Steve writes:
I’ve been stuck trying to find the right car for several months. This car would replace a 2007 Subaru B9 Tribeca Limited, that I’m driving because my wife just didn’t like the ergonomics and heavy steering input. Legroom on the passenger side of the Tribeca is awful for long drives. This car would supplement my wife’s 07 Lexus RX350.
Criteria: 4 door, used, under $25k, automatic, reliable, comfortable for long family (of 3) drives, better mileage than the RX350 and decent handling. FWD or AWD are ok, but I can’t manage RWD in the New England winter with my very steep driveway (otherwise I’d prefer RWD). My commute is a mere 3 miles of 40 MPH suburban roads, but I want to use this car instead of the RX350 on longer drives from Boston to Vermont etc. So it needs to be almost as comfortable as the RX350. Here’s the real nice to have: a little more fun for me. That means reasonable handling and lack of body lean in turns…not a Camry. But roads in my area are pothole city, so a compromise is needed. Here’s what I looked at:
* 07-08 or 09 Acura TSX. Nice size, interior, great mileage, handling/ride compromise is good. Light on power. Honda reliable.
* 07-08 TL. Same qualities as TSX, better power, worse mileage. Ride is a little better in TSX, more room in TL.
* 08-09 Honda Accord EX-L v6. Never driven one, owned two back in the 80’s and they were great cars. Looks are ok, interior similar to Acuras, nice engine and mileage, roomy. Handling? Maybe too big. I find the pre-2008 generation Accords ugly.
* 07 328xi. Power, mileage, handling, size all about right. Ride-handling compromise a little too firm. Cupholders and interior storage terrible (we use on long drives). Run-flats are all but a deal breaker.
* 07-08 Lexus IS250AWD. Good looking, good MPG. Back seat is tiny, headroom is poor and power similar to TSX. Hard to pick over a TSX considering it costs more.
* A4 is too small, too low, too firm. G35x has horrible mileage. MB c-class pre 2008 is small and I question reliability, the 2008 is over budget. I did look at a 2006 MB E350 4Matic and loved it, but the MPG is pretty bad, as bad as the Tribeca it seems. lexus ES350 is just too Camry like. In theory I could go for a nice older, higher mileage car with my short commute, but I’m concerned about German cars out of warranty.
Steve Answers:
So in essence you want Lexus reliability, BMW fun, Volvo comfort, Acura TSX sportiness, Subaru’s all-wheel drive, and the ride of a W124 Mercedes. Did we forget to mention the rear seat room of a long-wheelbase Jaguar? If you weren’t so stingy with maintenance costs I would probably push you in that direction. But somehow I don’t see you throwing a few extra thousand on Brembo brakes and an upgraded audio system. To tell you the truth I wouldn’t do it either.
I do like certain German cars…. ‘old’ German cars. None of the new stuff interests me since I can get the near-new for less than the cost of a Camry. An Audi A6 Avant with a long warranty may be a consideration as would an A4 Avant. The seats and interiors on today’s Audi’s are exceptional and you can always get a warranty to handle the inferior German workmanship.
You can also get a car that is far off the beaten path. One that has been pushed into obscurity due to a long model run from the prior generation and a complete lack of marketing push from their prior owners . If I lived in your neck of the woods I would consider a 2008 Volvo S80. The T6 and V8 versions come standard with all-wheel-drive, and both can likely be had for around the $25k range with a great warranty to boot. Those who knock them have never driven one. I have and I think you would appreciate it far more than the typical alphabet soup of luxury cars. Drive one.
Sajeev answers:
I admit it: today I’m gonna be a complete shill for an automaker. And while that makes me feel dirty, while the conflict tears me apart inside, this ride must be on your short list.
Why all the fuss of trying to fit a depreciated German/Japanese luxury car into your (lifetime) budget when you clearly need a more mundane sedan? As reviews (mine is forthcoming) around the country show, a 2011 Hyundai Sonata fits the bill. Compared to a TSX, the Hyundai’s direct injected mill and six speed auto is more than adequate. It has all the luxury car toys available, with an interior that comes disturbingly close to the one in your Lexus. Yes, really. Get the SE model for reasonable, Acura-like road feel and 35MPG is yours for the taking. $25k gets you a nicely loaded model with great financing (should you choose to invest your money in higher yield places than a depreciating asset) and a stupid awesome warranty.
But it’s still a Hyundai, serviced by some of the worst dealers out there. I get it. If you can clear that hurdle, my recommendation holds water.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder.
Altima (current generation, not the prior one)
Good ride, reasonably sporty, better NVH than the Accord, better seats than the Camry, better fuel economy than both. Coincidentally, it’s also atop Consumer Reports’ ratings list and is reasonably reliable. Used, they’re a bit cheaper than the Camry or Accord
Second choice: Fusion or MKZephyr. The Fusion’s moderately more fun if you get the right trim, much cheaper, very reliable. The ergonomics aren’t quite there (the Lincoln’s better) and some trim is cheapish, but in both you can get AWD.
Let me add another option: if you’re just using this for commuting, and your commute is that short, why not a Fusion or Altima Hybrid?
I’m interested in hearing the recommendations, as I am in a similar situation. The differences for me are:
***I’m in FL, so RWD is fine
***I need to transport 3 kids now and then (to school, to little league, etc), so backseat space/width is important
***I’ll go up to $35k, but prefer $30k.
I have been looking at the Hyundai Genesis, new Jeep Grand Cherokee, and am also considering a Volvo s80 T6 as Steve mentioned. I’ll also consider the CTS-wagon, but not sure it is wide enough.
If it’s OK, throw out a few considerations for me too.
Used:
Pontiac G8.
Infiniti M
Volvo S80
New:
Wait to check out the ’11 Charger
Maxima
Mazda6
Finding a good local specialist garage (rather than a dealer) and going for an E-Class wagon.
Start with MB-USA forum page. Tons of wisdom there.
I definitely like the look and usefulness of the Mercedes wagon. But I am concerned with the maintenance and long term costs.
As for the G8, I love the looks, the performance will be outstanding, and the size is right. The problem there is that I don’t think the wife will be too excited with it.
The Maxima looks great, but I don’t think the way the backseat is configured will easily handle 3 small kids – 2 still needing boosters.
Keep the recommendations coming – thanks again.
>>>>But I am concerned with the maintenance and long term costs.
That is why I’d started with finding a local indie (independent) shop first. This will slash your man-hour (labor) costs substantially. Parts are available online – in abundance – at much, much lower prices than those at the dealer.
As the car itself the previous the W211 (2002-09) body seems to hold up pretty well, much better than the previous horror – the W210 (95-2002).
He said it needs to have a comfortable ride, which rules out the Sonata SE. The regular Sonata is better, but still not as good as a Camry/Lexus. I agree with Nissan Altima, it’s a good compromise between pretty much everything. Accord would also be a good choice.
Oh, and, as decent as the interior in the new Sonata is, I think labeling it as “disturbingly close” to a Lexus is a stretch. My rental GLS with 8 miles on the odometer had a improperly installed glove box door that would hardly open and shut. The models I’ve test driven at the dealership were only somewhat better. A luxury car it is not.
Yes, the Sonata SE’s suspension tuning needs a re-do. The Limited handles nearly as well and rides much better. But it would bust the budget.
My parents also had a GLS as a rental recently. The interior seemed very nice for the price, though certainly short of a Lexus. I didn’t test the glove box door.
A Fusion is horribly unrefined in comparison.
Michael Karesh said:
“Yes, the Sonata SE’s suspension tuning needs a re-do. The Limited handles nearly as well and rides much better. But it would bust the budget.
My parents also had a GLS as a rental recently. The interior seemed very nice for the price, though certainly short of a Lexus. I didn’t test the glove box door.
A Fusion is horribly unrefined in comparison.”
Absolutely! A Ford Fusion is about as refined as a 1990 Pontiac Grand Am. I DO NOT GET the love of Ford. Mediocre cars at best, uninspired styling, cheap interiors and ho-hum everything else.
“Yes, the Sonata SE’s suspension tuning needs a re-do. The Limited handles nearly as well and rides much better. But it would bust the budget.”
The budget will be fine if you skip the nav package; a friend got a Sonata Limited without nav for just under $24K + TTL. There are even Limiteds with nav out there for just a few hundred bucks over the $25K budget.
“I DO NOT GET the love of Ford. Mediocre cars at best, uninspired styling, cheap interiors and ho-hum everything else.”
+1. I don’t get it either. The Fusion gets heaps of praise as if Ford birthed it all by themselves. All Ford did with the Fusion was to take a Mazda 6 and not screw it up as badly as people thought they would.
A Ford Fusion is about as refined as a 1990 Pontiac Grand Am.
Anyone simpleminded enough to make such an absurd statement should be doomed to drive a 1990 Grand Am for the rest of his days. Preferably one with the Iron Duke.
(That you, Silvy? Yet another log-in? Really now…)
What about a prior generation 325xi? No run flats, classy looks and lower price so more money to spend at your mechanic’s shop!
With the previous 3-er (E46) I would go straight for 330xi with Sport interior – it has vastly better seats.
I love the E46, but it fails the rear-legroom test miserably.
At $25k I wouldn’t mess around with a used car. Right now you can often drive a better bargain on selected new vehicles than you can on lightly used ones. I would go test drive the Sonata, Accord, Altima, Fusion and Malibu and then see which one I liked best. All can be bought decently equipped at $25k or less.
“Criteria: 4 door, used, under $25k, automatic, reliable….* 08-09 Honda Accord EX-L v6”
On what planet is a 08 or 09 Accord a good deal?
“Right now you can often drive a better bargain on selected new vehicles than you can on lightly used ones. ” x2
Umm, this one? What planet are you on? Aside from the anonymous styling, it fits his criteria perfectly.
Partsunknown,
Where can you get a good price on a slightly used Accord? From what I’ve been able to see at 2 years old they’ve barely depreciated at all compared to the typical deal you can get on a new one.
Bah.
Channel your inner Steven Lang and keep the flying vag.
I’ve never owned one, but I don’t see the problem with a Tribeca. I like them (and vaginas) and question whether it’s so hard to steer and has so little leg room.
Maybe you’re just looking for an excuse to get something new/different – not that there’s anything wrong with that if you can afford it.
One vote for the 2007-08 Ford Taurus. Or its Mercury twin. Everything I have read indicates that it hits all of your points. It is not particularly good looking, but you can save some money, particularly on the Mercury. You can save even more on maintenance and repairs.
Forget about anything German and used. You pay too much for the Lexus snob appeal. You can buy the Acura TL and hope that the transmission issues are finally resolved. The TSX will get old fast on those long trips. Drive the last generation Taurus (not the 05-06 Ford 500 twin, as it is underpowered and has the CVT transmission).
I would agree with jpcavanaugh on the Taurus as they are nice vechicles and have the AWD option. A new or newer Fusion would be a worth a look in my opinion.
Hmm, the 3 mile commute has me thinking “Schwinn”. It’s not like the RX350 is, like, lousy…
Something tells me this wife is not going to go for a Hyundai OR any domestic brand no matter HOW competitive they are……….
You’re right about that one. Maybe a Ford with some convincing.
I just test drove a new 2011 Sonata yesterday – it is really very very nice. Wait a week or two for the 2.0 turbo, and you will not be disappointed. It has a shockingly nice interior, looks great, and drives better than any of the other family sedans out there mentioned above. I was extremely skeptical going in, but one single test drive convinced me.
I have owned nothing but German cars for 15+years straight – BMW, Audi, VW (No MB) and my current 2006 A4 Avant is usually wonderful but more than occasionally extremely frustrating – I have had in the dealer 5 times in the last 18 months for the exact same electrical / lighting issue, which has yet to be fixed, 2 new fuel pumps required in the same period, not to mention a new 3500 dollar Navi / Stereo unit AND having to drop the engine for some minor fuel delivery issue – If it were not for the CPO warranty (which has saved me over 9K in repair costs in one and a half years), I would have sold it about 3 months after I got it and moved on. I’m going Korean soon (or if a deal pops up on a used Accord I may go that way…), and I will not miss a thing.
VW/Audi products can rapidly turn into money sucking vampires once out of warranty.
Who cares about mpg on a 3 mile drive? Take the RX350 on long family road trips, ride your bike to work, and get something interesting to drive the rest of the time. If you want fun and AWD, look at a WRX or A4 (which are roomier than a 3-series…don’t know why the 3 was OK but the A4 was too smale). Or, get a 335xi.
I wouldn’t rule out RWD, either. Going up a steep hill, rwd is actually better since the weight transfers to the back. Put some winter tires on it and you’ll be safer than in a FWD. My 335i has four snow tires and I did a 300 mile road trip last winter ENTIRELY in the snow. It was much better planted than my Jeep Cheorkee with all-seasons- particularly if you have to put it in 2WD. I went about 60 on these snowy roads, which felt about like 90-100 on dry roads safety-wise, which is nothing for a 335i.
If you’d consider RWD, I recommend picking up a used Infiniti M-series. It meets all the rest of your criteria pretty well.
2005 – 2006 A8L
Sure, if an 06 A4 only needed 9k worth of work in 18 months – how bad could the A8 be?
twotone beat me to the punch! If I had $25k burning a hole in my pocket for a new ride, I would be very temped by an ’05-’06 A8. Since this guy already has a new “reliable” car, he might as well get something fun or extra nice as a treat. I also love the XJ Jags, make mine a light metallic blue with cream leather.
Apparently there’s a lot of hate on here for German cars. I’d rather buy a collection of older Benz for $25k than a Sonata. I like Steve’s advice on the S80, but it’s typical that Sajeev would recommend something lame!
brunosaccobenz: My German car comment is not hate, but the experience of friends. Anything German from the 90s on up has all the repair issues of a comparable Chrysler but at 3 times the cost. I find Audi A6s and A8s really attractive, but I will enjoy them at a distance, thank you.
Did anyone mention a used car from the 90s?? This guy is spending $25k, that puts you into a 2006-2009 used german car. The constant comments about unreliable Euro cars get old, especially when they are almost always based on one someone you knew owned 15 yrs ago.
CR-V, RAV4: A Frappuccino. Enya on the CD. Cruise control @ 70mph. Mind wondering. Suburbia flowing. Wondering what will be the next thing you won’t believe it’s happening (to you).
Seems like you can get a decently equipped, *new*, Mazda6 for $25k.
VW GTI. Ok technically it’s 5 doors. Or get a TSX and give it more power. A Comptech supercharger should fit the bill.
Well, I did have a Lexus IS 250 (rwd) and i agree with your assessment. Wanting to get out of the car-payment merry-go-round for a while, I did my research and bought an 06 Benz E350 a year and a half ago for $20K with 44k miles. Yes, I know. It has been the best car I have ever owned. Absolutely zero problems in 16k miles. With RWD it gets amazing gas mileage. 27-29mpg with cruise set to 75 mph. You can get a CPO from a dealer with a pretty good extended warranty.
Sajeev…
Didn’t you see performance was kind of a quality he was asking for?
Of all the praise the Hyundai gets, performance wasn’t part of it…unless the “as far as 4 cylinders go..” gets added.
From what I hear, the thing has more sway than a Camry, which real sway.
For my choice, it’s a used Mazda6 S 2009 and up.
Here are two examples at a very nice price!
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=n&car_id=284198770&dealer_id=57510788&car_year=2009&rdm=1286494644780&lastStartYear=1981&model=MAZDA6&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=2009&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=6 Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&only_price=1&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=MAZDA&keywords_display=&color=&scarid=282395334&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=mileageASC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=mileageASC&address=60175&advanced=y&only_photo=1&end_year=2011&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=295&standard=false
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=285807047&dealer_id=1313247&car_year=2010&rdm=1286494644780&lastStartYear=1981&model=MAZDA6&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=2009&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=6 Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&only_price=1&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=MAZDA&keywords_display=&color=&scarid=282395334&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=mileageASC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=mileageASC&address=60175&advanced=y&only_photo=1&end_year=2011&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=931&standard=false
“Didn’t you see performance was kind of a quality he was asking for?”
Anything which will turn sub 10 second 0-60 times is more than enough performance for street driving, and it is hard to find a modern mid-sized car which doesn’t do much better than that.
The Mazda 6 S gets relatively poor fuel economy, but otherwise does seem like a good fit.
You’re considering a BMW, yet the Audi’s ride is too firm?
Are we living in bizarro world today?
Nissan Altima 4 cylinder with the leather interior should fill the bill nicely. The base seats are not too comfortable on my long commute. Mazda 6 is also a contender. If you are not married to import nameplates, the MKZ is also a very good choice, although if my folks is any indication, the interior is a bit cheap, but certainly acceptable. I have extensive seat time in all of these, and I would say the Altima is the best overall. All should return excellent reliability as well.
The newer Audi A4s are larger. If a TSX is OK, the A4 is noticeably larger.
There are FWD A4s that can be had a lot cheaper than the Quattro’s; and they also get better gas mileage.
A FWD model has 23/30 MPG versus 21/27 for the Quattro models.
A4’s are not too hard riding without the sports package (which a FWD model won’t have).
There are very few true mid-size cars today. They go straight from small to large, like Civic/Corolla to Accord/Camry which are now rated as large cars. Nothing in-between. I still see them in Asia and Europe, not in the states. Check out the Toyota Mark X (RWD). It was until recently called the Corona (remember them here from the 80s.)
The Altima meets your requirements, but take it on a long test drive. The CVT isn’t for everyone. It so annoyed me that I crossed it off my shopping list.
I, too, did not like the CVT either. But i quickly got used to it. In fact it began to make sense. I wanted to hate it, but I couldn’t. The early grab for top “gear” is a bit annoying though.
I would rather row my own gears, but if I had to have an auto it would be Nissan’s Xtronic CVT. The other CVTs feel ‘unnatural’ how they make the engine drone by holding rpm.
The V6-powered Fusions have a manual shift gate with – forwards and + backwards. I got used to that way from playing Gran Turismo 4. I wonder why most other companies have + forwards and – backwards. Or worse, making paddles on both sides handle upshift and downshift.
The Fusion does have crappy ergonomics for the HVAC controls, especially the AC and recirculate buttons. They’re impossible to push without taking my eyes off the road for a moment.
I don’t have much personal experience with Subarus, but the last-gen Legacy 3.0 or an auto-equipped GT might be worth a look.
What kind of giant is your wife if she’s having passenger leg room problems on the passenger side of a Subaru Tribeca? I’ve spent some time on that side of one of those and it’s way roomier than my Impreza or Legacy. Sheesh.
This is my request. Interesting responses all.
On legroom, it’s not just her, it’s me and anyone over 5’5″. Legroom is terrible. Maybe they fixed it in ’08.
Sugarbrie is right, finding a true mid-sized car is tough, I didn’t want a barge like new era Camry or Accord (the Mazda 6 or Taurus is even bigger). I have a good friend with a new Altima, which replaced his prior Altima. Decent car, but dull I would have preferred the Subaru I already had. GTI was intriguing, but I’m over 40 and work in the corporate world, I can’t drive a GTI. Really like the 09 A4, but they were all at least 30k. C300 was unimpressive, though I love the looks. Drove an S80 too, and they depreciate fast, so prices were good. But just before the Subaru, I spent 9 years and 110k miles in an S60. I needed a change from Volvo.
In any event, I looked at or drove almost every car mentioned, and ended up with a CPO 328xi, run-flats and all. Got three full years of warranty. It was the right car from the beginning, and I let the tires scare me away. By the way, it’s not a “spare” car, I drive it every day.
4-mile commute sounds to me like a slightly postponed death for an engine.
I would get two cars – one $1000-1500 beater (any Buick with 3.3 or 3.8, any low-spec 3.8 GM and such) with good winter tires on it. Studded, if allowable by law. And run the shit out of it.
The second one – for proper driving. That would be
2005-09 3.0 Subaru Outback Bean or VDC (with all bells and whistles) or…
SAAB 9-3 2.8 Arc/Aero AWD, actually, which in its late years has become very decent motor.
This is a joke. This is a spare car for his Lexus, at “only” $25k. From this guys list of wants, he is looking for a car that no one makes. He isnt happy with the mileage of the RX, but he wants something as large, or larger since his wife needs more room than the Tribeca. It also has to ride as good, get better gas mileage, have good power. But it should be sporty, “fun for him”, yet the 328 is a bit too harsh? If thats too harsh, how is a Camry too soft? And the mileage isnt good enough on your fake-SUV crossover Lexus, so you need to drop $25k for better mileage?? How many trips do you take? Heres an idea… put $25k in your kids college fund and pay the extra $30 for gas when you take a trip. Or rent a minivan.
You are a psuedo-enthusiast…. exactly the reason all the really fun cars are being replaced by appliances on wheels. You need help. Come down to Florida, and give me the $25k. I will put you in a 92 Miata… with no AC. I will teach you how to have fun in a car. You dont worry about the ride quality, you just drive around the potholes. Your pennance is to drive it for 1 year, top down all the time. Yes, in New England… it will build character and you wont waste our time with this type of stupid dream wish list of a car that your wife wants you to find because shes bored.
Geez, that is a bit harsh no? Sum truth to it though. I feel society and the industry suggest one finds the perfect car at the perfect price, or one is a loser/poseur/lame/flawed etc etc. Its difficult not to get caught up in that. I know I do. It sucks to be so afraid and indecisive, but its not anyone’s fault. Things in the world are just really mixed up and its challenging to better respond. Personally I understand how crazy making a choice can be, this is why I work on my issues.
Any car is something to be grateful for, and its real progress to enjoy what one has no matter how/what that turns out to be, imo. Their is no perfection, the goal is progress. A Camry is progress, a Bimmer is more sporty progress, yet probably less realiable and expensive. I feel the above poster was trying to say is “a positive attitude is what you really need/want”.
It’s harsh and reflects of someone who didn’t really read what was written. Need something smaller than the Tribeca, since we have the RX. Has nothing to do with my wife’s car other than avoiding duplication with two fake-SUV crossovers.
DearS is about right. It’s a balance of trade-offs. Most people know nothing and happily make a purchase and live with it. Information is the curse of car shopping. You quickly find that the “safest” purchase may be a less enjoyable vehicle and the more enjoyable vehicle may soon be filled with regrets. So you seek even more information…for example how many issues will come up with a 328? How bad are those run-flats really? Is the Handling in the ES350 as bad as advertised? Is there some car I’m just missing? Hence the post.
560 SEL.
Mint-vacuum-bag condition 10-12K. Plenty of room for 4 + luggage, reliable as dirt, 20+ MPG highway, parts are as cheap or cheaper than most GM products, if you have an IQ over 120 you can diagnose and fix it with simple tools.
Any part you ever need is available in the US. Common stuff new at any auto parts chain, the used is easily overnighted from dozens of sources.
God love the W126…
Both the Sonata, Kia Optima and used Volvo S80 would fit the bill in my opinion…
Screw the handling and go for a CPO 2009 Avalon fully loaded with 25K miles. It will run forever, has all the toys and is super comfortable.
The 2011 Sonata fits the bill perfectly.
That or a used Nissan Altima (current generation).
You own a Lexus and Hondacuras are at the top of your list. Reliability and comfort are obviously more important to you than driving dynamics. Please eliminate any German or American vehicles from your consideration. Right now. It’ll make your decision easier and you won’t have to deal with un-Lexus-like repair or maintenance.
Buying a car is like to finding the right wife. Serious business. Test drive her under every possible condition/situation you may face in marriage/ownership. I like long engagements/test drives. Was your wife even there for the test drive? Sounds like she met you after.
My dad complained that his new 4 cylinder ’02 Tacoma lacked the power need to go up the pass. Told him he should’ve test drove it up the pass instead of just around the block. Traded it in on a V6 GMC Sierra. Same thing, not enough power and only test drove it around the block. He now has a Tundra V6 that makes it up the pass just fine. He did test drive that one up the pass. The salesman wasn’t to happy about it, but hey…
Got a buddy that invited me to Las Vegas ’cause he and his girlfriend of 6 months were getting married. Said it was not a good idea, but hey, Vegas was. Two years later, guess who’s headed for divorce?