Jordan writes:
Dear Sajeev and Steve,
I am at the point where the little niggles my 240 wagon possesses are no longer a part of its charm. For replacement (which, in actuality I will keep it, but take it off of the daily roster,) I have decided that I want a Panther. My budget is capped at 13k, and even that is a bit rich for my tastes. I know for sure that I do not want some jacked-up P71, so I am leaning heavily toward the Grand Marquis/Town Car. Which one would be the best? Should I stay above the `03 model year? I am looking to make my move after the first of the year, so I hope my asking to make this speedy doesn’t make me seem like a jerk. Thank you in advance!
Steve Answers:
Drive. I would not cross out any particular type of Panther. I also wouldn’t spend anywhere near $13k on the decontented Panthers of the last five years. Try $5k at most for a well kept and conservatively driven 8 to 10 year old model that has been garage kept and dealer maintained. Mature folks are more apt to spend money on quality parts, and the ‘gentle Panthers’ like the Lincoln and Grand usually have owners who are shall we say, ‘cruisers’.
This along with a powertrain that will outlast everything but cockroaches and a 1st generation Lexus, is why most of those middle-aged Panthers have little wear on them. Well that and the fact that the engine and tranny were probably conceived in the Neolithic era. Are you sure you want one of these?
Well I guess it all comes down to your personal taste, and that prior owner. The Lincoln will give you luxury par excellence. The Grand Marquis will give you 60% to 85% of the Lincoln’s luxury with perhaps one or two fewer repairs over the course of years. You will also have a less floaty ride in the PrecisionTrac models.
But then again you may like a little float. Two of my favorite Steenkin’ Lincolns were floating clouds of enduring isolation. My most fond memory was a 1997 model in silver. The last year of the ‘Classic Lincoln’ design combined with outstanding reliability. My second favorite? A 1990 model with 81,000 miles that I bought for $400 in the thick of the Hurricane Katrina gas lines. I also own/finance four Grand Marquis models at the moment, all late 90’s models. At the auctions they go for between $1500 to $3000.
Sajeev is going to offer some very sound advice on the models and trim packages. So I will just leave you with this advice. Start with the owner and just drive the car.
Sajeev Answers:
Mr. Lang knows me too well. My girlfriend would be jealous, if I had one. That said, the best, “fattest” content Panther ever was the 1995-1996 Town Cars, especially the Cartiers. Well 1995 only, if you want to impress smokers with your super classy, lighted ash receptacles. Plus, they are downright gorgeous, in that neo-classic tradition of the Detroit Land Yacht. So you get one of them, fix the suspension to your sporting (by Volvo, Cop Car standards) tastes, or just replace the shocks. Shocks are important on Panthers, since they are rarely replaced. And why would they? The ride is too soft to notice their gradual degradation. But, as a new owner, you sure as hell should.
Too bad these “fat” Panthers aren’t easy to find, unless you live in Boca Raton. So go ahead and look for a newer Grand Marquis LS or Crown Victoria LX. While 2003+ models have a little better chassis with rack/pinion steering, it’s only a modest upgrade. The 1998+ models have the necessary brake and suspension upgrades, a decent enough motor (except for the 96-01 plastic intake recalled a few years back) and are super cheap to find just about anywhere.
My guess? You’ll find a 1998+ Grand Marquis LS that looks, smells and drives like new (cough, shocks, cough) for less than $8000 with very little internet searching in your area. But if you’re truly picky, the pre-Jac Nasser Town Cars are a (1998 Police Interceptor) brake/steering/suspension rebuild away from being truly impressive machines, inside and out. And much like your 240, these “fat” Panthers are, without question, the best example of the Lincoln Brand in the last 30 years.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder.
Same advice I always give:
Avoid any Panther older than the 1995 MY no matter how good the condition.
Avoid any Panther used as a LE vehicle no matter how good the condition.
Allright, I’ll bite. Why is older than ’95 bad? I ask because I recently got a friend into a low-mile (80k) senior owned ’89 Crown Vic for $1200 (nicknamed the “brown cloud” due to color, pillowy interior and floaty ride). I figured between the recently rebuilt tranny and the 5.0 Windsor, it would run for many a moon to come. So far, so good. Should we expect disaster on the horizon?
It will be interesting to see what John has to say but I can think of a few reasons. The early 4.6V8 had a few teething problems and the AOD and AOD-E automatic transmissions (1981-1995) seemed reliable enough to me but were also confused about when to down shift and why to downshift. I’ve also heard about issues with the auto climate control units but personally have no idea which years were the most affected by that. If I got my hands on an old Town Car and lived in a state like mine (New Mexico) where Albuquerque is the only place that emissions inspections happen, I’d replace the 5.0 & AOD with a built 302 and C4 auto. Likely get better fuel economy and certainly better drive-ability. But I do LOVE the looks of the 1981-1989 model.
Wasn’t ’95 or so when the new school AC freon came into usage? I suspect ’95 and up probably have OBD-II, too.
OBD-II was introduced industry-wide in 1996, I believe.
And R-12 was banned in 1994
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichlorodifluoromethane
The two main reasons I recommend people steer clear of the 1st generation Aero’s and ’92-’94 Grand Marquis is because of their lack of OBDII and the AOD-E transmission. Those are the biggies in my opinion.
Other issues to consider are:
a) A unique intake/throttle body design that makes any sort of performance upgrades difficult
b) Poor quality valve seals which become brittle and may cause excessive oil consumption (also present on ’95 and ’96 MY, unfortunately)
c) No LCM or battery saver for your interior/exterior lighting
d) Older design dash with late eighties style switchgear and 85mph speedo
e) No OE-installed secondary electric cooling fan which these car need for the AC to work properly in low air flow conditions
f) ’94 MY got the 134A but anything older has R12
There are a couple other issues, I can’t think of them off the top of my head. Of course some of this stuff won’t matter much to most people, the intake for instance. But those valve seals are a pretty big job. And the tranny is an issue not only for drive-ability but also if it ever needs replacement. Which it probably will if you have the car long enough and the guy before you didn’t do it.
YMMV.
I’m guessing this person is from the United States, so $13,000 US would buy a lot. He could wind up with a very nice 2004 Grand Marquis Ultimate that’s 85% as good as the contemporary Town Car.
In 2004 they updated the transmission shift points to help with the added heft of the hydroformed front frame. 2003 and later Panthers are very nice driving vehicles. Definitely drive smaller than they are.
2001 to 2007 model Lincoln Town Car, after the plastic intake manifold was fixed but before they Town Car left production in Wixom, MI. Signature or Signature L and above trim levels for dual exhaust. Personally I’d want to find one with heated seats but that has more to do with my climate than anything else. I also prefer the years that had the dash mounted analogue clock because I like that look. Of the aerodynamic Town Cars I actually like the 2003 and up years for the more upright grille and stand up hood ornament.
Marauders with decent mileage are going for ~$13K, with your budget I’d look there first. Then move on to a Crown Vic LX/Grand Marquis/Town Car. Test drive it, make sure everything works, the typical stuff. Like John said avoid a 4.6 equipped car from 1995 back, and if you’re not broke or a teenager (or both, like me!) avoid any P71 except maybe a pampered undercover detective’s car.
I have put 12,500 miles on my 2009 Town Car SigLim since August 27th. Color me satisfied.
In a perfect world, I would have a Cartier L, but I’ve never seen one for anything like sane money.
For me, the TC is worth the premium over the GM or CV. Better front seats, usable rear ones.
usable rear ones.
And the L wheelbase would make them all the more usable for Jack’s purposes. ;)
Actually I saw an L model for reasonable money but it was on CarMax’s website but given the rarity of L models I was amazed that CarMax managed to get their hands on one.
About 2 1/2 hours from me there’s an 2004 Signature L for CDN$17K and a hair under 100,000 kms.
May be the first and last extended WB TC I ever see.
The tradeoff for TC luxury is the probablity of having to do an expensive air suspension repair or rear coil spring conversion once you get north of 10 yrs old / 100k miles. You can avoid this and the added electronic complexity with the MGM.
You can avoid this and the added electronic complexity with the MGM.
Careful, a good bit of the Grand Marqs and Crown Victoria LXs were optioned with air suspension as well.
You are absolutely right. I had to do one of those on a 1996 GM about a year ago.
Having driven various Panthers and having put well over 140,000 miles on an old Volvo 240 wagon (RIP), be prepared to miss Volvo seats. Actually, it really doesn’t matter where you go, Panther or otherwise, you will miss the old Volvo seats. You’ll also miss the visibility, especially to the rear quarters. And you’ll miss the tight turning circle.
But, yes, eventually all 240 owners move on. Best of luck.
The best car for a 240 owner to move on to is a 940. Same rugged underpinnings, but with the rust and stupid electrical system eliminated. Infinitely superior to these useless land barges.
The love for these relics never ceases to amaze me. Every time I get stuck with one as a rental I want to stop at a pharmacy and pickup some Dramamine.
I do have a very sincere love for 940’s. But the electronics on them are from the devil.
I can’t tell you how much money I have spent on sensors, bulbs, regulators… heck the vehicle is wonderful to drive, but I can’t get the speedometers to go on half the ones I see at the auctions.
Mature folks are more apt to spend money on quality parts, and the ‘gentle Panthers’ like the Lincoln and Grand usually have owners who are shall we say, ‘cruisers’.
HEY! I resemble that remark! I’d own one of these IF they weren’t so “floaty” – the last one I rented for a business trip to Chicago years ago (2001, 9/10, 11 & 12 – don’t ask how I remember that!) scared me, as it seemed not to know or care where the lanes on the road were.
But that’s why I own an Impala!
Down here in South Florida, you can easily find low-mileage Grand Marquises as late as 2007 for a $13,000 maximum price. Must be all the old folks. Cars as old as 2003-2004 are down into the $6,000-$8,000 range. I personally would avoid any Panther car that looks like it’s seen fleet duty of any sort (police, taxi, rental, limo duty, etc.) – they’ve typically led hard lives and are often under-maintained.
I’ve never learned to like the soft, rounded post-’97 Town Cars. To me, they look like an old Jaguar Mark X gone to fat in Orson Welles proportions. I think the best-looking TCs are the ’95-’97 models, but they’re getting up there in years and random electrical/accessory problems begin to set in.
I might add that if the “little niggles (the) 240 wagon possesses are no longer a part of its charm” you’ll find that after it’s been a non-daily driver for a while it may develop the kinds of problems that happen to cars that don’t get used much. Otoh if it’s garaged and cared for like a well-loved old friend perhaps not.
I prefer the lines of the Town Car, but from what I’ve seen they’re usually quite a bit more than the Marquis models. A well-equipped Marquis get you 90% of the Town Car goodness for substantially less, and they’re also almost always “Senior Owned”.
Here’s one for all you MGM lovers:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Mercury-Grand-Marquis-/140492185934?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item20b5fca14e
Spectacular! And only 117,000 miles since new.
sweet. That thing is in great shape, but you sure don’t find “leather” that color in nature
Gosh remember when interiors came in colors that actually made you want to sit down?
A little worried about the comments re. pre-95s, but am enjoying the 1989 Panther wagon (no visibility problems there!) I purchased earlier this year. Replaced the shocks with KYBs, and it’s surprisingly easy to point and fun to drive. No one’s mentioned fuel economy or lack thereof, however — mine (usually conservatively driven) is 14 city, 17 or 18 highway, so it’s an expensive treat.
I think what we’re (or at least what I’m) referring to in reference to pre-95 models is the first of the aero/4.6 Panthers. As Dan said above, the early 4.6s had teething problems (gutless little oil burners), and the transmissions were finicky. Heaven forbid you get stuck with a ’92 that needs a new engine and you find out it has the old Windsor bellhousing!
Box models (pre ’92) have the same somewhat-finicky AOD but the bulletproof 302 Windsor.
“I think what we’re (or at least what I’m) referring to in reference to pre-95 models is the first of the aero/4.6 Panthers.”
Deifinitely steer clear of those. My dad had one and it sucked.
I bought A 08 GM THIS SUMMER FOR 14k 19k mi. fr the wife. kids in college so we will be doing many road trips. It has not disapointed . rides great and has plenty of grunt for merging /passing. one of the things you will notice if you do some wrenching is how accessable and serviceable everything is when you open the hood.
If you are on a limited budget think very carefully about buying one of these outdated, cramped-for-their-portly-dimensions barges. Gas prices are on their way up again, and at some point they will skyrocket unexpectedly as they have in the past. Right now with the 240 you are enjoying a compact-sized vehicle that is relatively easy to park and relatively fuel-efficient. Do yourself a favor and get something that doesn’t require eight spark plugs lest you find yourself cursing the Panther decision a year from now.
Uh, the guy’s Volvo 240 gets 23mpg.
My Town Car gets 21mpg in mixed driving.
Not sure the fuel efficiency gap is as massive as you think it is.
Yeah, it’s not a big difference. My previous daily driver was a `84 Delta 88/ `71 Cutlass S, so gas mileage is not a huge concern, especially now that the O/D switch has shorted out in the Volvo, rendering 4th unusable.
Makes you wonder why Ford is stopping Panther production especially since it means kissing police, taxi and limo sales goodbye. The tooling was paid off about 200 years ago, the factory is current and runs well, the CAW is not as nutso as it used to be, and the guys have got the hang of putting them together. Ford makes a ton of money on each one and could have sold them forever.
Well, for taxi use the Transit Connect beats the Panthers six ways from Sunday from a passenger perspective, and for police work the Chrysler LXs are getting pretty common.
The real reason, though, is that to meet crash, emissions and performance standards they’d have to upgrade. Those upgrades would not just increase cost on cars that have razor-thin margins to start with, they’d also add complexity to a car whose sole selling point is that it’s simple to maintain, and whose other attributes are possessed in equal measure by cars and trucks that Ford already has.
@ Psarhjinian:
Doesn’t the Towncar have the highest safety ratings of any large car in the US? As far as performance, Ford could do what GM did with the last of the B bodies, make a low tech version of their performance cars engine, specifically the Mustang 5.0 liter V8 that can get 30 miles to a gallon, then voila, you meet emissions and ‘performance’ standards. Of course, its easy for me to backseat drive for Ford Engineers.
Doesn’t the Towncar have the highest safety ratings of any large car in the US?
No, it doesn’t. The LaCrosse, Avalon and Taurus share that, followed by the LX Chryslers, the Impala and the Lucerne. The Ford anchors that list.
The Panthers make great battering rams but that’s about it as far as crashworthiness goes:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=20
Still think it’s stupid that Ford didn’t do special “Final” editions with the new engines in them.
Thanks for all the responses thus far, and a special thank you to Steve and Sajeev for posting this so quickly!
I live in Ohio, east of Cleveland to be exact, and surprisingly, there is not a lot of Panthers for sale up here. I suppose all the snowbirds have migrated south which may explain their absence here.
Why Panther? Well, I wanted something that would have a small chance of being hooned, that is RWD (a must for me, not that I have any issues with FWD, but in the snow, I want RWD,) and is roomy. I am also a fan of big cars, and gas milage is not a concern, as the 240 gets about 23 highway as it is. The P71 is a no-go for me as I want something with some amenities and no neglect. I am thinking that Grand Marquis is the way to go.
I can’t believe that I am reading a “contemporary” car blog site where readers are drooling over some ancient, bucket of rubber, gas hog. Anyone here under 80????
Sigh… Some of us (like me) love the modify-ability of the platform. Not all of us want to buy a BMW. Some of us would rather take a decent BOF RWD platform and modify it. Some of us like having a platform that is as reliable as an anvil. http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/cmps_index.php Even those of us who are but 33 yrs old. Some of us want to enjoy the last remaining BOF RWD V8 AMERICAN car remaining.
Hey, I have many years to go before I hit that magic number, but we’re talking something that is low-cost to buy, easy and cheap (relatively) to fix and is pretty rock-solid. RWD folks are hard to convince otherwise!
Yes, it is “ancient” in all the ways you state above, but considering the majority of the people who bought these, they would be well-taken care of, which is more than you could say for anything that even hints at “sporty”, plus, the other mainstream vehicles may be out of one’s price range. OR…maybe, just maybe, for some reason a person actually likes these for its RWD architecture and sense of “old school” metal!
So, yes, this IS a contemporary auto blog site, but many are enthusiasts that have a passion for certain types of vehicles if, for no other reason, than “just because”. And that is what makes horse races.
I rest my case!
Drooling? Hardly. For some of us, it’s practicality über alles.
I’m 39, I own three Porsches, I’ve spent over a half million dollars on German cars in the past decade, and I hold SCCA, NASA, and Grand-Am licenses. I’ve set track records in NASA, I’ve stood on a National Championship podium, and I won the 2007 Detroit 24 Hours of LeMons by what I believe to be the largest margin of victory ever — 49 laps.
My daily driver is a Lincoln Town Car.
Hope that helps :)
Welcome to the club Jack. It’s called getting old. Besides, it’s hard to find anywhere to open up the German metal anymore without getting a ticket. My friends laughed when we bought the Avalon for my wife, but man when taking a long straight drive, or caught in traffic, it sure is nice to be comfortable! I would imagine that the Lincoln is even more comfortable. I have spent over 200k in the last 10 years, and I thought I was crazy! or are we just doing it while we can? Old age comes fast, and I’m going to slide into the crypt almost broke. amd almost used up!
Right…practicality it is. I call myself a “car guy”. I’d love a Vette convert. Or maybe a Shelby. Sitting in the front row at the “Barrett Jackson” in Scottsdale ,and getting into a bidding war with say, Billy Gibbons or Jay Leno,that would be cool.
However getting behind the wheel of a big RWD/BOF on a cross country road trip, is a little closer to reality.
Ah yes, the last body on frame, Ford Galaxie. Too wide to fit in some parking places, and to drive down narrow streets, but they are basic, simple beasts, and look OK.
I’ve got a 2002 Grand Marquis LSE with the rear air suspension – 117k and running strong. I’ve had over 1,000 lbs of concrete, bricks, etc. in the trunk; just fire the engine up, and the rear end levels out, and drive away. Kudos to the live rear axle.
I also own a 67 Galaxie, and the interesting thing is the front shocks for both cars are the same part number.
What is so great about BOF? Chryslers are just as American as GM and Ford, and nearly every Mopar car has been unibody since 1960. This “old school” beast is unibody:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chrysler_New_Yorker_5.jpg
BOF cars can generally be made quieter than large unit-body cars, particularly in older cars. Unit bodies were supposed to save weight, but the amount of stiffening needed to make a large unit body rigid enough sometimes negates the weight advantage. BOF bodies are easier to repair too. One more thing – rust can wreck the structural integrity of a unit body, and Mopars have always been fairly rust-prone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body-on-frame#Advantages_and_disadvantages_compared_to_unibody
There’s the best summation I can find of the advantages/disadvantages. Many members of this forum feel that BOF results on a car that last longer without falling apart for those members who like to keep vehicles for many 100s of thousands of miles.
Get a BOX.
I had a box. I do not wish to subject another to salt.
I had a ’92 TC Executive (which a friend still drives) and now a 2005 Sig Ltd. Personally I would not be afraid of a 1992-95; just get the lowest mileage one you can find. You can still find them with 50K or even less on eBay if you look, and they get used car prices, not collectible prices like 90’s RWD Fleetwood Broughams do.
I used to see oil burning Panthers but not in a long time; I think time has weeded out most of the ones with weak valvetrains.
My ’92 Exec had the full analog dash and the sliding lever climate controls, less electronic crap to break. Also I think it was in the later 90’s when the window mechanisms started getting really cheap. My ’92 also had features not available in any 2000’s model like an automatic headlamp dimmer (which worked), adjustable duration for the lamps on after shut-off, and a genuine front bench seat (the newer ones fake it but everyone just leaves the armrest console down). Interior materials quality on the older ones is MUCH better.
On a 1992-97 check for a sagging drivers door (the hinge pins were a bit under sized for the job, they can be replaced but it’s not an easy task)