Steve writes:
I’m no lover of cars, but since I sold my motorcycle, going bicycle only is proving problematic. Being a one-car family has worked better in theory than in practice. I spend a lot of time mountain biking and trail running. So I need something that can handle muddy, sweaty people and haul dogs and bicycles and the occasional road trip to races. The dog is a collie and my wife and can get by fine with a hitch rack. I don’t the need the car for commuting to work – I ride a bicycle to work every day rain or shine, 12 months a year. Also, I have fundamental distrust of automatic transmissions.
Background:
I have hated the two Subaru’s I’ve owned. Found both of them to fall apart and be quite expensive after 70,000 miles which is saying something from someone who thoroughly enjoyed owning an 1988 Alfa Spider and a 1994 Range Rover Country. Both of which I found to be near perfect cars: The Alfa had a great manual and it felt like you were going 100 when you going 50. The harder I drove it, the better it ran. The Range Rover gave me 150,000 miles of joy (with the last 30,000 miles being frustrating and expensive). It was perfect for 4-wheeling, surf trips with camping on the beach. When the weather was nasty (big rain or big snow) the car got me headed to the beach or to the mountains when I otherwise would have had to stay home. The interior was perfect for returning from backpacking trips or driving back from the beach (easy to clean and didn’t retain smell). I always swore that I would never buy a car with an automatic transmission, but the Range Rover proved compelling. I would look for another one but pulling up in one of those and everyone thinks you are douche bag and the new ones have too many electronics that can go wrong.
I think $15,000 for a used car sounds reasonable and was thinking/dreaming about a 2007 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon (probably hard to get at that price range unless from an auction and Chrysler reliability does give me pause). I would try an old Series III Land Rover but want something more reliable. I feel claustrophobic in Tacoma’s and large pick-ups seem like overkill. What do you recommend?
Steve (Lang) Answers:
My advice will probably be contrary to what you have heard from other folks. I would not give so much as a glance towards fuel economy. You apparently only drive a certain number of miles (congrats on the two wheel conversion) and the vehicle du jour should reflect your outdoors hobbies and your free time. So I am going to give you a three tier answer.
For a beater that can do everything you want and ‘stuff it all’ I like the off-brands. Older Montero’s, Trooper’s, and Land Rovers may be among your favorites since you apparently like the Land Rovers quite a bit. There is something to say about sitting high with a nice open greenhouse and all of these have depreciation levels that rival Mount Everest. Although large greenhouses are not a virtue here in Georgia, a lot of folks in the Northern country love the spaciousness of these vehicles.
My second choice will surprise you even more. I regularly see Expeditions and Suburbans with well over 200k and the powertrains are absolutely bulletproof. I prefer the Suburbans (and shorter wheelbase Tahoes) because they tend to have nice interiors, the powertrains can be worked on and modified easily, and I just happen to think that domestic full-sized SUV’s are the best overall. You can stuff everything you want in one of these vehicles, mud included, and the drive will be very compliant and comfortable. If you plan on doing a lot of hauling in the future beyond bikes and boards, I would go that route.
Finally you have the ‘compact’ route. Sajeev (is about to) mention the Ford Escape and I particularly like the older ones with the 4-cylinder and 5-speed. My brother-in-law bought a four year old version for about $6k to $7k back in the Katrina days and found a full leather interior on Craigslist for only a couple hundred bucks. 90,000 miles later, he has yet to regret his decision. The RAV4 has an unjustified price premium in my book, and the CR-V drives a lot like a minivan.
Speaking of which, you could just opt for a Toyota Sienna AWD and get better comfort, space, fuel economy, and even automatic doors. My neighbor down the street uses a Town & Country for his canoe, bikes, and fishing gear… and I’m willing to bet he’s just as testosterone ridden as he was five years ago. If you aren’t doing any serious off-roading that would actually be my top choice. The value quotient for a good used one these days even trumps an SUV since most folks have become used to $3 gas and prefer masculine lines over useful functional designs like minivans.
Good luck!
Sajeev Answers:
Sorry about your “fundamental distrust of automatic transmissions” since that almost necessitates you moving to another continent. Not that I don’t empathize with your situation, but unless you like the warranty denying, hit or miss (to put it mildly) durability of Subaru products or upkeep-intensive rides from Europe, it’s time to change your tune. Just last week I helped someone in your situation, so here goes.
She is a spec-Miata and LeMons racer. Has a hunting dog (named Apex, dontchaknow) large enough to need a 3×2’ kennel and camping equipment to go with. She wanted an SUV to haul all that goodness with a stick and decent driving dynamics too, but heard horror stories about Subies. I mentioned the Ford Escape along with other CUVs, and the 4cyl, manual cog Escape was my front runner. So her mission was clear: test drive small CUV’s from Honda, Nissan, Ford etc. and see what worked with her needs, kennel in hand at every showroom visit.
Never mind that the Escape is one of the only CUVs with a stick; the square cargo hole and perfectly flat load floor (seats folded) was doggie-approved. The shift-yourself Honda Element drove like a bus, so that was out. One drive in an Escape proved it, and while she purchased a V6 model for the occasional tow, the proof is in the pooch: Apex sleeps like a baby in the Escape’s tomb like cabin, appreciating car-ish like ride more than his owner. That’s not gonna happen in any fast-roof (i.e. kennel tilting) crossover, and definitely not in the NVH-nightmare known as the Jeep Wrangler. Ask yourself, do you want to take a road trip with a restless doggie?
Plus, there’s an optional storage area for dirty boots under the rear carpet. Pooch and owner are happy: I’m patting myself on the back. So there it is, your only choice for vehicular perfection. Well, actually three, if you consider the Mazda and Mercury derivatives.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder.
I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you haven’t been in the newer, mid-size Tacoma. The compact Taco was indeed claustrophobic, but I’m having trouble believing you would feel that way about the current gen. I bring it up because the first thing I thought when reading your post was “pickup”. Pickups are poor daily drivers, but rule as extra vehicles. The current gen Taco has been out awhile, and can be had in a manual. It’s also reasonably bombproof, and is great off road.
Something I was thinking about a year ago as a third vehicle is an older, 80’s pickup. Great ones can be had for a song; you can find one you like, take it to a mechanic, and have them fix or check every single thing and still be under $5K. The great thing is you don’t have to give a crap about it.
Finally: I had a ’72 F250 that I got for under $2K, and it was one of the best vehicles I ever owned. All the switchgear and the dash are metal. You can, again, have a mechanic basically give everything a complete going-over for under $2K. And you end up with a bitchin’ vehicle with a mound of torque (mine had the 360 ci big block) and a good galumphy sound. If you’re not driving it that often, gas mileage doesn’t matter. And, FWIW, women liked that truck more than anything I have owned before or since – and this is in the Oakland, CA, not exactly truck country.
Shame about your luck with Subaru, it is definitely hit or miss (mine has been a hit). I had bought the Outback for similiar reasons as your own, but also as the main family vehicle (we live in Idaho).
My second choice was an 04-06 Honda CRV EX…because you could get it with a manual (like I did with the Outback). They were definitely more utilitarian than the newer CRVs, with the swing rear door and slab sides for great visibility.
CRVs tend to hold their value quite well in the northwest, which was part of my reason for getting the OB in the end.
I second what imag said, my first thought was an extra-cab Tacoma. Good looking, right sized, perfect for a non-daily driver. Should fit right in with the mountain biking, hiking, kayaking surfing scenes. Plus, if you have a drive-on beach nearby, deflate the tires and away you go. Try that in a Sienna. All the benefits of a Wrangler, minus the open roof, but with much better comfort, space and reliability.
I also can’t believe they didn’t bring up the simple answer. Get exactly what you want, but in a different generation.
For under $15K, you can buy a CJ or an FJ40 that some off-roader has gone nuts on. They will have Danas and shocks and fat new tires and be in cherry condition. You can even get a really nice V8 swap. For that money you can buy one that’s seriously nice (although FJs can get even more expensive), and fits whatever your style is.
There really aren’t many vehicles that are as enjoyable a Jeep or an FJ, for just tooling around. If you find one that has seen someone else put in the money, my guess is that they will be at least as reliable as any modern car, and will be way more fun for what you have in mind.
Quick search of craigslist:
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/2053785505.html
I mean, look at that. It’s at *least* as cool as Rubicon. And there are a ton more like them out there, in all different colors and degrees of off-roadiness. All you have to do is hang on craigslist a week or two, be prepared to drive out to the boons, and you can find one that has been someone’s baby, and is in great shape to take home.
If you can get over the auto trans thing, go with the Burban or Tahoe (or equivalent GMC version.) The drive trains are great, get a 4×4 with as few options as you can find. My father has a late 90s version with the 350 and 4×4. He loves it to put it mildly. Only drives it when he has a large number of people to haul a long distance. My uncle (the pig farmer) only buys old Suburbans to haul stuff around the farm. Drives farther in gawd awful conditions than a man on all season tires has a right too.
If size maters (meaning you want to go smaller) get the Escape or even one of the few “base” model Mariners that escaped from the factory. I have yet to find an unhappy owner of these vehicles and our local Ford dealer did a good job selling them.
I love my 2006 Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon. It’s got plenty of room for camping gear once the rear seat is folded or removed and it looks much better than the 07 and up JKs. It is 100% more livable than a short wheelbase Wrangler. Aftermarket bike carriers abound for the roof, spare tire, or hitch. Manual transmission versions are plentiful. I don’t have a dog, but I’ve hauled dogs in my Jeep and they do quite well. I don’t think the NVH was much of an issue for them.
I second the GM full-size SUV. Great vehicles, although the four wheel drive on my two door Tahoe went out all four winters I had it in Wyoming. The causes were variable, but there was a repeat. Once the transfer case at itself and I had to have it rebuilt. My experience was not typical of most people with these trucks.
Not to be the grammar police, but this article suffers from an excess of apostrophes. Makes and models of cars do not need an apostrophe to warn of an impending ‘s’ when plural.
You can get a 2005 or 2006 Nissan Frontier with a manual for around $10 or $12k around Houston with about 50k on the clock. Not sure about where you are, but the crew cab frontiers are better than the new Tacoma’s in my opinion, and they don’t have that Toyota price premium on them.
If you want really cheap then definitely go Isuzu Trooper or Rodeo. They are orphans so you can get them for nothing, and parts and service is cheap for them and both were available with manual transmissions. What you save buying them can keep them running for years. I have a ’98 Rodeo with over 220k on it. They are also easy to work on if you are a do-it yourself kind of person and their abundance means plenty of junk yard parts and upgrades are available cheap, and many mechanics have experience working on them. Just avoid any from the rustbelt. Get one from down south and then you won’t have to worry about any rust problems. An added bonus is they have excelent visibility too. Big windows and easy to see out of for your outdoor adventures. Only downside is the heater, if you aren’t sitting in the front seat you better bring a blanket as the hot air gets overpowered in freezing temperatures before it can reach the back seates.
How about a landcruiser or a LX470? You can get a 1998-2002 model with about 100k miles
These are very durable if cared for and lack the RR dbag factor. The interior will feel dated but the auto tranny is very well-built
xTerra? FJ Cruiser?
I was thinking of the these also. Also an older 4Runner or Pathfinder would fit the bill.
The Element drives like a bus? I haven’t driven an Escape, so I can’t compare the two, but I’ve been happy with my Element. Fold the seats up and I can roll my mountain bike in without removing a wheel, and the floor is rubber so I don’t care if it gets muddy. Plus the Honda 5-speed has a nice feel to it. I wouldn’t be so fast to dismiss the Element.
Don’t be so quick to dismiss the importance of mpg either. My wife and I both bike to work, but we still put about 10K a year on each of our cars.
That said, I really like Wranglers. Assuming your other car is reliable and comfortable, I’d go for the Wrangler. Haven’t owned one, but I’ve rented and borrowed them on a few occasions, and really enjoyed them. But I don’t think I’d want to do more than 100 miles in one.
I’m fairly certain I’ve heard Click and Clack recommend the Element on more than one occasion.
Consider the source: A Spec-Miata racer is gonna feel more connected to the road in an Escape compared to an Element.
On seating position alone, now that I think about it. So I wasn’t surprised when she said no to the Element after throwing one curve at it.
I cut my teeth on Suburbans and Econolines, compared to those the Element feels like a Miata! But yes, the upright seating does remind me of those old-school haulers, that’s part of the Element’s appeal for me. And the fact that it can squeeze into a Civic-sized parking spot.
As a Element owner I can say it does not drive like a bus and is quite pleasant on long trips, not sporty but pleasant. Also as a fellow cyclist and MTB racer there is nothing in its class or classes above that can hold a fully set-up 29″ MTB in the back without removing wheels or seat and get 25mpg all day. And it can be had with a stick. If you want a camper like the jeep pic check this out.
http://www.ursaminorvehicles.com/camper.htm
Another vote for the Element. I have two of the things for my teenagers to use, one an auto and one a manual. Both have been dead reliable, haul an incredible amount of stuff, and as a cycling enthusiast myself, are more usable than any other vehicle on the road. Bikes fit in easily and without the need to remove the front wheel. I don’t own a dog, but those that do on the Element forums are positively ecstatic about them as canine carriers. The plastic floors and vinyl seats are perfect for muddy, sweaty people. Just don’t hose them out: that’s a myth perpetuated by salespeople that don’t ever bother to look in the user manual. Honda says absolutely no. Just sweep it out and wipe it with a damp cloth, or use a leaf blower.
It also definitely does NOT “drive like a bus”. It’s quite peppy and surprisingly nimble with a good small turn radius. It also has a lower center of gravity compared to SUVS, so you don’t get that tippy feeling going through curves. The ride is a little busy, particularly for passengers, because of the short wheel base. Expect about 20 MPG around town, with 24 or so on the highway. The blocky shape doesn’t help aerodynamically.
I drive an 03 Mazda Tribute with 2.0 Zetec mated to a 5 speed manual. It was built in Kansas City along side of the Escape. So, the two should be similar. To me sporty is car that you have to climb up from to get out. The Escape is tall and boxy, not sporty.
While shopping for a CUV this summer I test drove an Element with an auto. While the rear hatch opening is about 8 inches narrower than the 48″ on the Escape/Tribute, I like the fold down tailgate that Honda provides. The rear seats are easy to remove on the Element, which gives a good 5 feet of floor space behind the front seats versus 4 feet for the Escape/Tribute.
On the test drive, I didn’t notice much difference between the 3,400 lb Element versus my 3,100 lb Tribute in the curves. What I did notice was the 2.4L Honda V Tec engine was much smoother than my old 2.0 Zetec. The Zetec is buzzy. Also, the Honda interior has useful storage nooks everywhere. The front seats are more comfortable, too.
The problem was and is that the Element holds its value. Around here, they average around 7 to $8k for a cheap one with about 90K on the speedo. My Tribute was $3900. It was one of about four CUV’s on Craigslist with a manual transmission, where the ratio of vehicles with auto versus row your own gears is about 15 or 20 to 1.
The 18 to 19 mpg that I’ve been getting in town is a disappointment, as is the 24 to 25 mpg while cruising at 70.
Didn’t realize the Escape had a 48″ hatch, that’s impressive. Totally agree about the Honda Vtec, it’s very smooth with good power, dead silent at idle and no thrashing at high rpms. 40,000 trouble free miles so far.
It definitely is. The V-Tec is much more refined and makes better power.
I’m going to throw up love for the used Suburban/Tahoe and add the Chevrolet Avalanche to the mix. Engine and tranny combination are very well matched, changed the tranny fluid every 50K miles, and the coolant when it starts to look icky and these trucks will run for freakin’ ever. The Avalanche is an amazing Swiss Army knife of a vehicle, and a non-plastic laden version became available starting in 2003. Fuel economy be damned.
Also, several years ago Consumer Reports ran 34 different pickup trucks and SUVs through an offroad course and other offroad tortures like river crossings. The number one vehicle was the Toyota Tacoma regular cab TRD off-road. Not a shock considering the pickup is built as an off-roader from the ground up. Number two was, and to CU’s admitted shock, the Chevrolet Avalanche, that could go anywhere the Tacoma and Jeep could go, and the only reason it came in second was its size created some limitations. Not a fan of CU BUT I have off-roaded an Avalanche (and many other utes) on more than one occasion and I have to agree with CU’s evaluation. The Avalanche in stock form is a stunningly capable off-road vehicle with good ground clearance. Your dirty gear can sit in the bed, the back seat is the size of a couch, and when you arrive at your destination you have not been beaten to death.
I love Avalanches. I wish GM would make a 5/8 scale version though. I have no reasonable use for a pickup that big. If you could make it the same size as the 2nd gen Dodge Dakota, that would be about perfect.
Good choice, Holden!
My vote is a raised 96 to 03 extended cab Tacoma with 2.7L and five speed manual, if you can find one without 4WD. With 4WD you need to keep it under 70 mph to squeeze out 20 mpg on the highway.
how about a saab wagon will hold a ton of stuff inside and comes with a roof rack, get a good used one they are cheap and come with a stick. Also they last for ever and they sink like a stone on the used car market great for value.
I will advocate for a LR Disco II. I had a Gen 1 and a Gen 2 and put a combined 90K on both and had *zero* issues with either. Not zero, as in “well, except for a tranny and the entire A/C system”, but really – nothing. They were shockingly reliable.
They are big losers in CR, JDP and elsewhere, and my sample size is small, but still. They’re rugged, tough trucks. Look underneath and check the spec on the suspension components – the rear trailing arms could have been elephant femurs.
Just make sure you have an oil refinery on your property – a DII will pull 12-14 mpg in everyday driving. And it requires premium, thankyouverymuch.
Steve, congratulations.
You wrote: “The dog is a collie and my wife and can get by fine with a hitch rack.”
I couldn’t find any collie who would marry me; much less one that can get by fine with a hitch rack.
All kidding aside, the Ford Escape is the vehicle for you.
Steve didn’t exactly write that, it was comment from a follow-up email to me. And I integrated it into the first. And this concludes today’s behind the scenes view of TTAC.
The nice thing about the Suburban suggestion is that, given the inquirer’s dislike of automatics, rebuilt examples of the 700R4 derivatives are so abundant and cheap that there really isn’t anything to worry about. I haven’t priced a 4L60E recently, but my buddy just bought an older (92) ‘burb knowing it had a dead trans. We threw it on the lift, had the old one out in about 45 minutes, bought a rebuilt one for $300, and installed it the next afternoon. Maybe four hours of labor total, something that a shop could easily accomplish in about two hours if you don’t have a lift or don’t like to get greasy.
I looooove Suburbans…
Steve – I am you too; a normal bicycle comuter, (but I like cars actually). For camping and MTB’ing trips I bought a used 2006 F150. Same gas milage as the mid sized trucks and good reliability ratings. Bikes and stuff in back, locked up under the camper shell, room for the family (super cab) in front. MPG be dambed, as I drive less than 5K a year – but the MPG is on par with most mid sized SUV’s (mid to very high teens).
Steve,
If you can tolerate something a little older the Ford Explorer was available with a MANual transmission through the 2002 model year.
I love Wranglers as well, the noise and ride isnt bad for a second car IMO. The problem is the price, they hold too good of value, so buying one used isnt really worth it unless you absolutely gotta have one. You can buy them brand new (stripped base models) and get a better “deal” overall.
Oh, I almost forgot… I used to have a 1992 F150 with the straight 6 and a manual trans… that thing had over 250k miles on it and drove like new. What a great truck, if you can find one. Not sure when they stopped offering sticks in the F150s, but maybe a work truck edition??
I also can’t believe they didn’t bring up the simple answer. Get exactly what you want, but in a different generation.
For under $15K, you can buy a CJ or an FJ40 that some off-roader has gone nuts on. They will have Danas and shocks and fat new tires and be in cherry condition. You can even get a really nice V8 swap. For that money you can buy one that’s seriously nice (although FJs can get even more expensive), and fits whatever your style is.
There really aren’t many vehicles that are as enjoyable a Jeep or an FJ, for just tooling around. If you find one that has seen someone else put in the money, my guess is that they will be at least as reliable as any modern car, and will be way more fun for what you have in mind.
Quick search of craigslist:
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/2053785505.html
I mean, look at that. It’s at *least* as cool as Rubicon. And there are a ton more like them out there, in all different colors and degrees of off-roadiness. All you have to do is hang on craigslist a week or two, be prepared to drive out to the boons, and you can find one that has been someone’s baby, and is in great shape to take home.
Thanks, Sajeev. Yes, I am a spec-Miata & Lemons racer. I own the 3 Miata’s (race car, daily driver, parts car). I have owned; Toyota Tacoma and Tacoma TRD, Chevy truck step side, GMC V-8 extended cab truck, 01 GMC 1500hd 4-Door, 1995 GMC 454 1-ton Dually Crew Cab and an last truck was an 01 Ford 7.3 Turbo Dually Crew Cab, I put a 944E turbo on 7.3 too. Dually’s are not practical for traveling and every day driving, they love stop at every gas station too. I love my Miata but it’s not practical with owning a hunting dog. Plus he throws up in it.
My favorite and best Truck, I have ever own was my GMC 1500HD 4-Door. With kids, two hunting dogs (over 65lbs) and 32’ travel trailer, it was perfect and did everything I needed. I no longer have kids and two hunting dogs. It’s just me and one dog. I have never owned an SUV. The reason I looked into an SUV, I wanted something, I can enjoy driving, gets great gas mileage, I can pull a pop-up camper, put a kayak or bike on top, camping gear inside w/ my dog and just go. Since people like to steal things out of beds of trucks, I don’t have to worry, with everything inside. The escape so far has been perfect for what I want. Smooth ride, great handling, and did I tell you, my dog sleeps while traveling…It’s nice to get somewhere and he is rested, not tired and cranky!
P.S. Sajeev thought, I should mention what an amazing hunk of man he is too….
Oh yeah, like you’d let me put words in your mouth! But you’re very welcome. :)
As much as you’ve hated your Subarus, an Outback is the right car. My brother has the XT (turbo 5MT) and it is simply an awesome utility vehicle. The interior quality isn’t the best, but it always gets where he wants to go and the interior just swallows up everything. The AWD is far superior than what you’ll find in a transverse drivetrain CUV* like the element, CRV, or escape. You’ll find a ton of 2005ish models for your price range.
* Some, like the Rav4, have a center transfer lock that can always send power to the rear wheels up until 25mph instead of relying on the computer.
May I suggest a Vanaru (see vanaru.com)?
You’re a tough customer but a you could probably find a base model 2007 Jeep Wrangler for 12 to $15,000. Then add ARB Air Lockers front and rear and you’ve got your own Rubicon (minus those expensive stickers) for thousands less.
I know the person asking the question doesn’t want an automatic, and some great suggestions have been tossed out. I’ll toss out one – 2005 or 2006 Saturn Relay 3 AWD. Ya the GM 3.5 is gutless and as a minivan it is just OK (you can do worse, Kia Sedona, hello).
On the other hand you get AWD for going through the mud, acceptable fuel economy and the engine/tranny is pretty darn near indestructible. The other great part, do some hard looking around you could buy one for around $8K with lots of life still left in it. They didn’t hold their value for squat – any GM dealer will service and most parts with the Montana, Terraza and Uplander are interchangeable.
I’m also going to recommend a previous generation (pre-2007) Jeep Wrangler Unlimited. An ’04 should be within your price range, and the ’04 has the bulletproof NV3550 transmission, which is a tougher unit than the MB gearbox they replaced it with. The 4.0L engine is indestructable and the Unlimteds all come with rear disc brakes and a Dana 44 rear axle.
While a Rubicon would certainly be nice, people underestimate the capability of a stock Wrangler. My ’02 Sahara with a simple factory LSD in the rear axle has never ceased to amaze me, and that’s coming from a guy that owns an ’06 Rubicon Unlimited as well.
I’d look into the current-gen Grand Vitara. Those with the 2.7L V6 are a bit low on grunt, but it is a true SUV and overall a good one. It is also far less ubiquitous than the Escape- if that matters to you at all. You should be able to get a low miles ’06-’08 4×4 manual-equipped example for a few grand under $15K.
Heck, if you can forgo the 4WD, a new manual Grand Vitara can be had around $17,500.
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Also, with it being TTAC Korea Week, it might be worth mentioning that the last-gen Kia Sorento was available with a manual transmission.
Oh, man, those EarthRoamers (pictured Jeep) are awesome! The huge Ford F-450 based ones even more so — granite and marble interiors, extended off-the-grid capabilities, solar power, you name it. Very cool vehicles. Built in Colorado. Sadly the company hasn’t done so well in the new economy.
Sorry, not exactly on-topic.