it was done 10 minutes from the moment I drove the car into their lot.
It was sixty bucks, but as someone who owns a small business myself, I figure it’s worth it to keep some color in the business.
Toyota is finally going to a 10,000 mile OCI with 0W-20 full syn for some 2010 models. Prior to the sludge issue, it was 7,500, consistant with GM’s old OCI. We’ve got well over 200,000 sludge-free miles on the 1999 Camry going by the old schedule and name brand “conventional” oil.
Here in Beaumont, TX. Exxon/Mobil packages alot of different brands under lots of labels. ie mr goodwrench, cat, honda,harley, motorcraft and about 20 others. My GMC oil monitor usually go off about 11000 miles and the oil really doesn’t look dark or dirty but my local carwash charges $26 for a change. Also does a good wash as part of the deal. I never buy their extras.
I am personally being torn between doing my own oil changes and paying someone else to do it. If you insist on using any kind of premium oil (synthetic, or anything else designed to last 5000 miles or longer) it totally makes sense to start doing it yourself. Even cheap oil change places will charge you and arm and a leg for putting in a quality oil instead of crap that’s designed to last exactly 3000 miles and cost you $20 (the CarX standard Mobil 1 oil is so crappy, you can’t buy anything as bad in stores).
On the other hand, some of the cheap oil change places do do a through check of your car’s suspension and brakes and other fluids. Cheap oil change places like Midas have spotted serious problems in my car (like worn ball joints) that I would never spot myself.
I used to do all of my own oil changes, with four cars in the driveway I was doing them frequently. But recently, I’ve been taking my stuff to the local Pontiac (now Buick) dealer and let them deal with instead. They have the facilities to properly dispose of the oil and other materials, and my back doesn’t mind not having to slide under the cars…
Even with four cars, I’m only paying about $40-50 per year more on oil changes, and not having to deal with the clean up is worth it to me. When my youngest starts driver training this winter, I will show her as part of how to do routine maintenance items, but otherwise I will still have it done at the dealer.
I bring my own oil and filter to my mechanic and he does the change for me for a tenner.
My local Honda dealer changes the oil once a year for nothing, so I don’care what they put in it. The AMG gets Mobil 1 every 10,000 miles, and never needs oil between changes. Maybe motor oil is just motor oil. Sorry Sigmund.
On a recent trip to the Tampa area I was down a quart. The only oils at the gas station I was at were rated SA and SB i.e. non-detergent. Makes me wonder what kind of cheap crap the quick change places use.
Usually, if there is a brand sign on the place, the oil in the tanks is genuine. Shell (owner of Pennzoil/Quaker State) has a program to make sure shops with a Pennzoil sign actually have Pennzoil in the bulk tanks. They do take legal action if that is not the case.