John writes:
I need a different vehicle. I need something that is better suited for towing my racecar than a Sentra. I also need it to be able to hold 4 people comfortably. My kids are getting too big for to be contained in the back of a compact car. So any vehicle I get will probably be a 4door pickup or large SUV. I have thought about a F250, a Navigator, or the compromise between the two: the 80’s Bronco.
My problem is I’ve never owned anything other than compact cars. I’ve never had a reason to own a tow vehicle until now. Can you educate me on requirements of tow vehicles? Is an automatic acceptable? Should I add/upgrade any components like a trans cooler or brakes?
Please hook me up like a tow truck.
Steve Answers:
The first thing I can tell you is that ‘extremism’ sucks gas when it comes to towing. You now need more space and towing capacity. Not 584 pounds of torque and 13 mpg for a 2000 pound vehicle. So why don’t you…
Buy a Panther! This can be the cheap solution if it comes with the right towing package. ‘Stuff’ will have to fit in the trunk. One caveat.. I wouldn’t venture down this path unless your trailer already has brakes.
Buy a Suburban! These are a bit more pricey than the Panthers. You get more ‘stuff’ space and a more maintenance friendly vehicle. All GM and Ford full-sized SUV’s are generally excellent products. Do not buy a Durango. They are cheap for a reason.
Buy an Explorer! Cheaper than the Suburban ilk and arguably all the towing and space you will ever need. But note that a standard Explorer won’t cut it. You need one with a towing package.
Buy a RWD minivan! The Astro, Aerostar and MPV can handle your tow needs. These are cheap but it’s hard to find one that isn’t in a near junk state. In the case of the MPV make sure it had a recent tranny replacement.
Then there’s my favorite… a small truck… but not for you. I would focus on the ‘cheap’ side of it and buy a full-sized American truck. You know. The ones that are paraded as the vehicles to own in the ‘Millionaire Next Door Series’. Coincidentally, these are also quickly becoming the the leading repo vehicle for title pawn companies. Is it a rich man’s ride? Is it a poor man’s ride? Who knows? I would go and buy an older truck with the guidance of either a skilled mechanic or a skilled car buyer and enjoy the ride.
Sajeev Answers:
Here’s the thing, John’s being coy: which won’t work if you are a friend of mine. As the Number 10 on our list of engineering feats it’s clear that this nice guy is slightly mental. Not in a bad way, he merely personifies the sheer stupidity and uncommon excellence found in a LeMons race. And now he’s wised up to the fact that a Nissan Sentra is not a good support vehicle for a race team.
John needs a vehicle that’ll be the most reliable member of his team (sorry, inside joke) a family hauler and transport for his (salvage sale) crotch rocket in a pinch. Steve is on the right track, and I recommend the same: the lightest duty (but full-size) Crew Cab truck you can find with a base V8. Avoid tacky upgrades from Harley-Davidson, King Ranch, Lucchese, etc for obvious reasons. Buy the oldest version of the body style in question, over five years old is a good place to start. Aside from (maybe) a bigger tranny cooler and more aggressive brake pads, these rigs are set up for your level of towing and family needs: beefy automatics, rigid frames, big brakes and a reasonable number of safety/comfort/convenience features compared to your average passenger car. I’m not gonna pick a brand, but GM and Ford still rule the roost in Texas for several good reasons.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder.
I suggest you aquaint yourself to the RWD Previas. They are rated to tow 3000+ lbs. While Usually automatic, Manual ones can be found, though(bizzarely) they are more expensive. Probably the Most reliable Minivan ever. From they time when Toyota knew how to build a world-class vehicle.
I have one suggestion that won’t be loved – Honda Ridgeline.
Let’s play devil’s advocate:
– reliable (it’s a Honda, I don’t see the transmission thing being an issue as long as fluid is changed often),
– well made and will age well (let’s say fewer issues than compare US truck over same period of time)
– safe (airbags, stability control),
– Pilot-like rear seat (room for kiddies)
– relatively small, compared to an F-150 (good for someone driving compacts all his life)
– drives like a Pilot and therefore more car-like than other suggestions
– has a nifty safe trunk feature for “stuff”/track tools
– AWD = win in winter (yes, I know about winter tires, blah, blah)
– There is no real advantage in MPG with the V6 (being honest here, figure 17 in town and 21 highway (disclaimer: I own an MDX w/ similar chassis/engine))
– Should manage with a 2500# Integra and a 2000# trailer
*Flame suit on*
Opinions?
Note: original letter says nothing about a budget. Used Ridgelines can be had around $16k, I think.
I agree, but why not a Pilot?
@Hraefn
That would work too, but mostly because John mentioned a 4-door pickup. It would probably also be easier to load the Ridgeline with tires, jacks, tools and such and not worry about killing the interior. On the other hand, those would be more secure in an SUV.
My 09 FWD Sedona is tow-rated at 3500 lbs, and is much more reliable than a RWD Astro or Aerostar. I got it 1-yr used for $17k.
I towed a 5×8 U-Haul across the country this summer, and while you could feel the load during acceleration, the braking was phenomenal. We probably had a total road weight of 7300 lbs including 7 people and all the gear in the trailer.
But if you hate minivans, move along.
There was no mention of price or region of the country. It might help to know some of that, too.
If we’re discussing cheap trucking, I’d second the suggestion for an old Astro. In this part of the rustbelt, they are not quite as plentiful as cockroaches, but damned near. I’m suspicious of the Aerostar. Everyone, I mean EVERYONE I met with an Aerostar had massive issues with it.
I’d also suggest a Dodge Dakota with lockable cap. 4×2 or 4×4, your choice, depends upon your weather. Get the club cab. In standard V6 form it can easily haul 3500 lbs., no problem. Fuel mileage isn’t bad either, and you can get them pretty cheap. They’re not so huge so that you would feel like you’re piloting the Andrea Doria in the parking lot, either.
In reply to geozinger:
I have to speak up for the Areostar here. If you need a budget vehicle for hauling I would recommend it. We put 250k on our Aerostar over the 12 years we owned it. Taught 4 of our 5 sons to drive in it and the only work we ever needed to do other than change the fluids was one water pump Power steering pump and a set of tie rod ends. none of these parts cost over $100, and were easy to replace. Granted when we traded it in the fuel pump was starting to go out and the gas gauge was off. But the seats were still bearable to ride in and it never left us stranded.
To the subject at hand I would recommend a used forest service truck or SUV. Each of these vehicles has been well maintained and will meet your tow needs although if you are in any kind of hill country always add an upgraded Tranny cooler. Inexpensive and just the basics as far as a vehicle goes although I personally shy away form the V8 Dakotas and Durangos. Why settle for Full size Fuel mileage without the full size vehicle. Personally I would lean towards an Explorer with a stick. They are rare but they are out there. Solid frame and big enough to haul your crew and your gear while still fitting into parking spaces.
@joe: I can understand your defense of the Aerostar; I don’t doubt your experience was good. My own personal experiences with them were less than good. OTOH, I have a 15 year old J-body as a daily driver, (runs well, no one believes me) so maybe not all the stereotypes are correct.
I also should have noted that the Dakota I had was a 1995 V6 model, it could easily tow 3500 lbs. with the bumper hitch. I forget what it would tow with a proper hitch, but it was pretty decent amount of weight. I never had to tap that capability, I was mostly hauling around a lawn tractor with it.
A buddy of mine and I used to tow our Solo 1 Dodge Omni on a two wheel dolly with his then 13 year old Chevy C-10 pickup truck, 250 CID straight six and three on the tree. Put a locking cap on it, shoved all of our spares in the bed, and wandered our way throughout big chunks of the midwest. We weren’t going to get there real fast, but it got the job done.
Any mid-sized truck with a V6 and four doors should do, or a V8 if you go with the Colorado/Canyon.
Look for a Suzuki Equator assuming you have a nearby dealer. They’re built by Nissan but sold by Suzuki, so parts should never be in short supply. They come in the aforementioned configuration and can two 6300 pounds with a long bed. It’ll have crappy resale value, but if you’re going to use it for race car duty you shouldn’t be looking at that.
Or you could be TTAC’s test mule for the new F150 engines. Your choice.
Is the above Integra always going to be used with a tow dolly, or do you plan to upgrade?
How much stuff do you plan to haul to the track, and how long is your average tow? Over what terrain?
I’ve been towing my race car on an open deck trailer for the last 5 years, and I know I’ll probably bite the bullet on an enclosed one day.
I’m currently towing an RX7 on an open deck trailer with a GMC Yukon 5.7L 4×4, and it’s just about right. Not too big and not too small for my needs. But, with an enclosed I’d want a bigger truck.
A lot of the trucks being recommended would be too small from my experience, but an F250 etc. would be overkill, unless the price is right.
Keep in mind the GVWR includes EVERYTHING. Truck, trailer, what’s on the trailer, passengers, tools, equipment etc. Trust me, you will bring every tool, set of spare wheels, gas etc. you can stuff in the truck to the track. I figure my total rig has been brushing 12,000lbs some runs. With a good weight distributing hitch and trailer brakes on both axles (both musts) I’ve had no issues towing, and the whole rig sits level.
I know two people who tow with Ridgelines. One puts his BMW 2002 on to an open deck trailer and the nose of the Accord-amino points to the sky. The other person tows a Formula Ford.
As for pickup vs SUV, if you have an open trailer, I strongly vote SUV. (Note, that could also be a fully size van like an Econoline, for example.) I’ve towed with pickups and SUVs. With the open trailer, the SUV gives you a secure, dry area to put your tools and spares. Great for at the track, and, when you get home late and night from a long day at the track, you will not want to spend hours unloading your rig. With the SUV, I pull into the driveway, lock it up and unload as convenient over the course of the week. With the pickup, I had to unload right away.
The one upside to the pickup is taller objects or oily/messy things can be put in the bed.
My old Yukon is dieing (got it cheap at auction 4 years ago, have driven the wheels off it towing, moving, renovating a house etc.. Steve Lang would be proud) and will need to be replaced in the spring. It’s reached the point of needing more small repairs then it is worth (leaking diff, leaking rad, blown oil cooler, leaking transmission cooler and will need body work to pass it’s inspection in April.)
I’ve been tormented on what to get for my next tow vehicle, as I see advantages to both the SUV and the pickup (which is also better for yard work requirements) so I’ve personally 95% landed on both and have started hunting for a good deal on good Chevrolet Avalanche.
*Bonus: Note that for maximum towing safety and capacity, you should be running higher load rated LT tires. Many people, and manufacturers will put P rates tires on the truck since the are cheaper and have a softer ride. Upgrade to the properly load rated tires.
How about a Diesel Ford Excursion? Then you could even get the kids to collect used veg oil (and motor oil!) as a fuel supplement.
The Gross Combined Weight rating includes vehicle, payload and trailer.
The Gross Vehicle Weight Rating includes vehicle and payload.
edit … since others beat me to the punch with much better info, let me just share this link:
http://www.arveeclub.com/forum/
There are several threads on towing and tow vehicles. I found them helpful.
Now THAT is what a range extended hybrid should look like- like towing a motorcycle. A small engine, connected to a hitch, connected to the ground via CVT and fifth wheel. Fuel capacity should be about five gallons, and power about 35 hp. Plug that into your hitch before a trip, have it electronically connected to the throttle, and off you go. Electric power will still be the primary means of accelerating & climbing hills, but this will help out, as well as acting as your sustainer motor. If your battery is dead, the little motor runs flat out all the time and your front wheels go into regen.
The answer – 2 cars
Old Grand Cherokee with 4.0 V6 – use it to get to races etc – Cheap, reliable and plenty around
Keep a compact / midsize for day to day use – You’ll miss it when gas prices spike again*
I’ve seen several FWD minivans towing racecar in an open trailer (Mercury Villager) and a guy who has an Odyssey pulling a fully enclosed aluminum trailer with a Noble M400 inside. I’d look into an Odyssey b/c they are very reliable and tow pretty darn well. After seeing one towing the latter trailer – it does have a weight distributing hitch on it and a transmission cooler – it can easily handle your LeMons car on a tow dolly or even an open trailer. I’ve been towing an open trailer w/ racecar on it for 5 years now. I have a newer 1/2 truck b/c I took over someone’s great lease deal.
a. HUMMER.
b. Jeep Liberty CRD.
V6 Tacoma with 6MT, crew cab, and bed cap. Get crossbars mounted on the cap for add’l storage in a Thule or Yakima box. Rated for 6500lbs* towing with tow package, room for 4 adults, enough of a bed to fit your LeMons stuffs. The wheelbase will be sufficiently long to help prevent the tail from wagging the dog. They also hold their value like crazy.
* Gives you a good factor of safety with what you’ll actually be towing.
The only problem is that a Tacoma of this spec costs as much, gets the same mileage and is less capable than a fullsize truck.
GMC Yukon with tow package. Might be a little crappy on gas mileage, but you can tow all day long.
lets get wild and suggest a late 80s Vanagon with a WRX motor conversion
Crew cab Toyota Tacoma with either the 3.4 V6, or the newer style with the 4.0 V6. Both will have ample towing and room for 4 or 5 in a pinch inside.
If any of your growing kids show signs of being tall, let them approve the rear seat of any double-cab pickup–even the big ones. There just isn’t that much room there, and the leg/knee room is often acquired at the cost of an almost upright seat back. VERY uncomfortable.
I don’t know much about racing rules, but would it work to shift to racing a car that is also street legal? You could just put a tow hitch on it and get one of those little trailers to haul your wheels and tools.
More than one way to skin a cat.
Ford S/Crew. If you have the budget look at 2009 or newer. With the 6 speed it gets decent mileage for such a large vehicle, they’re as plentiful as chips, a good used one won’t be hard to find, cheap to fix and they’re huge inside. I’d probably try for the 5.4 instead of the 4.6 but your choice. Ford shoved a ton of them out the door and the value shouldn’t hold up too well for the used ones when they’re giving such deals on the new ones.
First generation Tundra. The 4.7 V-8 with tow package is rated for about 7000lb. I have one and its just a bit more nimble than a Ram/F-150/Sierra/Silverado. Still, its a long way from a compact car. Without a trailer I can get in the low 20’s on the highway, but city mileage is not good. Depending upon part of the country, they may be rare and expensive or plentiful and not so dear.
ECONOLINE or full-size van!
But then you look like a creeper! But plenty of room for “friends”!
So, full-size domestic pickup truck then! You can wear a cowboy hat without shame!
In the same boat! In the (winter discounted) market for a 25ish foot sailboat…
When I went from driving compacts (Hondas) to needing something to tow my 16′ boat (approx total weight: 2,000lbs) the driving dynamics and fuel mileage were a shocker. My first attempt was an Iszuz Rodeo, V6, manual – lasted all of 8 months before I could no longer stand its ill handling and gas guzzling nature. The truth is SUVs don’t have much room in the back unless you fold down the seats and don’t give a darn about ruining your carpet. 2nd attempt was a Ford Ranger Extra Cab, V6, auto – this was much better but its mileage-to-power ratio was horrible, 14 mpg and no acceleration at highway speeds, thus merging was mirror-watching, teeth-clinched, sweaty-palms nightmare. I finally settled on Dodge Dakota Quad Cab, V8, auto. Enough room in the rear seat of kids (under 14), plenty of useable bed space, the same 13 mpg as a V6 but now I had useable power. Now, if your really smart you’ll get a diesel, my buddy just got a full size Ram, it gets 24 mpg with no load and around 18 towing a similar sized boat. Tons of room in the back seats even for adults, plus a full size bed. Trust me a 4-door pickup is way more versatile then any SUV. Take note of the mpg differences between the V6 and V8, you’ll likely find the V8 is only 2-4 mpg “worst” on paper but on the road the difference will be nearly ZERO since you have to flog the V6 while the V8 should cruise effortlessly. Still the best towing choice is a turbo diesel (+ cpu chip upgrade if want to tinker).
Integra race cars for copious amounts of win! I don’t have any input for you though, mine gets to the track behind my father’s F-250. It’s really the best value in amateur motor sports: he owns it, insures it, maintains it and I use it to tow my cars.
Since 80s Broncos were mentioned and not yet commented on, I thought I’d add something on that subject.
I have looked into towing for my 86 as a future project, and generally it is not recommended to do alot of towing with an FSB. They have a shorter wheelbase than the trucks, and generally are just not designed with alot of towing in mind. However, there are some things you can do if you do want to tow with a Bronco.
First, you will want to boost the braking power, which you can do by swapping 1-ton brake components in. Should be fairly easy, since the F-350 is the same platform. Also, AOD transmissions in Broncos can be a little weak in general, and towing does not help this any. Definitely go for a tranny cooler to help your big horse out. Lastly, you could always try an add a leaf to the rear to help the back from getting loaded down, although this isn’t as important as the other two pieces.
That all being said, a Bronco is some of the best motoring money can buy. You get the comfort of a big truck, and room for 5-6 people. Plus, riding in the back with the top off is pure automotive bliss. If you want to ride topless on the streets, you might want to stick with 78-91 models though, the 92-96 are technically not legally removable on road due to the rear belts and third brake light.
Sounds like you’re not afraid of a wrench, so I’d say go find yourself a nice cheap Bronco and build yourself the most fun tow rig out there. And make someone else drive so you can ride in the fun seat…
Charger RT
With load leveling, can tow 3,800 lbs
Can comfortably carry 4 adults
and when not towing, can be a blast to drive
thanks guys. maybe i should clarify, i don’t date men, and i don’t drive GM. I’ve always had a compact because i haven’t needed anything else. Now i need something that will confine a 4 year old and a 6 year old far enough apart that they cant poke each other and can not kick my seat back. from what people are suggesting, i may just satisfy my joy gland by buying the 80s Big Bronco. I want one with the ever elusive 300 straight 6 and manual transmission. I’ll just Rhino line the interior (both kid proofing and weather proofing) for when i remove the top and use as a pickup
Just make sure its a 1986 model, as that was the first year (I think) of Port EFI. The 300 wasn’t especially peppy until EEC-IV worked its magic on it.
i was my understanding the 300 suffered from smog equipment with the EFI, but the 302 & 351 improved.
What’s the story on your race car man?
Oh noes.
Two whole children. Wow. God forbid they sit in the back of a newish Sentra.
This is a troll post right? Hundreds of thousands of children survived just fine riding around in the back of 70s/80s Honda/Yota/Datsun/whatever 2 doors. Let alone the luxurious 4-doors.
Quick! Buy a tank! Or a YuSuburbaHoe! Your little darlings are far too precious for anything less than complete protection from all of us.
Vomit.
@porschespeed: are you saying that because you didn’t see his tow/loading needs for a race team? The troll comment makes me think you didn’t read my answer, as trolls tend to not share everything about their lives to the people publishing their query.
Sajeev,
I did see his needs. They indicate that he would get along just fine with what we did in the 70s.
While I know the current fashion is to recommend an F-550 for towing a coupla MX bikes, I also know that I can readily tow a Bobcat(and trailer) with an 82 Civic S.
Sure, it’d be easier with a Ram 3500 Cummins 5 speed, but the Civic will still get it done.
If you can fit all you kids and stuff in a Sentra, keep the Sentra, throw in a transmission cooler and get a well-balanced trailer with brakes.
If your kids are suffering for space (and in a compact car, no matter what people say, they will be, especially on long drives) consider something with more cargo space. The Sentra is pretty good, but the Versa is better, believe it or not. The Mazda5 and Kia Rondo are better still.
The problem with towing is that so few companies even allow towing with the North American models, despite the same car in Europe being able to tow quite a bit more. Take the Mazda5, for example: in North America, the manual reads “Do not tow with your Mazda”** while in Europe you have a 600kg unbraked trailer limit, and a 1600kg braked limit (which is enough to handle your racer).
Again, keep the Sentra if it still “fits” your and get a tranny cooler and a trailer with trailer brakes. If not, get something that works well for you (it doesn’t need to be a BoF truck) and againm trailer brakes and a tranny cooler.
** I used to own a Protege5. I always found that phrasing funny. I’m a sad man that way.
This is not a troll post. i legitimately need a vehicle better suited for towing as evident in the pics. as for people putting kids in the back of a 70s/80s Honda good for them, but it’s the 10s and Texas just passed a law requiring kids to be in car seats until they are 8. i have 90k miles on my 08 Sentra, so i drive a lot. put a 8 y/o in a car seat behind someone who is 6’1″ and take a 6 hour road trip. I may subject myself to automotive torture with my race car, but I want to relax in my daily.
as for the race car, it was a 96 Integra GSR built for the 24 Hours of LeMons. For details on it: http://www
[vimeo 15691546 w=640 h=360]
I already have a replacement car, an 84 CRX. Vague build details are here: http://www.racing.lmwrealty.com
As far as I can tell, it may be an automotive first when my plans for it come to fruition. Sajeev will have the exclusive story; if I ever get teammates that stick it out, help, and pay up.
Following the normal racing enthusiast model, I have a race car and the basic fabrication tools. I am buying a house this month with a 2 car garage because apartment life doesn’t work well with late night welding. I have been borrowing a tow dolly from a friend, or renting a trailer as needed. I have a lifetime warranty on my Sentra, but Nissan may not honor it much longer if any more of these photos leak out. So, a tow vehicle is next on my list; followed by my own trailer. Then maybe a camper when I realize sleeping in my Bronco/Navigator/Econoline isn’t as comfortable as the Sentra (don’t laugh, but a full size inflatable mattress fits perfectly in the trunk with the back seats folded flat and the engine A/C running all night).
John
Then maybe a camper when I realize sleeping in my Bronco/Navigator/Econoline isn’t as comfortable as the Sentra (don’t laugh, but a full size inflatable mattress fits perfectly in the trunk with the back seats folded flat and the engine A/C running all night).
Sorry, I’m laughing because I forgot about living arrangements at LeMons. So I highly recommend a used hi-top conversion van for you. Your kids will love it. Use the crotch rocket to go to work.
For my at the track camping, I use my Yukon. Fold the seats down, and a queen size air mattress fits perfectly in the back. One end is touching the back seats, one end is touching the tail gate.
Big enough that me, my girlfriend and the dog can all sleep. It’s “cozy” but it works.
Also, speaking of laws and to all the people kind of ignoring the North American tow ratings (it’s true, ratings are much higher in Europe) I have heard stories on a number of racing forums about local law enforcement pulling people over and then ticketing them if they were violating the GVWR of their vehicle. Not common, but I’ve heard of it enough to be a concern. Race cars on the road draw attention as it is. You probably don’t want to be using a small car to tow something that looks like it has no business towing, or the law will most likely want to talk to you. But, your local laws will vary.
Also, another point, and this is also a huge your local laws will vary, I know around where I live (eastern Canada) if the wheels of a vehicle are touching the ground while being towed, that vehicle has to be registered and insured. It appears to only be enforced locally when the police are in a bad mood, but, in some regions a race car (which is almost never insured, possibly registered) could be illegal to tow on a dolly with an axel rolling on the ground. That will require at least an open trailer, which will also greatly increase your tongue weight and required tow rating.
@John: I have to admire your tenacity. Kids are what got me out of racing, so the fact that you’re willing to still do this after having kids says a lot about your character. Good for you. And yes, back in the 90’s we started to have these mandatory laws that the kids be encapsulated in their very own survival chair, too. Fortunately for me, we followed that law to the letter and my now adult daughter survived an accident with absolutely no injuries. Me, not so much.
Additionally I appreciate the fact that you don’t buy more vehicle than you really need, I see all kinds of soccer moms driving around in Expeditions and I wonder why that is. (I meant to post this here, but inadvertently posted it on another reply) A buddy of mine and I used to tow our Solo 1 Dodge Omni on a two wheel dolly with his then 13 year old Chevy C-10 pickup truck, 250 CID straight six and three on the tree. Put a locking cap on it, shoved all of our spares in the bed, and wandered our way throughout big chunks of the midwest. We weren’t going to get there real fast, but it got the job done. Why would you need a 400 HP tow vehicle? Good luck on your search.
1995-2001 chevy 1500. Available v8, trans coolers, good tow rating, parts available EVERYWHERE (OEM and aftermarket)
so basic rules to follow when picking a tow vehicle:
long wheel base
big brakes
good torque
tranny cooler (pros/cons of auto vs manual in towing?)
Autos are better overall, mostly because its easier on you (in traffic) and more than durable enough if you stick with big transmissions, not transaxles.
Newer manual truck transmissions like the one in my ’98 F-150 have a light duty clutch. Mine’s only rated to tow 3,500 lbs. Stick with an automatic unless you find a heavy duty manual and, as Sajeev says, you’re OK with all that shifting.
Used Ford Flex? Lots of space, can tow a respectable amount, would still be comfortable as a daily driver, great highway car, and if you get the ecoboost, you could drop that engine into your race car, destroy the field, and then swap the engine back. :)
Used Touareg V10 TDI. Actually uses less fuel than the VR6 model of the 1st gen and have really come down nicely in price.